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ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
Two New Allegations Revealed on Eve of Kavanaugh Hearing; Interview with Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont; President Trump: I was Accused by Four or Five Women Who Got Paid a Lot of Money to Make Up Stories About Me. Aired on 8-9p ET
Aired September 26, 2018 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[20:00:08] ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Good evening.
Just hours before a woman goes before the Senate Judiciary Committee, and accuses the Supreme Court nominee Brett Kavanaugh of sexual assault, and with a third accuser coming forward just today, President Trump went before reporters and we're going to bring you that in just a moment because the president certainly made news on a number of fronts.
First, another late development. There's word of a fourth and fifth accuser after a third accuser, as I said, came forward earlier today. We know this from transcripts of questioning of Judge Kavanaugh by Republican staffers on the committee that were just released. One question involving a letter from a woman in Colorado to Republican Senator Cory Gardner about what she says her daughter witnessed.
Here's the relevant passage from her letter and the question as read to Judge Kavanaugh about a night when a group of friends were allegedly at a bar in Washington. That's followed by his answer.
Quote: I will remain anonymous, but I feel obligated to inform you of this 1998 incident involving Brett Kavanaugh. The letter went on to read: They were all shocked when Brett Kavanaugh shoved her friend up against the wall very aggressively and sexually. There were at least four witnesses including my daughter.
Her friend, still traumatized, called my daughter yesterday, September 21st, 2018, wondering what to do about it. They decided to remain anonymous.
Judge Kavanaugh is then asked, did the events described in the letter occur? He responded: No, and we're dealing an about anonymous letter about an anonymous person and an anonymous friend, it's ridiculous. Total twilight zone. And no, I've never done anything like that.
Now, again, this is one of two sessions with Judge Kavanaugh by phone. Democratic staffers were not on the first call. They were on the second but asked no questions.
Judge Kavanaugh was also asked about another alleged incident, this one in Rhode Island in 1985. According to the same transcript, he was asked about Deborah Ramirez, accuser number two, and he told Senate investigators he had a, quote, friendly relationship with Ramirez but they were, quote, not friends. He denied her allegations as he does all of them.
The White House has just responded to this. I want to check in with CNN's Jim Acosta outside Trump Towers here in Manhattan.
So, Jim, what is the White House now saying?
JIM ACOSTA, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, they are issuing response at this point to this latest allegation that apparently involves or allegedly involves a woman from Colorado and I can just read it to you.
It says: This allegation came in the form -- some of the structure of this comment is really almost lifted out of that transcript you just read, Anderson. It says: This allegation came in the form of an anonymous letter to a senator about an anonymous person and anonymous friend. Under oath, Judge Kavanaugh denied the allegation of acting violently toward a woman and had no recollection of socializing with a woman from Boulder, Colorado.
So, Anderson, yet another denial of another allegation of sexual misconduct aimed at Judge Kavanaugh, but, Anderson, at this hour, as you know, we're getting very close to this high-stakes hearing tomorrow up on Capitol Hill, the allegations are piling up, Anderson.
COOPER: Right. We should point out this allegation that we've just been talking about, the alleged one that allegedly happened in Colorado was actually much later in the judge's life when he was working with the Starr investigation.
ACOSTA: That's right, and to the allegations that you were just talking about, what we know from looking at that transcript, that's been released, is that Judge Kavanaugh is denying all allegations of any abuse. At this point, the only thing he's really saying at this point is this prepared remarks, he's going to be delivering tomorrow which we've gotten a sneak preview of, which says he's going to acknowledge that he did engage in some behavior that make -- that he says makes him cringe thinking back on his days in high school.
But up until this point, Anderson, he his not acknowledging or fessing up to any allegations of misconduct at this point.
COOPER: It is interesting. I mean, is that the same thing that he said during his interview with Fox News? Because, I mean, the bit that sticks out to me was sort of his recollection of his time in high school as being all about focusing on studies and sports, no indication of anything that made him cringe.
ACOSTA: That's right, Anderson. I think that is the -- that is the item that stands out the most in if those prepared remarks that he's expected to deliver tomorrow, is that he talks about behavior he looks back on and says makes him cringe. I think that's obviously something that's going to be focused on by the senators tomorrow, at least on the Democratic side, when they have a chance to question Judge Kavanaugh. The question is, well, what parts of your high school days are you talking about when you say there are aspects of your past that make you cringe? It is a step forward, I think, no doubt about it, versus what he said
in that Fox News interview where he just didn't use words like that, obviously, Anderson. And so, I think that is obviously going to be a very key part of tomorrow's hearing.
[20:05:01] COOPER: Now, the press conference the president gave this evening, his answers were full of contradictions calling this a con job and the same time saying that he was leaving an open mind.
COOPER: Right. That's right. This was typical President Trump trying to have it sort of all ways and making statements and then on the back end of those statements trying to cover himself for, you know, perhaps political purposes.
And one thing he did say, question from me, Anderson, is that he is keeping somewhat of an open mind about this hearing tomorrow and what Christine Blasey Ford has to say with respect to her allegations aimed at Judge Kavanaugh.
But, Anderson, I think no question about it, when you look at what the president said earlier today, this was just another example of essentially Mr. Trump siding with the accused and not the accuser. I pressed him on that.
Here's what happened.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ACOSTA: Why is it, Mr. President, you always seem to side with the accused and not the accuser? You have three women here who are all making allegations, who are all asking that their stories be heard. And, you know, if you look at the case of Roy Moore, if you look at the case of one of your staffers, you seem to time and again side with the accused and not the accuser.
Is that because of the many, many allegations that you've had made against you over the years?
TRUMP: Well, first of all, I wasn't happy with Roy Moore. Let's get that straight. But Roy Moore was a Republican candidate, and I would have rather had a Republican candidate win. I was very happy with Luther Strange who was a terrific man from Alabama, but Luther Strange had a lot of things going against him.
As far as women, whether it's a man or woman, these are -- you know, it can happen the other way. Allegations can go the other way also. You understand that. And whether it was a man or a woman 30 years ago, 36 years ago, in fact, they don't even know how many years ago because nobody knows what the time is.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ACOSTA: Now, the president did say he may change his mind on all this after he listens to the testimony from Christine Blasey Ford. But, Anderson, at the same time, it's very obvious that the president is very much interested in watching this hearing tomorrow. He even said during the press conference to all of us that he's going to be watching and even postponed a meeting or talked about postponing a meeting that he has coming up with Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein over that saga. That may be happening on Friday it sounds like because the president wants to watch all of this tomorrow like the rest of us, Anderson.
COOPER: All right. Jim Acosta, thanks very much. Obviously, a busy day tomorrow.
This day -- this day was already remarkable even before the president started talking. I want to start the conversation tonight with former presidential candidate and Vermont independent Senator Bernie Sanders. I spoke to him just before air.
COOPER: Senator Sanders, this press conference, the president in one moment called the allegations against Judge Kavanaugh a big, fat con job. In the next said he was open-minded going to tomorrow's hearing. Which do you think it actually is?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I), VERMONT: I do not judge what President Trump says because I think he's a kind of unstable guy who lies a whole lot of the time, and whatever he says today may well change tomorrow. So I don't put a whole lot of faith or credibility in what he says.
COOPER: I suppose that applies to when he also said that he left the door open to the possibility that he could withdraw the nomination after watching tomorrow.
SANDERS: Look, Anderson, this is where I think we're at. Full disclosure, I announced publicly in Vermont that I would be voting against Kavanaugh very shortly after Trump nominated him because I think he would, if seated, become part of a hard-right majority voting against the environment, voting against women's rights in Roe versus Wade, voting against campaign finance reform.
So I've been pretty clear. I am not supportive of Judge Kavanaugh. But, obviously, what's happened recently raises real questions, and I think where we are now is we have three women, at least three, maybe more to come, who have put their lives almost on the line because when you go forward in this political climate, you're going to be smeared, you're going to be attacked, you're going to be hated by a whole lot of people.
But they did it because they thought it was important to tell their story and their allegations about Judge Kavanaugh. And it seems very clear to me that the choice we have right now for Trump and for Kavanaugh is one of two things. Either Trump withdraws the nomination of Kavanaugh, or else there is a thorough FBI investigation to sort out these allegations.
And if I were Kavanaugh, who denies all of this stuff, I would very much like that investigation so that if I were seated on the Supreme Court, the American people would know these allegations were not true.
COOPER: Does --
SANDERS: I think it, to me, would be unconscionable for Chuck Grassley to go forward with a vote on Friday before we had a thorough FBI investigation.
[20:10:07] COOPER: Just lastly, the president was asked multiple times today what message does this send to women around the country? He never really answered.
Let me ask you that question. What message do you think all of this sends to women around the country?
SANDERS: Look, I think this is a profound issue. It is no secret and no debate that millions of women have been sexually harassed, humiliated, in some cases raped, attempted rape. It is also no secret that historically in this country, when that has happened to women, what the culture said is don't go forward, your family doesn't want you to talk about it, it will be embarrassing, nobody believes you.
That is a culture that has to change. And I don't want young boys or girls in this country who are watching this process and say, wow, this guy may have done all of these things, nobody investigated it, he's now on the highest court of the United States of America. That's wrong.
We want, first of all, to change the culture in this country so that this type of sexual attitude of boys on girls does not happen. But we certainly want young women, if they have been assaulted, if they have been harassed, to come forward with confidence that they will be listened to, that they will be taken seriously. And that is not what we're seeing right here in this process.
COOPER: Senator Bernie Sanders, appreciate your time. Thank you.
SANDERS: OK. Thank you.
COOPER: Let's continue the discussion. CNN chief legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin joins us. Also CNN political analyst David Gergen and Kirsten Powers.
Jeff, what do you make of this knowledge that Judge Kavanaugh has been questioned about now five accusations? Again, nothing's been proven. He's denied it all. I'm wondering what your reaction is.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: I would really discount the two anonymous allegations. I just think it is really unfair to Judge Kavanaugh to expect him to respond to a -- you know, the Rhode Island and Colorado cases. I mean, they are so vague.
They are not -- there is no accusers. I think they are in a completely different category from the three named identified and identifiable women who have all volunteered to testify under oath about what Judge Kavanaugh did. That is extremely serious.
The other two I just don't think in fairness to him he should even have to respond to.
COOPER: Kirsten, do you agree to hat? Obviously, as I said, I want to reiterate, Kavanaugh has denied both of these newly made accusations, or revealed accusation, accusations, I should say, as he has the others.
Do you think the Democrats are going to question him about anything other than Professor Ford's allegation tomorrow or do you think Chairman Grassley will shut down questions about any other claims?
KIRSTEN POWERS, USA TODAY COLUMNIST: I think the anonymous claims are very different than the other claims that we have because the reason that a lot of times people give a lot of credence to women coming forward by name is because of what happens to women who come forward by name. And it's a really perilous process for women.
And so, for a woman to do that would suggest that he's not making it up because women know what's going to happen to them, even if they're telling the truth. Let alone if they're making it up. And in this case, asking for an FBI investigation versus you could make up something that's anonymous and I think if these things really happened, the people need to go on the record.
COOPER: You agree that it's not fair to ask Judge Kavanaugh about anonymous allegations?
POWERS: Yes. I do because I think once you say these allegations, no one can ever -- you can't put that genie back in the bottle. And so, there will be a certain number of people that will always say, well, you were accused of this and I think Jeffrey's right. I don't think it's fair.
COOPER: David, I mean, is there any way to view tomorrow's hearing as comprehensive or conclusive? I mean, you know, given the fact that it's only Professor Ford and Judge Kavanaugh who are going to be speaking. Miss Ramirez is not. Nor is this third person who has written out a sworn statement. I mean, do you envision key GOP swing voters, votes of Collins, Murkowski, Flake, voting to confirm without hearing more about at least those other two?
DAVID GERGEN, FORMER PRESIDENTIAL ADVISER TO NIXON, FORD, REAGAN & CLINTON: Well, it would certainly be disappointing if they voted to confirm without hearing the other two. The president, himself, said today I want to hear the women, plural. And we only have one woman coming forward.
And I do agree that we ought to set aside the two anonymous. That's absolutely, you know, we shouldn't worry about those.
But there ought to be -- you know, Bernie Sanders is right on this one. He, you know, all three women deserve to have a background investigation. Now that we have three and there may be a pattern, you know, we need to dig deeper.
And I must say out of this hearing, out of this press conference today, remarkable press conference, the one thing that was really missing from Donald Trump -- I mean, he essentially did try to have it both ways. He wants to tell his base, look, if we win, I did it, I intervened at the last minute.
[20:15:05] If we lose, it was all those Democrats doing this great con job.
What was missing throughout an hour and 15 minutes was any sign of empathy. Any sign of sympathy and understanding and compassion. And in fact, you know, to salute the three women who have come forward for their bravery.
And so far, as I can tell right now, so far, there have been 15 or 16 women who have -- who have alleged that Donald Trump engaged in sexual misconduct. He's now got three women who've come forward on his top nominee. He's gone to bat for Roger Ailes in a number of cases of sexual -- charges of sexual misconduct.
Best I can tell, at least 25 women who have charged misconduct, he has come, he has agreed to only -- zero of those women. He said zero. All of them were essentially liars, the 25 were all liars and all the men are innocent.
That is -- that signal to the country I think is powerful and I just don't know how Senators Murkowski and Collins will want to be remembered in history. I just -- do they really want to go down as the women who stood up with this president, 15 or 16 allegations?
GERGEN: And stood up for Brett Kavanaugh, three, you know, uninvestigated --
COOPER: Roy Moore, by the way, as well.
GERGEN: Roy Moore. Do they really want to go down in history that way? It's hard.
I have -- I admire both of those women. It's hard for me to believe that they would.
COOPER: Jeff, Democrats who want the FBI to get involved, there certainly doesn't seem to be any chance of that happening, right?
TOOBIN: None at all. None at all. It's so incredible when you read particularly the latest allegation that Michael Avenatti's client brought forward, I mean, it is richly detailed with a number of specifics acknowledged.
The FBI exists to do investigations of what happened in controversial circumstances. That is an allegation that cries out for a genuine investigation. How can you seriously investigate Ms. Ford's claim that this assault took place when you don't even interview the person she says was in the room? You know, Mark Judge.
I mean, this is not an investigation. This is an exercise to try to get Brett Kavanaugh confirmed. And if you look at the staff of this investigation, it's the Judiciary
Committee's Republican staffers. Their job is not to do an investigation. Their job is to get Brett Kavanaugh confirmed. The idea that the Republicans are interested at all in what happened here is preposterous.
COOPER: Kirsten, who has the biggest burden tomorrow, the bigger burden tomorrow, in terms of how convincing they are? Judge Kavanaugh or Professor Ford, or are they equal?
POWERS: I guess it depends on, you know, who's listening. I mean, ultimately, you have two senators this is coming down to who are going to decide, Lisa Murkowski and Susan Collins, about who they find the most credible. I don't know how really anybody can draw a conclusion after this without the FBI investigation, without questioning Mark Judge because otherwise you're just listening to two different people and deciding who you think is the most credible.
The only thing I would say that I think leans more in the favor of Dr. Blasey Ford is the fact that she brought this up in 2012 and in 2013 with friends -- well, with her husband then a friend who has done a sworn affidavit then she also talked about it in early 2016 and 2017. All of these people have done sworn affidavits saying she brought this up. So she'd have to be somewhat psychic and the Democrats, of course, in this con job would have had to know all the way back in 2012 and 2013 all sorts of things were going to happen. That there's no way they could have known happened.
So, it's -- so the theory that's being put forward by the president and the GOP really falls apart very quickly.
David Gergen, thanks. Kirsten, Jeff, stay with us.
I want to get your reaction to something else the president said today about one of, as David Gergen mentioned, his own accusers. Coming up, I'll speak with her. Jessica Leeds is her name. She says President Trump groped her on a flight decades ago. The president mentioned her by name today.
Also ahead, you're looking at a picture of Christine Blasey Ford taking a lie detector test back in August. Today a report with the results of the test was sent to the Senate judiciary committee. I'll talk to the man who administered the test to Professor Ford.
[20:23:51] COOPER: Well, during his news conference today, President Trump not only defended Judge Kavanaugh time and time again, he also mentioned again and again he'd been the victim of false accusations by women in the past.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: But I've had a lot of false charges made against me. Really false charges. So when I see it, I view it differently than somebody sitting at home watching television where they say, oh, Judge Kavanaugh this or that. It's happened to me many times. I've had many false charges.
I had a woman sitting in an airplane and I attacked her while people were coming onto the plane and I have a number-one bestseller out. I mean, it was a total phony story.
There are many of them. So, when you say does it affect me in terms of my thinking with respect to Judge Kavanaugh? Absolutely.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, the president was referring to a particular accusation by Jessica Leeds who said she was that woman sitting on a plane next to then-citizen Trump years ago when she says he groped her.
During the 2016 campaign, candidate Trump had this to say about the alleged incident.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Oh, I was with Donald Trump in 1980. I was sitting with him on an airplane. And he went after me on the plane. Yes, I'm going to go after -- believe me, she would not be my first choice.
[20:25:05] That, I can tell you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Jessica Leeds is with me tonight. Thanks very much for coming.
You were watching the president's press conference today. I'm wondering what went through your mind when suddenly the conversation went to you.
JESSICA LEEDS, SAYS PRESIDENT TRUMP GROPED HER ON AIRPLAINE DECADES AGO: Well, I wasn't too surprised but surprised at the same time because, you know, it's sort of been in the news a long time ago and sort of faded away. But apparently, it rubs him raw and he brought it up again. He got his facts a little bit screwed up, but he has a hard time with reality, anyway.
COOPER: You're saying in what way did he get his facts --
LEEDS: Well, I don't think his book had been published. He wasn't that well-known. His family was important in New York, but he wasn't well-known. And I forget what the second reason was that he was famous and that he'd written the book.
COOPER: The -- one of the other things the president said tonight is the allegations against him, which have been made by a number of women, including yourself, that's really impacted the way he views the accusations against Judge Kavanaugh. LEEDS: No. He has a history. Once again, his own words that have
been recorded not only on, like, the radio shows, Howard Stern, and various articles printed in the paper and interviews that he has done, if he is like during his divorces and whatnot, when he's accused of something, it's deny, deny, deny.
COOPER: That pre-exists his running for president.
COOPER: You're saying pre-exists even these allegations.
LEEDS: Yes, yes.
COOPER: So, you don't buy that it's because he claim -- he says he has had false allegations made against him that he's --
COOPER: -- viewing the Kavanaugh nomination in a particular way.
COOPER: The president was questioned why it took so long for some of Judge Kavanaugh's accusers to come forward. Only now that he's up for this nomination, he's been through several background checks.
Does that -- do you question why it took them so long to come forward?
LEEDS: No, I can relate because my story is so old and I didn't tell anybody until 2015.
COOPER: You didn't tell anybody in your life?
LEEDS: I didn't tell anybody.
LEEDS: Who was I going to complain to at the time it happened? The stewardess? No. The airlines? No. My boss? No.
I wasn't going to tell my family. I was -- I considered him a jerk. I considered him -- I didn't want anything to do with him. But I went on my affairs and I put it behind me and I really didn't think about it.
You know, I was fortunate that it didn't affect my own personal feelings about myself. I didn't feel like I was responsible for what he had done. I think I've said before that one of the reasons why he doesn't remember it is because he probably doesn't remember 90 of the aggressive moves that he's made on women. I don't think most men do.
I think for most men who perpetrate these things, for them, it's scratching an itch. And they fail to comprehend that the damage, the psychological damage, that they are inflicting upon their victims. And it's not just me that can remember what I had on, where it was, how I got out of it. As I said, it didn't make me frightened for myself or undermine my confidence myself. But it could and it did for a lot of women. You hear their stories now. There was one in "The Times" just today.
COOPER: And the details of it, you say, stay with you.
LEEDS: They stay with you. With excruciatingly clear detail.
COOPER: Jessica Leeds, I appreciate you being on. Sorry it's under these circumstances.
LEEDS: You're welcome.
COOPER: Thanks for being with us.
Back now with Jeff Toobin, Kirsten Powers. Also joining us is former Trump campaign aide, Michael Caputo.
Jeff, when the president says he doesn't believe the accusations against Judge Kavanaugh because he, himself, faced sexual list conduct allegations which he's denied, how sound is that logic when it's the president talking about obviously the Supreme Court nominee?
TOOBIN: I think there's an example of the president telling the absolute truth. He doesn't believe these things because he doesn't -- you know, he doesn't like being accused of them, himself. You know, I think he -- you know, this can't be a coincidence that every sexual harassment investigation that he hears about he believes the man.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: -- himself. You know, I think he, you know, this can't be a coincidence that every sexual harassment investigation or -- that he hears about he believes the man. You know, he has a view of gender relations that was set, as far as I can tell, in about 1957, and he sees himself as like this ratpack hero and he sees these women as prey and he has utterly no understanding of everything we've learned about how women react to sexual harassment, how they respond when they're harassed, whether they report, how long it takes them to report. He doesn't believe or know any of that stuff.
He has this view that women are these, you know, predators who are trying to get money out of people like him and that's how he sees the whole scenario. It can't be a coincidence that every single time he rejects the woman's position.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Kirsten, how do you see the President's remarks and particularly him comparing it to the allegations made against himself?
KIRSTEN POWERS, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Oh, I actually -- I think that it's kind of bogus. I think that he what -- if he had never been accused of anything, he would be saying exactly what he's saying now because of what Jeffrey just said. That he is trapped in the 1950s in a world view that is very much a male-privileged view that, you know, that men can kind of do what they want and the women who complain about it are, you know, liars and exaggerators and making things up and are somehow ungrateful to people like Roger Ailes who helped them.
I mean, he defended Roger Ailes well before the "Access Hollywood" tape came out. That had nothing to do with the accusations against him. He talked about Mike Tyson's rape conviction in 1992 in a radio interview and called it a travesty. So it didn't have anything to do with the fact he had been accused.
POWERS: This is his view of the world. And to be honest, this was the view of most people until fairly recently.
COOPER: Michael, I mean do you think calling these allegations a con job sends a bad message to women across the country or survivors of sexual assault who may be afraid to come forward?
MICHAEL CAPUTO, FMR TRUMP CAMPAIGN AIDE: Well, now that we've painted this boy school in Maryland like, you know, the Roman Empire in 40 A.D. and Brett Kavanaugh as Caligula, yes, I think we may have jumped the shark here a little bit.
I mean some of the things that have come out -- the one thing I thought was very interesting in Ms. Leeds' comment, that she says when something like this happens to you, you remember every single detail. But none of these accusers of Brett Kavanaugh seem to remember anything. And all the -- they have no corroborating witnesses. And tons of witnesses who are saying it didn't happen. We've jumped the shark here, Anderson, and it's time to get to a vote.
TOOBIN: That is exactly wrong.
TOOBIN: What he did not --
CAPUTO: I think it's exactly right.
TOOBIN: They remember vividly what was done to them. What they said --
TOOBIN: -- that they did not tell --
CAPUTO: It's not true.
TOOBIN: Let me finish, Michael. They did not tell other people because it is frequently the case that women who are the victims of sexual assaults don't tell other people because they're embarrassed and they don't want to raise the issue. So the idea that the absence of telling other people is incriminating is simply against the evidence of how these things unfold. COOPER: We got to take a short break. Hold on. We have to take a short break. Michael will get the first comment when we come back. Much more ahead.
We've also obtained Christine Blasey Ford's opening remarks for tomorrow's hearing. We'll read some of the key passage, talk about that. Also later, Christine Blasey Ford's polygraph test, there's a photo of her taking it. I'll speak with the former FBI special agent who conducted it, ahead.
[20:37:01] COOPER: As we've been reporting tonight's breaking news about two added accusers, anonymous, comes just hours before the first accuser testifies against Brett Kavanaugh. Late today we obtained her opening statement outlining what Professor Ford says happened to her at a party outside Washington 36 years ago. It reads in part quote, "I went up a narrow set of stairs leading from the living room to a second floor to use the bathroom. When I got to the top of the stairs, I was pushed from behind into a bedroom. I couldn't see who pushed me. Brett and Mark," Mark being Mark judge, a friend of Kavanaugh's. "Mark" she continues "came into the bedroom and locked the door behind them. There was music already playing in the bedroom. It was turned up louder by either Brett or Mark once we were in the room. I was pushed onto the bed and Brett got on top of me."
Her camp goes on to say, "He began running his hands over my body and grinding his hips into me. I yelled hoping someone downstairs might hear me and try to get away from him, but his weight was heavy, Brett groped me and tried to take off my clothes. He had a hard time because he was so drunk and because I was wearing a one-piece bathing suit under my clothes. I believed he was going to rape me. I tried to yell for help. When I did, Brett put his hand over my mouth to stop me from screaming." We're going to hear shortly from the former FBI special agent who administered a polygraph test to Professor Ford. Once again, Judge Kavanaugh denies all of this.
Back with Jeffrey Toobin, Kirsten Powers and Michael Caputo.
Michael, I want to start with you. Just before the break you were saying that accusers, that these accusers don't remember the details like Ms. Leeds said, much of what happened to them. You just heard from Christine Blasey Ford's account. Obviously Ms. Ramirez have talked about alcohol being involved and some gaps in her memory. The Blasey Ford thing does seem pretty detailed, no?
CAPUTO: Well, yes, it was four people, then it was two people. And, you know, I understand that something probably happened to Dr. Ford. I just don't think Brett Kavanaugh was involved. But I -- you know, I was interested to see Jeffrey's interview yesterday about, you know, Michael Avenatti and his new client, Julie Swetnick who apparently as a sophomore in college was hanging out with sophomore high school boys who were drugging young girls and standing in line outside of bedrooms at 10 different parties.
And for some reason Ms. Swetnick can't really remember whether she was gang raped at the first one or the tenth one. And my question to her is, why the heck would you go back to parties where young girls were in a bedroom getting gang raped by teenagers when you're an adult?
TOOBIN: Yes and why do these women wear these short skirts? They -- aren't they just asking for it? Come on, Michael.
CAPUTO: Yes, 10 rape parties -- 10 rape parties Jeffrey. Yesterday Avenatti was a joke. And today he's got somebody serious. Why does he always end up with these clients? I have no idea.
TOOBIN: Because he's famous and people seek him out. I mean I don't think that's any mystery.
POWERS: I don't even know. I mean, it's just this tactic of attacking, you know, a very young woman. I don't -- I just don't understand the thinking behind it except for the fact that for a long time, certainly in the period that these accusations are about, you know, in the 1980s, I went to high school then. This was a time when women just simply were not believed and everybody sounded like Donald Trump and Michael Caputo.
[20:40:12] So if you're going to ask why women didn't come forward, Michael, that's your answer. Just listen to yourself. This is how women got treated --
CAPUTO: Well, I'm telling you this.
POWERS: This is how they got talked about. And so it wasn't --
CAPUTO: With there no witnesses --
POWERS: Stop interrupting me.
CAPUTO: I tell you what --
POWERS: Stop interrupting me.
CAPUTO: I'll tell you what as a father --
COOPER: Let Kirsten finish.
CAPUTO: You're going to call me out like that? Let me tell you this --
POWERS: Yes, I listened to your ranting and raving for two segments. Now you can listen to me. CAPUTO: You don't call me out like that on national television.
POWERS: I know what was like to be a woman during that time period and you don't. So --
CAPUTO: Well I tell you --
POWERS: This is exactly like --
CAPUTO: Would you give me a chance is.
POWERS: This is exactly like what people like Michael always did when black people said there was police brutality.
COOPER: Let her finish Michael the response.
POWERS: They said that black people were making it up until there are videos of it.
CAPUTO: I don't -- listen, I don't get invited on here to be called out by you like this.
CAPUTO: This is inappropriate. All right? Here's the downside of this. All right? From now on, every mother of sons, every grandmother of grandsons, has to fear for the future of their boys because of people like you who sit here and take uncorroborated testimony, uncorroborated allegations, against a decent man and ruin him because it gets you ratings. Enough of that.
POWERS: That's bonkers. Literally --
TOOBIN: I hope -- I hope young men who sexually assault young women get their lives ruined. I mean I'm not worried about that.
CAPUTO: Yes, none of this has been proven. And all you're making are uncorroborated allegations for ratings. It's enough.
POWERS: Can I say another thing?
CAPUTO: I'll tell you what -- I want to tell you something.
POWERS: Michael, really.
CAPUTO: I hope all 16 Republicans watching tonight and all the independents get a chance to see the hearing tomorrow and the 250 whacked out crazy people are going to stand up and scream in the middle of it and remember to vote in the midterm elections because if the House goes blue, this is our life every single day in America. And it's unacceptable. You people have jumped the shark.
POWERS: So here's the thing. This is an argument also that's being made that this was just, like, this is a new one, the ratings thing. But the idea that people are going around, you know, that this is what Democrats do, this is what the media does.
CAPUTO: Is exactly what you're doing.
POWERS: Except they didn't do it with Gorsuch who went to Georgetown Prep. They didn't know the --
POWERS: Stop interrupting me. Seriously.
CAPUTO: Why? It's your turn to interrupt me.
POWERS: So keep quiet for a second.
COOPER: One at a time.
POWERS: No, I mean let me finish. They didn't do it with John Roberts. They didn't do it with Justice Alito. So explain to me that. Like if you're going to claim that this is just what everybody does, it's not what everybody does. It's not even what people do somebody who went to the same high school it happened.
CAPUTO: I can answer that question if you want to challenge me. I can answer that question. You people think you're challenging Donald Trump when you do this and that's not what's happening here. Donald Trump is standing up for his appointee. But so is the entire Republican Party. Today's press conference was Donald Trump's ted talk to Republican Senate leaders. Teaching them how to put quarters in a sock.
COOPER: Let him go ahead.
CAPUTO: Because we are not going to take this from you anymore.
TOOBIN: I think that's totally right. I think Donald Trump is right where the Republican Party is on this. And, you know, good luck to them. And I think the country is a lot more sexist and racist than some of us acknowledge, but Michael, you could not be more right. That he was talking to the Republican Party and the Republican Party agrees with him overwhelmingly when he talks about women that way.
COOPER: Well Jeff Toobin, Michael Caputo, Kirsten Powers, I appreciate the discussion. Thank you all.
Up next, I'll talk with the man who administered this polygraph test to Christine Blasey Ford, ahead.
[20:47:45] COOPER: Attorneys for Christine Blasey Ford today released the results of the polygraph exam she took.
Joining us now is Jerry Hanafin who administered it. This is a photo of her taking it released by Professor Ford's legal team. Mr. Hanafin is a professional polygraph examiner. Prior to that he served for 24 years as an FBI special agent in part in that capacity, the usual caveats about polygraphs apply. Generally, though, not always admissible in court and their use is disputed in the scientific community.
Jerry, I appreciate you being with us. Can you explain for us how the test is administered? Because, I understand she told her full accounts of the allegations first, correct?
JERRY HANAFIN, POLYGRAPH EXAMINER: Sure. Polygraph is essentially three phases. You have your pretest, your pre-interview phase. And that's when you discuss the matter at hand. You talk -- we talked about the allegations. That process can take anywhere from 45 minutes to an hour. You explain the polygraph. You want to assess the person, make sure she's fit to take a polygraph examination.
So the interview prior to the exam, she described the allegations that happened that night. Following the interview, you normally take a short break. If the person needs to use the restroom, get something to drink. And that's when you have your second phase, that second phase is the actual testing phase. You review every question that you're going to ask on the polygraph test with the person taking the exam.
So Dr. Ford knew every question. She was clear with the questions that I was going to ask, specifically about this event. Is any part of your statement false? And did she make up any part of her statement? You conduct the exam.
And then the third phase is if someone does not pass a polygraph exam, it's the responsibility of the polygraph examiner to try to resolve that either with an interviewer and an interrogation. So it's a pretty formal process. It's everything that the person taking the exam is aware of everything that's going on.
COOPER: So you asked her two questions, is that right?
HANAFIN: That's correct.
COOPER: And what were those two questions?
HANAFIN: The questions were, well, to put this in context, Anderson, prior to the exam, she and her attorney, Dr. Ford and her attorney, wrote out a statement about what happened --
HANAFIN: -- the night of the assault. OK? I read that statement and I had Dr. Ford sign that in my presence stating that the statement was true and correct. OK? So my polygraph addressed a specific issue. The specific issue that I was addressing is that statement. So my two questions, the relevant questions asked on the polygraph, were is any part of your statement false? Which she answered, no. And I asked her did she make -- or did you make up any part of your statement? Also what she answered no.
[20:50:08] COOPER: And what were your findings?
HANAFIN: The findings, my professional opinion was in evaluating the data was that there was no deception indicated. It means she passed. I also there is two algorithms within the soft -- the software of the polygraph instrument, the Lafayette polygraph instrument.
One is -- was developed by Johns Hopkins several years ago. And that -- they collect the algorithms collect the data simultaneously as I'm doing the test. The opinion of the Johns Hopkins algorithm was also that she was not deceptive. And there's a second algorithm called OSS, Objective Scoring System. It was developed by Ray Nelson, Mark Handler and Don Craig Paul (ph), whose former director of the Department of Defense Polygraph Institute. That algorithm also stated Dr. Ford passed the exam.
COOPER: Well let me ask you, Professor Ford's reading the account what happened which included in the polygraph report, she claims that or says there were four boys and a couple of girls at the party. That is different than what she said in her letter to Senator Feinstein which is that the gathering included her and four others. Is that discrepancy important?
HANAFIN: I don't know what Dr. Ford had said prior. My total communication with Dr. Ford was strictly that hour and a half two hours of the polygraph. So I don't know what she had said before. Again, you'd have to talk to experts who interview victims of sexual assault. To me from a professional standpoint, as a former FBI agent, I don't think that's a huge discrepancy. We're really concerned, what my test was concerned about was testing what happened in that room that night.
COOPER: And you have no doubt in your professional opinion that, that what she wrote down in her written statement to you and went over with you, that she -- that she believed that, that that is her honest recollection, that she is not being deceptive in that?
HANAFIN: Yes -- she is, she is clear. There is no misconception of her misidentifying who was in that room, correct.
COOPER: And just finally, we said earlier polygraphs are not always admissible in court or rarely admissible in court. They're used to dispute in the scientific community. To those who may not put a lot of weight in these findings what do you say?
HANAFIN: I'll never be able to convince anybody that does not believe in polygraph that it works. The only thing I can say is I conducted the polygraph test in the higher standards. The Department of Defense is the one that does all the research with polygraph that I administer and what is administered in the federal government. The test that I administered which was called the federal U-phase is one of the most validated and highly accurate polygraph tests. So I don't do the research, I don't get involved in it but I rely on the research and the Department of Defense which states that this test is extremely accurate.
COOPER: Jerry Hanafin, I appreciate your time. Thank you, Jerry.
Want to check in with Chris, see what he's working on for "CUOMO PRIME TIME" at the top of the hour. Chris?
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: Hey pal, how you doing?
We have Michael Avenatti at the top of the hour. What does he make about what the President said about him today? What that strategy about, why make the lawyer relevant, especially someone who likes to spar as much as Avenatti. But then we're going to do our best to test the credibility of his client. We have to do that, we owe to the audience it all to fairness. So we're going to do that, we have Avenatti, welcomes that opportunity.
Obviously his client Swetnick is not on a position or of a disposition to come on. Maybe that will happen at some point in the future. So, we're going to do that. Then we'll take the audience through what we're expecting tomorrow and what the biggest challenges are, not just for Dr. Ford, but for Judge Kavanaugh as well.
COOPER: All right, Chris, we'll see that in about six minutes from now. Thanks very much.
Coming up tonight, the President was asked about the moment at the UN yesterday and whether world leaders were laughing at him. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF UNITED STATES: Didn't expect that reaction, but that's OK.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[20:58:09] COOPER: Well, they say always leave them laughing. So we want to end the hour with this, we're not sure if it's the first time the President of the United States has insisted someone was laughing with him not at him. But here we are. Today, the President was asked about this moment from the UN yesterday.
TRUMP: In less than two years my administration has accomplished more than almost any administration in the history of our country. America's -- so true. Didn't expect that reaction, but that's OK.
COOPER: Well, here's the President's take on all those world leaders laughing. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TRUMP: I had a little rustle. As I said, our country is now stronger than ever before. It's true. I mean it is true. And I heard a little rustle. And I said it's true. And I heard smiles. And I said, oh I didn't know there would be that -- they weren't laughing at me, they were laughing with me. We had fun. That was not laughing at me.
So the fake news said people laughed at President Trump. They didn't laugh at me. People had a good time with me. We were doing it together. We had a good time. They respect what I've done.
COOPER: So the next time you wonder if people are laughing at you or with you, just remember according the President. It's easier to tell the difference, because first it starts with a rustle. Then you hear some smiles, whatever that may mean, and the next thing, you know, everyone is having a good time together. Definitely not laughing at you. We'll let you at home have the last laugh with that one.
Reminder, don't miss "Full Circle" our daily interactive newscast on Facebook. You get to pick some of the stories we cover. You can see it weekday nights 6:25 p.m. eastern on facebook.com/andersoncooperfullcircle.
The news continues right now. I want to hand it over to Chris, "CUOMO PRIME TIME". Chris?
[21:00:03] CUOMO: All right, Anderson it's a big and important night. We could be on the eve of the most important night of Donald Trump's presidency.
I am Cuomo -- Chris Cuomo, welcome to "Prime Time".
A dumpster fire burned in New York City tonight.