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Cohen Has Spoken to Mueller Team Multiple Times for Hours; Trump Abandons Measured Tone, Targets Accuser; Trump Suggests Some Russia Documents May Not Be Released; Pompeo: Not Ruling Out Military Action Against Iran; NYT: Rosenstein Recorded Trump in White House, Discussed with Cabinet Invoking 25th Amendment to Oust Trump. Aired 1:30-2p ET

Aired September 21, 2018 - 13:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


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[13:31:20] WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: From allies to enemies. There are reports President Trump's former attorney, Michael Cohen, has spoken with the Special Counsel Robert Mueller's team several times over the last month alone.

Cohen's lawyer, Lanny Davis, tweeted this: "Good for Michael Cohen providing critical information to the Mueller investigation without a cooperation agreement. No one should question his honesty, veracity and loyalty to his family and his country over POTUS."

When asked about this, the president's current lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, said, quoting, the president's lawyer, quote, "Cohen is a professional deceiver. If anyone believes him, it's only because they want to get President Trump so badly, they have lost any sense of fairness or objectivity."

Let's bring in our legal analyst, former federal prosecutor, Laura Coates.

Why do you think he has been meeting, according to the reports, for hours and hours on a voluntary basis? There's no cooperation agreement apparently.

LAURA COATES, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: The word voluntary is suspicious. He has not been sentenced yet. Thought he doesn't have a cooperation agreement compelling him, he has contractual obligations to do so. He is providing information being cooperative, hoping that somehow when he is sentenced in the future, he will be sentence in December, and he'll have much more of an amicable allocution by the prosecution, saying this person is deserves a lenient sentence than he would if he had not cooperated. This is a fair exchange that usually happens. People have to understand if you were to provide information, you have a cooperation agreement and it can be verbal, and an expectation that you will do all you can to help the government and this is happening here.

BLITZER: The sentencing is December 12th when he is scheduled. Even though he doesn't have to do all of this cooperation, he is doing it on a voluntary basis, hoping that, in the end, the U.S. attorney for the southern district of New York, and the special counsel, Robert Mueller, and others, are so grateful, they send a note to the judge, you know what, reduce the sentence.

COATES: Yes. I want to be clear. It doesn't mean what he has to say is not credible to the prosecutors or that they have an expression of gratitude that would not be a warranted sentence. Ultimately, they made the decision that this person did not get the benefit of a cooperation agreement or a reduced sentence through the plea agreement he issued. They are waiting and have the power to do so. If he cooperated, if it turns out that his information can be corroborate and substantiated, it will go to his benefit. It's pretty routine this happens.

BLITZER: It was a one-two punch for President Trump. Take a look at this. We have a graphic and I will put it up on the screen. You can see that not only Michael Cohen is now cooperating after he pleaded guilty, but Paul Manafort pleaded guilty to eight felony counts the other day. The former Trump campaign chairman is cooperating. Michael Cohen is cooperating. Take a look. Allen Weisselberg and David Pecker, the CEO of American Media, the parent company of the "National Enquirer," he has immunity in exchange for his testimony. And Allen Weisselberg, who has been the chief financial officer of the Trump Organization, he's cooperating. He has immunity as well. This must make the president nervous.

COATES: I'm sure. The last three are important because they are linked by the testimony of Michael Cohen. Weisselberg was named in the infamous call, the recorded conversation leaked by Lanny Davis about Michael Cohen and the idea that we want to have David Pecker in case he gets hit by a bus. We want to clear up the agreements they have. The last two, David Pecker and Allen Weisselberg, were named in the conversation with Cohen. They are distinct from Paul Manafort, whose main role was for the campaign in that six-month period. There is the ability to at this point in time, they are linked by the president's own realization that at all fronts, whether in his financial dealings or his organization and corporation, he is being attacked or it's through the idea of using Paul Manafort on the campaign trail. There's one key thread here. Michael Cohen's conversations with David Pecker and about Allen Weisselberg was about campaign finance-related issues and whether or not to suppress information from the American people, and that is the main threat that should make him nervous.

[13:35:42] BLITZER: I'm sure they are all very, very nervous as a result of this.

Laura, thanks very much for the analysis.

Up next, how the Judge Kavanaugh hearings are playing out potentially next week.

Why President Trump, in a major reversal, is saying he may not release classified Russia probe documents after all. The president's former director of legislative affairs, Mark Short, he is standing by live. We have lots to discuss.

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[13:40:42] BLITZER: We are continuing to follow breaking news. The Senate Judiciary Committee has proposed Wednesday for the hearing of Christine Blasey Ford and Brett Kavanaugh. Now a Democratic aide says Professor Christine Blasey Ford may not be able to get to Washington, D.C., until Thursday. We'll keep you updated on all of these developments.

All of this coming as President Trump levels his most-direct attack so far on Kavanaugh's accuser. For days, the president's response was relatively measured and restrained. Today, he tweeted this about Christine Blasey Ford, quote, "I have no doubt that if the attack was as bad as she said, changes would have been immediately filed with local law enforcement authorities by either her or her loving parents."

Let's discuss this and more with CNN political commentator, Mark Short, the former director of legislative affairs in the Trump White House.

Mark, thanks very much for coming in.

MARK SHORT, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Thank you, Wolf.

BLITZER: You worked with the president for a long time. What's your reaction to a clear change in tone as far as all of this is concerned?

SHORT: I think the president is frustrated by the process. More of the frustration should be on Senator Feinstein, somebody who has been in Washington for 25 years and 25 years on the Senate and should know better. And when you get a letter in July and not ask Kavanaugh about it in private meetings multiple times, have public hearings and never asked about it. Have an opportunity to share that letter with Republicans on the committee, and never do that. Then unveil it the week before the vote is supposed to happen. It was a political move.

BLITZER: She was in an awkward position because Professor Ford said to her and said to others, I'm telling you this, but I don't want to go public and I don't want my name out here, I don't want to talk about this. But this is what you should what you should know going into the hearings.

SHORT: She had every opportunity to go behind closed doors with Republican members --

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BLITZER: You know --

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BLITZER: -- as soon as Dianne Feinstein would have violated that agreement, that confidential agreement she had with Professor Ford, it would have exploded.

SHORT: Questions why it leaked in the first place. Keep in mind, Senator Feinstein is not running for reelection against a Republican. She is running against a more left-wing Democrat. She is trying to shore up her support and say, look, I took down one of the president's nominees. It's political important for her. There's a lot of political games being played.

BLITZER: How should this play out, from your perspective as a former Trump White House legislative affairs director? What would you like to see happen?

SHORT: Republicans are bending over backwards to give her an opportunity to testify.

BLITZER: She wants to go second. She wants Judge Kavanaugh to go first. What's wrong with that?

SHORT: Yes. I'm not sure she should be in a position to dictate the terms when there have been hearings that Kavanaugh has had to sit through and answer questions multiple times. They are giving her every opportunity. They're even trying to provide outside counsel to ask the questions so she doesn't feel like she will be politicized by Senators. I think --

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BLITZER: It's not a done deal, the Kavanaugh confirmation. I don't know what's going to happen next week. There are 51 Republicans and 49 Democrats. If you lose one, you're OK, Republicans. Then it's 50. And Mike Pence, the president of the Senate, the vice president, can break a tie. If you lose two and no Democrats vote for Kavanaugh, it's over. There are some Republican Senators who are still on the fence.

SHORT: It's a close margin, no doubt about it. If she fails to testify, Republicans likely will vote to confirm Kavanaugh. Another question, Wolf, is, what do red-state Democrats do? So far, they have not come out and said, but there will be pressure on Senator Manchin and Senator Heitkamp to support the president's nominee here, too.

BLITZER: Senator Donnelly, of Indiana, too.

SHORT: Yes.

BLITZER: Another Democrats.

Very quickly, all of a sudden, the president said earlier he will release all these documents, unredacted. And now, all of a sudden, he is tweeting this morning, you know what, not so fast. I can't do it. The inspector general has to review it. Allies are complaining. He's flipped. Why didn't he have those conversations before the need to reverse the earlier decision?

SHORT: That's a fair question, Wolf. I think he is taking caution because people said there could be sources and methods that would be revealed.

BLITZER: He should have known that early before he announced I'm releasing all these documents, unredacted, it's important, blah, blah, blah. Don't you think -- I mean, if you had been working there and he said, Mark, what do you think, should I do it? Let's review with the director of National Intelligence, with the Justice Department, their procedures to prevent confidential sensitive information from being released to adversaries of the United States.

[13:45:12] SHORT: Right. Those procedures have now been put in place. And --

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BLITZER: Why weren't they put in place earlier?

SHORT: Wolf, there's always -- they can ask the question about this administration often. I think the president responds quickly to the American people.

BLITZER: This time he's responded to his intelligence and law enforcement community --

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: -- Mr. President, not so fast.

SHORT: If he did it in reverse, he would be.

BLITZER: Mark Short, good to have you. Thank you very much for coming in.

SHORT: Thanks, Wolf.

BLITZER: Coming up, as tensions escalate between the U.S. and Iran, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo is now not ruling out possible military action. His one-on-one interview with our Elise Labott at the State Department is coming up next.

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[13:50:16] BLITZER: Next week, President Trump will chair the United Nations Security Council meeting on Iran spotlighting what the White House is calling its violations of international law. Ahead of it, the Secretary of State Mike Pompeo setting the stage. Just a little while ago, he sat down with our global affairs correspondent, Elise Labott, at the State Department, and talked about the hardline the U.S. is now taking against Iran.

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ELISE LABOTT, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: You've had two attacks by Iranian-backed militias in U.S. diplomatic facilities in Iraq. The U.S. has said that it's going to make sure all Iranian troops are going to leave Syria and is willing to stay the course. Are we headed towards a confrontation with Iran?

MIKE POMPEO, SECRETARY OF STATE: Well, Iran has been confronting the world as the world's largest state sponsor of terror for quite some time.

LABOTT: Seems there's an escalation, though.

POMPEO: They have armed militias, the Lebanese Hezbollah and militias in Iraq. They are arming the Houthis in Yemen, launching missiles into the gulf states. The United States has begun to apply economic and diplomatic pressure on Iran to prevent them from doing this. That's our mission. It is true, Elise, we have told the Islamic Republic of Iran that using a proxy force to attack an American interest will not prevent us from responding against the prime actor. That is, we will not let Iran get away with using a proxy force to attack an American interest. Iran will be held accountable for those incidents.

LABOTT: Even militarily?

POMPEO: They're going to be held accountable. If they are responsible for the arming and the training of these militias, we're going to go to the source.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Elise is joining us right now.

Pretty tough words from the secretary of state.

LABOTT: Very tough. That's the hardest I've heard him really -- you know, you said it, Wolf, he's setting the scene for next week where Iran is one of the premiere issues. Not only is President Trump going to chair that meeting, the secretary of state, John Bolton, are both going to be giving major speeches on Iran. That's going to be the real discussion. Secretary Pompeo meeting with the Iranian diabla (ph). I think now what they're doing is Iran is the new Soviet Union, the boogie man of the world, and going against them everywhere, whether it's financial, whether it's in the region, whether it's just meeting with the people and supporting the people, kind of trying to weaken the regime from within. So I think you'll see a big case on that next week.

BLITZER: We used to see, at least in the last few years of the Obama administration, some meetings between U.S. and Iranian officials. Next week, the opening of the United Nations General Assembly, the U.S. will be there, the president of the United States will be there, the Iranian leadership will be there. Any meetings in the works?

LABOTT: None scheduled. There has been a little dance back and forth. President Trump said, like Kim Jong-Un, he would be willing to meet with the Iranians. It doesn't look like the Iranians want to meet with them. What Secretary Pompeo in the interview did criticize is former secretary of state, John Kerry, who, as you know, negotiated that Iranian deal, has been meeting with the Iranian foreign minister and others with other U.S. officials that were in the Obama administration, telling them to stay in the deal, stay the course. Secretary Pompeo very tough on that, really criticizing what the secretary is doing, saying that he should get off the stage, no American should be trying to undermine the president's policy. And he said the real program with Secretary Kerry is that he never treated our enemies like our enemies, and that's what we're doing, Iran is an enemy -- Wolf?

BLITZER: We will have a lot more of your interview today in "THE SITUATION ROOM."

LABOTT: Right.

BLITZER: Thanks very much for that, Elise. Good work.

Coming up, South Carolina in crisis. One week after Hurricane Florence made landfall, waters are still rising, leaving thousands and thousands of people in the path of danger.

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[13:58:33] ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BLITZER: Major breaking news coming into CNN right now, courtesy of the "New York Times." The "New York Times" now reporting a bombshell report. Let me read the lead of the "New York Times" that just posted. "The deputy attorney general, Rod Rosenstein, suggested last year that he secretly recorded President Trump in the White House to expose the chaos consuming the administration and he," Rosenstein, "discussed recruiting cabinet members to invoke the 25th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution to remove Mr. Trump from office for being unfit."

There are a lot of details in this story, but clearly, this is a bombshell. Rod Rosenstein, the number two official, the deputy attorney general of the United States, in this meeting, secretly recording the president of the United States and actually discussing the possibility, according to the "New York Times," of invoking the 25th Amendment to the Constitution that would remove the president from office.

Let's go to our justice reporter, Laura Jarrett, who is monitoring this development.

Apparently, according to the "New York Times," Laura, the -- Rosenstein mentioned this secret recording to some FBI and Justice Department officials.

LAURA JARRETT, CNN JUSTICE REPORTER: That's right, Wolf. This is explosive new reporting from the "New York Times." And he mentioned it to FBI and Justice Department officials, in particular, embattled former FBI deputy director, Andrew McCabe, who documented those conversations contemporaneously in memos, just as former director, FBI Director James --