Return to Transcripts main page
HALA GORANI TONIGHT
Bill Cosby Sentenced To Three to 10 Years in State Prison; Laughter Erupts After trump Starts Speech With Boast; Brett Kavanaugh Denies Allegations Of Sexual Assault. Aired 2-3p ET
Aired September 25, 2018 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[15:00:00] BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN HOST: Hi there. I'm Brooke Baldwin. You're watching CNN. Any minute now the decision will be in. Comedian and
actor, once deemed America's favorite TV dad will be sentenced right this very moment. He is being sentenced for drugging and sexually assaulting
former Temple University women's basketball coach, Andrea Constand. He was convicted in April of aggravated indecent assault. Prosecutors saying he
showed no signs of remorse. Cosby is 81 and legally blind and his age was a major point of contention during his sentencing.
His attorneys want house arrest for him. What's more here, the judge ruled Cosby, a sexually violent predator, which means Cosby must register as a
lifetime sex offender and notify people of his status wherever he lives for the rest of his life. Andrea Constand stood before the court saying her
personal shame of what happened to her was overwhelming. Let's bring in Athena Jones. Talk to us about what's happening.
ATHENA JONES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Brooke, with the high drama, high stakes moment, we're waiting anxiously to hear what Judge Steven
O'Neill has to say about what sentence Bill Cosby will face. His lawyers were arguing he should be sentenced to house arrest. He's 81 years old, he's in
failing health, legally blind, needs help to get around and isn't a danger to anyone except maybe himself. They argue that incarceration would impose
an undue burden. But on the other side the prosecution is saying as you mentioned, this is someone who is not showing any remorse. And going
beyond that they talk about how Bill Cosby abused his position as a mentor. Andrea Constand viewed him as a mentor and took advantage of her and her
trust in him. And so, this is much more than a physical, sexual assault.
Also of course the aggravating circumstances of the drugging that was involved. And so, this is going to be an important sense we are going to
get in a few minutes now. They wanted to see five to ten years for Bill Cosby, a $25,000 fine and want him to pay various court costs, costs of
prosecutions sheriff's cough costs. This means he's going to be required to register as a sexually violent predator for life. He'll have to do
mandatory counseling to deal with this issue and there's going to be notification of the community that a sexually violent predator lives there.
That is separate from the sentence we're waiting to come down now. In this first guilty verdict of a celebrity accused of sexual assault in the #me-
too era. A lot of Cosby accusers said my faith in humanity has been restored by this verdict. Even if you have jurors saying it wasn't about
#me-too, a lot of other folks say because of this environment, this moment in time, more women are more likely to be believed and they point to this
case as the first big case where we've seen that play out with three guilty verdicts.
BALDWIN: This was like the beginning of the beginning for them. Thank you. We're all standing by for the news from this courtroom in
Pennsylvania. Let me bring in some lawyers. Let me just begin, initially I thought that prosecutors were asking for 30 years. Now it's five to ten.
Why the change?
YODIT TEWOLDE, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, it's probably because they're looking at what the judge has probably done in other cases with
other defendants who were similarly situated. You do have Bill Cosby, who is 81. A lot of factors such as his age and disability and maybe even his
fame that could put into question or at risk his safety in prison. And so being realistic and not shooting so high knowing this wouldn't get that --
they want to go with a penalty range that's more reasonable and likely to happen in their mind.
BALDWIN: Effectively it's the rest of his life if he's 81. I've got another voice who just sat down next to me. You're mighty fast. Mark
Geragos is with me and Areva Martin. Mark, just to you, what's happening right now?
MARK GERAGOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: You asked why did the prosecutors come down? Because they were obviously asking for a lot more time.
[14:05:00] BALDWIN: They were.
GERAGOS: Because they have in Pennsylvania, even though this is a state court, they have the very similar thing they have in federal, they're
called guidelines. The judge has got to report that he is looking at, sentencing guidelines say somewhere between 22 and 36 months. If a
prosecutor is asking for 30 he looks like he has lost his mind. They're saying, look, judge, don't go with the guidelines, you only saw a portion
of the evidence that was presented. You're the one who excluded our request to do other stuff. We're going to lean towards double that. And
the thought process, I know prosecutors would never admit this, maybe some ex-prosecutors would, they think it's a negotiating technique. If I ask
for double, I may get half. This judge said this morning my north star if you will is going to be in heartland, that's what the judges call it, the
heartland of the sentencing guidelines, 22 to 36 somewhere in there. My guess is he comes in at 30 months or maybe a little bit less. That's still
a pretty long sentence for an 81-year old man with some infirmities and things like that. In the case that was this old that was brought and
society has finally caught up to him basically.
BALDWIN: Areva, to you, I know this is all swirling and we're waiting for the number of years. I was just reminding somebody of picture pages. I
grew up watching picture pages. This is Mr. Huxtable. This is one who America once thought was the perfect dad, right, who really did a lot for
black America, America and this is a man who has been convicted and is about to be locked away potentially for quite a while.
AREVA MARTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, Brooke, I'm so glad you brought that point up. As we're talking about this as a criminal case, this case has so
much more significance in terms of pop and celebrity culture and in terms of the African-American community. Bill Cosby wasn't just America's dad.
He was a hero in the African-American community, the likes of which I don't know if anyone was on par, on his level at the time that he was at the
height of his game. So, to see him have such a fall from grace, to be convicted of three felonies, to be now deemed a sexually violent predator,
to be facing prison time, is incredibly overwhelming. All of this happening in the same week that we're looking at Brett Kavanaugh and
allegations of sexual assault. As a civil rights lawyer that has been litigating sexual harassment, sexual assault cases for two decades, this is
an incredibly moment to see Bill Cosby prosecuted in a state court and to be convicted, it is almost impossible for a celebrity of his stature to be
convicted. Jurors just don't like sending their celebrities to jail. So, I don't think we can overestimate the significance of this moment.
GERAGOS: There's another-- Areva, you two may be too young to remember this but there is another component of this. This man suffered probably
the worst thing any parent can suffer. His son, Ennis, was murdered. There was a much publicized trial about it in Los Angeles almost 20 years
ago maybe longer, and he went through that. This is a victim. This is somebody who has suffered the worst thing any parent can go through. You
combine that with his stature along the way. I'm old enough to remember "I Spy" and him breaking the barriers there as well. He spans so many
different areas from victim to pioneer to kind of national scold when it comes to the African-American community to, you know, somebody who was a
promoter of education. And then to have this fall from grace is just stunning.
B: Add another title, sexually violent offender.
MARTIN: OK, Mark, I got to push back on you.
GERAGOS: She's not young enough to remember?
MARTIN: I'm young enough to remember but being a victim and losing a child, there's no correlation between that and being a sexual predator.
GERAGOS: I don't disagree. It's an amazing shift of the prism that you look at him through.
BALDWIN: Let me ask everyone to stand by as we wait for the news for the sentencing for Bill Cosby next.
[14:10:00] BALDWIN: Here we go, covering our breaking story, the sentencing of Bill Cosby. Let's go straight to Athena.
JONES: Bill Cosby being sentenced of three to ten years, pay a fine of $25,000 and court costs that I just mentioned. The prosecution wanted five
to ten years. This is three to ten. That's substantially close. The judge handed down the sentence today and said this was a serious crime.
Mr. Cosby, it has all circled back to you. The day has come, the time has come. You'll remember Cosby is 81 years old, he's been convicted of
drugging and sexual assaulting Andrea Constand. They're still in court so we don't know what more details will emerge but this is the key detail,
three to ten years in state prison. Brooke?
BALDWIN: Let's get our lawyers to react. Areva, to you. Three to ten in state prison. I know there was a thought he'd be under house arrest. This
is in state prison.
MARTIN: I never had any expectation that he would receive home confinement as his team requested and argued before the court, I agree with Mark given
the pending appeal that he'd have to be careful what he said if he were to take the stand. He could've taken the stand without ever admitting guilt.
The fact that he didn't do so and offer any apology about the pain that Andrea Constand is feeling or has experienced, he didn't ask for mercy,
didn't ask for leniency, I can't help but believe that that played some part in the decision that the judge has made. I think this sentence is
[14:15:00] I think the victims, the 60-plus women that have accused Bill Cosby of sexual assault will feel vindicated, will feel like today justice
was served. A very powerful man who has been and as we now know is a co convicted sexual predator will now be facing significant prison time. This
is a big day for the #me-too movement.
BALDWIN: It is a big day. Yodit, three to ten.
YODIT TEWOLDE, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Can you hear me?
BALDWIN: Go ahead.
TEWOLDE: I'm not surprised at all. He chose not to say anything, which of course the judge shouldn't consider, but you can't consider something
someone never says. But during the break I'm scrolling through Twitter and I'm looking at people actually saying and applauding the sentence and in
the same breath wanting to defend Kavanaugh. It a defining moment when you have someone like Cosby going to prison and someone like Kavanaugh going to
the highest court in the land. Anyone who applauds this cannot defend --
BALDWIN: We have a camera in the courthouse. Mark Geragos, do you think we might get a shot of him?
MARK GERAGOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I don't know. When they say three to ten, they focus on the three. I don't know if they remand him, put him
into custody immediately or let him stay out while out on appeal? That to me is the real key here.
BALDWIN: When will we find that out?
GERAGOS: Immediately. He's either walking out of this courtroom and that means he's got bail on appeal and he's going to self-surrender or they're
going to put him into custody immediately, which is called a remand.
BALDWIN: If he were to be heading straight to state prison, how do you think Bill Cosby would fare in prison?
GERAGOS: Bill Cosby will do very well in state prison, believe it or not.
GERAGOS: Bill Cosby, his celebrity translates into a state prison. This is not a child molest, which is the worst thing if you go into state
prison. Generally, you'll never survive your sentence or five times out of ten you won't survive your sentence. Because of a lot of the things that
he's done, he will do OK there. Physically his h is a concern. State prisons have become kind of this waste land for the medically infirm.
California is a good example. We have all these three-strikes people, we have become almost like a medical facility for the aged. Physically
there's a concern for his health.
BALDWIN: Do you think they would put him in population?
GERAGOS: There's a designation, 10-k, 10-9, a protective unit. The last thing they would want is for him to be shanked in the department so they
probably would isolate him somewhere. At least for me and someone who practices in the criminal justice system, it's an interesting message if he
doesn't let him stay out on bail. Like I said, I was surprised --
BALDWIN: You think it's interesting if he sends him straight to prison.
GERAGOS: Yes, I think it is.
BALDWIN: Do you think he will be?
GERAGOS: No, I don't. I was surprised when he was convicted that he didn't get remanded and put into jail then. I don't think he's going to
let him stay out on bail, but if he does, we'll have a whole different discussion.
[14:20:00] BALDWIN: Stand by for that. Areva back over to you. We just heard Bill Cosby has been sentenced to three to ten years in state prison.
He'll pay a fine of $25,000 and according to what the judge said in court, the day has come, the time has come. We're just waiting to see who may
walk out of those courthouse doors. Areva, what's happening behind those closed doors right now?
MARTIN: I think the determination is being made about what happened to Bill Cosby immediately. Does he go into the custody of law enforcement and
start to serve his time, does he get processed and start to make his way to whatever penitentiary he'll be assigned to? We know his team has filed an
appeal of the trial but there's also likely to be an appeal of the determination he's a sexually violent predator. The law in Pennsylvania is
someone in flux as it relates to the use of this determination. We know that Cosby as team has argued that it is an unconstitutional determination
so we should expect to see multiple appeals as a result of Cosby as conviction, so not just the conviction on the three counts but also an
appeal of this determination. Carries as we talked about a lifetime being registered as sex offender, community alerts when he goes into the
community, lifetime counseling.
We also know that the prosecutors asked that Cosby be forced to undergo a psychological evaluation. So, in addition to the prison time they asked
for, they also asked he be psychologically evaluated. He refused to participate in the evaluation that was done in pre-sentencing hearing by
the state of Pennsylvania as they were trying to determine whether he should be deemed a sexually violent predator. We don't know whether the
request of the prosecutors to have him undergo that evaluation has in fact been granted. But it's very clear. Prosecutors believe Bill Cosby is
still dangerous. They're not buying his argument about his age, about him being legally blind. They have consistently maintained that Bill Cosby is
a sexually violent predator and that not only should he face jail time, he should be given counselling to address his proclivities toward violence.
GERAGOS: I don't know, you guys called me on short notice, but I will tell you that at least in California the designation of a sexually violent
predator has enhanced supervision -- not just supervision over being just a registered sex offender. Registered sex offender you've got to apply every
year, notify your movements, the victim has certain rights things like that. Sexually violent predator carries with it this idea that before
you're released, before you can ever get paroled, before they will put you back into the community, you have to jump through all kind of psychiatric,
social work hoops. That is probably why they will appeal that designation --
BALDWIN: Not have him deal with all that.
GERAGOS: Arguably it can be a life sentence if there's no remedial action.
BALDWIN: Let me bring in Kathy McKee, who has accused Cosby of attacking her in a hotel room in 1974. She has filed a defamation lawsuit against
Cosby and defense team that is now headed to the U.S. Supreme Court. Thank you so much for being with me. How are you feeling right about now
as he's being sentenced?
KATHY MCKEE, ACCUSED COSBY OF ATTACKING HER: Thank you. I'm very happy to be able to be here today. Just listening to this is stirring up some very
difficult and deep emotions for me. Because I was a part, I saw the violence in Bill Cosby when he attacked me and it's hard, it's very
difficult to try and make it go away. It surfaces -- I was doing very well holding it together until I began to hear these last few words.
[14:25:00] Being attacked in 1974 by Bill Cosby, who was at the time my good friend I thought, my buddy, someone I worked with, was a horrible
thing to happen. It's caused me a lifetime of problems emotionally, work issues, being in the industry, the television business, it's been very
difficult on me. I feel a great deal of sorrow for all the women that this has happened to and not just with Bill Cosby but everywhere. I'm just
struggling to keep going every day. I'm happy the judge sentenced Bill Cosby accordingly and I'm grateful to Andrea for standing strong.
BALDWIN: I appreciate you being open with your emotions on television. I appreciate your -- essentially for a lot of women it never goes away. As
easy as it may be for outsiders looking in, OK, he's been sentenced, chapter closed, vindication for survivors like you, it's sorrow as well it
MCKEE: It hurts. It's painful. It's an attack, it's a rape. It's an attack on your body. It's very scary when a man like Bill Cosby who at the
time was a big, strong man, to attack you in a room, it's terrifying. I actually at the time thought he was going to kill me because I really
thought that he had to have lost his mind in order to do something like this to me. It's horrible. And then the fear of being so afraid for 40-
something years to tell anybody about it, to say anything because nobody believes us. Nobody -- they think, oh, Bill Cosby, oh, America's dad. You
know, a fine man. Oh, come on, how could he do this to you? It's a mess.
BALDWIN: Do you feel believed now?
MCKEE: You know, Brooke, I'll tell you, there are people out there, I've read some of the comments, I've seen the social media. There are still
people who believe that it's not possible for Bill Cosby, that somehow, we're all lying and making this up. It's a horrible situation. I don't
understand why people don't believe women when they say something like this has happened to them because what benefit could it be? How could you gain
from it? I don't understand it, I don't know why. I do think there are still a lot of people who still don't believe us. I still believe that.
BALDWIN: There are those people and there are those who said out loud the time has come. He's been sentenced to three to ten years in state prison.
This is the Bill Cosby and, my goodness, how the seemingly mighty can fall. Do you feel like justice has been served?
MCKEE: Well, in a way. It's a strange -- I have a very strange feeling about it.
BALDWIN: Describe it.
MCKEE: I feel as though -- I feel that justice has been served for Bill Cosby. I suffered for 40-plus years. He's got three to ten years, I think
you just mentioned. He has no remorse, he shows no remorse whatsoever. He's not sorry at all. He's not sorry? You know, he's not sorry about
what he did to anybody.
BALDWIN: Would that make it better if he said that?
MCKEE: I think it would make it better, yes. I think it would be a lot better if he would address me and the other women that he's done this to
and say, you know, I was nuts, I have a disorder, I -- you know, anything. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to do this to you. It was a mistake. I should
have been getting treatment, which I don't accept that either because with Bill Cosby as money and fame and power, he could have gone to another
country even and got treatment and got better. So, I don't know. It's a very confusing, difficult time. I am glad that Bill Cosby was convicted
and I'm grateful that the judge has given him this time, and I say a prayer for all of us women that have been affected by this through Bill Cosby's
BALDWIN: I'm wondering, too, this is my last question as we've been covering women speaking up and this #me-too movement, Kathy, and you all
were some of the first in this major instance. And just your thoughts on how this movement since all of you came forward, how this has evolved in
this country over time.
MCKEE: Well, you know, Brooke, you're absolutely right. We were, you know, Cosby's case was one of the first. We were one of the earliest. I
was one of the first people to come out with the Bill Cosby case. I really didn't do it for any kind of movement or any kind of glory. I did this, I
spoke up because I saw a few other women speak out and just be put down so horribly by a few people who came forward to protect Bill Cosby and I felt
so sorry for the women who had suffered that I just decided that I was going to speak up for them and help them and say it happened to me also. I
can only pray to God that somehow our world that we live in now can make some changes and some shifts and we can all look and see our mothers, our
sisters, our daughters in the faces of some of these victims, of some of these wen survivors and straighten it up and just stop it.
HALA GORANI, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: Well, you've been watching our sister network CNN USA's coverage of the sentencing of comedian Bill Cosby. He
was a fixture on American television. America's dad as you heard there. My colleague Brooke Baldwin call him and he is now a convicted sex
offender, sentenced to three to 10 years in state prison. Prosecutors said the entertainer have shown no remorse after his conviction for drugging and
sexually assaulting Andrea Constand in 2004.
Earlier, the judge had ruled, and this was an indication as to whether or not he would be getting hard time, because earlier, the judge had ruled
that the 81-year-old Cosby must now be classified as a, "sexually violent predator." We'll have more coverage on Bill Cosby and his sentencing today
in a U.S. court al little bit later.
But there's a lot of news to get through. A lot has been said in New York today that I want to bring you up to date on the American president, Donald
Trump gave a speech at the United Nations General Assembly and he made his America First policy crystal clear at the U.N. His speech before the world
body praised U.S. sovereignty and slammed global institutions.
He also touted American accomplishments and took aim at those who he says impede the sovereign rights of nations. Trump saved his harshest rhetoric
for Iran. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The corrupt dictatorship in Iran. Iran's leaders sew chaos, death, and destruction. They do not
respect their neighbors or borders or the sovereign rights of nations. Instead, Iran's leaders plunder the nation's resources to enrich themselves
and to spread mayhem across the Middle East and far beyond.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Well, Jamie Rubin is contributing editor for Politico and a former U.S. assistant secretary of state and he joins me now from Washington. A
lot to get tough because we heard there his harshest critique aimed at Iran. That was not a huge surprise. We know his aide and adviser, Stephen
Miller, played a big part in drafting the speech.
But then he said in the starkest terms yet, that essentially the U.S. reject globalism and embraces patriotism. I mean, this is -- it's- he's
never said it in a clearer way, has he?
JAMIE RUBIN, CONTRIBUTING EDITOR, POLITICO: Well, No. I think that Americans have always regarded the United Nations in a careful way.
Previous presidents have tried to distinguish between American interests and support that we provide the U.N. as being in America's interest.
But Donald Trump today, the president, tried to almost imply that participating in the U.N.'s activities is somehow not patriotic. And I
think when he tried to talk about the success of the United States, instead of having the world laughing with us to a degree it was laughing at us.
I think the international community really has not taken well to the idea that the work of the U.N. and the activities of -- on climate change, on
international criminal court, on human rights that the world body does, all of those things Donald Trump has pulled us out of, pulled the United States
out of. And so there's a certain discomfort level with that in New York.
GORANI: And for our viewers who did not watch Donald Trump's address to the UNGA, he started his speech like he starts usually his speeches at
campaign rallies where really die hard Donald Trump supporters crowd giant arenas in America. This was a completely different audience. Some might
say he misread the room right from the get-go.
I think we have that sound where he says, you know, my administration has accomplished more than any other in American history. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: My administration has accomplished more than almost any administration in the history of our country. America's -- so true.
Didn't expect that reaction but that's OK.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[14:35:02] GORANI: So the Twittersphere lit up, especially Trump critics saying, look, the world is laughing at us.
RUBIN: It was a question. I'm sorry. I didn't hear it.
GORANI: Yes, no. I mean, it's essentially he got laughs but maybe not the laughs he was expecting.
RUBIN: Exactly. Look, I think you said it very well, Hala, he misread the audience. The international community does not think that Donald Trump's
administration has been that successful. They look at what he's done and they see difficulties. They see the United States pulling out of the
environmental Paris Accord pulling out of efforts to support the international criminal court, other bodies, and they don't understand what
he's referring to.
But the funny part is and this is another part of his speech that I know that you would have asked me about, so I'm just going to bring it up here
is that they support what he's been doing on North Korea and he talked about that today and the international community is probably quite pleased
that today, he's talking about a peace agreement with North Korea, solving the North Korea problems diplomatically. When last year, he was at the
United Nations and people thought there might actually be a war.
GORANI: Yes. Well, he was calling Kim Jong-un who today, he said, displayed courage, last year, he was calling him rocket man and the rest of
it and threatening or using threatening terminology aimed at Kim Jong-un.
Macron today said something interesting, the French president. Because essentially he said and I think we have the sound, anybody who doesn't
respect the Paris Accord, which would mean the United States, Trump pulled America out of the climate accord, signed in Paris a few years ago, that no
trade deals should be signed with those countries. Listen to Emmanuel Macron.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
EMMANUEL MACRON, PRESIDENT OF FRANCE (through translator): Let's -- for an example, stop signing trade agreements with those who don't comply with the
Paris agreement. Let's have that our trade agreement take on board our environmental obligations.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: So I mean, is Macron being serious here? First of all, France can't unilaterally pull out of any trade deals. It's part of the E.U. and
then it would hurt the region economically tremendously if they did such a thing.
RUBIN: Well, you're right. But what I think the French president is doing is the undercurrent for that statement by him is essentially to cause the
United States, to rethink its policy on Iran. Now, I'm going to get there. It's a little complicated.
Basically, Macron is angry that the United States view about the Iran agreement were we're going to pull out of it is causing European countries
and European companies to be suffering the consequences. And his view is, the United States don't want to be part of the agreement, fine, but don't
penalize our companies.
So I think he's trying to say is you're pulling out of this global environment agreement. Well, maybe we need to punish your companies. And
I think the whole issue of what the United States is doing and the international community with our European allies is going to get tougher
and tougher because the French and the British and the Germans are furious that we are imposing our will on them with the Iran agreement where they
made an agreement.
We shared in that agreement and then suddenly the United States pulled out of it and is trying to penalize French, German, and British companies for
an American decision. That doesn't sound like Trump's sovereignty policy right there. And so I think what the French government is trying saying is
you can't have it both ways. You can't say you want to do your own stuff and affect your own countries and let us do our own stuff and affect our
own countries when you're trying to penalize our companies.
GORANI: Well, the fault lines have become starker, I would say in this UNGA session today. By the way, the Iranian president, Hassan Rouhani was
speaking as we were on air covering our breaking news there on Bill Cosby.
I'm looking, the big headlines. He is saying that the Iranian president, Rouhani says, we live in a world with rulers who have xenophobic tendencies
resembling a Nazi disposition. Obviously referencing Donald Trump. What's the future of this Iran deal? Is the deal dead now that the U.S. is
definitely walking away from it? And even imposing more sanctions starting in November?
RUBIN: Well, I don't think so. I think the deal is not dead so far. It's been a long time since the United States pulled out of it. And the Iranian
side has not begun ejecting the agreement. In other words, they are complying with this agreement. They're restricting, their nuclear
enrichment, they're accepting the terms.
What they're trying to do and this is what the point of the president of Iran's statement is make it something where the United States is isolated
from its European allies and Iran is on the side of the Europeans. And unfortunately that is still the case.
[14:40:07] The European allies and Iran all agree that this agreement succeeded, that it controlled Iran's nuclear capability, that it served its
purpose. Donald Trump imagines he can get a better deal than was negotiated by Barack Obama as president and there's just no evidence for
that. There's no evidence that Iran is going to give up more with this stick that Donald Trump is welding, then they were by the carrots that
President Obama was offering.
And there's no evidence for that. The Europeans are still on the Iranian side. The agreement is holding temporarily. But whether it'll make it to
another year is still unclear.
GORANI: Jamie Rubin, as always, thanks so much for joining us.
RUBIN: Thank you.
GORANI: Donald Trump faces a big challenge, a couple of big challenges back in Washington, allegations of sexual misconduct against his Supreme
Court nominee have thrown that confirmation into doubt. Brett Kavanaugh has rejected those allegations telling Fox News in an interview he had,
"Never sexually assaulted anyone."
And by the way, this is unprecedented that a nominee for the Supreme Court of the United States should sit down for television interview while
confirmation hearings are ongoing.
Here is what he told Fox.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUDGE BRETT KAVANAUGH, SUPREME COURT NOMINEE: I'm not going to let false accusations drive us at this process. And we're looking for a fair process
where I can be heard and defend the -- my integrity, my lifelong record -- my lifelong record of promoting dignity and equality for women -- starting
with the women who knew me when I was 14 years old. I'm not going anywhere.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Well, the step that Kavanaugh's accuser Christine Blasey Ford took in going public with her accusation has prompted some women to speak out
about their own experiences and why they never reported allegations of assault.
Now, you might remember that after Blasey Ford came out with her allegation against Kavanagh that the president of the United States, Donald Trump
tweeted that he has no doubt that the attack on Dr. Ford was as bad as she says, charges would have been immediately filed with law enforcement.
Our next guest has written about how the kind of response to the Kavanaugh allegations that kind response prompted her to speak out about her
experience of rape which she kept quiet for decades. Here's an excerpt from her piece for the Atlantic. "The life of my daughter is at stake,"
she writes, "Her bodily autonomy is at stake. As a mother who grew up being groped at house parties in the 80s. I want to make sure that whoever
is passing judgment on the next generation has, at the very least, judgment to pass."
Deborah Copaken joins me now from New York. So, Deborah, first of all, thanks for being with us. I found your piece fascinating because it goes
beyond today's news obviously. It's your terrible experience that happened to you after high school, obviously, when you were in college. It was
And you wrote to the man you say raped you after that tweet from President Trump. Why did you do that?
DEBORAH COPAKEN, AMERICAN AUTHOR: Well, I think a lot of us who have been sexually assaulted in the past and at this point, I don't even know anyone
who hasn't. A lot of us who have experienced sexual assault in high school and college have been on edge this past couple of weeks to say the least.
And what happened is I couldn't actually -- I saw Kavanaugh's high school yearbook entry and it so made me so upset that what I did was I just wrote
a letter to the man who sexually assaulted me on the night before my graduation 30 years ago.
I'm about to have my 30th reunion from college. And I just thought, enough. I have -- I bear the weight of this shame alone and I would like
him to bear some of that weight, as well. And I had no idea what would happen in sending a letter. I had to look up his email address on the
But what happened was I wrote a long letter and his response was incredible. He picked up the phone. Maybe 20 minutes after I'd sent the
e-mail and he said, "Oh my God. I'm so sorry." And he just kept repeating that. "I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I had no idea." He had been blackout
drunk. I mean, much probably like Kavanaugh. He probably had no idea what he had done.
In fact, I remember he passed out in my bed afterwards and I had to stay on the floor because I couldn't get this man out of my bed. He was
deadweight. So we had a 20-minute conversation. And when I say this is the conversation and this is the apology I've been waiting for, for three
[14:45:07] You know, you hang up the phone after something like that and you weep. And I wept. And I was shaky for hours afterwards. And then
suddenly, with this apology came a lightness and a lot of -- a lot of our discussion about -- especially even Thursday's Senate hearing, we talk
about who's telling the truth. It's always he said/she said. And he's going to have one story and she's going to have another.
And I think what we forget in all of this, especially with the acquaintance rape, seven out of 10 rapes happen to somebody -- through somebody you
know. And we as a country should really start looking at restorative justice, as a better means of dealing with -- especially campus rape.
GORANI: Can I just jump in? Can I jump in? Because I'm interested -- this happened to you 30 years ago.
GORANI: We're just about you and I the same generation. And I'm very interested in hearing from you what you think is different now. The
reaction you got when you wrote in a memoir some years after the assault happened versus the reaction you're getting today. And this is beyond
Brett Kavanaugh, because Brett Kavanaugh is not being accused of rape. He's being accused of sexual assault when he was in high school.
This is really about this Me Too movement where women are coming out one after the other and saying this happened to me too. And I get the sense
that the reaction from people has shifted. I know that there is still those who are -- who will say you're doing this to tarnish his name or
you're doing this to get attention. But I sense a cultural shift. Do you agree?
COPAKEN: I absolutely agree. And we have to put this into historical context. 1982, the term date rape was barely in its earliest stages. I
don't remember ever hearing the word date rape until 1987 which was then we were all marching and take back the night rallies.
So when I first reported this rape, I was told I had two choices, you can either go to the police and have your reputation put on the line or not
report it. Then later, in 2000, when I wrote about this rape in my memoir "Shutterbabe," some critics took to saying things like, are you worried
you're going to be called a slut? Another critic -- both women by the way --
GORANI: But did you get -- you don't get that anymore, right? Because I mean -- I wonder if the young woman in her 20s said I was assaulted. If
someone would say to her, be careful about reporting it, because you might be called easy, you were drunk, you were asking for it, you were wearing a
mini skirt. Is there less of that?
Copaken: There is a sea change in the way that we are dealing with especially on-campus assault. And I am glad for my daughter who's now on
campus as a 21-year-old that that is so.
GORANI: Certainly. Now, if there is this change, and women are feel freer, unshackled to speak out, what will then change in men's behavior do
COPAKEN: Well, I'm hoping that men can acknowledge the hurt, just like my attacker acknowledged his hurt. I think we need to have a much larger
cultural conversation about how we are teaching sex ed in school. We are teaching all about abstinence but not about love. And then on the other
side, after a rape or assault has occurred, how we deal with that on campus and we need to have -- now that Me Too is out of the -- out of the basket,
so to speak, the next step is to deal with the grays.
We have to deal with these gray zones. It's not black and white. These are very complicated, each rape, each assault is its own ball of wax, so to
speak. And so we have to be able to have a much more open conversation. Now that we're not blaming women anymore. Now, we have to start talking to
boys. And telling them what is consent? How is consent given?
GORANI: Quick last one. Because this is the one -- the question everyone will have. You wrote to the man that you said raped you. He called you
and said, I didn't remember. I was blackout drunk and then this weight lifted off of you.
GORANI: Almost as if you've forgiven him. I guess some people would say, I would never forgive someone who did that to me.
COPAKEN: You know, there was another issue going on which was that I had happened to write him on the night of Yom Kippur, I'm Jewish. And Yom
Kippur is the holiday of forgiveness. And I really do believe in forgiveness. I believe in the idea of if somebody makes amends and sounds
on the phone as he did extremely apologetic, that it behooves me as a human being to accept that apology.
[14:50:22] GORANI: Deborah Copaken, thanks so much for joining us. I really appreciate it. I found your --
COPAKEN: Thank you. It was really fast, great conversation.
GORANI: Thank you. I found your column really interesting in the Atlantic.
All right. I'm being told that we have more news related to Bill Cosby's sentencing as we were discussing before and covering. He has been
sentenced to three to 10 years in state prison for sexually assaulting a woman in 2004. Now, this is an incredible fall from grace for T.V.'s funny
man, America's dad, to convicted sex offender in the United States. Sentenced to three to 10 years.
The question is going to be whether or not he will be released pending his imprisonment or whether he will be led straight to a jail. That is
something that we're going to be finding out soon.
As we mentioned, this court case, of course, captivated the United States. He was convicted and there he is. Are these live images? No. These were
of Bill Cosby walking into court, I believe a little bit earlier.
He has shown no remorse, according to prosecutors after his conviction. He was convicted of drugging and sexually assaulting a woman in 2004 by the
name of Andrea Constand.
Earlier, and this was quite significant, this is what gave us an indication that the judge was leaning toward hard time. Earlier, the judge ruled that
the 81-year-old comedian must now be classified as a sexually violent predator. So, of course, once he had said that, it was pretty much assured
that the judge was going to sentence him to hard time. So three to 10 years in prison for Bill Cosby is our breaking news this hour.
Once we get more from what happened inside the courtroom, we will bring it to you.
I want to quickly talk about what happened here in the U.K. before we end this program. Normally a vote at an opposition party conference in this
country wouldn't make a lot of news, barely nationally, let alone internationally and this is where this program airs.
But when it is potentially big enough to change the push for a second Brexit referendum, people all over the world take notice. In the last few
hours, the opposition Labour Party voted on a policy that would put a new public vote on the table if Prime Minister Theresa May failed to get a
Bianca Nobilo is here with more. Thank you for rushing to the studio.
OK. So yesterday, I was -- we were discussing the fact that top labor officials were saying remain wouldn't be on the table. Now, day two, it
doesn't seem like it's very organized. We're hearing, actually, maybe remain should be -- the second Brexit referendum should be organized if
Theresa May can't get a deal.
BIANCA NOBILO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The deal position Labour Party definitely vacillate on their Brexit strategy and that's because putting it
crudely, they're waiting to see what's most electorally advantageous, because there is just as much of a broad church of opinion to do with
Brexit, in Labour as there is in the Tory Party.
But a key figure came out today saying he would not rule out having remaining in the E.U. on the ballot if there was a second referendum and
that was the shadow Brexit secretary, Keir Starmer who's had plenty of meetings with top E.U. officials like Michel Barnier. So we have to take
that very seriously. And when he came out with that statement, he had rapturous applause. There is huge support within the Labour Party for this
GORANI: And that's if that's if the prime minister doesn't get a deal, right?
NOBILO: Well, the phrasing of the --
GORANI: No deal by March of 2019? No deal by November of this year? When?
NOBILO: So it's a little more complicated with that. Bear with me. So the motion that they passed today says if Labour can't force a general
election, then all options are on the table including a second referendum. So it doesn't necessarily mean that something has to happen in order for
them to throw their support behind the second referendum.
Now, how a referendum would actually occur is another question. If the prime minister doesn't manage to get the deal with the E.U. then all bets
are off, we're in completely unchartered territory. If she does -- she takes it to parliament, parliament then reject it. That's the moment that
probably primary legislation would be introduced to allow another referendum to take place. But took seven months the last time we had a
So we're really cutting it fine. They probably need to extend Article 50 if they want to call a second referendum.
[14:55:01] GORANI: And that's possible? I mean, because Article 50 was triggered in March of 2017. And so therefore, can you extend the period?
NOBILO: You can with the unanimity of the member states of the E.U. And Dominic Grieve, one of the leading legal experts on the Brexit process,
also a member of the prime minister's party says that he has full confidence that they would do that. But there is a mixed opinion.
GORANI: So, it's complete uncertainty. Every possible options is one the table and we are literally weeks now away from crucial, crucial summit.
NOBILO: Yes. And the prime minister maintains there will be no second referendum, but obviously there's already a split between what kind of
Brexit deal the prime minister should get. And then when you introduce this as a credible circumstance that might occur, the fact that there could
be a second referendum, it just further complicates the process. And I think it gets formed to a really increasing sense in the United Kingdom
that perhaps there should be another vote on this.
GORANI: I got to jump in here because we have pictures of Bill Cosby. Bill Cosby, the American comedian, convicted sex offender, being taken into
custody. These are new images coming to us here at CNN and broadcast around the world.
He was America's dad. A beloved, beloved, comedian. And he has been sentenced to three to 10 years in state prison. Gloria Allred, who is the
lawyer for the woman who accused him of sexual assault is speaking. Let's listen.
GLORIA ALLRED, LAWYER FOR THE WOMAN WHO ACCUSED BILL COSBY OF SEXUAL ASSAULT: This is a very important day. Judgment day has come. The court
had said that its efforts and its decision were based on the guidelines and the law of Pennsylvania and the protection of the public. There is an
undue risk to the public if he was given probation. And given the gravity of the offense and other factors, this was present.
So we're glad the judgment day has finally come for Mr. Cosby. Mr. Cosby has shown no remorse. And there's -- there has been no justice for many of
the accusers who were barred from a court by the arbitrations time limit imposed by statute of limitations.
But many of this were breaking up to speak to law enforcement and some of them were chosen to testify as prior bad acts witness so we are very proud
of those who cooperated with law enforcement, did what they could do to have the just result.
Very quickly, we're going to make a longer statement at the hall. I don't know if you want to say anything about the sentence. How you feel about it
and then we'll do the victim impact at the hall. This is Chelan Lasha. Chelan is one of my clients. She testified in the criminal case as prior
bad acts witness. Go ahead, Chelan.
CHELAN LASHA, TESTIFIED AGAINST BILL COSBY: I want in 30 years. But I'm very happy to know that Mr. Cosby will do time in prison. And he is
ALLRED: OK. Good. Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We got justice.
ALLRED: All right (INAUDIBLE) who is also a prior b act witness, again, will give her longer statements at the hall for you. But how you feel
about the sentence right now.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm more emotional than I thought I would be. All I can say is this is going help change the statute of limitations. We're
going to get it abolished and we're going to support what's happening here in Pennsylvania. And this is just going to show victims that they can make
it through and that there's justice at the end and hallelujah.
ALLRED: OK. We're going to -- we'll see you at the hall right after the D.A.'S press conference. Thank you. Yes. OK. Everyone's invited.
GORANI: All right. Reaction from outside the courthouse in Norristown, Pennsylvania. Gloria Allred is an attorney who represents several Cosby
accusers, women who say that Bill Cosby sexually assaulted them. Some of them accuse Bill Cosby of drugging them. But it is Andrea Constand's
accusation that led to a conviction for Bill Cosby ultimately to hard jail time in state prison, three to 10 years.
We were seeing images. Unthinkable just a few years ago. You have to put this in context of who Bill Cosby was for decades in the United States.
This is the first real conviction and sentencing in the Me Too era. Though these accessions predate Me Too and seeing Bill Cosby led away in handcuffs
in that way is an image that those who accuse him of having assaulted them say they waited a long time to see.
You were just hearing from Gloria Allred, who represents many of these Cosby accusers.
That's going to do it for us. There is a lot of news today. Bill Cosby and what's going on as well at the United Nations General Assembly, as well
as all the latest business news headlines.
I'm Hala Gorani. Thanks for watching tonight. My colleague Paula Newton picks up with "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" from New York.