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White House Defends Brett Kavanaugh after Testimony to Senate Judiciary Committee; Ford Friend Interviewed. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired September 28, 2018 - 8:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00] ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: -- a really great performance? I don't know anymore.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: We'll talk about it. We're following a lot of other news, needless to say, so let's get to it.

CAMEROTA: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to your NEW DAY. It is Friday, September 28, 8:00 in the east. The Senate Judiciary Committee is set to vote on Brett Kavanaugh's Supreme Court nomination. Will it advance to the full Senate? Senators have some very tough decisions to make today after that history making hearing that featured emotional testimony from Brett Kavanaugh and from Professor Christine Blasey Ford who claims that he sexually assaulted her in high school. So all eyes are on four key senators, Republicans Susan Collins, Lisa Murkowski and Jeff Flake, and then red state Democrat Joe Manchin. They were all seen huddling after Thursday's hearing.

BERMAN: These four senators, they have to decide who they believe. Is it Christine Blasey Ford who says she's 100 percent certain that she was sexually assaulted by Brett Kavanaugh, or is it Kavanaugh who says 100 percent he did not do it.

There are major developments overnight. Former president George W. Bush is reportedly calling Republican senators to rally support for Kavanaugh. That matters. Also the American Bar Association is calling on Judiciary Committee members to delay the Kavanaugh vote until there is an additional FBI background check. That also matters.

This morning, one big question, is there a middle ground that these on the fence four could pursue? Might they say we won't vote until there's more information. They could do that if they wanted to do that.

Joining us now is White House principal deputy press secretary Raj Shah. He's been helping lead the White House confirmation process for Judge Kavanaugh. Raj, thanks for being with us. I know you are very busy. Let's get right to it. Do you have the votes this morning?

RAJ SHAH, WHITE HOUSE DEPUTY PRESS SECRETARY: John, good morning. Thanks for having me on. We believe we're getting there. We think that yesterday was a strong step forward. We had very compelling testimony from both Judge Kavanaugh and Dr. Ford, and I think the country, as well as the Senate and the undecided senators, got to see his very clear, categorical, and unequivocal denials, and very forceful testimony.

BERMAN: Just to be clear, those four senators we put on the screen, do you have their votes at 8:02 a.m.?

SHAH: At this moment I cannot say for certain that we do. We think that Judge Kavanaugh's testimony certainly moved them in the right direction.

BERMAN: The president praised Brett Kavanaugh's testimony. You just said it moved some of these senators in the right direction. What was the president's reaction to Professor Christine Blasey Ford?

SHAH: Well, Dr. Ford's testimony, while compelling, didn't introduce new evidence, while Judge Kavanaugh's was very clear. It was very consistent, and it's also backed up by the sworn statements from three individuals who she has said were at this alleged party and could have been witnesses to this incident. So we think it's very important that not just the compelling testimony, but evidence is on Judge Kavanaugh's side.

BERMAN: To be clear, in a court of law, testimony is evidence. And now we have the testimony from both Professor Ford and Judge Kavanaugh that was submitted yesterday. As to those three other people I do want to note that that one friend, Leland Keyser I believe is that person, says she does not recall being at the party. But to be clear, she says she does believe Professor Ford. Let me lay that out there.

SHAH: I do think --

BERMAN: Hang on. Hang on.

SHAH: I do think it is important to get through it, but go ahead.

BERMAN: OK. As the president is weighing this, he heard Judge Kavanaugh. He heard Professor Ford. He believes his story over hers?

SHAH: I'm sorry, is that a -- I'm saying that we, as a White House, the president included, believe Judge Kavanaugh. We have seen him throughout his life. He's been vetted through six FBI background investigations. As he said yesterday, not a whiff of allegations of this nature have emerged in over 25 years in high profile public service. That includes a stint in the office of independent counsel where he was investigating Bill Clinton's sexual misconduct and there was a whole team of private investigators sent out to find misconduct among Republicans investigating Bill Clinton. That was 20 years ago, and there wasn't a whiff of this then.

BERMAN: To be clear, you are 100 percent right these background checks came up with nothing. It's my understand the background checks do not check prior to the age of 18. This alleged assault that Professor Christine Blasey Ford says happened, happened when Judge Kavanaugh was 16, so there is no way in theory that a background check would have --

SHAH: He would have been 17. But -- BERMAN: Hang on, Raj. Hang on. Hang on. I just want to be crystal clear about this. The president believes Judge Kavanaugh more than he believes Professor Ford?

SHAH: I think -- I haven't spoken to him since the testimony. The president has said very clearly that he wanted to hear both Dr. Ford and Judge Kavanaugh's testimony. He believed Judge Kavanaugh's testimony was honest, it was straightforward, it was clear, it was powerful. And it was also consistent with the accounts of the other three individuals that she has identified as having been at this alleged party. They have no recollection of this.

[08:05:11] BERMAN: They do not. There say they have no recollection of it. There was only one other person allegedly in the room. That's Mark Judge. He says he doesn't recall, but he has not been asked what exactly he does recall, and he will not be called to testify as far as that.

SHAH: To be clear, though, John, I wouldn't want to quibble too much, but you are saying doesn't recall as though there was some party that there is something to recall and they just don't remember certain facts. They don't remember the party at all in question, whatsoever. There is no memory of anyone other than Dr. Ford of this party. So when they say they don't recall, that recollection is entirely 100 percent consistent with Judge Kavanaugh's. There is no middle ground there. There is not a gray area of difference.

BERMAN: And again --

SHAH: All your viewers need to understand that, though. Every single account other than Dr. Ford's is 100 percent consistent with Judge Kavanaugh's.

BERMAN: All other accounts are 100 percent consistent with Judge Kavanaugh, who says he does not recall where or when he met Christine Blasey in the past, correct?

SHAH: Yes.

BERMAN: All right. Again, professor Christine Blasey Ford said what she said. The president of the United States said that this event yesterday was perpetrating a sham. Does he believe that Professor Ford is involved in perpetrating a sham?

SHAH: If you look at what has happened here, right, Dr. Ford -- and, look, Judge Kavanaugh and the White House has no ill will toward her.

BERMAN: Just be --

SHAH: I just want to say this.

BERMAN: She is the one accusing Judge Kavanaugh of sexual assault. So either you believe her or you don't. Either she is involved in what you consider to be a sham or not, correct?

SHAH: Either you believe the sworn testimony of three individuals, or rather the statements they have delivered under penalty of felony, and Judge Kavanaugh, or you believe Dr. Ford's account. I agree that you can't square the two of them. But it is very clear that Judge Kavanaugh's a clear. It's consistent. His calendars do provide some circumstantial contemporaneous corroboration of his account. And the other three individuals, again, it's very important that three individuals have given sworn statements under penalty of felony, including a lifelong friend of Dr. Ford's all say their recollections are consistent with Judge Kavanaugh's.

BERMAN: You say they have all given sworn testimony. If the judge feels that the facts are on his side, why did he refuse to support a new FBI background check?

SHAH: So I think there is a few misnomers about what the FBI background check process is and what it isn't. This is not a full blown criminal investigation.

BERMAN: No one says it is.

SHAH: I know. I know. But I want your viewers to understand this because I don't think that they may fully understand. The FBI background check process, what it does is it will take potential witnesses and ask them very basic questions.

BERMAN: Right.

SHAH: Take into account, file a 302 report, add it to the background investigation file, and send it to the Senate. Then the Senate has to do its own investigating.

BERMAN: Correct.

SHAH: Right now there are three accounts that they have outside of Dr. Ford and Judge Kavanaugh.

BERMAN: Correct.

SHAH: That support his account.

BERMAN: They haven't asked -- they haven't asked Mark Judge a single question.

SHAH: Hang on. Let me finish. Let me finish. John, can I finish.

BERMAN: The FBI has not asked him a question yet, have they?

SHAH: What would they say beyond saying I have no recollection of this event? Dr. Ford doesn't remember how she got to the party. She doesn't remember how she left or who may have driven her away. She doesn't remember the date. She doesn't remember the month. So there is not additional information to corroborate. In fact what we saw yesterday and what we have seen over the last two weeks is far, far more thorough in terms of investigating this incident than an FBI background investigation.

BERMAN: Raj, let me throw out some questions that he could be asked. He could be asked what do you recall about Professor Christine Blasey Ford? When did you meet her? What parties have you gone to with Brett Kavanaugh that you do remember? There are many questions that could be asked of him. And you know what, if you're suggesting our viewers may not understand what an FBI background check is. Do you believe the American Bar Association understands what an FBI background investigation is?

SHAH: Sure, they do. Again, I keep saying this. Everybody on the Senate dais who called for an FBI background investigation yesterday has already made up their mind. They're already voting no on Judge Kavanaugh.

BERMAN: But Raj, there are four other senators, at least three of them that weren't on that committee, and they are the ones that need to decide. And the ABA says deciding to proceed without conducting additional investigation would not only have a lasting impact on the Senate's reputation, but it will also negatively affect the great trust necessary for the people on the Supreme Court. Is the ABA wrong?

SHAH: The Senate, John, the Senate -- yes, I think they are. The Senate can't shirk their responsibility here. They and only they have the constitutional authority to assess the credibility of these accounts. You had eight hours of testimony yesterday for the entire country to see.

[08:10:06] BERMAN: With two witnesses. With two witnesses.

SHAH: Hang on. Hang on. Yes, with two witnesses. You have sworn statements under penalty of felony. These people have no incentive to lie, under penalty of felony, saying that they have no recollection of this party. This is a pretty clear account. No one is going to be able to go back 36 years ago with a perfect account of all the assessment of facts because the recollection is so unclear. And there is not enough to assess. Hang on. Hang on. So this is the best that we've got. And they've got to be able to look Judge Kavanaugh and Dr. Ford in their testimony and make an assessment.

BERMAN: The other question is, could there be more information? The FBI could go and ask more questions. Mark Judge could --

SHAH: But did you see the Senate --

BERMAN: Mark Judge could come and testify. It's just true.

SHAH: Anything could happen. But hang on. The Senate has put out a very thorough time line of all the steps that it has taken with its investigators to assess this. They have put Judge Kavanaugh under oath for three separate interviews.

BERMAN: Right.

SHAH: And asked him about all sorts of things, asked him all sorts of hypothetical things, asked him about anonymous letters being sent in from pretty -- frankly, this account in Rhode Island for which a person apologized for on Twitter and said deranged things. BERMAN: Yes.

SHAH: But my point is they have asked him questions very thoroughly.

BERMAN: I understand. Raj, I get your point. I have to let you go because the White House is pulling you back. Thank you for being with us.

SHAH: I appreciate it.

BERMAN: You say our viewers need to understand what an FBI background is. You're right. They do not have findings, but they do find out facts and ask questions. That has not happened and Judge Kavanaugh pointedly refused to answer whether he would call for it yesterday. Raj Shah, thank you for being with us.

SHAH: Thanks a lot for having me, John.

CAMEROTA: You and Raj have given us a lot to dissect.

BERMAN: I don't know. I don't know.

CAMEROTA: I know.

BERMAN: OK, go ahead.

CAMEROTA: Let's bring in CNN senior political commentator David Axelrod, former senior adviser to President Obama, and S.E. Cupp, CNN political commentator and host of CNN's "S.E. Cupp Unfiltered." Great to have both of you. So S.E., I was just so struck. Not recalling a gathering of six people in high school doesn't mean it didn't happen. I'm not sure that I recall a gathering of six friends in a house. Raj Shah seemed to be saying they don't recall the gathering of friends so it couldn't have happened. And I'm just wondering what you heard yesterday and how you think these senators will vote.

S.E. CUPP, CNN HOST, S.E. CUPP UNFILTERED: Well, let me start by saying I'm not surprised the White House has offered up Raj Shah him today. I think they are pleased with Brett Kavanaugh's testimony. And I, like everyone else, at 2:00 p.m. after Christine Blasey Ford had finished her testimony thought, this is over. This was devastating. This was a bad decision by Republicans to have a prosecutor grill Christine Blasey Ford. She was credible. She was emotional. She did not want to be there. And then Brett Kavanaugh took the mic and he was also emotional and credible. And I got into a little bit of an argument with our friend Chris Cuomo last night on Twitter.

BERMAN: That never happens.

CUPP: Never. He said you have to pick a side. And actually, I heard from a lot of people, from the middle of the country last night, who said they found both Christine Blasey Ford and Brett Kavanaugh to be credible. And I know that's hard to believe because they were contradicting each other. But they found them both credible. And, so, as I have been saying all week, this will come down to us, us

to decide as a society whom we believe and what the standards are. And that's a tough thing to judge. That's a tough thing to meet out. But it's possible to have found them both to be credible --

CAMEROTA: I agree with you.

CUPP: -- in their truth.

CAMEROTA: By the way, I think it is also possible they both believe they were telling the truth. And I think that might speak to intoxication and faulty memory after 36 years. I think that those are two very likely possibilities.

CUPP: We'll never know.

CAMEROTA: And they both believe they are telling their truth.

BERMAN: You know who might have some insight on this?

CAMEROTA: David Axelrod?

BERMAN: Or, not to talk to him, but Mark Judge, the third person who was allegedly in the room. You could ask Mark Judge questions. And that could be an off ramp for Collins, Murkowski, Flake, and Manchin. They could say we don't know what to believe. We believe both of them yesterday. Let's ask a witness. Let's have more FBI questions. David, and S.E. said we're the ones who have to decide. And I'm not going to disagree with S.E. because I saw where that led Chris Cuomo last night, but it's not us who has to decide it. It is those four senators. So what are they thinking this morning, David?

DAVID AXELROD, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: What I saw yesterday was she gave very compelling and very detailed testimony. And she was very powerful.

[08:15:00]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: But it's not us who has to decide, it's those four senators. So, what are they thinking this morning, David?

DAVID AXELROD, SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well look, what I saw yesterday was - she gave very compelling and very detailed testimony. And she was very powerful. And I think the decision that was made -- the political decision was to go tribal.

And so - and yes, I've had the most telling exchanges where Lindsey Graham's sort of outburst there where he turned to the republican senators saying if you don't vote to confirm this nominee, you are affirming the negative tactics of the - of the democrats.

They put the democrats on trial because they couldn't - they couldn't impeach her. And so, the - the problem - I hear what (inaudible) saying. The problem is this issue of no F.B.I. - no F.B.I. pursuit of this, no bringing more judges. You mentioned John, before the panel, the one person who she named as an eye witness to this incident, there's no explanation for that. This is man s going to get a lifetime appointment on the Supreme Court.

And you would think for the sake of the country out of respect for Dr. Ford and for his sake, they would want to do everything possible to get to the bottom of this. And it really looks like the Judiciary Committee just wanted to check the box.

They had to hear from her, they did. They refused to call other witnesses; they don't want to hear from the F.B.I. And they scheduled a vote for today even before she testified, and they're going forward with it even in the face apparently of the ABA request for which delay.

Why not a week's delay, isn't that - isn't that a small investment of time given the stakes here?

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Yes. Hey, S.E.

S.E. CUPP, POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes.

CAMEROTA: When one of Brett Kavanaugh's outbursts was about lecturing democrats. He insulted them, he lectured them in I think what could fairly be described is a sort of righteous tone.

And he blamed the Clintons for the situation that he was in, though of course Christine Blasey Ford has had no contact ever with the Clintons. And I'm just wondering for you as a republican, is this what Americans want-

CUPP: Yes.

CAMEROTA: In a Supreme Court justice? Is this kind of bald partisanship what people are looking for in their Supreme Court justices?

CUPP: So, I watched yesterday's hearing very intentionally not as a republican, not as a conservative, not as a political commentator. I tried to put myself in the position of a voter. And - and then afterwards, I talked to voters.

And I have to tell you, the anger that he showed; the self righteousness as you called it, the - some might call it sanctimonious. The frustration, the anxiety, indeed the tears, the raw emotion was what a lot of voters, I think a silent majority wanted to see and have been wishing someone would say through this.

They have watched many of them thinking this is political; this is a hit job, thinking that if this is the bar, one uncorroborated allegation to destroy someone's life, then this is dangerous.

This is what a lot of people in Middle America have seen and - and interrupted this week and indeed this past month to be. So, their anger was reflected by Brett Kavanaugh yesterday. Right or wrong, their reading of yesterday could be wrong. But I am telling you, they are not a minority. And when November comes around, Brett Kavanaugh may indeed turn out far more republican than democrats are anticipating.

CAMEROTA: That's interesting. That's a really interesting perspective.

BERMAN: David, they're telling us we're out of time. You want to respond to that quickly?

AXELROD: Yes. I mean, the silent majority that S.E. talks about isn't reflected in polling of plurality of people apposed to nomination of Brett Kavanaugh. And he has the lowest standing of any nominee who's ever been-

CUPP: That's why they're silent, David. My friend, that's why they were silent in 2016. They don't want to talk about their views. And so, I - I think we won't know-

AXELROD: I think it's more likely-

(CROSSTALK)

AXELROD: If - if they proceed today and tomorrow with these votes it may be that the silent majority that comes out are women who are outraged because they don't think this thing was fully bedded.

BERMAN: Guys, I wish we had like hours more-

CAMEROTA: Absolutely, could be true.

CUPP: Me too-

BERMAN: I wish we had hours more to talk-

CAMEROTA: Some days, three hours is actually not enough.

BERMAN: Will you guys come back together and talk to us a lot more-

AXELROD: I'll do it with S.E. anytime.

CAMEROTA: OK. Fantastic.

CUPP: Anytime, same.

CAMEROTA: Thank you guys very much. So be sure to watch S.E. Cupp unfiltered this Saturday at 6:00 PM eastern on CNN. And The Axe Files airs Saturdays at 7:00 PM.

BERMAN: They're so good, they have their own shows.

CAMEROTA: I know.

BERMAN: Imagine that.

CAMEROTA: They're awesome.

BERMAN: Named after them.

CAMEROTA: Oh my gosh-

BERMAN: Imagine that.

CAMEROTA: How do we get that?

BERMAN: All right, Christine Blasey Ford said she was terrified to testify at this hearing.

[08:20:00]

We're going to speak to a friend of hers about how she's doing this morning.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:23:52]

CAMEROTA: OK, we are one hour away from the Senate Judiciary Committee voting on whether to advance Brett Kavanaugh's conformation to the full Senate. This, after Christine Blasey Ford's gripping testimony, in which she said she was 100 percent certain that she was sexually assaulted by Brett Kavanaugh.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. DIANNE FEINSTEIN, D-CA: How are you so sure that it was he?

CHRISTINE BLASEY FORD: The same ways that I'm sure that I'm talking to you right now. And so just, basic memory functions.

FEINSTEIN: So what you are telling is this could not be a case of mistaken identity?

FORD: Absolutely not.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Cheryl Amitay is a friend of Christine Blasey Ford, since high school. She attended the hearing to support her friend. Cheryl, thank you very much for being here.

CHERYL AMITAY, FRIEND OF CHRISTINE BLASEY FORD: Thanks for having me.

CAMEROTA: What was it like in that hearing room yesterday?

AMITAY: What struck me was just how completely honest and straightforward Christine was and how much that - her goal was simply to get as much information out as she could. She tried her best to carefully consider the questions, to answer thoughtfully, and give as much information as possible.

And what struck me was how much that was in stark contrast with the way Judge Kavanaugh addressed questions in a petulant, entitled, angry manner - you know, "How dare you question me" - where she was truly trying to be very helpful for the process.

[08:25:00]

I was very, very proud of her, as were all of her supports in the - in the hearing room.

CAMEROTA: We have a picture of you watching her from a few rows back, paying rapt attention, looking at the senators as they were asking her questions. What did Professor Ford say to you afterwards? How did she think she did?

AMITAY: That's what's amazing, she wasn't concerned so much with how she did. She was concerned with whether or not she gave the best and most accurate answer she could have. She was puzzled at a couple of junctures about the line of questioning by the prosecutor. It didn't seem to make much sense.

CAMEROTA: Like what? Was there anything, in particular, that she thought was non-sensible?

AMITAY: Well, she - she wasn't sure what she was - she was getting at, when she harping on the locations. When we were in school, the private schools attracted students from all over the D.C. Metropolitan area. It wasn't unusual that a club would be several miles away from where you lived or where your friends lived.

She didn't understand what the point was or what, sometimes, that the prosecutor was getting at. When we saw her, afterwards, she was completely relieved, she knows that this is hardly over, but she's an unwitting hero. She did not want any of this, and she handled it with so much humility and grace and dignity. I just couldn't be prouder of her.

CAMEROTA: What did she say about Brett Kavanaugh's testimony, after she heard it?

AMITAY: She didn't watch.

CAMEROTA: She did not watch his testimony at all?

AMITAY: We - we didn't watch much either. Well, I think she watched part of it. I think she was actually contacted, at some point, by Senator Hatch's office, later in the testimony. And she did watch some of it, privately, in the bedroom. Her supporters - we were citied in a different area of her suite, afterwards, and we were not watching it with her.

She - this is not a charade. She doesn't want to see that man. He traumatized her. He affected her life deeply. She wasn't trying to compare performances. She knows her truth, and I'm glad she didn't, considering how completely petulant and - and - and combatitive (ph) his testimony was. And I'm glad she didn't watch.

CAMEROTA: What did Senator Hatch want, when he called her? AMITAY: No idea.

CAMEROTA: Is she aware that Brett Kavanaugh, again, said, 100 percent it was not him?

AMITAY: Not that I'm aware of. But it's interesting that he used that terminology, I thought.

CAMEROTA: Why?

AMITAY: Because she used the same terminology. And I think - I think that he was doing whatever he could to pull out the indignancy (ph) stops, to say, "Well, I'm 100 percent, also."

I truly thought that his testimony was so off-putting that, frankly, would you even want someone with that type of demeanor and someone who handles the stressful situations and someone who handles adversity in that way on the Supreme Court. That struck me, too.

CAMEROTA: Well, let's talk about that because if he is voted through today, if he is ultimately confirmed by the Senate -

AMITAY: Yes.

CAMEROTA: - if he sets on the Supreme Court, if he becomes the next Supreme Court justice, how will Christine Blasey Ford react?

AMITAY: Well, she - at one point, I was speaking with her, and I, off the cuff, said, you know, "You have potentially made a difference in the way millions of Americans are going to proceed about their daily lives - the rights that they'll have, the ethos of the country."

And she said, "No, no, no. That's a lot of pressure." And I said, "You know what? You're right. I don't - I don't mean that. What I do mean is what you've done is amazing, and whether it has a short- term effort on this - on this nomination or a long-term effort and helping women to come forward and know how supported they'll be, I'm not sure."

But she knows that there's still a - probably a very good chance he will be confirmed. She told her truth, not because she didn't want this particular person to do well, it was her truth, and everybody, in both the hearing room and America, needed to know who this person was.

CAMEROTA: Well, Cheryl Amitay, I'm sure she appreciates your support this morning.

AMITAY: She's a hero.

CAMEROTA: Thanks so much for sharing a bit about your friend with us.

AMITAY: My pleasure.

[08:30:00]