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Wolf

New Accuser: Kavanaugh Engaged in "Abusive" Behavior; Interview with Kavanaugh Attorney Beth Wilkinson; Rep. Sheila Jackson Lee Reacts to Kavanaugh Accusations. Aired 1:30-2p ET

Aired September 26, 2018 - 13:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:30:00] SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I thought it was most interesting that he says he still hasn't made up his mind. Of course, he will wait and listen to this testimony. But I thought it interesting that he said, what i do know is that I don't think Dr. Ford is part of a smear campaign. So interesting you have Republican Jeff Flake really going against this party by what they have said is a smear campaign -- Wolf?

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: And we just got a statement from all 10 Democratic members of the Senate Judiciary Committee, Sunlen, saying that they have written to the president asking that he formally withdraw the nomination of Judge Kavanagh in the aftermath of this third woman coming forward, Julie Swetnick, with these accusations. "We are writing to request that you immediately withdraw the nomination of Brett Kavanagh to be an associate justice of the Supreme Court or direct the FBI to reopen its background investigation and thoroughly examine the multiple allegations of sexual assault."

Sunlen, I know you're working your sources as well. We'll get new information. Stand by.

We'll take a quick break. When I come back, I'm going to speak to Kavanagh's attorney, Beth Wilkinson. She's here. We'll discuss the latest allegations and more, right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:35:45] BLITZER: More now on the breaking news. A third accuser leveling allegations of sexual misconducts against the U.S. Supreme Court Nominee Brett Kavanagh.

Joining us now, the attorney for Brett Kavanagh, Beth Wilkinson.

Beth, thanks very much for coming in.

BETH WILKINSON, ATTORNEY FOR BRETT KAVANAUGH: Sure, Wolf.

BLITZER: First there was Dr. Christine Blasey Ford, and now a second and a third one. How is the judge reacting?

WILKINSON: He is outraged by this latest allegation. He has never met this woman. He doesn't know Ms. Swetnick. And he didn't go to parties with her. I have received calls myself from women and men who went to high school with him. No one remembers seeing her at any of the parties they attended. And they're absolutely serious allegations if they are true. But if that's so, there's no excuse for her lawyer not going straight to the police. There's no reason for not doing an investigation. And any lawyer worth their salt would go straight to the police or the FBI. And this is outrageous that this is being launched the day before without having some kind of investigation.

BLITZER: Should there be a full-scale FBI investigation, not only of Julie Swetnick's, this third woman's allegations, but the other two women's allegations as well?

WILKINSON: No, no, no. The point is that he was in control of this, the lawyer. He should have gone to the police. And should have gone to the police if he took it seriously the minute he found out about it. And he didn't do that.

BLITZER: You're talking about Michael Avenatti?

WILKINSON: Why did he not take these allegations to the police?

BLITZER: He did get this sworn statement from her, which he did submit to the Judiciary Committee.

WILKINSON: Those are not law enforcement people. As an attorney, your obligation is to your client. And if you believe these crimes were committed against your client, you should go to law enforcement. Ask yourself why he didn't go to law enforcement. Why is there almost no detail in that affidavit whatsoever?

BLITZER: I want to go through some of these elements in the affidavit. You're a federal prosecutor. You could ask someone to investigate these allegations as well.

WILKINSON: I'm not this woman's attorney. Judge Kavanagh doesn't know her. This never happened. And he's said that over and over again that he never engaged in any of that behavior.

I'm asking you why, in this process, which has been so debased on both sides, why are people who have these serious allegations not going to law enforcement themselves and saying, take a look at this? There must be a reason, as a lawyer, that he didn't take these allegations to the police himself. No one is stopping him.

BLITZER: As your client, Judge Kavanagh, already said under oath, declared under oath to the Senate Judiciary Committee, that none of these allegations by these women occurred?

WILKINSON: Yes, he was asked these questions generally, and more specifically, I don't know about this --

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: He told Congress, apparently, that there's not a kernel of truth in any of these allegations, before this third woman came forward. I'm assuming he's saying the same thing about all three women's' allegations?

WILKINSON: Exactly. Exactly.

BLITZER: I'll go through the allegations, but I want to play a clip for you. Kellyanne Conway, the White House counselor, was on CNN earlier this week and she made this point, and it's a significant point. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KELLYANNE CONWAY, COUNSELOR TO PRESIDENT TRUMP: You see a pattern in their practice.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST, NEW DAY: Which is what?

CONWAY: That there are many women who say they have been wronged by the same man, Harvey Weinstein, Les Moonves, others. I don't mean to name names. I'm just saying that when one woman comes forward, others come forward. That's what's happened in most of these cases. And I know it's not for a lack of trying that people have tried to prove the same here and have not.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: She was speaking when Christine Blasey Ford made the initial allegations against him. But since then, Deborah Ramirez has come forward, a student at Yale University, and Julie Swetnick has come forward. And her allegations are very, very brutal in this sworn affidavit.

But what do you say to Kellyanne Conway when you are hearing that only one woman, and usually when harassment or sexual assault, it doesn't just happen once. Other women come forward and other women are now coming forward?

[13:40:05] WILKINSON: The difference in these situations is there were multiple people that were supposed to be at the same places when this occurred. And in those instances, those people have said it didn't happen or they have no memory of it. That's true with Dr. Blasey Ford. That's definitely true with Deborah Ramirez, who said she didn't even remember who it was when she started talking to her other friends about it. And supposedly, there were tons of women that were there, there were men that were there. She claims she went to 10 different parties, and there's not one other person, there's not a detail about when it was, what time of year it was. There's nothing that would make any judgment of liability.

BLITZER: She said she went to numerous parties between 1981 and 1983 and Brett Kavanagh was there, and Mark Judge, a friend of his, was there as well. I'll read to you a couple of sentences: "On numerous occasions at these parties, I witness Mark Judge and Brett Kavanagh drink excessively and engage in highly inappropriate conduct, including be overly aggressive with girls and not taking no for an answer. This conduct included the fondling and grabbing of girls without their consent."

One point. And then she goes on, "I observed Brett Kavanagh drink excessively at many of these parties and engage in abusive and physically aggressive behavior towards girls, including pressing girls against them without their consent, grinding against girls, and attempting to remove or shift girls' clothing to expose private parts."

Do you want to respond to that?

WILKINSON: All I can tell you is what he knows. None of that ever happened. And everyone who is calling and contacting us who was at parties with him, has never heard of that. And these are the types of allegations that they were going on, 10 or 12 parties, this is not just one time. She's claiming this happened for years and no one else can verify it and no one else is saying it? No. They allege in there that there are other people that can. Why haven't they brought those people forward?

BLITZER: Why not Mark Judge? Why not ask him to come testify before the committee, if they were so close, Judge Kavanagh and Mark Judge?

WILKINSON: Judge Kavanagh doesn't control the asking of who testifies in front of the committee.

BLITZER: Would you like him to come forward and testify?

WILKINSON: Mark Judge has said he doesn't want to. He has giving a statement saying that none of this happened and it's totally inconsistent with the conduct of the person he knows, the integrity and the type of person that Judge Kavanagh is. He's given a statement and you know what's happened to him? He's become harassed, he's had to leave, he's had to hire a lawyer. He's written a book about his own alcohol and drug use. He was open and honest about that. And he doesn't want to become part of the circus. And how could you blame him? Who would want to be part of this when, every day, new allegations that supposedly were around for many years, could have been brought out in this process when it started at the very beginning. And Mr. Avenatti, as far as I know, this weekend, was dangling this out in the press. Why wasn't this brought forward? These are such serious allegations, one has to question why?

WILKINSON: In his opening statement, his statement that he's going to deliver tomorrow before the Senate Judiciary Committee, assuming this hearing goes forward, he says this: "I spent most of my time in high school focused on academics, sports, church and service. But I was not perfect in those days, just as I am not perfect today. I drank beer with my friends, usually on weekends. Sometimes I had too many. In retrospect, I said and did things in high school that make me cringe now.

BLITZER: You've discussed this with him, I assume. What makes you cringe now?

WILKINSON: I think we all have those kinds of things that we say when we're 16, 17, 18 years old that we wish we didn't say. And that's part of the maturing process. And I said, I hope my children know, if they say something stupid or do something stupid that they will be able to live a life of public service and give back to their community. Of course, I hope someone would say that. (CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: But you know, it's significant, I don't think in this FOX News interview, he said that. This is a --

WILKINSON: He did.

(CROSSTALK)

WILKINSON: He said he had had too many years --

BLITZER: He did things that make him cringe now?

WILKINSON: Yes. He used those exact words, as far as I recall. He said, things, if you look back, that would make you cringe.

BLITZER: My recollection is he said, people drink too much. I don't -- we can check that. We can check exactly how far he went. In fact, this, to me, looks like a new element.

And let me read to you a couple of other accusations that this woman, Julie Swetnick, makes in this affidavit. "During the years 1981 and 1982, I became aware of efforts by Mark Judge and Brett Kavanagh and others to spike the punch at house parties I attended with drugs - a house party I attended with drugs and/or grain alcohol so as to cause girls to lose their inhibitions and their ability to say no."

WILKINSON: I don't know -- when you say you went to 10 parties like that, and you kept going to those parties, even though that was happening, and you saw that supposedly happened to other girls, that is a different thing not to report. I understand girls why women don't report sexual assault. It's very difficult. And no one should criticize them for that. But this is a whole different level. She's saying, I went to these parties and I saw this happening and I never brought it up, I never thought about what was happening to those other women. I have a very hard time believing that's true. I really do. I think it's of a different magnitude. And it's coming out the day before the hearing? One has to question why if there's something to it. I would have said, I would have expected Mr. Avenatti to have gone straight to the police and refer it for investigation.

[13:45:44] BLITZER: The most serious allegation she makes is this one and I'll read it. It's ugly and it's awful. "I also witnessed efforts by Mark Judge and Brett Kavanagh and others to cause girls to become inebriated and disoriented so they could then be gang raped in side room or a bedroom by a train of numerous boys. I have a firm recollection of seeing boys lined up outside rooms at many of these parties waiting for their turn with a girl inside the room. These boys included Mark Judge and Brett Kavanagh."

WILKINSON: I mean, it's outrageous. Really, you witnessed gang rapes and you never said anything? You have never come forward? We know Judge Kavanagh has been under scrutiny for months, months. And you witnessed something like this? As a parent of a daughter and two sons, I cannot imagine not coming forward when this man was named, if that's what you witnessed. I don't understand that. And I don't understand why they wouldn't go to the police.

BLITZER: She says that these boys, according to her -- and we haven't confirmed any of this, obviously. She said, "These boys targeted particular girls so they could be taken advantage of, usually a girl that was especially vulnerable because she was alone at the party or shy."

Vulnerable girls were targeted, that's the accusation she makes. I assume she's including herself in that accusation.

WILKINSON: It sounds horrible. I agree, no one is denying these allegations don't sound horrible. She doesn't say that it was Judge Kavanagh. Just said he was there. But she said that there were many other men there and many other women. And that's the part that I don't understand. And I don't understand why --

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: You know this, and you've been involved in these kinds of cases. A lot of these young women, especially, they're afraid to even tell their parents.

WILKINSON: Absolutely. Absolutely.

BLITZER: They don't tell anybody. They feel awful, they feel degraded, they feel embarrassed, humiliated.

WILKINSON: Absolutely.

BLITZER: And for years and years, they may stay silent.

WILKINSON: I agree. And it's a horrible thing what women have had to go through. And it's one of the few good things that's happened in this country in the last few years that the "Me Too" movement has come out and women have been able to speak out. And it's important.

But it's also important that everyone gets a defense and gets to face those accusations fairly and gets information and details. And what's shocking about this is the lack of detail, the outrageous allegations, and the timing of this.

(CROSSTALK)

WILKINSON: When you're talking about years of gang rape -- as I read it -- that's what she's saying, years of gang rape.

BLITZER: He says in a statement that's going to be released tomorrow and read at the hearing, "This effort to destroy my good name will not drive me out. The vile threats of violence against my family will not drive me out. I am here this morning to answer these allegations and to tell the truth. And the truth is I never sexually assaulted anyone, not in high school, not in college, not ever."

He's staying in. He's not withdrawing his name. Is that right?

WILKINSON: Right, despite what it's done to his family and the process. And I think the dignity of our entire confirmation process is at risk. We have to remember that these people are human beings. He is a human being, so is she, so are the other people involved, including Mark Judge. Why would anyone want to participate? But I think more troubling for all us, why anyone want to put themselves up for confirmation ever again for any position of the government if this is what they have to go through.

BLITZER: Beth Wilkinson, thank you very much for coming in.

WILKINSON: Sure. Thank you.

BLITZER: We'll see what happens at this hearing tomorrow if, in fact, it still takes place.

Appreciate it very much.

WILKINSON: Sure.

[13:49:08] BLITZER: Much more on the breaking news, right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: We're continuing to follow the breaking news.

I'm joined by Democratic Congresswoman Sheila Jackson Lee, of Texas.

Congresswoman, thanks so much for joining us.

I quickly want to get your reaction to these disturbing new allegations against Judge Kavanaugh by this third woman?

[13:54:01] REP. SHEILA JACKSON LEE, (D), TEXAS: Wolf, thank you for having me.

Against this backdrop, let me say that the president should not fire Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein.

But this is troubling. It's sad. And one might call it catastrophic. I don't think in the history of confirmations, we've had many confirmations of those going to the Supreme Court that were rejected, that we've had this kind of saga. I think it's sad. And there are no winners here.

Let me tell you what would solve all of this. First of all, it is advice and consent. A lot of people have been saying advise. It's advice and consent. The Democrats have a right to give advice. Their advice is his name should be pulled. If not, there should be an investigation.

I listened to Mr. Kavanaugh's attorney, who did as good a job that one could do, but she never answered the question as to why all three of these and maybe more are not vetted by the duly investigative arm of the United States government, and that is the FBI. What would be wrong of extending and pausing this confirmation process to document? I've read this affidavit, this declaration. It cries out for an FBI investigator to go and inquire of those who were there. They're still around in this community or in the nation. She gave details about the number of parties, particular parties in and around the Maryland and Washington, D.C. area. That's not a very light or undocumented statement. It's documented. Ms. Ramirez has documentation. And of course, Dr. Ford has submitted four affidavits. This is a pivotal position. This is not just any position on the Supreme Court. It is the swing vote. And I believe the American people, no matter what their political persuasion, want to be assured of a justice with the highest integrity. It may be that there's nothing "there" there, but certainly there's a history of drinking to the extent that justice -- Judge Kavanaugh spoke about it in a speech at Yale Law School. I would say this is too important to go forward without an investigation or, in essence, to keep the name going forward.

BLITZER: Judge Kavanaugh's attorney, Beth Wilkinson, she makes the point that, why didn't Michael Avenatti, this third woman's lawyer, Julie Swetnick, why didn't he go to the police and seek to have a full-scale investigation? She also says it's not his job -- Judge Kavanaugh's job to call for an FBI investigation. If the president wants to do another background check, if the Judiciary Committee majority wants to do it, it's their responsibility to ask for an FBI background check.

JACKSON LEE: You're absolutely right. But I don't want to get in the mix of personalities, either Mr. Kavanaugh's lawyer or the third victim's lawyer. I want to get into the facts of the individuals who have come forward. They're the ones who need justice. Mr. Kavanaugh needs justice, his family. But they will only get justice if an FBI investigation proceeds or the president, in his wisdom, pulls his name down. We have asked the president over and over again, meaning the Senate Democrats in their responsibility on advice and consent. They've given him advice. They've asked for a pause. They've asked for a delay. He has ignored it. And he's ignored it in disregard of the American people and the high calling of this office.

Wolf, this is not an elected office. This is an appointed office for life. That means the standard has to be even higher because it's under the Constitution as the third branch of government. And it is the highest court in the land for all the people who think they should have a fair hearing in the Supreme Court. That's why this so important.

BLITZER: Judge Kavanaugh is 53 years old. He can clearly be on the Supreme Court, if confirmed --

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: -- for 30, maybe 40 years.

Representative Sheila Jackson Lee, thanks very much for joining us.

JACKSON LEE: Thank you for having me.

BLITZER: Let's get a quick thought.

Gloria? GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: Look, I think Beth

Wilkinson made the point, as did Jeff Flake earlier, that you can't overstate that these people are human beings and that they're -- you know, Professor Ford and Judge Kavanaugh are going through something that is quite excruciating. I also believe that the committee needs to fully investigate these other charges and that perhaps Mr. Avenatti, as Beth Wilkinson suggests, should take his client's charges to the police.

JULIE HIRSCHFELD DAVIS, CNN POLTICAL ANALYST: The other thing, as many questions as this latest statement does raise about what exactly happened and why there aren't more details, it seems pretty clear now we're going to go forward with the hearing without having heard more about the investigation into these newest charges. What I think it will do is inform the questions Senators are going to be asking of Judge Kavanaugh and potentially broaden the scope in a way that is not particularly pleasant for Judge Kavanaugh or anybody in the pursuit of some broader sort of characterization of what his behavior was like with regard to alcohol and regard to women in those years.

BLITZER: Carrie?

CARRIE CORDERO, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I think it's a mistake to go through with these hearings tomorrow. It's unfair to Judge Kavanaugh. Even if he goes through tomorrow, he's going to have to answer for it. And those skeptical about his nomination are going to have more questions after. It's going to be completely unsatisfactory. And it's really going to be a rush if they try to rush that vote the next day.

LAURA COATES, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: This is arbitrary. You had a four and four or just eight justices on the Supreme Court for almost over a year with the Merrick Garland -- refusal to have the confirmation process. This haste is largely driven by the midterm elections and the October 1st argument that's before the court, neither of which is a good enough reason to deny due process to either the accusers or the accused.

BLITZER: We're going to continue to follow the breaking news.

Ladies, thank you very much for the excellent analysis.

Our special coverage continues right now.

[14:00:10] BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Brooke Baldwin. You're watching CNN.