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Crime and Justice With Ashleigh Banfield
Accused Killer Dad Now Waging New Battle; More Damning Evidence Now Uncovered. Aired 6-8p ET
Aired September 20, 2018 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[18:00:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The paperwork that is being filed right now means that we`re going to get some answers.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They found a bag that they say contains footprints.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What the prosecution is trying to do is rule out the ability for Chris Watts to point the finger at somebody else.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A curious new piece of evidence emerges.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Evidence number 26. It`s a bag that was collected at the scene where the bodies were located.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Could this one tie a father to the murder of his family?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your mind just starts racing. You start wondering, is this a bag he wore over his feet to cover footprints?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Chris Watts still fighting prosecutors` every move.
CHRISTIAN WATTS, HUSBAND OF SHANANN WATTS, SUSPECT: This isn`t right. This has got to stop.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tonight the back and forth between the man accused of murder.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How did the bag get there if he was not involved?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And the lawyers who want a better look at his bare body.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cheek swabs. Fingerprints. Palm prints as well. Photographs of his hands.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Will Chris Watts get his way?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They want to make sure that the case is airtight.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Or given the evidence piling up against him, will it even matter?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: With three dead bodies, a woman and two children, the way that the bodies were disposed of, I mean, this is somewhat of a mini
mass murder.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This has to be a death penalty-prone case.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, HOST, HLN CRIME AND JUSTICE: Good evening, everyone. I`m Ashleigh Banfield and this is "Crime and Justice." It is hard to
imagine the very worst thing that can happen to us, the most painful event in life, the kind of seismic destruction that ripples through hundreds of
lives, can be reduced to black and white, but when it comes to murder, it is all about the black and white. Because murder trials are won and lost
based on what`s presented in documents like these.
And in the case of the Watts murders, the murder of Shanann and her two little girls, it is the kind of wording that only a lawyer could love.
These documents might just mean justice for the Watts girls. And maybe a little justice for their killer. Because each one, each one of these
documents, contains a clue as to what happened that night and whether Chris Watts was indeed their killer.
Joining me now, crime journalist Pat Lalama. Pat, the document dump continues even more today this time from the prosecutors. And a real
thumbing of their nose to Chris Watts and his defense and how much pushback they`re getting on their requests. Take me through the docs.
PAT LALAMA, GUEST HOST, HLN CRIME AND JUSTICE: Well, it`s a chess game now between prosecution and defense. And each side, you know -- it`s tug of
war, essentially. So as we do know, the defense is saying, it`s against our fourth amendment rights to have to give over any kind of swab to
anybody, oh by the way we want you to reconsider this whole leak investigation. The prosecution`s basically coming back saying, we don`t
have to answer you, good-bye. It`s as simple as that.
BANFIELD: Yes.
LALAMA: It`s going to continue. It`s just going to continue. Look, the prosecution has to -- they have to obliterate his contention that the wife
killed the children. So they`re just quietly and methodically putting their evidence together to try to prove that that is not the case.
BANFIELD: Just so fascinating to see how the prosecutors responded today. They are up on the website it went, essentially saying Chris Watts, you can
fight all you want, we`re just not responding anymore, give us your palm prints, give us your fingerprints, give us your cheek swab, and while
you`re at it, as of last night, give us your footprints in ink.
LALAMA: Right.
BANFIELD: And I`m going to get to that, more about it in a moment. Because it becomes even more fascinating. We`ve learned a lot more since
last night. This sort of bombshell request from the prosecutors. We want your barefoot print, because we found a bag that we know has a footprint on
it. We want to know if it`s yours or someone else`s. Hold that thought for a minute.
I want to bring in Joseph Scott Morgan, certified death investigator, also professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University. Joie Morgan,
every time you say something on this show, I stop and I listen. Because it`s the forensic microscopic clues that the layperson doesn`t know about
that can often trip up a killer. And tonight you`ve got yet another one of these forensic moments, forensic science issues, that could be the linchpin
in this case.
We thought of Alexa and we thought of the iPhone and we thought of all sorts of things, but we didn`t think about how blood pools in the body and
how time can tell you an incredible tale. I want to start with something that most of us don`t know. It`s livor mortis. Not River Mortis. It`s
Liver Mortis and it is what happens inside your body with your blood when you die. Can you just give me the really quick reader`s digest explanation
of what happens with livor mortis?
[18:05:05] JOSEPH SCOTT MORGAN, PROFESSOR OF FORENSIC, JACKSONVILLE STATE UNIVERSITY: Sure, Ash. Our vessels in our body are not intended to store
blood, they`re there to essentially transport blood. And what happens when we pass away, our blood will literally settle to the lowest point of
gravity. In this particular case, let`s say for instance we had somebody that was lying on their back, if we had someone that was lying on their
back for a protracted period of time, the blood would pool in that are, liquid always seeks the lowest point of gravity. And in that --
(BAD AUDIO)
BANFIELD: Do you know what, I do have a picture of that? Before I put it up I need to lead our viewers who get squeamish, I need you to know, what
we`re going to show you is actually a cadaver, this is a cadaver used in science. This was something studied at the University -- Indiana
University. And so the picture you`re seeing is of a person that seems to show exactly what you`re telling us, Joe. Can you see your monitor and
explain it?
MORGAN: Yes, absolutely, Ash, be glad to. That purple area that you`re seeing there detailed in this image is actually the settling or pooling of
blood in that particular area. Those white kind of blanched-out areas that you see there, just think about it this way. Those areas are the areas of
contact where the entire weight of the body is being essentially supported in those particular areas.
BANFIELD: Pressure.
MORGAN: Pressure points, you`re absolutely right, yes.
BANFIELD: So now, why I`m getting into this is not because it`s fascinating science, but this actually can give you a timeline, because all
of this happens, it begins to show in the first 20 to 30 minutes after you die, correct?
MORGAN: Yes, absolutely. It does. And that is one of the reasons, as a medical/legal death investigator, former medical/legal death investigator,
I`m so heavily dependent upon on Livor mortis, because it`s only gravitational dependent, it is not deep upon on environmental temperatures.
Gravity is pretty much constant everywhere in our world.
BANFIELD: OK. You call it livor mortis? I think I called it livor mortis, it is my bad.
MORGAN: No, no, no. Some people say postmortem lividity as well.
BANFIELD: Livor mortis, that is your term. Here`s where it gets extremely interesting to this case. If it begins showing up 20 to 30 minutes after
you die, it actually locks in and stops in the pattern which will be its final pattern after about eight to ten hours, is that correct, fixed at
that time?
MORGAN: Yes, people are always asking us, how do we tell time since death or postmortem interval? And the fascinating thing about this. This is a
static marker that we have, Ash. It goes out to about eight to ten hours, and then it is fixed into that specific area. The interstitial tissue
where it`s kind of bled out into the surrounding tissue. And once it`s there, it`s there. It`s not going anywhere. Unless the body is moved
prior to fixation.
BANFIELD: Ok, so now help me through. This is a little morbid, but it`s germane to the story that Chris has, according to police, told them. That
sometime around 4:00, 5:00 in the morning, he woke up, had an emotional conversation, went downstairs, came back up, saw something terrible on the
baby monitor, one of his children dead, sprawled out on the bed, saw Shanann then strangling the other baby and then went and strangled her.
So, if all this has happened around 4:00, 5:00 in the morning, we can only presume that there was a moment of breath-catching and again, all of this
is if Chris` story is true, there is a moment of breath-catching, there is a moment of planning, there is a moment of preparation of these bodies
which are now dead. And within 20 to 30 minutes the blood pooling is starting. And they are not standing up, they are lying down in some way.
Then they are loaded onto his truck. They`re in the bed of the pickup truck for at least a 45-minute drive, OK, Joe? You`re still with me,
right.
MORGAN: Yes, yes, ma`am.
BANFIELD: The camera of the neighbor saw that truck pulling out at 5:30 in the morning. 45 minutes later, if he went right to the gravesite, the
worksite, it would be quarter past 6:00. So sometime between 4:00 a.m. and quarter past 6:00, we now have these bodies lying in some formation. Does
it matter if they were laid in different formations? Somewhere in the house, then in preparation, then into the truck, then unloaded from the
truck, awaiting their spot of burial? Does that matter?
MORGAN: Yes, it could. You`ll get initial onset, let`s just say, for instance -- I don`t know this. Let`s just say, for instance, the children
were laying face-up for a period of time. He had them laying on the floor in the home, he takes the children, lays them on their back in the back of
the bed of the truck. And then he takes them. Remember, we`re not talking about eight to ten hours here now, this is prior to fixation. You will
begin to have sudden onset of postmortem lividity. He drives to the location and then takes the children and places them into this vat. Again,
we don`t know how deep it is --
BANFIELD: Before you get to the oil, if the children are in one position in the home, and then they are loaded into the truck in another position,
is that two places on the body that will show this livor mortis?
MORGAN: Yes, it can be. It will be more pronounced, it will be more pronounced in the area in which they`re dependently positioned. So you
will have an initial onset, and then the position they finally wound up in, they`ll be presenting like that.
[18:10:10:] BANFIELD: So there can be an initial -- there should be an initial one, because they were lying in that house at some point.
MORGAN: Yes.
BANFIELD: Probably for more than 20 minutes, right?
MORGAN: Yes.
BANFIELD: It would take that long.
MORGAN: That is correct.
BANFIELD: At least to get them you know, prepared or at least for the killing of Shanann.
MORGAN: Right.
BANFIELD: So there will be some onset in the house. Then presumably not an exact position in the truck. So there will be a secondary onset of
livor mortis, if Chris` story is true.
MORGAN: Yes.
BANFIELD: Then perhaps a third if they`re brought out of the truck and put on the ground, and each one is carried up to an oil tank separately, right?
MORGAN: Right.
BANFIELD: It`s possible there will be a third, maybe not, but possible. But here`s the big question. If it sticks at eight to ten hours --
MORGAN: Right.
BANFIELD: -- once they go into the oil, they will float face-first, correct? No matter what, you tend to turn face-down in any kind of liquid
that you`re suspended to, correct?
MORGAN: Yes, the dead do. That is why it`s referred, to forgive me, as dead man`s float. They will float face-down, essentially. You`ll get in
this liquid environment, I`ve seen this many times, particularly if the body is nonsupport, it is just free-flowing, it kind a skews the way
gravity affects the body. So you`ll get this odd kind of line that appears on the body.
And this is key for us in this particular case, because the demonstration that they would have seen at the scene for lividity will be this odd
displacement of lividity in the dependent area.
BANFIELD: Ok. So here`s what`s critical.
MORGAN: Yes.
BANFIELD: I am not so much for Shanann, because she ended up in a grave and she would have been static as if she were in a truck or a grave. That
is where the gravity`s going.
MORGAN: Yes.
BANFIELD: For those children, if there is no flotation livor mortis indication, meaning that eight to ten-hour window ended before they were in
the oil --
MORGAN: Yes.
BANFIELD: Are you following me?
MORGAN: Oh, yes, you bet I am.
BANFIELD: They`d been dead longer than eight to ten hours before they`re suspended in that oil, there`s no way Shanann could have killed them
because she didn`t get home until 2:00 a.m.?
MORGAN: Yes, is that correct. And one of the things I want to know as an investigator, and I really want to peg this down, Ash, is how long did he
have control over these little angels` bodies? How long did he have control over them while they were alive? At what point, and we need to be
able to measure this, and this will have taken place at the scene as well as hopefully at the morgue as well.
BANFIELD: So I want to be crystal clear. If these little girls were killed on Sunday, instead of Monday, when he tells us they were killed, by
Shanann, we will be able to tell. Because if they don`t have those particular signs of livor mortis that you can only get when suspended in
liquid, then it is impossible that Chris Watts` story is true, it is impossible that Shanann Watts could have killed them. She is seen coming
home at 2:00 a.m. and they would have possibly -- they can only -- if I`m doing the math correctly, if they were killed any time before 8:00 to 10:00
at night on Sunday, then it is impossible that Shanann did it, correct?
MORGAN: Yes. So, I would concur with your assessment on that, yes. It`s within the realm of possibility. And I think that they need to look very
hard. And I`m really wondering if this is why, if this is why this information has not been released yet. Because they`re trying to be as
thorough as possible.
BANFIELD: Thank you for that, because even if the M.D. completely screwed and up didn`t look for livor mortis pattern, they always photograph these
bodies, they always have that for posterity, even though those little babies have been buried that evidence will still exist, correct?
MORGAN: That is absolutely correct.
BANFIELD: Wow that is amazing. I knew it, I knew it, I knew you would have these answers. Thank you, Joe, for that.
MORGAN: You bet, Ash.
BANFIELD: And there`s till so much more, there is still so many questions. Even if you can get the science to prove who did or didn`t do this, there`s
always the why? And science is never going to tell you motive, but there are some other things that will. And we`ve culled through hours and hours
of Facebook videos of Shanann Watts and this family. And it is crystal clear that Shanann and her kids were dealing with a lot of health issues.
So this starts to really beg the question, could the stress and the impact of those health issues, and all the costs that it takes to look after
little kids when they`re in the hospital, could it take a toll on a father and a husband and a breadwinner? We`ll talk about that next.
[18:15:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHANANN WATTS, VICTIM, WIFE OF CHRIS WATTS: I was diagnosed with health challenges. And -- and I met Chris. He knew me at my worst. And he
accepted me. And, you know, through your vows. Like through sickness and everything. He is been there. And he is stuck around because he was the
one for me. And he is amazing. And I can`t tell you how wonderful he is.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: Or is he? Because we`ve been looking for reasons that Chris Watts might kill his wife. A woman who`d been through so much. And we
have not been able to find a shred of it. Just nothing that would explain why he would have wanted her dead.
[18:20:02] OK, he had a girlfriend. Big deal. Few people would ever consider killing their entire family, because they`re having an affair, but
Shanann had something else. She had these health challenges. And it may not have been something that was cheap either. And before long, it turns
out those precious little girls were also at the doctor`s over and over again. And with the Watts family`s mounting financial issues, we are
starting to wonder if Chris preferred a sudden tragedy to a continued treatment and all of the stress and the bills that come along with it.
After all, you don`t have to prove motive, but it sure does help when you`re facing a jury with a mystery like that.
Back with me, Crime journalist Pat Lalama. Pat, let me just go over a couple of things. But first, I knew she had lupus, but I didn`t know about
everything else and I sure didn`t know about the unbelievable list of ailments these children had. Let me start with the first thing that we
knew about back in 2012. She posted on Facebook, I need help with celiac information, I`ve recently diagnosed and I`m very confused and I just lost
my medical insurance.
LALAMA: Right.
BANFIELD: I do not know what to eat or what to make except fresh foods, but those are expensive. And then that was back in 2012, but just as
recent as August 30th of last year, Chris makes a post on her Facebook and he says this. This is Chris, I wanted to let everyone know Shanann`s
interior cervical discectomy and fusion with arthroplasty plant, aka neck surgery, yesterday went well. She is going to stay another night,
presumably in the hospital he means. She is in a lot of pain, but she is doing good. She is strong and still trying to help others. Thank you
everyone for prayers and checking in on her. That is not cheap, Celiac, lupus, neck surgery, and hospital stays, I mean, we`re talking tens of
thousands of dollars.
LALAMA: Let me tell you something, Ashleigh. I know about lupus all too well. I do have a family member who suffers from a severe case of it. If
it becomes the advanced stages or the more serious stages, it is debilitating, it is expensive, and in many cases you can`t even work,
you`re unable, the pain is so great.
Now you have done some extraordinary job of digging through and analyzing forensic issues. And physical evidence. For me, I watch with great
admiration. For me, I`m looking at sort of the psychological aspects. And I`ve seen something develop here. I feel as if he could not, perhaps, take
the pressure anymore. His children, here on my iPhone is a list of about 15 different conditions for which his children had to be treated. You look
at a guy whose filed bankruptcy, who doesn`t seem to know where he is going in life it appears, doesn`t have a lot of friends, there`s all this
financial pressure. So you put that together with your explanations of time lines and maybe a picture is starting to emerge.
BANFIELD: Yes, let`s pop it up on the screen. Because lo and behold, we actually have all of these illnesses. This is because of her social media
posts. This is all the stuff that Cece and Bella were treated for. Bilateral ear tubes. And I can`t even pronounce that I`m sorry,
Adenoidectomy. Ear infection. Croup. Pneumonia. Viral pneumonitis. Hypoxia. Asthma. Upper respiratory infection. I can`t pronounce this
either, I really just don`t know, I am sorry, something with the esophagus. They have dog allergies, they had cat allergies, they had mold allergies,
they had cashew allergies, tree nut allergies, kiwi allergies, and they had -- at least one of them had an adjustment done by a chiropractor as well.
That is a lot.
LALAMA: Right.
BANFIELD: That is way more than the average child. And then here`s Shanann on her Facebook live talking about the girls both having breathing
issues, take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WATTS: I don`t know -- I don`t know where my kids are, I don`t know where Shanann is. It`s -- it`s not something I could ever, ever fathom would
happen in my lifetime. And I have no inclination of where she is.
S. WATTS: They only have two treatment. They both have asthma. So our sicknesses are considered breathing issues. They both were at the hospital
last night for breathing issues. That is our problem.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: And that is a significant problem. I mean, that is a really big problem, but listen, there`s more. We`re not sure if thrive, the company
that she was working with, has health insurance. But we do know that Anadarko does. And here`s a list what Anadarko can actually cover.
Medical, dental, vision, domestic partner benefits, high-deductible health plan, health care with dependent care, flexible spending account, and a 24
hour nurse.
[18:25:00] I want to bring in Tom Fuentes, if I can on this. You`re a senior law enforcement analyst for CNN, also former FBI assistant Director,
and you know a thing or two about how investigations work. I don`t know about you, but if I were a cop I would not think to start looking through
your e-mails with united health care if you`re working on a murder scene, but if I all of a sudden started to see all this and these mounting bills
that must have been coming into that household because of the ailments that not only Shanann, not only Cece, but also Bella had? I`d start to wonder
what the communications were between Chris Watts and his health care providers. Because what if they were saying, no, sorry, that doesn`t
qualify, that is out of pocket? Now you can start seeing some financial panic setting in, no?
TOM FUENTES, CNN`S SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST AND FORMER FBI ASSISTANT DIRECTOR: Well, absolutely, Ashleigh. You know, the police are going to
be looking at and would have already been looking at, you know, what is the financial stress on him and on the family? Based on medical conditions,
based on other factors. His job and all the treatments that were going on and whether they had insurance coverage for all of that or not. So, you
know, certainly that would be a factor. You know, again, we don`t know everything the authorities know, but this would be clearly something they`d
look at to try to determine --
BANFIELD: Can I ask you this? God forbid I murder anybody, because I have about 300 to 400 e-mails a day. The thousands of e-mails that anybody
would ever have to look through if they`re looking for something. I don`t know that police do that. I don`t know that maybe they use key words. But
I know full well there`s really nothing interesting about my conversations with my dentist, but maybe there is if you start to see this kind of
pattern. Would they look at every e-mail of his, every single e-mail? Or would they need something to direct them to, say, the boring information
with your health care providers?
FUENTES: No, they would be looking at every e-mail, every message, every contact they could come up with to try and make this an air tight case.
Don`t forget another issue in those potential e-mails isn`t just what treatment was approved by the insurance companies or which doctors they
saw, but it made lead to someone else being involved in this murder or set of murders. So yes --
BANFIELD: I can see that.
FUENTES: You know, a thorough job by the police would absolutely be to look at every communication.
BANFIELD: I just can`t imagine how long and tedious that would be, but Tom, let me bring in Craig Silverman, he is former Denver chief Deputy
Prosecutor, also the host of "The Craig Silverman show," 710 KNUS. Craig, I find this just so fascinating, because I would never have thought to
call, you know, to look at an e-mail from again, United Health Care about what qualifies or doesn`t qualify for out of pocket. But considering
there`s so much health care, do you think that this would be something that would be looked at in terms of calling those doctors, calling the doctors
to say, you treated Shanann Watts, did she ever say anything about her husband and about what things were like at home?
CRAIG SILVERMAN, HOST, THE CRAIG SILVERMAN SHOW, 710 KNUS: Wow, as a parent, I can`t imagine killing your family over something like this. And
even with the list of maladies, there are far more dire circumstances. And I`m not sure what caused him to kill the kids, but it appears that Shanann
was killed for being a witness or a potential witness. And that is a statutory aggravating factor when it comes to capital punishment in
Colorado. And that is the whole (inaudible) here. The D.A. is looking to put together a slam-dunk case which is the first and foremost rule of death
penalty prosecution.
BANFIELD: Yes. So who knows who was killed first? I mean, if, you know, if Chris` story is true, the children were killed first and Shanann was
killed as a reason.
SILVERMAN: His story is not true. His story is not true, it is preposterous.
BANFIELD: I think a lot of people agree with you, it sounds preposterous, but you can`t say that to a jury, you`ve got to connect the dots. Some of
them want the molecular dots connected as well. And I will tell, just by looking on Facebook, some people actually believe him, they think he is
innocent, they think that Shanann had it coming. I don`t know where that comes from. But you know it, you`ve been in a courtroom, you know juries
have to have that material in front of them.
Hold your thought for a minute, because there`s something else I`m going to ask you about the law in your neck of the woods, Craig, in Colorado, some
things that you absolutely have to do during the booking process. Craig knows it and he is going to tell you why it is so significant in this case.
Because it`s starting to pop up again and again in those incredible documents.
And also now that we know about this mystery bag or at least we know a little bit about the mystery bag that was found at the scene, where those
bodies were found that lonely -- every time I see this picture, zooming in on this extremely remote and lonely site, I get the willies. Because I
just think it`s such a desolate spot to leave your family dead. Who does this? Who does this? I mean, look at this, but what do we know about
Chris Watts` footwear? What do we know about his feet? It`s pretty significant, considering some bag that showed up at that lonely spot had a
mysterious footprint on it and lo and behold, there is a picture of Chris with sandals and bare feet. Is it his footprint? Is it possible, possible,
possible it`s anyone else`s? That`s next.
[18:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He would reach out and help anybody that needed help with anything.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): There`s no explaining human behavior.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All the times we were with him, it was nothing but love.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nobody that knew him wanted to believe it was him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It took a level of hubris that Shakespeare would have been blown away about.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): Very compassionate, very insecure, and kind of dorky.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): Why do people do this? Why did this come to this?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s a monster who let us comfort him and so absolutely no remorse for what he`s done.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BANFIELD: If you`re trying to get away with murder, one of your immediate priorities is probably going to be cleaning up the crime scene. And more
than likely cleaning up yourself. But some sins don`t wash off with a simple shower. Sometimes things you don`t expect wind up connecting you to
the crime. And sometimes those things are still on your body more than a month after the murders.
Back with me, crime journalist Pat Lalama. Pat, super fascinating this issue of the bag that was found at the scene yesterday. One of the things I
really didn`t drill down on right away was a little tiny piece of fine print. And that was that -- I`m going to read it directly from the people`s
motion. See if you can see what stands out.
Colorado Bureau of Investigation developed possible barefoot impressions using their normal latent print process for non-porous items. These
impressions were developed from a bag.
A bag which was collected at the scene where the victims` bodies were located. And that`s from the Frederick Police Department. They call it
evidence number 26. Evidence number 26. But that non-porous item. To me that now starts to sound a little bit more like plastic bag. You?
PAT LALAMA, CRIME JOURNALIST: Yep, yep, sure, first thing that came to my head. I think of those big, heavy-duty plastic bags that we use in the
kitchen or for raking leaves or whatever. But the question will be now, what is the significance of that bag? Does it match bags at home? Did it
come from another location?
And as far as that footprint is concerned, well, do we define -- can we define, is it his? Is it potentially somebody else`s? Maybe even we`ll
contribute some information to the timeline once they get the swab they`re asking for from his feet.
BANFIELD: If they get it. He`s fighting. I hate to say this, he`s fighting tooth and toenail.
LALAMA: Right.
BANFIELD: Show me that picture of him when he was so happy to put his mug out there on T.V. the day that these three people were killed. He`s out on
T.V. asking everybody to help him find his family. Do we have those still pictures that show a full body with bare feet?
I suppose he wasn`t aware that cameras take pictures not just of your talking face or you on the phone or you rocking back and forth with your
elbows -- they take pictures of your -- this is not necessarily the one, but that`s probably helpful.
I`m not sure if those are Chris` feet. Are those? Do we know for sure those are his? I know for sure those are his because they are attached to his
body, right there in the sandals.
So, he and his lawyer don`t want to do this. They certainly didn`t want to give fingerprints, palm prints, buccal swab. They`re probably going to
fight again when it comes to the footprints that were asked for last night. We haven`t seen a motion filed yet arguing that.
Right there, folks. Those are the feet that they want to either exclude or they want to include on whatever porous, non-porous surface, was found in
that bag.
So Craig Silverman, since it`s your neck of the woods, look, we were real careful to start looking up the law in Colorado when it comes to getting
samples from people, because Chris Watts is not happy about the request from the prosecutors to get the buccal swab and the fingerprints and the
palm prints and all the rest.
And we found Katie`s Law. I want to read part of it. Katie`s Law in Colorado requires law enforcement agencies to collect DNA samples from
adults who are arrested for a felony. And here`s what I am guessing, Craig. That when you`re arrested for nine felonies, you don`t get a pass on that
law.
And by the way, it continues to say, all of this is as part of the booking process. I am so confused as to why the prosecutors are asking for it now,
when the law required it to be collected during the booking process. And we know that`s already happened.
CRAIG SILVERMAN, FORMER DENVER CHIEF DEPUTY PROSECUTOR: Well, I think this is a super abundance of caution. Let`s recall this crime occurred in tiny
Frederick, Colorado which doesn`t have triple homicides every day. So, now that he`s in the system, and nobody collects barefoot prints, to my
knowledge.
[18:40:01] They`re using a mechanism under the Colorado rules of criminal procedure, rule 41.1, which provides for a non-testimonial identification
evidence. And he will be forced to comply. And that way you don`t have to argue about the constitutionality of this statute.
A judge will sign off on this, and in this kind of case, there may be capital punishment at the end of it, they want to double-dot all their Is
and triple-cross all of their Ts.
BANFIELD: That is so interesting is that they are so worried about this case, you know, anything getting thrown out on a technicality, we gotcha,
we backed it up with another sample that same from the judge, so in your face. I get it. Now I get it. Thank you for that.
If it is going to be a capital murder case involving children and all the rest, that sounds like a logical move, to back it up just in case they
fight that issue with Katie`s Law. Don`t know how they can but you never know.
All right, Craig, thank you for that. Stand by. While we continue to piece together the timeline of these murders, could Chris Watts` body yield any
clues as to what happened the night of the murders?
Was there a physical struggle between Chris and Shanann? A lot of you have asked some very pointed questions, and you`re seeing things that other
people aren`t. We`re going to bring up from our Facebook viewers. Some of their issues and answers are coming in just a moment.
[18:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): Did you guys have fun at school?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yeah!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My kids are crazy but I love them.
Red bull, red bull, red bull, good girl.
I love the fact that I can be there for them.
Give me a hug. Oh, oh!
We go everywhere together. And we do everything together.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Cold!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): I know, baby, it`s cold.
Look at me. I love you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I love you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BANFIELD: The more we find out about the Watts family, the more questions we have about their murders. But every day, you are posing questions on our
Facebook page that help us to hone down the possibilities.
Let me start with Dorothy Smith`s question. Dorothy asked this. There were no noticeable scratch marks on Chris Watts` exposed body. Could Chris have
given a date rape drug to Shanann so that she wouldn`t fight back?
Joseph Scott Morgan, that`s actually not something I`d ever thought of, but if you are planning theoretically to kill your wife and you don`t want it
to be that big of a struggle, that would make sense. They`d be able to find that out, right?
JOSEPH SCOTT MORGAN, CERTIFIED DEATH INVESTIGATOR: Yeah, they would. They`ll do a full tox panel on her to see what was in her system. One of
the other things too, if she`s got lupus and celiac disease, one of the things that you have to consider, she`s fighting fatigue all of the time.
Not to mention, let`s remember, one victim we`re not talking about, she`s pregnant as well.
BANFIELD: Right. Fifteen weeks at the time of death. And that changes everything also.
MORGAN: Yes, it does.
BANFIELD: OK. So the next question is from Robin Geiger Boynton. I think I pronounced her name right, or his. He has probably wished a thousand times
he never had given those interviews. That thought must play over and over in his sick mind. Well, that`s if he`s guilty, right?
So let`s just watch that interview again and think about Chris Watts having to watch this interview at some point down the road, say at trial, have a
look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRIS WATTS, ACCUSED KILLER DAD: I don`t know -- i don`t know where my kids are. I don`t know where Shanann is. It`s -- it`s not something I could
ever, ever fathom would happen in my lifetime. And I -- I have no inclination of where she is.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: Craig Silverman, god, you`re a -- you`re an attorney. You were a former prosecutor. That is going to be really uncomfortable for him to get
over at trial, if he ends up at trial.
SILVERMAN: Right. But I suspect he`s a sociopath. So telling lies like that, and even maybe getting the limelight, that`s part of his
sociopathology. And you have to be a sociopath to commit a triple homicide with all these aggravated factors. Exposing the body that way? How can that
not be a sociopathy and dispose of the bodies in the oil tanks?
BANFIELD: No matter whose story is true in the house, what happened outside the house is appalling, without a question. I think that`s why so
many people are so fascinated by this case. All right. Hold your questions right there for a moment.
There is this other story that just came at us like a -- like a bull this week. Has something to do with this. If you kidnapped a 14-year-old girl,
you raped her daily for nine months, or if you helped someone do that, life sentence, right?
Not for Wanda Barzee. See where Wanda`s fancy new home is. And what Wanda has ordered up for lunch. And find out who is paying for her brand-new life
on the outside. Here`s a hint. You are. That`s next. But first, tonight, CNN hero Luke Mickelson.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LUKE MICKELSON, CNN HERO: Mattress and sheets. I`m just a farm kid from Idaho.
[18:50:01] I grew up here. What I didn`t know was there are kids next door who are struggling. Kids sleeping on the floor. I was making six-figure
salary, but I fell into this need that I discovered wasn`t being fulfilled by anybody.
These bottoms or tops.
I quit my job, because I wanted to do this full time. The need I have isn`t financial. The need I have is seeing the joy on kids` faces, knowing that,
you know what, I can make a difference.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[18:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BANFIELD: Last night, we warned parents nationwide about a sex offender who just walked out of prison. A sex offender responsible for one of the
most horrendous kidnappings and rape cases in this country`s history. And tonight, we know exactly where she is.
Wanda Barzee just checked into a hotel in the city of south Salt Lake in Utah. It happens to be just miles from the home where her husband kidnapped
14-year-old Elizabeth Smart in the middle of the night, using a knife to do it. He led Elizabeth into the wilderness, where Wanda helped him to rape
her, every single day, right there at his side.
That couple held Elizabeth Smart captive for nine months, starving her, force-feeding her drugs and alcohol, and threatening to kill her if she
fled. And again, remember, she was raped every day.
Because according to that violent rapist, Brian David Mitchell, god had ordered him to kidnap more than a dozen teenage girls and make them his
virgin brides. And if you ask Elizabeth Smart`s family, 15 years behind bars has not changed the woman who helped to make all of this happen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ED SMART, ELIZABETH SMART`S FATHER: All indications are she`s still the same mindset she was when she pushed Brian to come down to the house and
abduct Elizabeth. I`m just really grateful that there`s a federal parole agent that`s out there, that will be keeping tabs on her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: Tom Fuentes, I -- I still just cannot believe it. I get it, the math is the math. She served all the time she could. Their hands were tied.
But now she`s out. And did you see that picture of her? She`s now being put up, more than likely by the government at a hotel, where lots of families
could be staying. And they probably paid for that nice little meal that she ordered up.
How on earth does a sex offender get to stay at a place like the In Town Suites when a family might pull in exhausted and say, we want to check in
here too. And oh, by the way, you know, junior, will you go down the hall and get ice and maybe something from the vending machine?
Tom, how does that happen? How is it that we`re all supposed to feel safe at a hotel like this if Wanda Barzee is allowed to be put up there?
TOM FUENTES, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, you`re not. And i think the message here is that we have politicians in this country pass
laws, governors signing laws that are just so dangerous to members of the public. And it`s almost like they don`t care.
You know, the fact that she was not able to be held in prison longer, for the rest of her life, in fact, and the fact that then she`s now in a
situation where she could once again be a predator, being a sociopath as she clearly is --
BANFIELD: Hey, by the way, Tom, look at your screen. That picture, that mug shot was the final kick in the teeth, so to speak to all of us. That`s
her photograph for the sex offender registry. A big, toothy grin. As if to say, I got this. And I`m back out. And there`s nothing you can do about it.
By the way, it got me thinking, she was homeless before she went in, and now she gets a place that costs about 1,200 bucks a month, all on our dime,
because she doesn`t have any money of her own. And she gets to pick up her social security checks, doesn`t she?
FUENTES: Yeah. Yeah, it`s just unfortunate that, you know, we have this situation, we have it in many states and many cities in this country and
sanctuary cities.
And, you know, for someone like me that`s spent four decades in law enforcement, to see these people like her on the loose, get turned back out
or have politicians say, well, really, she ought to be let go and she`s paid her debt to society and all of this, it`s just horrible. And when you
see these situations --
BANFIELD: It`s frustrating --
FUENTES: It`s hard to not just be so aggravated.
BANFIELD: Yeah, don`t let the pink tracksuit fool you. That woman is a rapist. That woman is a kidnapper. That woman, according to Elizabeth
Smart, still carries around the manifesto of her husband that said god told him to collect/kidnap 15 little girls to be his wives. Still carries it
around.
[19:00:00] Never went to her meetings.
FUENTES: Yeah.
BANFIELD: That`s Wanda Barzee. It`s so frustrating. It is just so frustrating. But you all know what she looks like. Next hour of Crime and
Justice starts right now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The paperwork that`s being filed right now means that we`re going to get some answers.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They found a bag that they say contains footprints.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What the prosecution is trying to do is rule out the ability for Chris Watts to point the finger at somebody else.
BANFIELD: A curious new piece of evidence emerges.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Evidence number 26 it`s a bag that was collected at the scene where the bodies were located.
BANFIELD: Could this one tie a father to the murder of his family?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your mind just starts racing. You start wondering, is this a bag he wore over his feet to cover his footprints?
BANDFIELD: Chris Watts is still fighting the prosecutor`s every move.
CHRIS WATTS: Right. This isn`t right. This has got to stop.
BANDFIELD: Tonight, the back and forth between the man accused of murder - -
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How did the bag get there if he was not involved?
BANDFIELD: And the lawyers who want a better look at his bare body
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cheek swabs, fingerprints --
BANDFIELD: Palm prints, as well.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Photographs of his hands.
BANDFIELD: Will Chris Watts get his way?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They want to make sure that the case is airtight.
BANDFIELD: Or given the evidence piling up against him, will it even matter?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: With three dead bodies, a woman and two children, the way the bodies were disposed of I mean this is somewhat of a mini mass
murder.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This has to be a death penalty prone case.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANDFIELD: Good evening, everyone. I`m Ashleigh Banfield and this is Crime and Justice. It is hard to imagine that the very worst thing that can
happen to us, the most painful event in life, the kind of seismic destruction that ripples through hundreds of lives, can be reduced to black
and white. But when it comes to murder, it is all about the black and white because murder trials are won and lost based on what`s presented in
documents like these.
And in the case of the Watts murders, the murder of Shanann and her two little girls, it is the kind of wording that only a lawyer could love.
These documents might just mean justice for the Watts` girls and maybe a little justice for their killer because each one, each one of these
documents contains a clue as to what happened that night and whether Chris Watts was, indeed, their killer.
Joining me now, crime journalist, Pat Lalama. Pat, the document dump continues even more today this time from the prosecutors and a real
thumbing of their nose to Chris Watts and his defense and how much pushback they`re getting on their request. Take me through the docs.
PAT LALAMA, CRIME JOURNALIST: Well, it`s a chess game now, between prosecution and defense. And each -- you know, it`s a tug-of-war,
essentially. So as we do know, the defense saying, it`s against our fourth amendment rights to have to give over any kind of swab to anybody. And oh,
by the way, we want you to reconsider this whole leak investigation.
The prosecution is basically coming back saying, we don`t have to answer you, good-bye. I mean it`s as simple as that. And you know it`s going to
continue. It`s just going to continue. But look, the prosecution has to - - they have to obliterate his contention that, you know, the wife killed the children. So they are just, you know, quietly and methodically putting
their evidence together to try to prove that that`s not the case.
BANDFIELD: It`s just so fascinating to see how the prosecutors responded today. And then up on the website it went, essentially saying Chris Watts,
you can fight all you want, we`re just not responding anymore
LALAMA: Too bad. Right.
BANDFIELD: Give us your palm prints. Give us your fingerprints. Give us your cheek swab. And while you`re at it, as of last night, give us your
footprints in ink.
LALAMA: Right.
BANDFIELD: And I`m going to get to that more about in a moment because it becomes even more fascinating. We`ve learned a lot more since last night.
LALAMA: Right.
BANDFIELD: That sort of bombshell request for the prosecutors. We want your barefoot print because we found a bag that we know has a footprint on
it. We want to know if it`s yours or someone else`s. So hold that fought for a minute. I want to bring in Joseph Scott Morgan certified death
investigator also professor forensics at Jacksonville State University.
Joe Morgan, every time you say something on this show, I stop and I listen, because it`s the forensic microscopic clues that the layperson doesn`t know
about that can often trip up a killer.
And tonight, you`ve got yet another one of these forensic moments, forensic science issues that could be the linchpin in this case. We thought of
Alexa and we thought of the iPhone and we thought of all sorts of things. But we didn`t think of how blood pools in the body and how time can tell
you with an incredible tale.
I want to start with something most people don`t know, its livor mortis, not rigor mortis. It`s livor mortis. And it`s what happens inside your
body with blood when you die. Can you just give me the really quick Readers Digest explanation of happens with livor mortis?
JOSEPH SCOTT MORGAN, CERTIFIED DEATH INVESTIGATOR: Sure. Our vessels in our body are not intended to store blood. They`re there to essentially
transport blood. And what happens when we pass away, our blood will settle to the lowest point of gravity. In this particular case let`s say for
instance, we had somebody that was lying on their back. If we had someone lying on their back for a protracted period of time, the blood would pool
in that area. Liquid always seeks the lowest point of gravity and in that --
BANDFIELD: When you say that, do you know what I do have a picture of that, but before I put it up, I want to let our viewers who get a little
squeamish.
MORGAN: Yes.
BANDFIELD: I need you to know that what we`re going to show you is actually a cadaver. This is a cadaver used in science. This was something
studied at the university of -- Indiana University. And so the picture you`re seeing is of a person that seems to show exactly what you`re telling
us, Joe. Can you see your monitor and explain it?
MORGAN: Yes, absolutely. Ash I`d be glad to. That purple area you`re seeing there detailed in this image is actually the settling or the pooling
of blood in that particular area. Those white, kind of blanched out areas you see there. Just think about it this way. Those areas are the areas of
contact where the body -- where the entire weight of the body is being essentially supported in those particular areas.
BANDFIELD: Pressure.
MORGAN: Pressure points, you`re absolutely right.
BANDFIELD: OK. So why I`m getting into this is not because its fascinating science, but this actually can give you a timeline, because all
of this happens -- it begins to show in the first 20 to 30 minutes after you die, correct?
MORGAN: Yes, absolutely, it does. And that`s one of the reasons as a medical legal death investigator or a former medical legal death
investigator. I`m so heavily dependent on livor mortis, because it`s only gravitational dependent. It`s not dependent on environmental temperatures.
Gravity is pretty much constant every where in our world.
BANDFIELD: OK. And so -- and you can it livor mortis. I think I called it livor mortis. It`s my bad.
MORGAN: No. No. Some people say post mortem lividityas well so --
BANDFIELD: OK. I knew about lividity. Yes. So I`ll call it livor mortis because that`s your term. But here`s where it gets extremely interesting
to this case.
MORGAN: Yes.
BANDFIELD: If it begins showing up 20 to 30 minutes after you die --
MORGAN: Right.
BANDFIELD: It actually locks in and stops in the pattern which will be its final pattern after about 8 to 10 hours, is that correct? It`s fixed after
that time?
MORGAN: Yes, people are always asking us how do we tell time since of death or postmortem interval. And the fascinating thing about this, this
is a static marker we have, Ash. It goes out to about 8 to 10 hours and then it is fixed into that specific area, the interstitial tissue where it
has kind of bled out into the surrounding tissue. And once it`s there, it`s there. It`s not going anywhere unless the body is moved prior to
fixation.
BANDFIELD: OK. So now help me through -- and this is a little morbid, but it`s germane to the story that Chris has, according to police, told them.
That some time around 4:00 or 5:00 in the morning, he woke up, had an emotional conversation, went downstairs, came back up, saw something
terrible on the baby monitor. One of his children dead and sprawled out on the bed and saw Shanann strangling the other baby, and then went and
strangled her.
So if all of this happened around 4:00 to 5:00 in the morning, we can only presume there was a moment of breath catching. And again all of this is all
if Chris`s story is true. There`s a moment of breath catching. There`s the moment of planning. There`s a moment of preparation of these bodies,
which are now dead.
And within 20 to 30 minutes, the blood pooling is starting. And they are not standing up, they are lying down in some way. Then they are loaded on
to his truck. They`re in the bed of the pickup truck for at least a 45- minute drive, OK, Joe? You`re still with me, with right?
MORGAN: Yes. Yes, ma`am.
BANDFIELD: The camera of the neighbor saw that truck pulling out at 5:30 in the morning. 45 minutes later, if he went right to the grave site, the
work site, it would be quarter past 6:00. So some time between 4:00 a.m. and quarter past 6:00, we now have these bodies lying in some formation.
Does it matter if they were laid in different formations somewhere in the house, then in preparation, then into the truck, then unloaded from the
truck, awaiting their spot of burial, does that matter?
BANDFIELD: Yes. It could. You`ll get initial on set -- let`s just say, for instance, and I don`t know this. But let`s just say, for instance, the
children were laying face up for a period of time. He had them lying on the floor in the home. He takes the children, lays them on their back in
the back of the bed of the truck.
And then he takes them. Remember, we`re not talking about 8 to 10 hours here now. This is prior to fixation. You will begin to have sudden onset
of postmortem lividity. He drives to the location and takes the children and places them into this vat, again, we don`t know how deep it is --
BANDFIELD: Wait, before you get to the oil, if the children are in one position in the home.
MORGAN: Yes Ma`am.
BANFIELD: And they`re loaded into the truck in another position, is that two places on the body that will show this livor mortis?
MORGAN: Yes, it can be. It`ll be more pronounced. It`ll be more pronounced in the area in which they`re dependently positioned. So you`ll
have an initial -- an initial onset and then the position they finally wind up being. They`ll presenting like that.
BANDFIELD: OK. So there should be an initial one, because they were lying in that house at some point, probably for more than 20 minutes, right?
MORGAN: Yes. Yes.
BANDFIELD: It would take that long.
MORGAN: That`s correct.
BANDFIELD: At least to get them, you know, prepared or at least for the killing of Shanann.
MORGAN: Right.
BANDFIELD: So there`ll be some onset in the house, and then presumably, not an exact position in the truck, so they`ll be secondary onset of livor
mortis if Chris` story is true.
MORGAN: Yes.
BANDFIELD: Then perhaps a third, and if they`re brought out of the truck and put on the ground and each one is carried up to the oil truck
separately, right?
MORGAN: Right.
BANDFIELD: And it`s possible there`ll be a third maybe not but possible. But here`s the big question, if it sticks at 8 to 10 hours --
MORGAN: Right.
BANDFIED: Once they go into the oil, they will float face first, correct? No matter what you tend to turn facedown in any kind of liquid that you`re
suspended in, correct?
MORGAN: Yes, the dead do. That`s why it`s referred to, forgive me, but as a dead man`s float. They will float face down, essentially. And you`ll
get in kind of this liquid environment. I`ve seen this many times, particularly if the body is non-supported. It`s free floating. It kind of
skews the way body will affect the body.
So you`ll get this odd kind of line that appears on the body. And this is key for us in this particular case, because the demonstration that they
would have seen at the scene for lividity will be this odd displacement of lividity in the dependent area.
BANDFIED: OK. So here`s what`s critical.
MORGAN: Yes.
BANDFIELD: Not so much for Shanann, because she ended up in a grave, and she would have been static, as if she were in a truck or a grave, that`s
where the gravity`s going.
MORGAN: Yes.
BANDFIELD: But for those children, if there is no flotation livor mortis indication, meaning that eight to ten hour window ended before they were in
the oil -- are you following me?
MORGAN: Yes. Yes. You bet I am.
BANDFIELD: They`d been dead for longer than 8 to 10 hours before they`re suspended in that oil. There`s no way Shanann could have killed them,
because she didn`t get home until 2:00 a.m.
MORGAN: Yes, that is correct. And one of the things I want to know, as an investigator, and I really want to peg this down, Ash, is, how long did he
have control over these little angels` bodies? How long did he have control over them while they were alive? At what point -- and we need to
be able to measure this. And this will have taken place at the scene, as well as hopefully at the morgue, as well.
BANDFIELD: So I want to be crystal clear. If these little girls were killed on Sunday instead of Monday, when he tells us they were killed by
Shanann, we will be able to tell, because if they don`t have those particular signs of livor mortis that you can only get went suspended in
liquid, then it is impossible that Chris Watts` story is true. It is impossible that Shanann Watts could have killed them. She is seen coming
home at 2:00 a.m. and they would have possibly -- they can only -- if I`m doing the math correctly, if they were killed anytime before 8:00 to 10:00
at night on Sunday, then it is impossible that Shanann did it
MORGAN: Yes.
BANDFIELD: Correct?
MORGAN: Yes. I would concur with your assessment on that. Yes, it`s within the realm of possibility, and I think that they need to look very
hard. And I`m really wondering if this is why -- if this is why this information has not been released yet, because they`re trying to be as
thorough as possible.
BANDFIELD: Thank you for that, because even if the M.E. completely screwed up and didn`t look for that livor mortis pattern, they always photograph
these bodies. They always have that for posterity even though those little babies have been buried, that evidence will still exist, correct?
MORGAN: That is absolutely correct.
BANDFIELD: Wow, that`s amazing. I knew it. I knew it. I knew you would have these answers. Thank you, Joe, for that.
MORGAN: You bet Ash.
BANDFIELD: And there`s still so much more. There`re still so many other questions even if you can get the science to prove who did or didn`t do
this, there`s always the why. And science is never going to tell you motive, but there are some other things that will. And we`ve culled through
hours and hours of Facebook videos of Shanann Watts and this family and it is crystal clear that Shanann and her kids were dealing with a lot of
health issues.
So this starts to really beg the question, could the stress and the impact of those health issues and all the cost that it takes to look after little
kids when they`re in the hospital? Could it take a toll on a father and a husband and a breadwinner? We`ll talk about that next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHANNAN WATTS, CHRIS WATTS WIFE: I was diagnosed with health challenges and then I met Chris. He knew me at my worst and he accepted me. And, you
know, through your vows, through sickness and everything, he`s been there. And he stuck around because he was the one for me. And he is amazing. And I
can`t tell you how wonderful he is.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANDFIELD: Or is he? Because we`ve been looking for reasons why Chris Watts might kill his wife, a woman who`d been through so much and we have
not been able to find a shred of it. Just nothing that would explain why he would have wanted her dead. OK, he had a girlfriend, big deal. Few
people would ever consider killing their entire family because they`re having an affair. But Shanann had something else.
She`s had these health challenges. And it may not have been something that was cheap, either. And before long, it turns out that those precious
little girls were also at the doctor`s, over and over again. And with the Watts` families mounting financial issues, we`re starting to wonder if
Chris preferred a sudden tragedy to a continued treatment and all of the stress and the bills that come along with it. After all, you don`t have to
prove motive. But it sure does help when you`re facing a jury with a mystery like this.
Back with me, Pat Lalama. Pat let me just go over a couple of things. First, you know, I knew she had lupus, but I didn`t know about everything
else and I didn`t know about the unbelievable list of ailments these children had. Let me start with the first thing we knew about back in
2012. She posted on Facebook, I need help with celiac information.
I`m recently diagnosed and very confused and I just lost my medical insurance. I do not know what to eat or what to make except fresh foods,
but those are expensive. And then that was back in 2012. But just as recent as august 30th of this year, Chris makes a post on her Facebook and
he says this.
"This is Chris, I wanted to let everyone know, Shanann`s anterior cervical discectomy and fusion with arthroplasty implant a.k.a neck surgery
yesterday went well. She`s going to be staying another night," presumably in the hospital, he means.
"She`s in a lot of pain, but she`s doing good. She`s strong and still trying to help others. Thank you, everyone, for prayers and checking in on
her." That is not cheap. Celiac, lupus, neck surgery, hospital stays. I mean, we`re talking tens of thousands of dollars.
LALAMA: Let me tell you something, Ashleigh. I know about lupus all too well. I do have a family member who suffers from a severe case of it. If
it becomes the advanced stages or the more serious stages, it is debilitating. It is expensive and in many cases, you can`t even work.
You`re unable, the pain is so great.
Now, you have done this extraordinary job of digging through and analyzing forensic issues and physical evidence. For me, I watch with great
admiration. For me, I`m looking at sort of the psychological aspects.
And I`m seeing something develop here. I feel as if he could not, perhaps, take the pressure anymore. His children, here on my iPhone is a list of
about 15 different conditions for which his children had to be treated. So you look at a guy who`s filed bankruptcy, who doesn`t seem to know where
he`s going in life, it appears to me, doesn`t have a lot of friends, there`s all of this financial pressure. So you put that together with your
explanations of timelines and maybe a picture is starting to emerge
BANDFIELD: Let`s pop it up on the screen, because lo and behold, we actually have all of these illnesses. This is because her social media
posts. This is all the stuff that CC and Bella were treated for. Bilateral ear tubes and I can`t pronounce that I`m sorry.
Adenoid -- adenoidectomy, ear infection, croup, pneumonia, viral pneumonia, viral pneumonitis, hypoxia, asthma, upper respiratory infection.
I can`t pronounce this one either. I don`t -- I really just don`t know. I`m sorry, something with the esophagus.
They had dog allergies. They had cat allergies. They had mold allergies. They had cashew allergies, tree nut allergies, kiwi allergies, and they had
-- at least one of them had an adjustment done by a chiropractor, as well. That`s a lot. I mean, that`s way more than the average child. And then
here`s Shanann on her Facebook live talking about the girls both having breathing issues. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRIS WATTS: I don`t know -- I don`t know where my kids are. I don`t know where Shanann is. It`s not something I could ever fathom would happen in my
lifetime. And I have no inclination of where she is.
SHANNAN WATTS: Yeah, we have to do this treatment, baby. They both have asthma. So our sicknesses are considered breathing issues. They both were
at the hospital last night for breathing issues. That`s our problem.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANDFIELD: And that`s a significant problem. I mean, that`s a really big problem. But listen, there`s more. We`re not sure if Thrive, the company
she was working with has health insurance, but we do know that Anadarko does. And here`s the list of what Anadarko can actually cover. Medical and
dental, vision, domestic partner benefits, high deductible health plan, health care with dependent care, flexible spending accounts, and a 24-hour
nurse`s line.
I want to bring in Tom Fuentes if I can on this. You know you`re a senior law enforcement analyst for CNN, Tom. But your also former FBI Assistant
Director and you know a thing or two about how investigations work. I don`t know about you, but if I were a cop, I would not think to start looking
through your e-mails with United Health Care if you`re working on a murder scene.
But if I all of a sudden started to see all of this and these mounting bills that must have been coming into that household because of the
ailments that not only Shanann, not only CC, but also Bella had, I would start to wonder what the communications were between Chris Watts and his
health care providers, because what if they were saying, no, sorry, that doesn`t qualify, that`s out of pocket? Now you can start seeing some
financial panic setting in, no?
TOM FUENTES, SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST, CNN: Well, absolutely, Ashleigh. you know, the police are going to be looking at and would have
already been looking at, you know, what is the financial stress on him and on the family based on medical conditions, based on other factors, his job
and all the treatments that were going on and whether they had insurance policy coverage for all of that or not. So, you know, certainly, that
would be factor. And again, we don`t know everything the authorities know, but this would be clearly something they would look at to try to determine
--
BANDFIELD: So can I ask you this? If I -- God forbid I ever murder anybody, because I have about 300 to 400 e-mails a day, so the thousands of
e-mails that anybody would ever have to look through, if they`re looking for something, I don`t know that police do that. I don`t know that maybe
they just use keywords.
But I know full well there`s really nothing interesting about any conversations with my dentist. But maybe there is, if you start to see
this kind of pattern. Would they look at every e-mail of his? Every single e-mail? Or would they need something to direct them to, say, the boring
information with your health care provider?
FUENTES: No, they would be looking at every e-mail, every message, every contact that they could come up with to try to make this an airtight case.
and don`t forget, with another issue in those potential e-mails isn`t just what treatment was approved by the insurance companies or which doctors
they saw, but it may lead to someone else being involved in this murder or set of murders.
BANDFIELD: I could see that.
FUENTES: So yeah, you know, a thorough job by the police would absolutely be to look at every communication.
BANDFIELD: I just can`t imagine how long and tedious that would be. But let me bring in Craig Silverman. He`s a former Denver Chief Deputy
Prosecutor, also the host of the Craig Silverman show, 710k and U.S. Craig, I find this just so fascinating, because I would never have thought
to call, you know, or to look at an e-mail from, again, about United Health Care about what qualifies and what doesn`t qualify for out-of-pocket. But
considering there`s so much health care, do you think that this would be something that would be looked at in terms of calling those doctors,
calling the doctors to say, you treated Shanann Watts. Did she ever say anything about her husband and about what things were like at home?
CRAIG SILVERMAN FMR. DENVER CHIEF DEPUTY PROSECUTOR: Wow, as a parent, I can`t imagine killing your team over something like this. And even with
the list of maladies, there are far more dire circumstances. And I`m not sure what caused them to kill the kids, but it appears that Shanann was
killed for being a witness or a potential witness.
And that`s a statutory aggravating factor when it comes to capital punishment in Colorado. And that`s the whole enchilada here. The D.A. is
looking to put together a slam dunk case, which is the first and foremost rule of death penalty prosecution.
BANDFIELD: Yes. So, who knows who was killed first? I mean, if Chris` story`s true, the children were killed first and Shanann was killed as a
reason.
SILVERMAN: His story is not true. His story is not true.
BANDFIELD: Well you know what --
SILVERMAN: It is preposterous.
BANDFIELD: I think a lot of people agree with you that it sounds preposterous. But you can`t say that to a jury. You got to connect the
dots. And some of them want the molecular dots you know connected as well. And I`ll tell you just by a look on Facebook, some people actually believe
him. They think he`s innocent and they think that Shanann had it coming. I don`t know where that comes from, but you know it.
You`ve been in a courtroom. You know that jurors have to have that material in front of them. Hold your thought for a minute, because there`s
something else I`m going to ask you about the law in your neck of the woods, Craig. In Colorado, some things that you absolutely have to do
during the booking process. Craig knows it and he`s going to tell you why it is so significant in this case, because it`s starting to pop up again
and again in those incredible documents.
And also, now that we know about this mystery bag or at least we know a little bit about the mystery bag that was found at the scene, where those
bodies were found, that lonely -- every time I see this picture zooming in on this extremely remote and lonely sight, I get the willies, because I
think it`s such a desolate spot to leave your family dead.
Who does this? Who does this? I mean, look at this, but what do we know about Chris Watts` footwear? What do we know about his feet? It`s pretty
significant considering some bag that showed up at that lonely spot had a mysterious footprint on it. And lo and behold, there`s a picture of Chris
with sandals and bare feet. Is it his footprint? Is it possible, possible, possible it`s anyone else`s? That`s next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[19:35:20] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He would reach out and help anybody that needed help with anything.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s no explaining of human behavior.
NICK THAYER, CHRIS WATTS` FAMILY FRIEND: All the times we were with them, it was nothing but love.
LAUREN NAUMANN, CHRIS WATTS` CLOSE FAMILY FRIEND: Nobody even want to believe that it was him.
JAMES GAGLIANO, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: It took a level of hubris that Shakespeare that would have been blown away about.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Very compassionate, very insecure and kind of dorky.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why do people do this? Why does it come down to this?
NAUMANN: He`s a monster who let us comfort him and felt absolutely no remorse for what he`s done.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BREAM: If you`re trying to get away with murder, one of your immediate priorities is probably going to be cleaning up the crime scene and more
than likely cleaning up yourself. But some sins don`t wash off with a simple shower. Sometimes things you don`t expect wind up connecting you to
the crime. And sometimes those things are still on your body more than a month after the murders.
Back with me, Crime Journalist, Pat LaLama. And Pat, super fascinating, this issue of the bag that was found at the scene yesterday. One of the
things I really didn`t drill down on right away was a little tiny piece of fine print. And that was that -- and I`m going to read it directly from
the people`s motion and see if you can see what stands out. Colorado Bureau Investigation developed possible barefoot impressions using their
normal latent print process for non-porous items.
These impressions were developed from a bag. A bag which was collected at the scene where the victims` bodies were located. And that`s from the
Frederick Police Department. They call it evidence number 26. Evidence number 26, but that non-porous item. To me, that now starts to sound a
little bit more like plastic bag, you?
PAT LALAMA, CRIME JOURNALIST: Yes, yes. Sure. First thing that came to my head. I think of those big, heavy-duty plastic bags that we use in the
kitchen or for, you know, raking leaves or whatever. But the question will be now, what is the significance of that bag? Does it match bags at home?
Did it come from another location? And as far as that footprint is concerned, well, do we define -- can we define, is it his? Is it
potentially somebody else`s?
Maybe even will contribute some information to the timeline once they get the swab that they`re asking for from his feet.
BREAM: If they get it.
LALAMA: Yes.
BREAM: He`s fighting -- I hate to say that he`s fighting tooth and toenail. Show me that picture of him when he was so happy to put his mug
out there on TV the day that these three people were killed. He`s out on TV, asking everybody to help him find his family. Do we have those still
pictures that show a full body with bare feet? I suppose he wasn`t aware that cameras take pictures, not just of your talking face or you on the
phone.
Or you rocking back and forth with your elbows -- they take pictures of your -- well, this is not necessarily the one, but that`s probably helpful.
I`m not sure if those are Chris`s feet. Are those? Do we know for sure those were his? I know for sure those are his because they`re attached to
his body, right there in the sandals. So he and his lawyer don`t want to do this. They certainly didn`t want to give the fingerprints, palm prints
or the buccal swab.
But they -- they`re probably going to fight again when it comes to the footprints that were just asked for last night. We haven`t seen a motion
filed yet arguing that. But right there, folks, those are the feet that they want to either exclude or they want to include on whatever porous --
nonporous surface that was found on that bag. So Craig Silverman, since it`s your (INAUDIBLE) woods, I -- look, we were real careful to start
looking up the law in Colorado when it comes to getting samples from people.
Because Chris Watts is not happy about the request from the prosecutors to get the buccal swab and the finger prints and palm prints and all the rest.
And we found Katie`s Law. I want to read part of it. Katie`s Law in Colorado requires law enforcement agencies to collect DNA samples from
adults who are arrested for a felony. And here`s what I am guessing, Craig, that when you`re arrested for nine felonies, you don`t get a pass on
that law.
And by the way, it continues to say all of this is as part of the booking process. I am so confused as to why the prosecutors are asking for it now,
when the law required it to be collected during the booking process. And we know that`s already happened.
CRAIG SILVERMAN, FORMER DENVER CHIEF DEPUTY PROSECUTOR: Well, I think this is a super abundance of caution. Let`s recall this crime occurred in Tiny
Frederick, Colorado which doesn`t have triple homicides every day.
[19:40:00] So, now that he`s in the system, and nobody collects bare footprints to my knowledge, they`re using mechanism under the Colorado
Rules of Criminal Procedure, Rule 41.1 which provides for a non-testimonial identification evidence. And he will be forced to comply and that way, you
don`t have to argue about the constitutionality of this statute. A judge will sign off on this.
And in this kind of case, there may be capital punishment at the end of it. They want to double dot all their Is and triple cross all of their Ts.
BREAM: That is so interesting. They are so worried about this case, you know, anything getting thrown out on a technicality, we got you, we backed
it up with another sample that came from the judge, so in your face. I get it. Now I get it. Thank you for that. And if it is going to be a capital
murder case involving children and all the rest, that sounds like a logical move to back it up just in case that fight that issue with Katie`s Law.
Don`t know how they can, but you never know. All right, Craig, thank you for that. Stand by. . While we continue to piece together the timeline of
these murders, could Chris Watts` body yield any clues as to what happened the night of the murders? Was there a physical struggle between Chris and
Shanann? A lot of you have asked some very pointed questions and you`re seeing things that other people aren`t.
We`re going to bring up from our Facebook viewers some of their issues and answers are coming in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[19:46:23] SHANANN WATTS, CHRIS WATTS` WIFE: Did you guys have fun at school?
CELESTE WATTS, CHRIS WATTS` DAUGHTER: Yes.
BELLA WATTS, CHRIS WATTS` DAUGHTER: Yes.
S. WATTS: My kids are crazy, but I love them. In that bowl, the red bowl, reed bowl. Good girl. I love the fact that I can be there for them. Give
me a hug. Oh. We go everywhere together and we do everything together.
C. WATTS: I`m cold!
S. WATTS: I know, baby, it`s cold. Look at me. I love you.
B. WATTS: I love you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: The more we find out about the Watts family, the more questions we have about their murders but every day you are posing questions on our
Facebook page that help us to hone down the possibilities. Let me start with Dorothy Smith`s question. Dorothy ask this, there were no noticeable
scratch marks on Chris Watts` exposed body. Could Chris have given a date rape drug to Shanann so that she wouldn`t fight back?
Joseph Scott Morgan, that`s not something I`d ever thought of, but if you are planning, theoretically, to kill your wife and you don`t want it to be
that bit of a struggle, that would make sense. They`d be able to find that out, right?
JOSEPH SCOTT MORGAN, CERTIFIED DEATH INVESTIGATOR: Yes. They would. They`ll do a full tox panel on her to see what was in her system. One of
the other things too if she`s got lupus and celiac disease, one of the things that she have to consider, she`s fighting fatigue all of the time.
Not to mention, was to remember one victim we`re not talking about, she`s pregnant as well.
BANFIELD: Right, 15 weeks at the time of death. And that changes everything also. OK. So the next question is from Robin Geiger Boyanton,
I think I pronounced her name right or his. He has probably wished a thousand times he never had given those interviews. That thought must play
over and over in his sick mind. Well, that`s if he`s guilty, right? So let`s just watch that interview again and think about Chris Watts having to
watch this interview at some point down the road, say at trial, have a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRIS WATTS, SUSPECT IN FAMILY MASSACRE: I don`t know -- I don`t know where my kids are. I don`t know where Shanann is. It`s not something I
could ever, ever fathom would happen in my lifetime. And I have no inclination of where she is.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: Craig Silverman, god, you`re a -- you`re an attorney. You were a former prosecutor. That is going to be really uncomfortable for him to
get over at trial, if he ends up at trial.
SILVERMAN: Right, but I suspect he`s a sociopath, so telling lies like that, and even maybe getting the limelight, that`s part of his
sociopathology. And you have to be a sociopath to commit a triple homicide with all these aggravated factors.
BANFIELD: Yes. Well --
(CROSSTALK)
SILVERMAN: And to dispose the body that way, I mean, how can you not be a sociopath and dispose of the bodies in the oil tanks?
BANFIELD: No matter whose story is true in the house, what happened outside the house is appalling, without a question. I think that`s why so
many people are so fascinated by this case. All right, hold your questions right there for a moment. There is this other story that just came at us
like a -- like a bull this week. It has something to do with this. If you kidnapped a 14-year-old girl, you raped her daily for nine months or if you
helped someone do that, life sentence, right?
Not for Wanda Barzee. See where Wanda`s fancy new home is and what Wanda has ordered up for lunch and find out who is paying for her brand-new life
on the outside. Here`s a hint, you are. That`s next. But first, tonight`s CNN hero, Luke Mickelson.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[19:50:04] LUKE MICKELSON, CEO AND EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, SLEEP IN HEAVENLY PEACE: Mattresses, sheets.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
MICKELSON: I`m just a farm kid from Idaho. I grew up here. What I didn`t know was there`s kids next door who are struggling kids sleep on the floor.
I was making six figure salary but I fell into this need that I discovered. It wasn`t being fulfilled by anybody. This bottom to top. I quit my job
because I wanted to do this full-time. And the need I have isn`t financial. The need I have is seeing the joy on kids` faces knowing that,
you know, I can make a difference.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BANFIELD: Last night we warned parents nationwide about a sex offender who just walked out of prison. A sex offender responsible for one of the most
horrendous kidnapping and rape cases in this country`s history. And tonight, we know exactly where she is. Wanda Barzee just checked into a
hotel in the City of South Salt Lake in Utah. It happened to be miles from the home where her husband kidnapped 14-year-old Elizabeth Smart in the
middle of the night using a knife to do it.
He led Elizabeth into the wilderness where Wanda helped him to rape her every single day right there at his side. That couple held Elizabeth Smart
captive for nine months, starving her, force feeding her drugs and alcohol and threatened to kill her if she fled and again, remember, she was raped
every day. Because according to that violent rapist Brian David Mitchell, god had ordered him to kidnap more than a dozen teenage girls and make them
his virgin brides.
And if you ask Elizabeth Smart`s family, 15 years behind bars hasn`t changed the woman who helped to make this happen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ED SMART, ELIZABETH SMART`S FATHER: All indications are, she`s still of the same mind set she was when she pushed Brian to come down to the house
and abduct Elizabeth. I`m just really grateful that he -- that there this Federal parole agent that`s out there that will be keeping tabs on her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: Tom Fuentes, I still just cannot believe it. I get it. The math is the math, she served all the time she could. Their hands were tied
but now she`s out. And did you see that picture of her? She`s now being put up more than likely by the government at a hotel where lots of families
could be staying and they probably paid for that nice little meal that she ordered up. How on earth does a sex offender get to stay at a place like
the in town suites when a family might pull in exhausted and say we want to check in here too.
And oh, by the way, you know, junior, will you go down the hall and get ice and, you know, maybe something from the vending machine? Tom, how does
that happen? How is it that we`re all supposed to feel safe at a hotel like this if Wanda Barzee is allowed to be put up there?
TOM FUENTES, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, you`re not. And I think the message here is we have politicians in this country pass laws,
governors signing laws that are just so dangerous the members of the public, and it`s almost like they don`t care. You know, the fact she was
not able to be held in a prison longer for the rest of her life, in fact, and the fact that then she`s now in a situation where she could once again
be a predator.
You know, being a sociopath that she clearly is. And --
BANFIELD: But Tom, look at your screen. That picture, that mug shot was the final kick in the teeth, so to speak to all of us. That`s her
photograph for the sex offender registry. A big toothy grin as if to say I got this and I`m back out and there is nothing you can do about it. By the
way, it got me thinking she was homeless before she went in and now she gets a place that costs about 1200 bucks a month all on our dime because
she doesn`t have any money of her own.
And she gets to pick up her Social Security checks, doesn`t she?
FUNETES: Yes, yes. It`s just -- it`s unfortunate that, you know, we have this situation, we have it in many states and many cities in this country
and sanctuary cities and, you know, for someone like me that`s spent four decades in law enforcement to see these people like her on the loose get
turned back out or have politicians say well, really, she ought to be let go and she`s paid her debt to society and all of this, it`s just horrible.
I mean --
BANFIELD: I think we all, you know --
(CROSSTALK)
FUENTES: When you see these situations, it`s hard to just not to be so aggravated.
BANFIELD: Don`t -- yes, don`t let the pink track suit fool you. That woman is a rapist. That woman is a kidnapper. That woman according to
Elizabeth Smart still carries around the manifesto of her husband that said god told him to collect/kidnap 15 little girls to be his wives.
[20:00:06] Still carries it around. Never went --
(CROSSTALK)
FUENTES: Yes.
BANFIELD: That`s Wanda Barzee. Ah, it`s so frustrating. It is just so frustrating. But you all know what she looks like.
END
