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Don Lemon Tonight

Women Protest in Anger; Senate to Move Kavanaugh's Confirmation; Trump Does a 180 Ordering FBI Investigation into Accusations against Kavanaugh; Kavanaugh Confirmation Appears Fueled By Anger. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired September 28, 2018 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[22:00:00] (JOINED IN PROGRESS)

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: So hopefully as a Friday night wish heading into what could be a turbulent week, hopefully the best is yet to come.

Thanks for watching. "CNN TONIGHT" with Don Lemon starts right now.

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: You're so optimistic. Remember our conversation about Ted Cruz and the protesters?

CUOMO: Yes.

LEMON: Yes. And I told you the power of protesting.

CUOMO: Time, place, and manner.

LEMON: There you go.

CUOMO: They were in a private restaurant. These people were in the halls of Congress. They're allowed to be there.

LEMON: Sometimes you feel that's the only power you have.

CUOMO: And sometimes it works. Sometimes it's productive. And today it seems it was. Fairness was served.

LEMON: It's not comfortable. Jeff Flake was not comfortable.

CUOMO: Nope.

LEMON: On that elevator and in real-time, you could see him taking it in. She said how she felt, and you could see -- all he could do was say, yes, ma'am, like he couldn't even look at her. And he said -- she said, you look at me. You look at me. I need you to look at me. And I think that made all the difference. I think there is a power in protesting. We should not forget about that.

CUOMO: A hundred percent.

LEMON: I don't believe should be harassed. I don't believe you should touch anybody. I think you should think about it and be strategic about where and how you do it. You should never break the law. But we should never forget that's part of our first amendment right. And he did it.

CUOMO: We agree. And she gave him a powerful message. She said, look at me and tell me that what happened to me doesn't matter because that's what you're telling me with your vote. And it seems like it sunk in. He did a very brave thing today. His brothers and sisters were not happy with him.

LEMON: Well, if you feel that you're doing the right thing, you have to do what's in your heart.

CUOMO: Sure.

LEMON: What's in your gut. I mean that's how I always operate. I know that's how you always operate. But I have to say, Chris -- I would say what a week, but I'm going to say what a day.

I went through the airport today in D.C., also here in New York, was out and about a bit. Women approaching me, upset, discouraged. Where are we in this country? What has happened to us? How can this be happening now?

It's -- women are feeling this. I mean, think a lot of feeling people, thinking people are feeling this. But I think for women today, what happened yesterday was really -- I don't want to say a turning point, but I think it ignited a fire that I'm not sure is necessarily good at this point for the Republican Party. I'm just being honest.

CUOMO: Maybe. But I'll tell you what. Whether it's hearing your truth, I've realized since the Me Too movement, I know more women certainly, but also a fair number of men -- I know more women who have had something terrible happen to them.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: Than those who haven't.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: And a lot of them have never talked about it before.

LEMON: Yes. But, Chris, it's not about -- and this is -- people always read this. You read into what you want. This is not about guilt or innocence. This is about how you treat people, how you conduct yourself publicly, especially in those hearings yesterday.

You know, telling Senator Klobuchar, are you drinking after she said, my dad is a recovering alcoholic. What do you drink? Do you like beer? It's just inappropriate.

Instead of talking about the pain of the woman, making it all about yourself. I mean it's just -- it's all in the approach. It has nothing to do with guilt or innocence. That's not what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about whether you have empathy for people, if you can understand them and feel their pain. And I tell you one other thing. People feel that the people who are representing us, if you look at that hearing, you look at the demographics and especially the age, that these people are so out of touch with society and where America is going. Young people cannot relate.

Honestly I'm just going to be honest. Young people are like, who are all these old guys who are like leading our country because they don't pay attention to the news unless there's something like this.

And when they see it, they're so turned off by it, especially by the behavior. I'll introduce her if you don't want to introduce her. And man-splaining and just the -- the arcane rules and the archaic behavior. It's -- I don't know. I don't know what to stay about that.

Your big fan Bella, my 15-year-old, you know the expression I use all the time, what you ignore you empower.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: When she heard like who wasn't being asked to testify, what witnesses weren't being asked, she was like dumbstruck. She was like, wait a minute. How are they going to find this out? I said, well, they're not really looking to figure out whether or not he's guilty or not. They're really just going to do the minimum standard, let them talk, and then they're going to move on with the vote.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: And she was looking at me like I couldn't know what I was saying.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: And I think a lot of people like that -- I mean, she's the next generation. We're hoping everything is better for them.

[22:05:00] But if they haven't done this, what they did today, there would be so many people out there, most of them women, who thought they don't really give a damn about my experience and what's about me.

LEMON: Right.

CUOMO: I don't feel safe in this society. And we can't have that.

LEMON: And young women like Bella, that's the future, and we should think about that.

CUOMO: She's going to be your boss someday.

LEMON: She's your boss now. Thanks, Chris. Have a great weekend.

CUOMO: You too.

LEMON: I'll see you.

This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.

Do you feel like your head is spinning after what happened today in Washington? Same.

President Trump, who has been pushing for a quick vote on his Supreme Court nominee Brett Kavanaugh, who has been insisting there's no need for the FBI to investigate the sexual assault allegations against him, completely backed into a corner, forced to do what he really, really did not want to do, and that was order a new week-long FBI investigation, a complete 180 from everything he has been saying all along.

And he was pinned into a corner by his arch enemy, Senator Jeff Flake, the man he delights in calling Jeff flaky. You know he has a nickname for everyone that he doesn't like.

The president had no choice if he wants to save Kavanaugh's nomination. And all of that is bombshell news, but let's not lose sight of the woman whose testimony set all this in motion, the woman who had the courage to tell her story in excruciating detail, the story of what she said Kavanaugh did to her when they were both teenager. And she told that story with millions of people listening to every word.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. PATRICK LEAHY, (D) VERMONT: What is the strongest memory you have, the strongest memory of the incident, something that you cannot forget? Take whatever time you need.

CHRISTINE BLASEY FORD, BRETT KAVANAUGH'S ACCUSER: Indelible in the hippocampus is the laughter, the uproarious laughter between the two and they're having fun at my expense.

LEAHY: You never have forgotten that laughter? You never have forgotten them laughing at you?

FORD: They were laughing with each other.

LEAHY: And you were the object of the laughter?

FORD: I was, you know, underneath one of them while the two laughed. Two friends having a really good time with one another.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: But then it was as if they disappeared her. After Christine Blasey Ford left the room, suddenly it was all about him, about Judge Brett Kavanaugh, his anger, his emotion, his fight to get a seat on the Supreme Court.

Well, today something happened that brought the focus back to courageous women, women who will not give up, women who are insisting that their voices be heard. Two of those women were moved to confront Senator Jeff Flake this morning. You got to watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I told the story of my sexual assault. I told it because I recognized in Dr. Ford's story that she's telling the truth. What you are doing is allowing someone who actually violated a woman to sit in the Supreme Court. This is not tolerable. You have children in your family. Think about them. I have two children.

I cannot imagine that for the next 50 years, they will have to have someone in the Supreme Court who has been accused of violating a young girl. What are you doing, sir?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was sexually assaulted, and nobody believed me. I didn't tell anyone, and you're telling all women that they don't matter, that they should just stay quiet because if they tell you what happened to them, you're going to ignore them.

That's what happened to me, and that's what you're telling all women in America, that they don't matter. They should just keep it to themselves because if they have told the truth, they're just going to help that man to power anyway.

That's what you're telling all of these women. That's what you're telling me right now. Look at me when I'm talking to you. You're telling me that my assault doesn't matter, that what happened to me doesn't matter and that you're going to let people who do these things into power.

That's what you're telling me when you vote for him. Don't look away from me. Look at me and tell me that it doesn't matter what happened to me, that you'll let people like that go into the highest court of the land and tell everyone what they can do to their bodies.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you have an answer, Senator?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you have a response, Senator?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Senator Flake, do you think that Brett Kavanaugh is telling the truth?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Did you see his face? And you have to listen to what Ana Maria Archila told Anderson Cooper tonight when he asked whether she thinks that protest made a difference.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[22:10:07] ANA MARIA ARCHILA, CO-EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, CENTER FOR POPULAR DEMOCRACY: I think if it had been just one story, my story and Maria's story, it would not have made a difference. It was the fact that it was thousands of people, thousands of stories, and Dr. Ford herself.

And I felt a sense of relief and a sense of possibility. I was reminded that it is through kind of us standing for ourselves, for our lives, for the lives of others that we make change in this country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Courage. Those women are courageous. Christine Blasey Ford is courageous. And courage is contagious. Let's hope it's contagious.

Senator Flake telling CNN tonight that that protest played a part in his decision to call for an FBI investigation. His statement saying that he would vote to confirm Judge Kavanaugh with no conditions was released a little before 9.30 this morning.

And then moments later at about 9:31, he was confronted by Ana Maria Archila and Maria Gallagher as he was on his way to the panel's scheduled vote. After listening, visibly uncomfortable, as though two women poured their hearts out, Senator Flake demanded a one-week FBI investigation of the sexual assault allegations against Judge Kavanaugh.

And now President Trump has agreed. But all this is really -- it's far from over. There are real questions still to be addressed here, questions about Judge Kavanaugh's truthfulness, his truthfulness about teenage drinking.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRETT KAVANAUGH, SUPREME COURT NOMINEE: The drinking age as I noted was 18, so the seniors were legal. Senior year in high school, people were legal to drink.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: The legal drinking age in Maryland where Brett Kavanaugh went to high school increased to 21 at the end of his junior year while he was still 17. So when he says it was legal for him to drink, it's not true.

And then there are questions about how much he drank during the summer that Christine Blasey Ford says he assaulted her, and I want you to listen to this exchange. It's with Senator Sheldon Whitehouse about an entry in Kavanaugh's 1983 Georgetown Prep yearbook.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. SHELDON WHITEHOUSE (D), RHODE ISLAND: Let's look at beach week Ralph Club, biggest contributor. What does the word Ralph mean in that?

KAVANAUGH: That probably refers to throwing up. I'm known to have a weak stomach, and I always have.

WHITEHOUSE: So the vomiting that you reference in the Ralph Club reference related to the consumption of alcohol?

KAVANAUGH: Senator, I was at the top of my class academically, busted my butt in school, captain of the varsity basketball team, got into Yale college. When I got into Yale College, I got into Yale law school. I worked my tail off.

WHITEHOUSE: And did the word Ralph you used in --

(CROSSTALK) KAVANAUGH: I already answered the question.

WHITEHOUSE: Did it relate to alcohol?

KAVANAUGH: I like beer. I like beer. Do you like beer, senator, or not?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: He never answered the question. And in his testimony, he also insisted that four people who were allegedly at the party would back his version of events.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAVANAUGH: All four people allegedly at the event, including Dr. Ford's longtime friend Ms. Kaiser, have said they recall no such event. Her longtime friend, Ms. Kaiser, said under penalty of felony that she does not know me and does not believe she ever saw me at a party ever.

In her letter to Senator Feinstein, she said that there were four other people at the house, but none of those people nor I live near Columbia country club. All four witnesses who were alleged to be at the event said it didn't happen.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Those four people didn't say it didn't happen. What they did say is that they have no memory or they have no knowledge or no recollection of it. That's different than it didn't happen.

Her friend, Leland Kaiser, told the Washington Post that while she doesn't remember the party, she believes Ford's story. Those are just some of the questions about Judge Kavanaugh's truthfulness.

My thing is if you don't tell the truth about the small things, then what are you going to do about the big things, especially if you're in a position of power like a Supreme Court justice or the president of the United States. But I want you to listen to what President Trump said today about Kavanaugh's accuser, Christine Blasey Ford.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What did you think of Dr. Ford's testimony when you heard that?

[22:15:02] DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I thought her testimony was very compelling, and she looks like a very fine woman to me. A very fine woman.

And I thought that Brett's testimony likewise was really something that I haven't seen before. It was incredible. It was an incredible moment, I think, in the history of our country. But certainly she was a very credible witness.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Yes, that was President Donald Trump. He called Professor Ford a very credible witness. Now, you know what I haven't hesitated to be critical of the president, right, when it's warranted. But I take him at his word there.

And what he said sounds like he saw what we all saw. He saw a credible woman there, a woman who risked abuse and ridicule, a woman whose own safety and that of her family is at stake all because she had the courage to tell her story, to answer every question put to her, questions about a devastating and intensely personal experience.

We heard her voice. We heard the voices of the women who confronted Senator Flake, and we've heard the voices of women across the country demanding an investigation, demanding the truth, voices of courage. And like I said, courage is contagious.

I really want that to be true. We've got a lot to talk about. John Avlon is here, Margaret Hoover as well, Philip Mudd. They're all here with me, and we'll get into all of it when we come right back.

[22:20:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: We're back now with CNN Senior Political Analyst, John Avlon, the author of "Washington's Farewell," also CNN Political Commentator, Margaret Hoover, and CNN Counterterrorism Analyst, Philip Mudd.

Do any of you get any sleep because I wake up to you on the morning show. Sometimes you're on. Sometimes you're on, Philip, but we're happy to have you here this evening.

So, John, America -- good evening to all of you by the way. America woke up to, you know, looking at a vote on Kavanaugh. I woke up and getting ready to fly back here to New York, and there it was on television. And then a stunning turnaround. What are the chances? What are his chances?

JOHN AVLON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Kavanaugh's?

LEMON: Yes.

AVLON: Look, Flake's agreement with Murkowski, with Collins, with others is that this had to go forward. It was proposed by the American Bar Association late last night as a way to cool the temperature, to try to heal some of the divide, to keep the integrity of the court intact after that incredibly divisive hearing the other day.

They backed it, and he backed it belatedly responding to the power of protest, stopping to his own--

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: (Inaudible) protest?

AVLON: Yes. And responding I think to his own conscience that was in anguish after the statement was released. LEMON: Weren't you on the air live when this went down?

AVLON: Yes. I was on with our friend Poppy, you know, we were sitting there and responding to this statement. And then all of a sudden there's the live shot and that incredibly awkward and powerful blocking of the elevator door. And he's not making eye contact. And these two brave women are recounting their stories to him.

And I think it just made it viscerally personal, not only their stories and the question of hearing women, but how deeply polarized our country is. And there is an obligation to try to heal it if you're in the United States Senate and not simply exacerbate it for partisan gain.

LEMON: When you -- when you think about, you know, because if we listened, Margaret, to Ford's testimony, gut-wrenching. And then, you know, by the evening, after Kavanaugh testified, that had sort of evaporated.

Do you think that this whole rigmarole that we've been going through -- do you think now because there's just a pause and there's an investigation, that women will feel better about this?

MARGARET HOOVER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I mean, I feel better. I can't speak for all women. I've been saying all week, you can't conduct -- I mean, many people found both of them -- many people found one of them credible.

LEMON: Right.

HOOVER: Often that's a Rorschach test of where you sit politically.

LEMON: Right.

HOOVER: But many people felt that both of them were honest and sincere and came by their emotions and their performance honestly. And I don't believe that we can have a republic that is governed by what citizens believe about two people's individual experiences of an event.

This is why we have rule of law. We have to have independent fact- finding missions to try to discern the best possible version of the truth that is available to all of us.

LEMON: Right. So are you saying that they were going on who do you believe before this pause?

HOOVER: I think the commentary and the -- yes. This has been -- it has been enormously politicized. There was no independent fact-finding mission outside of the political process. And the people -- people's sides were dug in and getting more dug in. And that does not serve the rule of law or the process or the faith that individuals have in our institutions.

LEMON: I got to get to Phil. He's sitting there going, hey, I'm here too. AVLON: But I think folks need to appreciate that when this goes

forward, it's a one-week time-out for the FBI to do the investigation. It will not necessarily result in the outcome they wish.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: No matter who--

AVLON: No matter who it is.

LEMON: Right. Right.

AVLON: And so I think people need to realize that this is about doing the due diligence that needs to be done. It's not about guaranteeing any outcome.

LEMON: Yes.

AVLON: And folks who are hanging on a specific outcome could be very disappointed, and they need to understand that that's part of the deal.

LEMON: You know the person who can talk to us about this investigation?

AVLON: If only we had a former--

(CROSSTALK)

HOOVER: We had an FBI investigator here.

LEMON: Philip Mudd. So, Phil, we learned tonight that Senators Flake, Collins, Murkowski, they gave -- they gave some terms to the Leader McConnell, that the investigation would be limited, right? Current credible allegations. Focus on -- should focus on Mark Judge, the friend, but not limit it to him. So considering what John just said, how does all of this play out? What's going to happen?

PHILIP MUDD, CNN COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: I wouldn't pay much attention to that term limited. First of all, if you're the director of the FBI, Chris Wray, your responsibility is to conduct a professional investigation to ensure that you don't get a question in three weeks saying, did you do everything you could during that time period to determine what happened all those years ago?

Let me give you one specific example that I think will be hugely significant. We're talking about, for example, yesterday one accuser. So you could read those words, I think, the charge to the FBI, and say, well, they're just going to determine what happened in that room 35, 36 years ago, whatever it is. That is incorrect.

[22:25:05] As soon as the investigation starts and somebody says, well, a lot of people aren't going to remember what happened because everybody all the time that summer was dead drunk, all of a sudden you say, well, did that include Judge Kavanaugh? And you open the door to determining what his lifestyle was. By the

way, to close here, I think the most significant story we will see within a week or two has nothing to do with an assault. It has to do with what we called in the business lack of candor.

Did Judge Kavanaugh speak clearly and truthfully about his lifestyle back in that period, or will we find a big air gap between what his college and high school friends say and what he said? I think that's what we're going to see.

LEMON: That's what my opening was about, about whether he was telling the truth. And I was sitting there, and the one reason I had the conversation with Chris about, you know, the folks who are leading our country -- and, listen, I'm not an ageist. Trust me. I would love for our leaders to be of all ages.

There are not enough young people serving in Congress and the Senate, or in both Houses of Congress. And so when he was -- when they were asking about these terms that were in his yearbook and on and on and he started giving these answers, I sat there, someone who graduated high school two years after Kavanaugh, I knew what all of that meant, and no one in that room knew.

No one could challenge him on what he was saying about what fff meant, what the devil's triangle meant. And when you ever play quarters? I'm like what does quarters have to do with the devil's triangle?

And the other thing. There was another thing about what boofing means. Do a Google search. It is completely ridiculous. So what happens, though, if the FBI uncovers some new women, Phil, who allege mistreated or assault or something new pops up in.

MUDD: I think what you're going to see is an investigation, people talking about the truthfulness of the judge. They're not -- that's not going to be part of the report. What they'll look at in addition to the allegations by various women -- I mentioned lifestyle questions.

For anybody who says that's outside of the investigation, I'm going to say, how can you understand what happened at a party if you don't understand whether the people there were drunk or not? I don't know how you can answer that question.

They're going to come back after interviewing dozens of people and say, this is the picture not only of those specific allegations but of the circumstances around the allegations. And senators, I presume, are going to say here's the testimony I heard. Here's what the FBI said. Is there or is there not air gap between them?

By the way, I shouldn't say this. I'm going to bet a paycheck there's going to be a lot of air between those, and senators are going to say, are we comfortable with that?

AVLON: Yes. But I think we got to be careful here. You know, frat boy culture is not literally on trial, nor is it illegal. And yes, there may be questions of candor--

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: I disagree. I think frat boy culture is on trial here.

AVLON: And I think that's exactly--

LEMON: And you know, I think frat boy culture is on--

(CROSSTALK)

MUDD: Time-out.

LEMON: No, no, no. I don't mean -- I mean that in the larger sense, that people are seeing how women are treated and that that sort of behavior has been encouraged. Boys will be boys. That's just what boys do. We're going to do the thing -- all those things he talks about in the yearbook.

(CROSSTALK)

AVLON: This is a new front on the culture wars. It's in the context of the Me Too movement, and examining an atmosphere of party culture that diminished women too often. That itself, though, and you know, coming of age at that time, he referenced animal house, you know, fast times at Ridgemont High, whatever. That cultural context that he came out of is not itself disqualifying for being on the Supreme Court.

MUDD: That's not the story.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: That's a different thing. That's a different thing.

MUDD: That's not the story. We saw somebody--

AVLON: But front of the culture wars is what we're having a conversation.

MUDD: Incorrect. That's incorrect.

AVLON: You could tell. What is incorrect about what I just said? You can disagree, but it's not wrong.

MUDD: Yes it is. The investigation -- the investigation -- the investigators don't care whether he had one beer or 50 beers. Every time a college student comes up to me and talks about marijuana use, my answer to them is the people who investigate want to determine, as they would have 500 years ago, as they want to today -- cultures are different -- whether you tell the truth or not.

AVLON: Yes.

MUDD: Did he tell the truth about who he was back then? He could say, I had 18 beers one night, 30. I'm speaking truthfully, 35 years ago. I weigh 150 pounds. That was not a good night. Did I tell the truth to the investigators or not? And they're going to say if you didn't tell the truth, I don't care whether it's about women, marijuana, alcohol. That's a problem for an investigator. That's why by the way Andy McCabe got fired.

LEMON: Enough man-splaining. Let Margaret get in here.

AVLON: Fair.

HOOVER: What I could tell was that there was an honest disagreement. You guys were missing each other. It's OK. Women understand what's going on. I could tell he was talking about the truth. You were talking about something else.

[22:29:55] Look, I -- I'm going to say something else. This, I think, has the Me Too movement and this moment actually represent a real cultural shift.

LEMON: OK.

HOOVER: You're right. There is a cultural past, frat boy culture that is on trial. That is not the question in his Supreme Court hearing, but that is what is at the forefront of all this and the treatment of women over time. And this is not a popular thing to say right now, but this examination, this self-reflection, this airing our dirty laundry in public about how dirty it's been in the past and how we've treated women in the past is actually a sign of moving forward. And I hate to be the glass half full and the silver lining, but we're getting better. This process is going to make us better.

LEMON: You seem pained by this. Why? You're like at the verge of tears.

HOOVER: Because I care about our country and I'm sincere about this. And this process, if we move through it sincerely and earnestly and as guilessly (ph) as Dr. Ford was, and sincerely as I think (inaudible) this will make us better.

AVLON: It's a beautiful thing.

LEMON: That is why we're friends. That is why I hang out with you. That is why we disagree. People are like, do you and Margaret actually -- I love you.

HOOVER: Thanks. Thank you.

LEMON: You're Ok.

HOOVER: Come on, U.S. Senate. You can do it.

LEMON: I'm getting yelled at, not only by you, but people in my head. I'm talking about my producers. We'll be right back. Thank you.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Brett Kavanaugh, Supreme Court nomination is in doubt. Today the President was forced to order an FBI investigation that will delay a vote by a week. It was a gut-wrenching testimony, though, of Christine Blasey Ford that led to all of this.

So, let's bring in now a longtime friend of hers, Samantha Guerry, who went to high school with the professor.

[22:35:05] Good evening to you, Samantha. You were in the room yesterday where it happened for your friend, her heart-wrenching and difficult testimony. How did you feel when it was all over?

SAMANTHA GUERRY, CHRISTINE BLASEY FORD'S LONGTIME FRIEND: Well, we were incredibly relieved when it was all over. Her testimony was just so heart-wrenching. The tension in the room was so intense, and listening to her have to -- particularly her opening statements, it was just ripping my heart out.

LEMON: So what did she say?

GUERRY: Well, when it was all over, she was obviously incredibly relieved. We were all together for a few hours after her testimony. And when she first came in the room, she was still looking a little dazed, but within short order, she started to get back to herself and was laughing and, you know, was grateful to be surrounded by friends. And I felt like she is going to be OK. And now that she is done her part, she is left it in our hands to decide what to do with this information she is brought forward.

LEMON: So let's talk now about what happened today. Does she feel vindicated with the President now ordering an FBI investigation?

GUERRY: You know, I haven't talked to her today. You know, gratefully she is had a little bit of a break here as she starts to put her life back together again. I can speak for those of us around her. I'm not sure I would say we feel vindicated. I think we feel like the process has been really backwards and, you know, yes, it's great that they're going to do the FBI investigation now. I give -- I did notice that Mr. Flake was -- did seem moved by her testimony. So I think this is a positive development, but it's still been a very broken process.

LEMON: You saw what happened to him on the elevator today, right?

GUERRY: I did.

LEMON: What did you think?

GUERRY: Yes. You know, the pain in that woman's voice is -- is being echoed around the country by a lot of people. During this whole ordeal, I got texts. I talked to people yesterday who were getting texts from people all over the country who were watching her testimony and crying and having to deal with their own experiences of sexual violence. It was just horrific. And I think it's good that other people are coming forward and really expressing to members of Congress just how painful this is and just how important it is for their voices to be heard.

LEMON: Yes. Well, speaking of that, because at the top of the show, I talked about how courage is contagious and how after hearing, you know, you're brave friend testify yesterday, so many people are coming forward with their own stories, Samantha, and they're challenging their elected officials to take a stand. How do you feel, because I mean it's the same as what happened to Jeff Flake. Do you think more people should challenge their elected officials?

GUERRY: Absolutely. I think we don't just challenge our elected officials. We need to challenge all -- up and down the line. This is happening in secondary schools. It's happening in colleges. It's happening in workplaces. And we have not progressed very far in figuring out a fair and equitable way for survivors of sexual violence to come forward and talk about their experience without having to pay just such a tremendous price for doing so.

Certainly Chrissy is paying a huge price for coming forward in this instance, but I'm hoping that her courage will give other people courage, because they'll see that she -- that courage of your convictions and doing the right thing, and doing the right thing by your self is really powerful. And they are not alone, it's just really important to know that they're not alone.

LEMON: You've known her for 40 years and I'm sure you've heard a lot of people saying this is politically motivated. What do you say to that?

GUERRY: Well, I think that is -- I think there's agendas on both sides. The one person in this that doesn't have an agenda is Chrissy, and there's nothing about her or her background to suggest that there's anything here that is in the least bit politically motivated.

LEMON: Do you think that Kavanaugh will get confirmed?

[22:40:00] GUERRY: Well, you know, I think we're all going to be on the edge of our seats. I'm hoping that members of Congress will consider everything that is happened in its totality along with the testimony yesterday and decide if this person is truly -- possesses the character to sit on the Supreme Court. I -- I think my guess is as good as yours.

LEMON: Samantha Guerry, thank you so much. I appreciate your time.

GUERRY: Thank you.

LEMON: When we come back, anger in Trump's America. Women are angry. Men are angry. We're going to dig into what's behind the outrage, next.

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LEMON: Protests across the country. Angry accusations in the hearings. A Senator confronted in the elevator by furious protesters. There's a lot of anger on both sides of the Kavanaugh nomination, and it's bringing out the worst in us, is it?

[22:45:04] Here to discuss, CNN Political Commentator, Hilary Rosen, Tara Setmayer, and Scott Jennings. Dream team. How are you this evening? Happy Friday.

HILARY ROSEN, CNN POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: What a week.

LEMON: So, Hilary, you know we haven't seen women this mad since 2016 and the women's March and men are angry today. This moment really stood out to me. It's Senator Lindsey Graham speaking this morning before what was expected to be an afternoon vote.

ROSEN: Right.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM, (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: I know I'm a single white male from South Carolina, and I'm told I should shut up, but I will not shut up if that is OK, because I got here the same way everybody else did.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Hillary, what's your reaction to that?

ROSEN: I think that, you know, Lindsey Graham's performance yesterday -- and that is clearly what it was -- was, you know, beyond the pale, but what he did, and people are forgetting about this, the reason he had an outburst was because the so-called prosecutor was just starting to get at some details that were unexplained in Brett Kavanaugh's calendar.

And Lindsey Graham and his colleagues has decided that they really didn't want a fact-finding mission. What they wanted to do was start attacking Democrats and by way of attacking the credibility of Dr. Ford. And so I think this sort of bluster and bullying and changing the subject has been actually a pattern for men over the last, you know, years as I've been involved in the anti-sexual harassment movement.

This is the pattern. You don't answer the question. You don't let the facts go where they need to go. You get outraged. You get insulted. You get blustery. You get angry, and you get bullying back. That is what happened yesterday. That is what Lindsey Graham did on behalf of Brett Kavanaugh. We saw Brett Kavanaugh do that all afternoon. That is why women were so upset.

LEMON: I'm talking about today, Tara. I want you to get in, because we have short time here. You said that today what Senator Lindsey Graham said there, you said it was a nice way to stoke more racism and sexism.

TARA SETMAYER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Sure. He is gone full Trump. You talked about this earlier tonight, Don, and we talked about this yesterday. He is auditioning to be Trump's Attorney General, and I think that it's despicable. What is he doing? Why did he have to bring up that, oh, I'm an old white guy? I should shut up. That is exactly along the lines of what Donald Trump has done to divide this country. He is used class. He is used sex. He is used race. All of the people who are outraged about things changing in this country, or our times are not like they used to be, that is exactly what Trump has done. He is taken that from the Trump playbook, and I think it was despicable and unnecessary in this debate.

LEMON: Scott, what do you think?

SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, when you open your Twitter feed and you'll see a lot of people are attacking Senators for being old. Attacking Senators for being white, and attacking Senators for being male. And I think Lindsey Graham was reacting to that.

But I think what we should talk about tonight is not about this one specific moment, but Don, I think you raised a good question in the intro to this segment, which is what is causing all of this anger in America. I actually think it's much deeper and larger and has to do with the crisis that we have in trusting our institutions. I think people get angry when they don't believe they can trust their institutions.

There is a tyranny and a crisis of mistrust in this country. People don't trust the process in the Senate. They don't trust their Congress in general. They don't trust the executive branch. They don't trust a lot of the major institutions that provide the guardrail of American democracy. I think that is what's driving the anger, and I think it explains a lot of how people feel on both sides of the aisle.

SETMAYER: And Trump knows it needs the CEO of forcing that on to people.

LEMON: We'll talk to you, right after this break.

[22:50:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: So back with Hillary, Tara, and Scott. So I want to read, this is a tweet from Matt Schlapp today. He said look at this photo, conservative voter in West Virginia, North Dakota -- I'm sorry.

JENNINGS: That is from yesterday, sorry.

LEMON: I mean he named these states. The photos of Senator Cory Booker and Kamala Harris, what's he getting at here, Tara?

SETMAYER: You'd have to ask Matt Schlapp. The implication to me is he is making some kind of insinuation that because they're liberal Senators or because they're minority Senators, I don't know, but I just think that trafficking in all of this is really disgusting.

I just want to say something really quick, because I know we have a short amount of time. What took place today with those two women confronting Jeff Flake in the elevator is one of the most powerful acts of Democratic freedom I've ever witnessed in my entire life. And I can tell you, I cried tears over that. Because my own mother is a survivor of sexual assault. She actually told me for the first time that she had a gun put to her head when she was in her 20s and pregnant with me. And asked to perform a sex act. And she told that person you have to kill me before that happens.

And she was able to escape. She never told me that. I'm 43 years- old. My mom and I are thick as thieves. This environment empowered her to tell her story. And those women I related to them. I just want women in this country to know their voice does matter. And that is democracy I'm glad Jeff Flake did what he did.

LEMON: To you on the set was a damn (inaudible), but I've got to get back to this.

SETMAYER: That is -- I think that was important.

ROSEN: About the politics though. What's happened is women are not politicizing this. Women are not talking about the election. Women are talking about their stories.

LEMON: So Matt Schlapp.

ROSEN: Political operatives like Matt are talking about politics.

LEMON: Hilary, I got to do this Hilary. Please, give me a chance, because we are going to run out of time. So Matt Schlapp, he tried to explain later and he said I retweeted a photo of Senators who are tries to destroy my friend, if the photo had included Feinstein, it would have been even better.

[22:55:05] But my question is, why even do this and why -- shouldn't you have the state of mind if you see that photo and Matt is not a dumb man. I know him. Why even do that? Scott, go ahead.

JENNINGS: Well, I know him, too. And I know him quite well. And I know his wife and o know his family. And we work together through the Bush-Cheney years. Matt Schlapp is not a racist. He doesn't have a racist bone in his body. I believe he and Brett Kavanaugh are very close friends. And I believe Matt when he said he was pointing out, but he was defending his friend Brett Kavanaugh. I think people have been trying to impart evil intention on Matt tonight. I just don't think it's true. I think I will say this --

LEMON: He is defending his friend. How is he defending a friend by putting up states and saying pay attention to this? How is that a defense?

SETMAYER: It is the same (inaudible) invited Milo Yiannopoulos to CPAC and had to walk that back. I mean, come on, that is some pretty outrageous things lately.

JENNINGS: I mean these three Senators have taken it upon themselves to become the spokesman of the anti Kavanaugh Democrats on the Senate judiciary committee. That is absolutely true and that is their right to do that as Senators. So, you can't have it both ways. They have become the face of the anti-Kavanaugh opposition. And, of course, Matt Schlapp is one of the biggest pro-Kavanaugh spokespeople. I mean, they're having a big public debate over this. Look, I don't think it's fair to attack the character of Matt Schlapp over this.

SETMAYER: Why those two senators? Why didn't he take a wide shot of the entire Democratic side of the dais?

JENNINGS: I don't think he took the photo.

LEMON: That is my whole point then. Why do it? SETMAYER: Why use it.

LEMON: And if you're not aware enough.

SETMAYER: Right. No self-awareness.

LEMON: If you're not self-aware, then that is a problem, as well. I get so sick of people saying I'm not a bigot. And they do things that are -- even if you're not aware of it. It's still the behavior. Be aware. Know what you're doing. We all make mistakes. But when you keep doing it over and over, that is a problem. We'll be back. Thank you.

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