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Crime and Justice With Ashleigh Banfield
Dad Kills Family, Puts Kids In Oil Tanks; Grisly New Details About Kids` Death Scene; Exclusive New Murder Details; A Dad Allegedly Killed His Family; Helping Sex Trafficking Victims Start a New Life. Aired 6-8p ET
Aired September 27, 2018 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[18:00:00] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "Crime and Justice with Ashleigh Banfield" starts right now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tonight, gut wrenching new details about that Colorado oil site where cops say Chris Watts admitted he dumped the bodies
of his dead little girls.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They gathered a lot of evidence.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How he manipulated those massive tanks.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How could he put his deceased daughters in oil tanks if he loved them?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How long it took for police to fish those little girls out.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He is a monster.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And what they had to do to recover those little angels.
Plus, why were prosecutors just given the green light to get a better look at Chris Watts` body?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Chris Watts was not willing to voluntarily submit his buckle swab or his DNA and his fingerprints.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And how Shanann Watts` family is trying to recover the last few memories and mementos of her life.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Really kind of broke my heart and made it even more real.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, HOST, HLN CRIME AND JUSTICE: Good evening, everyone, I`m Ashleigh Banfield. This is Crime and Justice. Tonight the kind of
bombshell details that chill you to the core and tell you what kind of killer we could be dealing with here in Colorado. Because there are
revolting new reports tonight from the work site turned burial site where police say Chris Watts dumped his family`s corpses, where they say he threw
away those daughters in twin tanks, oil tanks, and then buried his pregnant wife in a shallow grave before heading home to tell everyone who would
listen, they were just missing.
And Chris Watts might have just banked on his family staying missing forever because, according to this brand-new information from a source who
was close to the case, those bodies were not recovered or discovered easily. And if it was difficult to recover those bodies, it makes you
wonder just how difficult was it for him to dispose of them.
Welcome, everyone. As I said, we have some really chilling new information tonight. The kind of information that we really never expected. And when
we heard it, we were shocked. The fact that it took up to eight hours for the police to get those children out of those oil tanks -- eight full
agonizing hours -- in which the people close to these children had to wait to hear their fate.
They had already discovered Shanann, but where were those kids, how could they get them out of those tanks? 700 barrels of oil those tanks hold.
Those children are tiny. Eight hours of grueling work for forensics officers, police officers, investigators, and the people who had to
retrieve those tiny children and take them to a medical examiner.
Eight grueling hours of draining both of those tanks until they were empty, draining hundreds upon hundreds of barrels of oil from those tanks, all the
while wondering when would they be able to find Cece, when would they be able to find Bella?
Wesley Williams is a professor of petroleum engineering at Louisiana State University. He also designs oil sites like the one that became a
gravesite, effectively a disposal site for beautiful children and a beautiful wife.
Wesley, thank you for being on with us tonight. I have to be honest, I have racked my brain to try to figure out how these children, a, were
recovered from the oil tanks which now we are sadly getting morbid forensic information about, but also how they were put into those oil tanks.
And I think what you`re going to help me with tonight is a bit of a lesson in petroleum engineering, because it would be only someone who knew the
inner workings of those tanks that could have pulled this off. And even then, it is -- it`s a miraculous feat. And I think it has you a little
stumped. Am I correct?
WESLEY WILLIAMS PHD, PROFESSOR, PETROLEUM ENGINEERING, LOUISIANA STATE UNIVERSITY: Yes, absolutely, Ashleigh. This is -- I can`t think of how
much time and effort it would really take to do this. It`s somewhat shocking to think about. It does require a bit of I think technical
knowledge. And the thing that I`m seeing is like, I don`t really see how you could pull this off quickly without having thought about it beforehand.
That is what disturbs me.
BANFIELD: And, Wesley, to be clear, this new bombshell exclusive information that a source close to the case has shared with us, that it
took eight hours to drain those tanks of the oil and retrieve those little girls, how would that have been done? Would the police have enlisted help
from people like you, help from the Anadarko Company? Would they have used the existing equipment? Would they have brought in a special pump to
preserve forensic information? Just walk me through that very sort of morbid and sad task that they had to undergo for eight hours.
WILLIAMS: Yes, so, I would imagine for this case, because, you know, they were trying to preserve forensic evidence, they probably brought in a
vacuum truck. It works kind of like a wet/dry shop vacuum. You would stick a hose down in the tank and slowly vacuum the contents out. And you
know, that is part of the issue, with the tank having oil in it, you can`t just open and get in the side. The oil would spill out all over the place,
so you had to vacuum the oil out first before you could open what we call a man way or a hatch, which is a designed piece on the side for you to get
inside the tank, yes.
BANFIELD: So, that helps me to go off our starting point on the design of these tanks. You say they are fairly, fairly standard. You call them the
standard A.P. 112 f standard design, am I correct, that is the technical name for the standard?
WILLIAMS: Yes.
BANFIELD: Go ahead.
WILLIAMS: API 12 f, API 12 f tank.
BANFIELD: So we have that picture up on the screen right now. Just so our audience is a bit aware of the tour that we`re going to take them through,
on the top of the tanks, they`re roughly 25 feet height are called thief hatches.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
BANFIELD: And they are 8 inches in diameter. They`re effectively like manholes, so to speak. You can open them and close them, but they are --
I`m going to show our audience here, maybe go a full screen of me so they can get the actual. That is the size of the opening of the thief hatch
manhole-like cover. It is eight inches in diameter. It is very, very small. And then back to that image, the bottom of the tank, and the clean
out man wave. Now that is 2 to 3 feet, correct? The squares on the bottom where they effectively every year or two or maybe more frequently or less
frequently, can go in and clean those tanks out, because you can unbolt 64 or so bolts, and then physically get in there, but the tank has to be empty
by the time you do that.
WILLIAMS: Yes. So, yes, these are very standard designs. So looking at the tanks, this is the old design standard. So it has the 8-inch port on
top which is really just to take a measurement of the tank level. So you really don`t look too hard down that hole. It`s not much you can see. And
then on the bottom it`s a standard design. You have 64-bolt 2 foot by 3 foot rectangular port on the bottom, but your tank has to be completely
drained out to be able to take that off otherwise you`ll leak oil all over the place.
BANFIELD: So that leads me to my next question, Wesley, because none of this is now making sense. They found those children in tanks that were
nearly full. And as I have learned from you, the full capacity of these tanks is somewhere between 600 and 700 barrels of oil. That is a lot. So,
let`s just say nearly full is 500, correct?
WILLIAMS: Yes, exactly. And you know, the strange thing to me is openly available, you can find the production rate of that well. And at its best,
it was producing about 200 barrels per month. So it leads me to believe that, you know, the oil probably wasn`t completely drained out by whoever
put the girls in these tanks, you know. They probably shifted the liquids from one tank over to the other one, opened, put it in and then shifted the
liquids back to the other side. That requires quite a bit of technical knowledge. It does take a certain amount of time to do that --
BANFIELD: Let me stop you there --
WILLIAMS: -- that type of operation.
BANFIELD: -- because that was my next question. Obviously that drill site producing only you know, 200 barrels a month is not going to be able in
four days -- that is the time it took to find the bodies -- to fill even one of those tanks up to 600-700 barrels. It would take three months to
fill them naturally. So, just thinking that through, if, in fact, the opening on the top -- and again, I`ll hold it up -- is too small for Chris
Watts to, as he apparently according to the police admitted, too small for him to put those children through, he would have had to do it from the
bottom, which means the tank would have had to be empty or he would have been gushed on by a full tank of oil. So you`re saying there is a pump
that goes between those two tanks and he could pump one tank empty --
[18:10:23] WILLIAMS: Yes.
BANFIELD: -- and put -- there is the thief hatch, I think that is your hand Wesley, correct, next to the thief hatch at the top.
WILLIAMS: Yes, that is my hands to give you scale.
BANFIELD: They have a tank that is similar.
WILLIAMS: Yes. That is part of what kind of bent my brain. I really don`t think you could easily get anything -- and it`s designed that way for
you to not drop anything through that top hatch. They keep it very small. So eight inches is quite small. That is what made me think, you pretty
much have to take that bottom man way open. And the standard design, you know, there`s 64 bolts. You have to drain all of the liquids out to
really, you know, --
BANFIELD: We have a picture of that, put the picture of the bottom man way. Because Wesley has also given us an example photo of the tank where
he is standing next to the man way. This is the actual site. What I`d like now is the example site of the man way that Wesley shows us, if we can
show that.
It`s called the clean out man way. There it is. You can see Wesley`s hand. Now you can see the relative size of that opening. All of those
bolts that would have to be opened, unscrewed and screwed back on, clearly it is at the bottom of the tank. So it`s going to have to be really --
that tank is going to have to be literally dry.
But Wesley, just in terms of the time -- because Chris Watts was seen leaving his house at 5:30 in the morning. And he had to have some kind of
alibi to be working by 7:30, 8:30, 9:30 in the morning. So they were -- it`s 45 minutes to drive there. So he didn`t have an inordinate amount of
time at this site to dig a shallow grave for his wife and then do all this work at these two oil tanks. How much time does it take to pump the oil
between the tanks? It can`t be the same as that forensic vacuum.
WILLIAMS: No. I think you can probably do that within an hour, more or less, depending on how full the tanks were. You could maybe do it within
an hour or so. And then the bolting itself, you know, I work a lot around this hands-on type stuff. And even with power tools, taking out 64 bolts
on both of them, so, 128 bolts, taking them off, putting them back and taking them off and putting back on, it just takes a lot of time to do.
BANFIELD: Yes.
WILLIAMS: It`s pretty --
BANFIELD: I think, I mean, honestly, what takes even more time, I`m guessing, just from what I`m learning from you, and your petroleum
experience, if both of those tanks were nearly full, then how would you have -- reproduce that oil? You can`t, you can`t put two nearly full oil
tanks into one while you stash a body and do the reverse. It doesn`t make sense which now sadly leads me to believe that the only physical way that
this could have happened, especially in the time that was permitted, was that he must have put the children through the top hatch of the tank.
And to that I want to bring in Joseph Scott Morgan who is a certified death investigator, he is professor of forensic at Jacksonville State University.
Joe, you and I have been talking about this through the day.
And I know that your theory is just too small. The eight-inch opening is just too small to put a three-year-old, or a four-year-old through. But
now you know how difficult it would be to have emptied those tanks and refill them in order to open the larger hatches at the bottom. Are you
rethinking the possibility that maybe something more violent happen and that this was the only way those children could get in those tanks?
Because there`s one thing we know, those children were in those tanks and they were nearly full.
JOSEPH SCOTT MORGAN, PROFESSOR OF FORENSIC, JACKSONVILLE STATE UNIVERSITY: Yes. Wesley really painted quite the picture for us there. Relative to
the fiscal status of these tanks. And one of the things that I`m thinking, if we`re talking specifically about that thief hatch on top where the
eight-inch diameter, this is a problem. And it leads me to a very gruesome conclusion relative to that. That means that these bodies quite possibly
could have been manipulated postmortem in order to facilitate them going through the thief hatches. This is all about the diameter of the access
area as well as the general overall measurements of these children`s bodies. Is this possible to facilitate? Just getting the head and the
shoulders past that opening in and of itself is a herculean task.
And the fact that you have someone who claims that he did this to his own children -- let`s just keep in mind this paints a rather gruesome picture
of him because he would have had to have manipulated their bodies, possibly breaking rigor mortis, that is taking them out of rigor, you have to adjust
the arms if they`ve been dead for some time, or other things that he may have done to the bodies in order to get them through that hole.
BANFIELD: So, there is that possibility, but I want to bring up something else, because I truly can`t even imagine what you`re describing, Joe, and
god, I hope as if this case weren`t awful enough, that that awfulness did not transpire, but our team immediately hearkened back to 1987 when the
lead story day after day was Jessica McClure. She was 18 months old and she fell down a well in midland, Texas -- that is oil country. This well
happened to be a well in her auntie`s backyard. Jessica was 18 months old, OK. So she is younger than Bella and Cece. Cece is three, Bella is four,
but that well was eight inches.
The opening was eight inches in diameter. So we know it is possible for at least a child of Jessica McClure`s size to have fallen into that well
without any force. At least we do know that. I do want to do one thing, and that is this, all of this has been very difficult. It`s taken us days
actually, you know, interviewing you, Wesley, going over this with you, Joe Scott Morgan. And when police officers show up at these scenes, they are
not petroleum engineers.
Sergeant Sean Stick Larkin, is a famous police officer known well for his work on live P.D. every Thursday night -- Friday night from 9:00 until
midnight, you walk us through policing in a live fashion. It`s unvarnished. It is exactly how it happens as you all arrive on scene. You
have your own program now, P.D. cam airing on Thursday nights starting this November. I have to ask you, if you`re one of the cops that shows up at a
petroleum engineering oil rig, this is not your wheel house. What do you do?
SGT. SEAN STICK LARKIN, LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST, LIVE P.D.: Yes. This is far from the standard police officers wheel house. You know, the goal for
us to get out there is obviously to contain the scene. Because the recovery of evidence is the number one priority. So, if there is any
danger from anything else being contaminated at that point, we`re going to call the professionals, the people that are familiar with that site that
can give us an idea how can we get inside to recover any, you know, both of the victims as well as any evidence.
BANFIELD: Let me ask you this. Do you -- I mean, you have to assess things fast. When you`re dealing with murder investigations you`re dealing
with decomposition and timing could be everything. So you don`t have an inordinate amount of time. Do you do things like call Wesley Williams
Ph.D., and say, we need your expertise before we touch any of this gear, we need somebody -- or do you rely on these companies and their good will to
walk you through this?
STICK LARKIN: Well, obviously, you know, if we think that the victim or somebody is still alive, we`re going to put that to the side, because
trying to get them safe is the number one goal at that point, but in this case it didn`t sound like that. So we`re just going to hold it, we are
going to reach out to someone like Wesley, the owner of the property, somebody affiliated with that company to come up and bring the tools that
we`re going to need so that we can get inside.
BANFIELD: I cannot imagine the task that this was for fellow officers of yours having to appear on the site and realize what they were dealing with
and realized what they had to do. Which also brings me to this. If you`re wondering why eight hours to empty those tanks, those 600 to 700 barrels of
oil with the forensic pump, in a moment I`m going to show you exactly what the crude looks like and exactly what they had to pump out and you may
understand better just how difficult and how grisly this task was. That is after this.
[18:20:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BANFIELD: It was sickening from the day they found the bodies. The idea of two tiny little girls just three and four years old submerged in thick
black crude oil and locked inside giant oil tanks so that presumably no one would ever find them, but tonight that crime scene gets sicker as we learn
really horrifying new details about what investigators had to do to recover Bella and Cece Watts` bodies. And the lengths that their killer could have
gone to, to hide them in that dark, thick grave.
Back with me, Wesley Williams is Ph.D. Professor of Petroleum Engineering at Louisiana State University. Wesley, one of the things you said as we
came to air tonight was that not only would it take eight hours for, say, a forensic vacuum truck to empty those tanks out so they could get at the
children through those man ways at the bottom, but that it might only take an hour to funnel oil between the two tanks. And I think, you know, for
anybody watching, that is hard to believe because water moves so quickly, crude not so much. Give me an example of just how difficult this material
is to work with and to empty and to pump.
WILLIAMS: Yes, well, it`s actually -- it`s fairly fluid. It does flow quite well. I think the main difference -- I mean, if you want to see what
it looks like, I`ve got it here. I mean, you can see this is a crude oil sample that we have here. It`s actually a lot thinner than most people
think, because it is lighter than water. And this is about an API 30 or 40 which is similar to what you have at the site in Colorado.
So, it does flow fairly fast through a pump. You know, these pumps are designed to handle that, so to pump between the tanks, I would say you`re
going to spend probably an hour or so. This is pumping at 100 or 200 gallons a minute. So you could probably move between the tanks that, say,
400 to 600 gallons -- or barrels. You could do that within an hour.
BANFIELD: I see the idea that you told me, you say this site doesn`t produce enough oil in a month to fill a tank to fill the tank up in four
days, if it been empty then sent over to the other side. Bit more to the point, you just showed me the crude oil. I actually was a bit surprised.
I expected it to be more molasses or tar like. And that leads me to this question. How difficult is it for you to wash that off your body?
WILLIAMS: You want to see? I mean, I`ll dip my finger in it. You can see how it is on my finger. Let me try to wipe it off my finger, you know.
You can still see the residue in my finger nails. Obviously the smell.
BANFIELD: Sure, but ultimately for investigators and sadly for the forensic examiner, the pathologist, it`s not as difficult as maybe one
would think to clear the oil off of the body to get a good view and to do some good forensic analysis of how those children died and maybe, if it`s
possible, who killed them. Wesley, thank you for that. Stand by for a moment. There are a few other things that I want to let our audience know
about. We have some other breaking news that we wanted to bring to you.
Last night we opened the program and we told you that it had come to our attention there was a moving truck outside Shanann Watts and her children
and Chris`s -- their home, the family home in which they were so mercilessly killed. And we now know a little more information about that.
It is helpful to know this that not only was Frank Sr. is there as we reported last night, but we also know that Sandy, that is Shanann`s mom,
she was there as well and Shanann`s brother Frankie was there and Shanann`s dearest oldest friend Lauren Arnold, the woman with the dark hair in her
30s. At least the four of them were there to, you know, to try to recover whatever mementos and memories of their loved ones that they could.
I can tell you a couple of things that, you know, I think maybe helpful to understand what was going on, and we have a couple of sources that have
been able to help us with this, some witnesses to what happened. You know, this was a not so much a massive move that you would normally see as it was
a lot of the memories. That is what we`re learning. I`ll also tell you that a family spokesman has said to us that the children`s toys, the
children`s clothes, those were moved out and they are going to local churches. We also can tell you from the family that there are family
heirloom pieces and a spokesman says, from our side of the family that Shanann`s mom Sandy had passed down to Shanann that will be kept, because
they belong to Shanann`s side of the family.
I also want to tell you that the spokesman for the family said this. As Shanann`s mom, of course, she is going to go through her only daughter`s
personal belongings, everything Shanann had from her own childhood as memories. Obviously it`s now her parents` and her brothers`. I think that
is important to know. I think Facebook has been particularly cruel to this family, and quite frankly I would say more than cruel. I would say
ruthless. Some of them making accusations of them stealing from their dead daughter and granddaughters` home, but this is what Lou valentine, a family
spokesman has told us about that and about this family. And I`m going to quote her. Sandy is one of the strongest women I know. That is Shanann`s
mom. Nothing, and I mean nothing and nobody that throws jabs at her daughter or her family online, on TV, will ever make her feel defeated.
[18:30:00] Until a human being is able to walk in her shoes for one day, they have no right to judge or speculate how to properly handle this
horrific and senseless crime committed on her daughter and grandbabies. Every single day is a challenge for Sandi, Frank Sr. and Frankie.
So I think that`s really critical to note for armchair quarterbacks who throw flaming arrows on the internet. This is a family that is grieving.
This is a family that has nothing left but the family dog.
And if they went to get things like that, beautiful wooden stool that Shanann`s father made for them, that those children used to play with, the
little orange stool they climb up on the kitchen counters, if they went to get those things or all those kitchen cabinets that Shanann`s father
actually built for her and installed in that home, that beautiful kitchen, if that`s what they went to get out of this house, I`m going to go out on a
limb here and say shame on you forecasting aspersions at this family.
Shame on you. They have lost so much. Remember that.
I want to bring in Steve Helling, if I can, senior writer for "People" magazine. I know that you do the same thing I do. We watch carefully what`s
happening on Facebook. And I don`t know if you`ve been as astounded as I have at what this family has had to put up with. But I know you`ve done
some additional reporting as well, Steve.
STEVE HELLING, SENIOR WRITER, PEOPLE: Uh-huh. Well, everybody always has an opinion, and now Facebook gives everybody a microphone and they say what
they want. They do forget sometimes that the victims` families often are looking at those things and seeing what these people are saying. So you`re
absolutely right there. And, you know, I echo your "shame on you" that you just said.
BANFIELD: Yeah. I will tell you this couple of other things, that this family arrived in Colorado, they flew into Denver International Airport,
and they drove directly to the home. This was at least five days ago or so. They were there to take care of things. Clearly this was one of the things
they wanted to take care of. They didn`t stay overnight in that home.
The moving truck was at that house from about 11:00 Eastern to about 5:30 Eastern yesterday. But one of the other thing, Steve, that they were in
Colorado to do was to go to a memorial that we did not know about, but we did know that they had checked into something called the Carbon Valley
Recreation Center. That was on Saturday.
As it turns out, they were there for a very good reason. A dear friend of Shanann`s had organized a memorial at this rec center for her on Saturday
and the family was there. That`s why they were at the rec center. We hadn`t any idea as to why they had checked in there, but now we know. It was
private. There were some Facebook pictures from friends who had been there.
By the way, Chris and Shanann had originally had family passes to this rec center, the Carbon Valley Rec Center, but their family passes had expired
in March. But at least we do know the family was there at that memorial. That was just one more thing.
We can also tell you this. A very important part of this trip for Sandy was to visit with the district attorney. And that`s important because Sandy
needs to be kept in the loop. Sandy will be a big part of this investigation. The whole family of Shanann will be part of this
investigation. So that meeting happened today.
According to a witness, she was there at the D.A. to have conversations. How long the meeting happened, I don`t know. How many people at the
meeting, I don`t know. But critical to this investigation, Sandy was with the D.A. today. And then, Steve, quickly, another flurry of paperwork
today, the courts making an order. Chris Watts loses again. What did they order?
HELLING: Yeah, they basically order that he turnover swabs from his cheek for DNA, plus handprints, footprints, fingerprints, all of that, so that
they can see what physical evidence there is between the site, the oil site, of course at home and all of that.
BANFIELD: So, I want to just mention one other thing, Steve. As you`ve been working the case, you know, another document on the court website said
that a bag was found at the site and it was a nonporous which makes us think plastic and that there was a --
HELLING: Right.
BANFIELD: -- barefoot print on that bag and that`s why they wanted the print. But you discovered that`s not the only thing that was found at the
site.
HELLING: I`m trying to recall what -- I mean, the plastic bag or the nonporous bag was number 26 in the list of things that they found. So they
all sorts of evidence. They have all sorts of different things.
[18:34:59] Some of the things we don`t know about. Most of them we don`t. And they`re using that as they are putting it together, a case against him
and kind of figuring out exactly what happened.
BANFIELD: Yeah, I was reading in one of your exclusives that on top of that plastic bag, that a source even told you there was more than that.
Trust me, there was a lot more evidence that they --
HELLING: Right.
BANFIELD: -- determined to be connected to this scene. And important to note as well that those autopsies are going to remain private for now. The
order today saying when the prosecutors get the autopsies eventually, they must notify the court immediately and then hand them over to the defense.
But as of now, they remain confidential.
And maybe what we went through today, remember the size of this? Remember what it would be like to try to perhaps get a child through that? Maybe
this is one of the reasons why the autopsy is still being held secret.
Everyone hold on for a moment. The fate of Chris Watts as he sometime in the future heads to trial could squarely rest with the people of Colorado.
The people chosen to sit in judgment of him in a jury box.
But before his case goes to a jury, it has to be crafted by a defense team. So what do we know about the people tasked with defending this husband and
father who is possibly one of the most vilified men in Colorado for the lying that he did on that porch alone? We`ll take a look, next.
[18:40:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BANFIELD: It`s been six weeks since she died, and it`s been six weeks of mourning for Shanann Watts` army of friends and her extremely close family.
Her husband, however, Chris, has had a little less support you could say since he`s the one accused of killing Shanann and her baby girls.
And his best friend right now might just be his defense attorneys. Those are the people charged with the task of convincing a judge and maybe even a
jury that his side of the story is true, that Chris Watts was a loving father, not a cold blooded killer. Yes, that`s an uphill task. And that`s
what a defense attorney has on his plate or her plate right now.
Colorado defense attorney David Beller joins me now from Denver. I would assume that this is the kind of case you strap in and you realize you are
in for Mt. Everest on this one. But even Casey Anthony looked like Mt. Everest and somehow they summited. In this case, what do you think these
defense attorneys are doing right now?
DAVID BELLER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Ashleigh, these are good, talented trial lawyers. They are working feverishly behind the scenes to try to do their
own investigation as you mentioned earlier. They are not privy to all the reports and the autopsies at this point.
And so they`re doing their own investigation, not just relying on the prosecutors` interviews, but trying to do their own and ultimately figure
out why their client did what he is accused of doing.
BANFIELD: Let me ask you this. You know, the news also from a witness broke today to us exclusively that one of the reasons that Sandy Onorati,
Shanann`s mom, is in Colorado, not only to get the momentos and Shanann and the children`s belongings from the home, not only to go to the memorial at
the rec center, but also to meet with the D.A., and that happened today.
I know that`s on the other side of what you do for a living as a defense attorney, but I know you all talk. What do you think that meeting might be?
BELLER: You know, Ashleigh, I also represent victims, so I`ve been to these meetings. They`re not fun. They`re difficult for the family,
difficult for the prosecutors. The prosecutors have to, under Colorado law, under our constitution, notify victims of every step and consult with them
on every step and really get their opinion.
And so this is one of many meetings that are going to happen in the end. The prosecutors are likely going to ask Shanann`s family what do they want
too see happen. Do they want a trial, do they want a trial, and really try to do their best to make sure that the family knows.
BANFIELD: So that`s good for the family to have that kind of involvement so that they can advocate as well for themselves. I have a question for
you, David, right now if I can from one of our Facebook viewers, Laura Willis Albrigo (ph). Albrigo (ph) or Albrigo (ph), I don`t know.
She asks this. I often wonder if the attorneys would ever offer a plea deal where he would be required to tell the full honest and true story of his
motive and exactly what really happened and in return they would take the death penalty off the table?
Weigh in on that.
BELLER: It absolutely happens. Plea discussions on these types of cases happen all the time, and those conversations start early. It doesn`t mean
that a plea is likely, but the question is, can a plea happen in order to not have the death penalty be filed? And if a plea does happen, can Chris
Watts be made to make a statement? And the answer is yes.
[18:45:00] It doesn`t happen often.
BANFIELD: And we should -- And we should say that they don`t have any discovery yet, so I can say as a non-lawyer, they ain`t talking plea
because they don`t know what they`re up against yet. That usually is the weigh-in that you do once you know how big and ugly this case is against
you. Real quickly and I got to wrap this up.
Kerry Rains (ph) on Facebook asks this question. When do you believe we will see autopsy results, forensics and an actual trial on Chris Watts?
What do you think, David?
BELLER: It`s going to be a long time. A long time, Ashleigh. We`re talking probably at least a year, in my opinion.
BANFIELD: I`m going to go out on a limb here and say I think it`s two. And if they ask for death penalty, I`m going to say three. We`ve seen this take
a long, long time. And there are all sorts of boomerangs that can come in and throw everything off kilter. Think about Elizabeth Smart. It took a
decade to bring those people to justice. So, it can take a long time, which is not good for the family.
David, thank you for that. Hold your thought, if you will. This case has been so hard for everyone involved. For the family, without question. But
you know something else? It has been really hard for the authorities who are handling this every day. Got a great Facebook question about that after
the break.
[18:50:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BANFIELD: There is a lot to break down in the Chris Watts murder case because it all seems to come out of the blue and connecting the dots is --
I mean, it`s tough, but we have a team of thousands of you working on this mystery, dropping new possibilities every hour on our Facebook page.
I got a really good question from Sharon Noel (ph), who asked this. Do you think the family has come back to Colorado to be told some things in person
before the autopsy is made public? The district attorney may want to spare the family shocking details before the public.
Sharon, that is a great question. We do know, you know, what David Beller just said is that they do work with the family, they do consider the family
a very important part of the process, and they do tell them things before they do tell us. But there`s a critical issue on this. Shocking details,
spare the family. The family is hurting, Sticks, but --
SEAN LARKIN, SERGEANT, TULSA POLICE DEPARTMENT: I can imagine.
BANFIELD: -- cops. I mean, this is what you do and you guys are not robots. You`re human beings, you`re dads. I can`t imagine what your fellow
officers have been going through, especially at that site.
LARKIN: Right. One thing I also want to talk about is the district attorney`s office. A lot of the district attorneys` office actually have
victim witness centers. So they have victim and witness advocates there that deal directly with the families.
Something of this magnitude, I am sure the district attorney himself is talking directly with the family, but there`s always somebody appointed to
talk to them as they`re going through this, so they`re not blindsided in the public by anything.
But as far as us, the law enforcement, you know, we are fathers. I am a father. I have been a police officer 22 years now. And during that time I
have been to a lot of shootings, a lot of homicides, including early in my career when I worked on a major crimes homicide unit.
And so we respond to every suicide unnatural death, suicide, homicide, drowning, car crashes, airplane crash even during that year. And I don`t
want to say you numb yourself to these type of things, but there are those that actually stick with you. For me it was actually one involving a child
during that year.
BANFIELD: So this will stick.
LARKIN: Exactly. The officers that are out there, that`s why these agencies have counselors for the officers as well.
BANFIELD: And I wouldn`t doubt that these counselors, especially the ones who had to go to that rig, to those tanks that day would undoubtedly need
someone to talk to about this because it is just beyond the pale.
LARKIN: It is.
BANFIELD: It`s not what we expected. Sticks, great to have you. (INAUDIBLE).
LARKIN: Yes, ma`am.
BANFIELD: Until midnight. I want you every weekend.
LARKIN: Thank you. I appreciate it.
BANFIELD: You`re my --
(CROSSTALK)
BANFIELD: -- Saturday night date. I have. It was great. I love working with you. And I appreciate you coming on to work --
LARKIN: Thank you so much for having me.
BANFIELD: -- with us. We`ll have you back. I hope you`ll come back.
LARKIN: Yes, ma`am. Absolutely.
BANFIELD: Thank you. We got a lot more coming up on that breaking exclusive news, that just what it took to get those little girls` bodies
out of those oil tanks and just how long those police officers had to struggle through the process. We`re back right after this.
[18:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BANFIELD: In America, minors are being lured and threatened and beaten and sold into slavery, forced to have sex for money. This week`s CNN hero was
one of them. But now she`s speaking out and she`s offering safety to those who have escaped. Meet Susan Munsey.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SUSAN MUNCEY, CNN HERO: Nobody wakes up and just decides one day I`m going to sell my body and give the money away. Traffickers or pimps know exactly
what they`re doing. Much of it is on the internet now. They are going on dating websites. They`re gaming. They`re looking for young, vulnerable
women, anywhere where young women might hang out.
My vision was to have a home where women could come and find safety and find themselves.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: To hear Susan`s personal story from other courageous survivors as well, go to CNNheroes.com.
[19:00:01]
ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, HLN, HOST: The next hour of Crime and Justice starts now. Tonight, gut wrenching new details about that Colorado oil site where
cops say Chris Watts admitted he dumped the bodies of his dead little girls.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It seems like they gathered a lot of evidence.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: How he manipulated the massive tanks.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How could he put his deceased daughters in oil tanks if he loved them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: How long it took for police to fish the little girls out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He is a monster.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: And what they had to do to recover those little angels. Plus, why were prosecutors just given the green light to get a better look at
Chris Watts` body?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Chris Watts was not willing to voluntarily submit his buckle swab or his DNA and his fingerprints.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: And how Shanann Watts` family is trying to recover the last few memories and momentous of her life.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And just, you know, really trying really quite hard to make it even more real.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: Good evening, everyone. I am Ashleigh Banfield. This is Crime and Justice. Tonight, the kind bombshell details that chill you to the
core and tell you what kind of killer we could be dealing with here in Colorado because there are revolting new reports tonight from the work site
turned burial site where police say Chris Watts dumped his family`s corpses where they say he threw away those daughters in twin tanks, oil tanks, and
then buried his pregnant wife in a shallow grave before heading home to tell everyone who would listen they were just missing.
And Chris Watts might have just banked on his family staying missing forever because according to this brand new information from a source who
was close to the case those bodies were not recovered or discovered easily. And if it was difficult to recover those bodies, it makes you wonder just
how difficult was it for him to dispose of them. Welcome everyone. As I said, we have some chilling new information tonight, the kind of
information that we really never expected and when we heard it we were shocked.
The fact that it took up to eight hours for the police to get those children out of those oil tanks, eight full agonizing hours in which the
people close to the children had to wait to hear their fate. They`d already discovered Shanann, but where were those kids. How could they get
them out of those tanks? 700 barrels of oil those tanks hold.
Those children are tiny. Eight hours of grueling work for forensics officers, police officers, investigators, and people that had to retrieve
the tiny children and take them to a medical examiner. Eight grueling hours of draining both those tanks until they were empty, draining hundreds
upon hundreds of barrels of oil from those tanks, all the while wondering when would they be able to find CeCe. When would they be able to find
bella. Wesley Williams is a professor of Petroleum Engineering at Louisiana State University.
He also designs oil sites like the one that became a gravesite effectively as disposal site for beautiful children and a beautiful wife. Wesley,
thank you for being on with us. I have to be honest. I have racked my brain to try to figure out how these children, A, were recovered from the
oil tanks which now we are sadly getting morbid forensic information about, but also how they were put in to those oil tanks.
And I think what you`re going to help me with tonight is a bit of a lesson in petroleum engineering because it would be only someone who knew the
inner workings of those tanks that could have pulled this off, and even then it`s a miraculous feat and I think even has you a little stumped, am I
correct?
WESLEY WILLIAMS, PROFESSOR PETROLEUM ENGINEERING, LOUISIANA STATE UNIVERSITY: Yes, absolutely, Ashleigh. This is a, you know, I can`t think
of how much time and effort it would take to do this. It`s somewhat shocking to think about. it does require technical knowledge. The thing I`m
seeing is I don`t see how you could pull this off quickly without having thought about it beforehand. That`s what disturbs me.
BANFIELD: And Wesley, to be clear this new bombshell exclusive information a source close to the case shared with us, that it took eight hours to
drain the tanks of the oil and retrieve those little girls, how would that have been done? Would the police have enlisted help from people like you,
help from the Anadarko company, would they have used existing equipment, would they have brought in a special pump for forensic information. Just
walk me through that - that very sort of morbid, sad task they had to undergo for eight hours.
WILLIAMS: Yes, so I would imagine for this case because they were trying to preserve forensic evidence, they probably have brought in a vacuum truck
and it works like a wet dry shop vacuum. You would stick a hose in the tank and slowly vacuum the contents out and, you know, that`s part of the
issue with the tank having oil in it, you can`t just open and get in the side, the oil would spill out all over the place, so you had to vacuum the
oil out first before you could open what we call a man way or a hatch which is a designed piece on the side for you to get inside the tank. Yes.
BANFIELD: OK. So that helps me to go off our starting point on design of these tanks. So you say they`re fairly - fairly standard. You call them
the Standard AP 112F standard design. Am I correct? That`s the technical name for the standard? OK.
WILLIAMS: Yes. Yes. Yes. This is the API 12F. Yes. This is the API 12F Tank. Yes.
BANFIELD: So we have that picture up on the screen now. And just so our audience is a bit aware of the tour that we`re going to take them through.
On the top of the tanks, they are roughly 20 feet high, are things called thief hatches. And they`re eight inches in diameter.
They`re effectively like manholes, so to speak, you can open and close them. But they are - and I`m going to show the audience here, maybe go in a
full screen of me so that they get the actual -- that`s the size of the opening of the thief hatch manhole like cover. It`s eight inches in
diameter. It is very, very small.
And then back to the image, the bottom of the tank, the clean out man ways. Now that`s two to three feet, correct? The squares on the bottom where
they effectively every, you know, year or two or maybe more frequently or less frequently can go in and clean tanks out because you can unbolt 64 or
so bolts and then physically get in there, but the tank has to be empty by the time you do that.
WILLIAMS: Yes. so yes, these are standard design so and I`m looking at the tanks, this is the old design standard, so it has an eight inch port on top
which is just to take a measurement of the tank level, so you really don`t look too hard down that hole. It`s not much you can see. And then on the
bottom, it is a standard design.
You have 64 bolt 2 foot by 3 foot rectangular port on the bottom. But your tank has to be completely drained out to be able to take that off,
otherwise you`ll leak oil all over the place.
BANFIELD: So that leads me to my next question, Wesley because none of this is making sense. They found those children in tanks nearly full. As
I have learned from you, the full capacity of the tanks is somewhere between 600 and 700 barrels of oil. That`s a lot. Let`s say nearly full
is 500, correct?
WILLIAMS: Yes, exactly. And, you know, the strange thing to me is openly available you can find the production rate of that well and at its best, it
was producing about 200 barrels per month. So it leads me to believe that the oil probably wasn`t completely drained out by whoever put the girls in
the tanks.
You know, they probably shifted liquids from one tank over to the other one, opened, put it in and then shifted liquids back to the other side.
That requires quite a bit of technical knowledge, and takes a certain amount of time to do that kind of operation.
BANFIELD: And let me stop you there because that was my next question. Obviously that drill site, producing only 200 barrels a month, is not going
to be able in four days, that`s the time it took to find the bodies to fill even one of those tanks up to, you know, 6 or 700 barrels. It would take
three months to fill them naturally.
So think just thinking that through, if in fact the opening on the top, and again I`ll hold it up, is too small for Chris Watts to as he apparently
according to the police admitted, too small for him to put those children through, he would have had to do it from the bottom, which means the tank
had to be empty or he would be gushed on by a full tank of oil. So you`re saying that there`s a pump that goes between the two tanks, he could pump
one tank empty and put the children-- now there`s the thief hatch, I think that`s your hand Wesley, correct? Right next to the thief hatch at the
top.
WILLIAMS: Yes. That`s my hand to give you scale. Yes.
BANFIELD: And that`s at the top. This is an example tank that`s similar.
WILLIAMS: Yes. That`s part of what bent my brain is I really don`t think you can easily get anything and it`s designed that way, to not drop
anything through the top hatch. They keep it very small. So eight inches is small. That`s what made me think. You would pretty much have to take
the bottom man way open, and the standard design, there`s 64 bolts, and you`ve got to drain all of the liquids out to really, you know --
BANFIELD: We have a picture of that. Put up the picture of the bottom man way. Because Wesley also given us an example photo of this tank where he is
standing next to the man way. This is the actual site. What I would like is the example site of the man way that Wesley shows us if we can show
that. It`s called the clean out man way. There it is.
And you can see Wesley`s hand. Now you can see the relative size of that opening, and all of the bolts that have to be opened, unscrewed, screwed
back on. And clearly it is at the bottom of the tank. So it`s going to have to be, really that tank going to have to be literally dry. But Wesley
just in terms of time because Chris Watts was seen leaving his house at 5:30 in the morning.
And He had to have some kind of alibi to be working by 7:30, 8:30 or 9:30 in the morning so there were not -- and it is 45 minutes to drive there.
So he didn`t have an inordinate amount of time at the site to dig a shallow grave for his wife, and do all of this work at the two oil tanks. How much
time does it take to pump oil between the tanks? It can`t be the same as the forensic vacuum.
WILLIAMS: No. I think you can probably do that within an hour, more or less, depending how full the tanks were. You could maybe do it within an
hour or so and then bolting itself, you know, we work -- I work a lot around these hands on type stuff and even with a power tool, taking out 64
bolts on both of them so, you know, 128 bolts taking them off, putting them back on, taking them off and putting them back on just takes a lot of time
to do. And it`s pretty --
BANFIELD: Yes. That takes time. But Wesley I think I mean honestly, what takes even more time, I am guessing just from what I`m learning from you,
and you`re, you know, you`re petroleum experience, if both of those tanks were nearly full well then how would you have reproduced that oil? You
can`t put two nearly full oil tanks into one while you stash a body and do the reverse. It doesn`t make sense, which now sadly leads me to believe
that the only physical way that this could have happened, especially in the time that was permitted was that he must have put the children through the
top hatch of the tank.
And to that, I want to bring in Joseph Scott Morgan, certified death investigator. He is a Professor of Forensics at Jacksonville State. Joe,
you and I have been talking about this through the day. And I know that your theory is it is just too small, the eight inch opening is too small to
put a 3 or 4-year-old through. But now you know how difficult it would be to have emptied those tanks and refilled them in order to open the larger
hatches at the bottom.
Are you rethinking the possibilities that maybe something more violent happened and that this is the only way those children could get in the
tanks because there`s one thing we know, those children were in the tanks and they were nearly full.
JOSEPH SCOTT MORGAN, PROFESSOR OF FORENSICS, JACKSONVILLE STATE: Yes. Wesley really painted quite the picture for us there relative to the
physical status of the tanks, and one of the things that I`m thinking if were talking specifically about the thief hatch on top with the eight inch
diameter, this is a problem and it leads me to a very gruesome conclusion relative to that. That means these bodies quite possibly could have been
manipulated post mortem in order to facilitate them going through thief hatches.
And this is all about the diameter of the access area, as well as the general overall measurements of these children`s bodies. Is this possible
to facilitate? Just getting the head and shoulders past that opening in of itself is a Herculean task. And the fact that you have someone who claims
that he did this to his own children. Let`s just keep in mind this paints a rather gruesome picture of him because he would have had to manipulate
their bodies possibly breaking rigor mortis. That is taking them out of rigor where you have to adjust the arms if they`ve been dead for some time
or other things that he may have done to the body in order to get them through that hole.
BANFIELD: So there is that possibility. But I want to bring up something else because I truly can`t even imagine what it is, you know, you`re
describing Joe. And God I hope as if this case weren`t awful enough that that awfulness did not transpire. But our team immediately harkened back
to 1987 when the lead story day after day was Jessica McClure.
She was 18 months old. And she fell down a well in Midland, Texas. That`s oil country. This well happened to be a well in her auntie`s backyard.
Jessica was 18 months old, OK? So she`s younger than Bella and CeCe. CeCe is three, Bella`s four. But that well was eight inches.
The opening was eight inches in diameter. So we know it is possible for at least a child of Jessica McClure`s size to have fallen into that well
without any force, at least we do know that. I want to do one thing and that is this. All of this has been difficult, it has taken us days
actually, you know, interviewing you, Wesley, going over with you, Joe Scott Morgan.
And when police officers show up at the scenes, they are not petroleum engineers. Sergeant Sean Sticks Larkin is a famous police officer known
well for his work on Live PD. Every Thursday night and Friday night from 9:00 until mid night you walk us through policing in a live fashion.
It is unvarnished. It is exactly how it happened as you all arrive on scene. You actually have your own program now, PD Cam airing on Thursday
nights starting this November. I have to ask you, if you`re one of the cops that shows up at a petroleum engineering oil rig, this is not your wheel
house, what do you do
SEAN STICKS LARKIN, Live PD HOST: Yes. This is so far from a standard police officer`s wheel house. You know the goal for us to get out there is
obviously to contain the scene because the recovery of evidence is the number one priority. So if there`s not any danger for anything else
contaminated at that point, were going to call out the professionals, the people familiar with that site that can give us an idea how can we get
inside to recover any, you know, both the victims as well any evidence.
BANFIELD: Let me ask you this, do you - I mean you have to assess things fast when you`re dealing with murder investigations, you`re dealing with
decomposition and timing can be everything, so you don`t have an inordinate amount of time. Do you do things like call Wesley Williams, PhD and say we
need your expertise before we though any of this gear. We need somebody or do you rely on these companies and their goodwill to walk you through this?
LARKIN: Well obviously, you know, if we think the victim or somebody is alive, were going to put that to the side because, you know, trying to get
them safe is the number one goal at that point. But in this case it didn`t sound like that, so we`re just going to hold it. Were going to reach out
to someone like Wesley, the owner of the property, somebody affiliated with that company to come out, bring the tools were going to need so we can get
inside.
BANFIELD: I cannot imagine the task this was for fellow officers of yours having to appear on this site and realize what they`re dealing with and
realize what they had to do, which also brings me to this. If you are wondering why eight hours to empty those tanks, those 600 to 700 barrels of
oil with the forensic pump, in a moment, I`m going to show you exactly what the crude looks like and exactly what they had to pump out. And you may
understand better how difficult and how grisly this task was. That`s after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BANFIELD: It was sickening from the day they found the bodies. The idea two little girls just three and four years old submerged in thick, black
crude oil, and locked inside joint oil tanks so that presumably no one would ever find them. But tonight, that crime scene gets sicker as we
learn really horrifying new details about what investigators had to do to recover Bella a and CeCe`s Watts bodies, and the lengths their killer could
have gone to hide them in that dark, thick grave.
Back with me, Wesley Williams, PhD, Professor of Petroleum Engineering at Louisiana State University. Wesley, one of the things you said as we came
to air tonight is that not only would it take eight hours for say a forensic vacuum truck to empty the tanks out so they could get at the
children through those man ways at the bottom but that it might take only an hour to funnel oil between the two tanks. And I think, you know, for
anybody watching, that`s hard to believe because water moves so quickly, crude not so much. Give me an example of just how difficult this material
is to work with and to empty and to pump.
WILLIAMS: Yes. Well, it is fairly fluid. It does flow well. I think the main difference I mean if you want to see what it looks like I`ve got it
here. I mean you can see this is a crude oil sample that we have here.
It`s actually a lot thinner than most people think because it is lighter than water. And this is about API 30 or 40, which is similar to what you
have at the site in Colorado. So it does flow fairly fast through a pump, and, you know, these pumps are designed to handle that.
So to pump between tanks, I would say you`re going to spend probably an hour or so. This is pumping at 100 to 200 gallons a minute. So you could
probably move between the tanks say 400 to 600 barrels. You could do that in an hour.
BANFIELD: I still think the idea that you told me this site doesn`t produce enough oil in a month to fill a tank up in four days if emptied and
sent to the other side. More to the point, you just showed me the crude oil. I was a bit surprised. I expected it to be more molasses or tar like.
That leads me to this question. How difficult is it for you to wash that off your body.
WILLIAMS: You want to see, I mean, I`ll dip my finger in it. I mean you can see how it is on my finger. Let me try to wipe it off my finger. You
know, I mean, you can still see the residue in my fingernail and obviously the smell.
BANFIELD: Sure, but ultimately for investigators and sadly for the forensic examiner, the pathologist it`s not as difficult as maybe one would
think to clear the oil off the body to get a good view and to do some good forensic analysis of how the children died and maybe if possible who killed
them, right?
WILLIAMS: Yes.
BANFIELD: Wesley, thank you for that. Stand by for a moment there. A few other things I want to let our audience know about. We have some other
breaking news that we wanted to bring to you. Last night we opened the program and told you that it had come to our attention there was a moving
truck outside of Shanann Watts and her children, and Chris`, their home, the family home in which they were mercilessly killed.
We now know a little more information about that. It is helpful to know this, that not only was Frank Sr. there as reported last night but we also
know that Sandy or Natie (ph), that`s Shanann`s mom. She was there as well, and her brother Frankie, he was there, and her dearest friend, Lauren
Arnold was likely that the woman - was in the fact the woman with the dark hair in her 30s. So at least the four of them were there to, you know, to
try to recover whatever mementos and memories of their loved ones that they could.
I can tell you a couple of things that, you know, is I think helpful to understand what was going on. And we have a couple of sources that have
been able to help us with this, some witnesses to what happened. That this was a not so much a massive move that you would normally see as it was a
lot of the memories, that`s what we`re learning. I`ll also tell you that a family spokesman has said that the children`s toys, the children`s clothes,
those were moved out, and they are going to local churches.
We also can tell you from the family that there are family heirloom pieces, and the spokesman says from our side of the family that Shanann`s mom Sandy
passed down to Shanann that will be kept because they belong to Shanann`s side of the family. I also want to tell you that the spokesman for the
family said this, as Shanann`s mom of course she`s going to go through her only daughter`s personal belongings, everything Shanann had from her own
childhood as memories.
Obviously it is now her parents` and her brother`s. I think that`s important to know. I think Facebook has been particularly cruel to this
family, and quite frankly I would say more than cruel, I would say ruthless, some making accusations of them stealing from their dead daughter
and granddaughters` home.
This is what Lou Valentino, family spokesman has told us about that and about this family. I`m going to quote her. "Sandy is one of the strongest
women I know." That`s Shanann`s mom. "Nothing, and I mean nothing, and nobody that throws jabs at her daughter or her family online, on TV, will
ever make her feel defeated. Until a human being is able to walk in her shoes for one day they have no right to judge or speculate how to properly
handle this horrific and senseless crime committed on her daughter and grand babies. Every single day is a challenge for Sandy, Frank Sr., and
Frankie."
So, I think that`s really critical to note for armchair quarterbacks who throw flaming arrows on the internet. This is a family that is grieving.
This is a family that has nothing left but the family dog. And if they went to get things like that beautiful wooden stool that Shanann`s father
made for them that those children used to play with, the little orange stool they climb up on the kitchen counters, if they went to get those
things or all of those kitchen cabinets that Shanann`s father actually built for her and installed in that home, that beautiful kitchen, if that`s
what they went to get out of this house, I`m going to go out on a limb here and say, shame on you for casting aspersions at this family. Shame on you.
They have lost so much, remember that.
I want to bring in Steve Helling, if I can, Senior Writer for People Magazine. I know that you do the same thing I do, we watch carefully
what`s happening on Facebook. And I don`t know if you`ve been as astounded as I have at what this family has had to put up with. But I know you`ve
done some additional reporting as well, Steve.
STEVE HELLING, SENIOR WRITER, PEOPLE MAGAZINE: Well, everybody always has an opinion. And now, Facebook gives everybody a microphone and they say
what they want, and they do forget sometimes that the victims` families often are looking at those things, and seeing what these people are saying.
So, you`re absolutely right there. And, you know, I echo your shame on you that you just said.
BANFIELD: Yes. I will tell you this, a couple of other things that this family arrived in Colorado, they flew into Denver International Airport,
and they drove directly to the home. This was at least five days ago or so. They were there to take care of things. Clearly, this was one of the
things they wanted to take care of. They didn`t stay overnight in that home. The moving truck was at that house from about 11:00 Eastern through
to about 5:30 Eastern yesterday.
But one of the other things, Steve, that they were there in Colorado to do was to go to a memorial that we did not know about. But we did know that
they had checked into something called the Carbon Valley Recreational Center, and that was on Saturday. And as it turns out, they were there for
a very good reason. A dear friend of Shanann`s had organized a memorial at this rec center for her on Saturday, and the family was there. That`s why
they were at the rec center. We hadn`t any idea as to why they had checked in there, but now we know. It was private, there were some Facebook
pictures from friends who had been there. By the way, Chris and Shanann had originally had family passes to this rec center, the Carbon Valley Rec
Center that their family passes had expired in March, but at least we do know the family was there at that memorial, that was one more thing.
We can also tell you this, a very important part of this trip for Sandy was to visit with the district attorney. And that`s important because Sandy
needs to be kept in the loop. Sandy will be a big part of this investigation. The whole family of Shanann will be part of this
investigation. So, that meeting happened today. According to a witness, she was there at the D.A. to have conversations. How long the meeting
happened, I don`t know. How many people at the meeting, I don`t know. But critical to this investigation, Sandy was with the D.A. today. And then,
Steve, quickly, another flurry of paperwork today, the courts making an order. Chris Watts loses again. What did they order?
HELLING: Yes, they basically ordered that he turn over swabs from the inside of his cheek for DNA, plus handprints, footprints, fingerprints, all
of that, so that they can see what physical evidence there is between the site, the oil site, of course, at home, and all of that.
BANFIELD: So, I want to just mention one other thing, Steve. As you`ve been working the case, you know, another, you know, document on the court
Web site said that a bag was found at the site, and it was a nonporous, which makes us think plastic. And that there was a bare footprint on
that`s bag, and that`s why they wanted the print. But you discovered that that`s not the only thing that was found at the site.
HELLING: I`m trying to recall what --
BANFIELD: Because there were lots of other evidence, right?
HELLING: Yes. I mean, well, you know, the plastic bag was not -- or the nonporous bag was number 26 in the -- in the number -- in the list of
things that they found. So, they have all sorts of evidence, they have all sorts of different things. Some of the things we don`t know about, most of
them we don`t. And they`re using that as they`re putting it together a case against him, and kind of figuring out exactly what happened.
[19:35:09] BANFIELD: Yes, I was reading in one of your -- one of your exclusives that on top of that plastic bag that a source even told you
there was more than that, trust me, there was a lot more evidence that they determined to be connected to the -- to the scene. And important to note,
as well, that those autopsies are going to remain private for now. The order today saying when the prosecutors get the autopsies, eventually, they
must notify the court immediately and then hand them over to the defense. But as of now, they remain confidential. And maybe what we went through
today, remember the size of this, remember what it would be like to try to perhaps get a child through that.
Maybe this was one of the reasons why the autopsy is still being held secret. Everyone, hold on for a moment. The fate of Chris Watts as he
sometime in the future heads to trial, could squarely rest with the people of Colorado, the people chosen to sit in judgment of him in a jury box.
But before his case goes to a jury, it has to be crafted by a defense team. So, what do we know about the people tasked with defending this husband and
father who is possibly one of the most vilified men in Colorado for the lying that he did on that porch alone. We`ll take a look, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:41:10] BANFIELD: It`s been six weeks since she died, and it`s been six weeks of mourning for Shanann Watts` army of friends and her extremely
close family. Her husband, however, Chris, has had a little less support, you could say, since he`s the one accused of killing Shanann and her baby
girls, and his best friend right now might just be his defense attorney. Those are the people charged with the task of convincing a judge and maybe
even a jury that his side of the story is true, that Chris Watts was a loving father, not a cold-blooded killer. Yes, that`s an uphill task, and
that`s what a defense attorney has on his plate or her plate right now.
Colorado defense attorney David Beller joins me now from Denver. I would assume that this is the kind of case you strap in and you realize you are
in for Mount Everest on this one. But even Casey Anthony looked like Mount Everest and somehow they summited. In this case, what do you think these
defense attorneys are doing right now?
DAVID BELLER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY, COLORADO: Ashleigh, these are good, talented trial lawyers. They are working feverishly behind the scenes to
try to do their own investigation, as you mentioned earlier. They`re not privy to all the reports and all the -- and the autopsies at this point,
and so, they`re doing their own investigation, not just relying on the prosecutors` interviews but trying to do their own, and ultimately, figure
out why their client did what he is accused of doing.
BANFIELD: Let me ask you this, you know, the news also from a witness broke today to us exclusively that one of the reasons that Sandy Onorati,
that`s Shanann`s mom, is in Colorado, not only to get the mementos and thing -- you know, Shanann and the children`s belongings from the home, not
only to go to that memorial at the rec. center but also to meet with the D.A., and that happened today. I know that`s on the other side of what you
do for a living as a defense attorney, but I know you all talk. What do you think that meeting might be?
BELLER: You know, and Ashleigh, I also represent victims, so I`ve been to these meetings, they`re not fun, they`re difficult for the family,
difficult for the prosecutors. The prosecutors have to, under Colorado law, under our constitution, notify victims of every step and consult with
them on every step, and really get their opinion. And so, this is one of many meetings that are going to happen. In the end, the prosecutors are
likely going to ask Shanann`s family what they want to see happen. Do they want a trial, do they not want a trial? And really, try to do their best
to make sure that the family knows.
BANFIELD: So, that`s good for the family to have that kind of involvement so that they can advocate as well for themselves. I have a question for
you, David, right now if I can from one of our Facebook viewers. Laura Willis Albrigo -- Albrigo or Albrigo, I don`t know -- she asked this, "I
often wonder if the attorneys would ever offer a plea deal where he would be required to tell the full, honest, and true story of his motive, and
exactly what really happened, and in return, they would take the death penalty off the table?" Weigh in on that.
BELLER: It absolutely happens. Plea discussions on these types of cases happen all the time, and those conversations start early. It doesn`t mean
that a plea is likely, but the question is, can a plea happen in order to not have the death penalty put -- be filed. And if a plea does happen, can
Chris Watts be made to make a statement? And the answer is yes. It doesn`t happen often. It is rare that a defendant would proffer.
[19:45:01] BANFIELD: And we should -- we should say they -- and we should say that they don`t have any discovery yet, so I could say as a nonlawyer,
they ain`t talking plea because they don`t know what they`re up against yet. That usually is the weighing that you do once you know how big and
ugly this case is against you.
Real quickly, and I got to wrap this fast, but Carrie Rains on Facebook asks this question, "When do you believe we will see autopsy results,
forensics and an actual trial for Chris Watts." What do you think, David?
BELLER: It`s going to be a long time, a long time, Ashleigh. We`re talking probably at least a year, in my opinion.
BANFIELD: I`m going to go out on a limb here and say I think it`s two. And if they ask for death penalty, I`m going to say three. We`ve seen this
take a long, long time, and there are all sorts of little, you know, boomerangs that can come in and throw everything off its kilter. Well,
think about -- think about Elizabeth Smart, took a decade to bring those people to justice. So, it can take a long time which is not good for the
family.
David, thank you for that. Hold your thought if you will. This case has been so hard for everyone involved. For the family without question. But
you know something else? It has been really hard for the authorities who are handling this every day. Got a great Facebook question about that
after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:51:13] BANFIELD: You know, there is a lot to break down in the Chris Watts murder case because it all seems to have come out of the blue, and
connecting the dots is -- I mean, it`s tough, but we have a team of thousands of you working on this mystery, dropping new possibilities every
hour on her Facebook page, and I`ve got a really good question from Sharon Noel who asked this, "Do you think the family has come back -- to Colorado
-- to be told some things in person before the autopsy is made public? The district attorney may want to spare the family shocking details before the
public."
Sharon, that is a great question and we do know, you know -- what David Beller just said is that they do work with the family. They do consider
the family a very important part of the process and they do tell them things before they do tell us. But that -- there is this critical issue on
this. Shocking details. Spare the family. The family is hurting, Sticks. But cops --
SGT. SEAN "STICKS" LARKIN, TULSA POLICE DEPARTMENT: I can imagine.
BANFIELD: I mean, this is what you do and you guys are not robots. You`re human beings. You`re dads. I can`t imagine what your fellow officers have
been going through specially at that site.
LARKIN: Right. Well, one thing I also want to talk about is the district attorney`s office. A lot of the District Attorney`s Office actually have
victim witness centers. So, they have victim and witness advocates there that deal directly with the families. Something of this magnitude, I`m
sure the district attorney himself is talking directly with the family. But there is always somebody appointed to talk to them as they`re going
through this. So, they`re not blind-sided in the public by anything.
But as far as us in law enforcement, you know, we`re fathers. I`m a father. I`ve been a police officer 22 years now, and during that time I`ve
been to a lot of shootings, a lot of homicides including the year, early in my career, where I worked in our major crimes homicide unit. And so, we
respond to every unnatural death, a suicide, a homicide, a drowning, car crashes, you know, an airplane crash even during that year. And I don`t
want to say you numb yourself to this type of things but there are -- there are those that actually stick with you. And for me, it was actually one
involving a child during that year.
BANFIELD: So, this will stick. I mean, yes.
LARKIN: Exactly, to the officers that are out there. I mean, that`s why, you know, these agencies have counselors for the officers as well.
BANFIELD: And I wouldn`t doubt that these counselors, especially the ones who had to go to that rig.
LARKIN: Yes.
BANFIELD: To those tanks that day would undoubtedly need someone to talk to about this because it is just beyond the pale.
LARKIN: It is.
BANFIELD: It`s not what we expected. Sticks, great to have you. "Live P.D." is on tomorrow night.
LARKIN: Yes, ma`am.
BANFIELD: 9:00 until midnight. I watch you every weekend.
LARKIN: Thank you. I appreciate it.
BANFIELD: You`re my --
LARKIN: You`ve been on there with us.
BANFIELD: You`re my Friday and Saturday night date. I have. It was great. I loved working with you.
LARKIN: Yes.
BANFIELD: And I appreciate you coming on to work --
LARKIN: Thank you so much for having me.
BANFIELD: With us. And we`ll have you back. I hope you`ll come back.
LARKIN: Yes, ma`am, absolutely.
BANFIELD: Thank you.
We got a lot more coming up on that breaking exclusive news. That just what it took to get those little girls` bodies out of those oil tanks and
just how long those police officers had to struggle through the process. We`re back right after this.
[19:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BANFIELD: In America, minors are being lured and threatened and beaten and sold and forced to have sex for money. This week`s CNN Hero was one of
them. But now, she`s speaking out and she`s offering safety to those who have escaped. Meet Susan Munsey.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SUSAN MUNSEY, CNN HERO: Nobody wakes up and just decides one day I`m going to go sell my body and give the money away. Traffickers or pimps know
exactly what they`re doing. Much of it is on the internet now. They`re going on dating Web sites, and they`re gaming. They`re looking for young
vulnerable women anywhere where young women might hang out. My vision was to have a home where women could come and find safety and find themselves.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: To hear Susan`s personal story and from other courageous survivors as well, go to cnnheroes.com.
[20:00:03] Thanks so much for watching, everyone. "FORENSIC FILES" begins right now.
END
