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Interview with Senator Richard Blumenthal; President Trump Mocks Christine Blasey Ford's Senate Testimony at Rally. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired October 03, 2018 - 8:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[08:00:00] SEN. RICHARD BLUMENTHAL, (D) CONNECTICUT: It shows dramatically why sexual assault is one of the most underreported crimes in the country. One-third of all women are survivors, but only a fraction come forward because of the kind of public shaming and character assassination and other kinds of attacks that the president exemplified in this mocking of Dr. Blasey Ford.

So it's really a larger illustration of how far this country still has to go, and frankly it undercuts the Kavanaugh nomination because it simply reinforces the kind of vengeful, acrimonious, rancorous demeanor that he brought threatening members of the committee in a way that I think did his candidacy great harm.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: What you hear from supporters of the president, Ari Fleischer, former White House secretary noted overnight, that the president was making arguments about the testimony of Professor Ford, holes that were inside the testimony. There is a lot she did not remember about that night. There are no corroborating witness who place her in the room with Judge and Brett Kavanaugh.

BLUMENTHAL: Well, John, the power and credibility of that testimony was in what she remembered so vividly and dramatically, and also what she frankly admitted she couldn't remember, which is typical of sexual assault survivors. She was very candid and forthright with the committee about the limitations of her knowledge. And she asked for an FBI investigation. Brett Kavanaugh declined to ask for one. She wanted others to be interviewed under oath. Not so Brett Kavanaugh.

So this FBI investigation is the result of the request that she made, among other reasons. Jeff Flake correctly and courageously asked for the White House to do the investigation. I think it will corroborate elements of her testimony. And she is believed by Leland Keyser who was there that night. The others don't remember it, but they don't refute her.

BERMAN: Leland Keyser says she believes Professor Christine Blasey Ford, but as far as we know, publicly Leland Keyser says she has no memory of that party or of being at any party we believe with Brett Kavanaugh.

Just one more question about Professor Ford, because overnight the majority of your committee put out a letter questioning some of the veracity of Professor Ford's testimony having to do with whether or not she had ever been involved in discussions over a polygraph. She said never in her testimony. They apparently have a witness who said she was involved in discussions about polygraphs in the '90s. Relevant?

BLUMENTHAL: What's important here are the facts, all of the facts. That's what the FBI investigation is supposed to uncover. That's why we pressed so hard for it from day one. All facts are relevant potentially. All have to be judged in the larger context.

You know, John, as a journalist you understand that you ask questions and those questions lead to other facts, and those facts have to be pursued, other sources of evidence. That's what the FBI has to do, not a check the box sham.

BERMAN: Do you want this report to go public?

BLUMENTHAL: It has to be made public in some form because of the overwhelming public interest and the issues of credibility at stake here. The FBI is the premiere law enforcement agency in the entire world and its report should be made public.

BERMAN: You're saying that even if this report finds no corroboration or no evidence to support the claims made by Professor Ford, you want that public?

BLUMENTHAL: The facts have to be followed, the law has to be pursued wherever it leads.

BERMAN: So one of the things the president has done as he always does in situations like this is question the credibility of everyone else involved in this. And he has noted that people are going through Brett Kavanaugh's past and asking about this episode or that episode, and the president has gone after you. He said about you, Senator Blumenthal, that you have made misstatements about your own past in regards to your service during the Vietnam war. And he says that doesn't make you a credible questioner. How would you respond to that?

BLUMENTHAL: This is part of a pattern. I won't allow it to silence or distract me. His statements have been ludicrously false. And I have acknowledged the mistakes that I have made and apologized for them. I am going to pursue the facts here and urge the FBI to do so as well. This quote will be one of the most important I take in my entire Senate career, and so it will be too for my colleagues. We have to get it right.

[08:05:03] BERMAN: Very quickly, I don't know if you've had time, but "The New York Times" came out with a remarkable exhaustive report this morning on the Trump family finances, dating back to the time that Fred Trump ran the organization. And it suggests that over the years that Fred Trump passed on some $431 million of wealth to his son Donald Trump, and they used schemes, "The Times" calls it fraud, to not pay taxes on some of this. Is this something that the Senate should be looking into?

BLUMENTHAL: The Senate should most certainly be investigating this potential tax fraud and evasion. The amount of taxes that were due in the range of $500 million actually were cut to $50 million through a scheme and intertwined, elaborate fraud potentially, allegedly here in "The Times" articles, and the Senate should investigate.

But even more importantly, the Congress should make sure that the IRS has resources. You know, John, the IRS's budget for enforcement has been drastically cut over the last decade. The enforcement staff has been cut by one-third, so the numbers of cases both in criminal enforcement and auditing have been reduced. And that's one of the reasons why the Trump evasion scheme as described in "The New York Times" article in exhaustive detail may never have been pursued.

BERMAN: Senator Richard Blumenthal of Connecticut, thanks so much for being with us, appreciate it.

BLUMENTHAL: Thank you.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: OK, John, let's bring in our panel. We have Spectrum News political anchor and CNN commentator Errol Louis, and "New York" magazine's senior correspondent Irin Carmon. Great to have both of you. Errol, will the real Mr. Trump please stand up, because it was, as you know, he got a lot of credit for being so measured about Christine Blasey Ford. He had called her credible. Then last night at a political rally, he mocked her. And I just wonder. You have covered politics for so many years. What goes on inside the communications shop of the White House? When the president does this, is his team pleased that he's gone after Christine Blasey Ford, or mortified?

ERROL LOUIS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: They're energized, I think, because they've got a lot of work to do. Once the president moves the goal post, changes the standards, breaks the norms, shatters the conventions, and takes the country into some new place, they're going to have to sort of do -- they're the cleanup squad. They have to come behind him and say, he meant to do this. This was strategic. This wasn't just him acting like a demagogue in front of a howling mob in Mississippi. This was him guiding the country to a better place. None of that is true, but they are going to have to pretend that it is.

BERMAN: It is interesting, because he may think he's scoring political points, but he's making a statement that goes beyond politics, because when you talk this way about alleged victims of sexual assault, it gets to our culture and our society and it has impact. It has impact on boys and girls across the country. I guess back to the politics, Irin, will it have an impact on Susan Collins and Lisa Murkowski?

IRIN CARMON, SENIOR CORRESPONDENT, "NEW YORK" MAGAZINE: It's so interesting because I think what we have witnessed in the last week is the Trump-ification of Kavanaugh. He's a creature of the GOP elite. He's not somebody who is just like Trump. But in being accused of sexual assault by these women, he has now been embraced by both the conservative elites and the conservative grassroots who see him as a victim. And I think that's one reason why Trump decided to go no holds barred, because he's seen the same poll numbers that are coming out which show that noncollege educated white people are the people who are now believing Kavanaugh, rallying behind him, thinking he's unfairly accused, and that may be a ticket to a Senate majority.

But is it a ticket to convincing Susan Collins, Jeff Flake, Lisa Murkowski? So I think he's decided to go all in. To me this was like Groundhog's Day because this is exactly the way he spoke about the women who accused him of sexual assault and other misconduct during the campaign. But it's because he's now playing to his base and he's no longer in the business of persuasion, and we'll see if that calculation pays off.

CAMEROTA: But it is so interesting because of course we have to have a cultural conversation this morning as we're watching the sands shift beneath our feet of women feeling for the first time because of the Me Too movement that they can come forward and share their stories. But yet of course it all goes back to politics. And so Jeff Flake gave us a little bit of a window into how he's feeling this morning. He was just on a different morning show. Here's what he said about the president's words.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JEFF FLAKE, (R) ARIZONA: To discuss something this sensitive at a political rally is just not right. It's not just not right. I wish he hadn't had done it. I just will say it's kind of appalling.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LOUIS: There are the timid words of a man who is being forced out of politics because of his timidity. He wished he hadn't done it. Well, it's going to take a little bit more than that to really meet the challenge of this particular moment politically and culturally.

And by the way, movements always give rise to counter movements. So Me Too and some of the speakers that you hear on the stump lately, the women would say, look, we know something will happen. We know there's going to be a counter reaction. You don't get to change the norms of the culture and everybody goes along with it. It's 300 million people, a lot of different points of view.

[08:10:12] We also I think, though, don't want to let that crowd behind the president off the hook. It is very easy to focus on him and the vile and disgusting things that he said. But there were people there who were cheering, lock her up. And if they had been silent, he might have gone in a different direction. People have to own some responsibility around what is going on in this country.

CAMEROTA: Does Jeff Flake deserve any credit? I know you classified him as timid. So has Jeffrey Toobin at time. But does he deserve any credit for pumping the brakes on this process?

LOUIS: It was the right thing to do, although, again, you always get half a loaf with Jeff Flake. He votes it out of committee and says, oh, but I'll also put in motion an FBI investigation, which could be powerful, except it is a handshake and a gentleman's agreement, and we don't know what's going to come out of it, and it's time limited. So he really is not somebody who I think kind of owned his place and his power. What he did was really give it away time after time, and that's where we are today.

BERMAN: He used the word "appalling" when he answered that question, but he worked his way to it. It was almost as if he was processing how he should answer it, and he ended up on the word appalling. Errol makes a great point. There were cheering crowds there. Everyone was cheering insofar as I can see it there. Angus King, who was on with Alisyn earlier today, said his office had been flooded with phone calls, mostly opposed to the nomination, but some people for in that all the people calling for Brett Kavanaugh were older. And older people vote. The people in that room for the president probably vote. It's interesting.

CARMON: Right. I like how they were yelling lock her up. Who is her right now, right? Hillary Clinton is no longer running for always. Is her Dr. Christine Blasey Ford.

CAMEROTA: Or just any woman.

CARMON: Or just any woman that dares to speak up against whatever the prerogative is at the moment. I think anybody who thinks that they know what the politics of this are going to be in November with respect to the midterms, I'm sorry, is BS-ing, because we do not know who is going to be more activated by this. As you say, older white people vote. Noncollege white people who may not have been as engaged to vote in the midterms may not want to see Kavanaugh sacrifice now that they see him as another Trump who the unfair liberal media and these lying women are coming up against.

BERMAN: Do we need to talk about Bart O'Kavanaugh?

CAMEROTA: We have less than a minute, so go ahead.

BERMAN: I just want to say one of the things that surfaced overnight we haven't had a chance to talk about was this letter that Brett Kavanaugh wrote to his friends about beach week. And in it, he signs its Bart, OK? There are other things he talks about.

CAMEROTA: He also says, FFF, which may be a very vulgar term of what they want to do to women, maybe.

BERMAN: Or it could be a manner of speaking.

CARMON: Or it could be some light ableism, making fun of someone's speech impediment.

CAMEROTA: Yes, that's what I think he said that it was, and he signed off that we are loud, obnoxious drunks, with prolific pukers among us.

BERMAN: So Errol, does that matter?

LOUIS: When he signs a piece of paper saying I and my friends are loud obnoxious drunks and then under oath says I never blacked out, I never did this, but I like beer, people can draw their own conclusions. It is kind of obvious what is going on here. It's kind of obvious what the Senate majority intends to do, which is just to ram this through if there is any conceivable way possible, and facts be damned. They're not waiting for a report. They're not looking at evidence like this. They're sort of doing their political duty. And we're going to see if every single one of them is going to do it or if there might be one or two defections.

BERMAN: And the point is in the committee hearing he refused to say whether he is named Bart was written about by Mark Judge, and then he signs a letter as Bart.

CAMEROTA: But, look, we'll find out by Friday. That's when the vote supposedly at the latest is going to happen. Irin, Errol, thank you both very much.

All right, even as President Trump mocks her testimony, Christine Blasey Ford's story continues to inspire other victims of sexual assault to come forward. A dear friend of our show shares her story next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:17:41] CAMEROTA: President Trump with a stunning change in tone at a campaign rally in Mississippi last night. He mocked Christine Blasey Ford's testimony.

Joining me now is Kirsten Powers, a "USA Today" columnist and CNN political analyst. She published an op-ed yesterday titled, "I was sexually assaulted and thought it was my fault. It's past time for a 1980s reckoning."

Kirsten, thank you very much for being here. Thank you for always blazing a trail for the rest of us with your honesty. It's just great to talk to you.

KIRSTEN POWERS, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Very sweet. Thank you.

CAMEROTA: I want to get to your op-ed in a minute. But, first, I want you to listen to what President Trump said last night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Thirty-six years ago this happened. I had one beer, right? I had one beer. Well, do you think it was -- nope, it was one beer. Oh, good.

How did you get home? I don't remember. How did you get there? I don't remember. Where is the place? I don't remember.

How many years ago was it? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know! I don't know!

What neighborhood was it in? I don't know. Where is the house? I don't know.

Upstairs? Downstairs? Where was it? I don't know.

But I had one beer. That's the only thing I remember.

And a man's life is in tatters. A man's life is shattered. His wife is shattered. His daughters, who are beautiful and credible young kids.

They destroy people. They want to destroy people. These are really evil people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Kirsten, your thoughts as you listen to that?

POWERS: Well, I mean, the first thought I have is this is exactly why women don't feel comfortable coming forward and telling their stories, because this is the kind of attack that Kirsten Blasey Ford has been under nonstop.

And even when he was saying was it upstairs? Was it downstairs? Actually, she said it was upstairs. She said she went up to go to the bathroom.

She remembers a lot more about what happened than I remember about what happened to me. I also can't remember whose house it was. I can't really remember who else was there.

I think my best friend was with me, but she says she doesn't remember it because it was just a random party. So, it's actually pretty typical to not be able to remember a lot of the facts around it. And she remembers a remarkable amount considering what most trauma victims remember.

[08:20:03] CAMEROTA: Yes.

POWERS: And, you know, I actually spoke to an FBI agent, former FBI agent who has questioned a lot of sexual assault victims. And he said this is very typical that you have tunnel vision. You remember all the specifics about the event, which happens almost in slow motion, but you have a very hard time remembering the other facts around it.

CAMEROTA: Yes. In fact, we have had an expert on the science of memory on this week with us who explains that even just in everyone, you remember traumatic things --

POWERS: Exactly.

CAMEROTA: -- that are different from the norm, the things that break the mold of your every day memories.

So, you wouldn't remember driving in a car to a house party. You would remember being sexually assaulted. That's just -- it's universal. That's how memory works.

POWERS: Right.

CAMEROTA: But I do want to ask you about your experience because you were so honest in coming forward and correct me if I'm wrong, you say you were, I think, 15 years. You were at a house party. You were fed alcohol by older boys and you woke up with one on top of you who had assaulted you, you found out later.

POWERS: Yes.

CAMEROTA: And I guess I have a lot of questions about this. First, why -- what happened this week? Was it Christine Blasey Ford's testimony? What made you finally want to talk about this incident?

POWERS: Yes. It was just -- I was talking to my fiance about it when the news first broke and I hadn't gotten to all the details. As he described it, I said, oh, it sounds like this is what drunk teenage boys do. And he said, no, it actually isn't.

And I said, well, and I started to just talk about what happened to me. As I was talking, I thought, wait, wait, wait. You know, this is actually not normal teenage boy behavior because actually this is the only person that ever did this to me. I drank a lot in high school. You know, I went to it sounds like a very similar school as Georgetown Prep, and there was a lot of heavy drinking and actually this didn't happen to me.

And as I thought about it, I thought, the same guy forced one of my best friends to perform oral sex on him. So, this is actually very deviant behavior and it's not OK. And so, that was basically -- it's not that I haven't thought about it before. I have thought about it before.

I never thought about it, though, as sexual assault. That's what was interesting to me because it so clearly was.

CAMEROTA: That is interesting because --

POWERS: Yes.

CAMEROTA: -- this is a moment, right? So this is a moment. You and I have talked about sexual harassment, the #metoo movement, and this is yet another step where suddenly women could think back through the '80s or '90s or whenever and think --

POWERS: Yes.

CAMEROTA: -- oh, there is actually language for what happened.

POWERS: Yes.

CAMEROTA: There is actually a term for this. There is actually a crime for this.

POWERS: Right. Well, when I thought about it, I just thought nobody would call it sexual assault. We didn't even call my friend being forced to have oral sex sexual assault. You know, I mean, that's just what's so crazy is that sexual assault was -- unless you have to be bloodied, broken bones, a stranger, that was sexual assault.

It wasn't something that the popular basketball player who was on the honor roll did to you.

CAMEROTA: And why do you think -- I'm so glad you say there was just this one guy. Of course, the vast majority of all of our guy friends, I mean, 99.9 percent were good guys, fun guys obviously, that would never consider doing this.

But there was often one guy that we knew about and avoided because that guy was gross.

POWERS: Yes.

CAMEROTA: And why do you think that so many women our age have this experience of some sort of sexual assault in their backgrounds?

POWERS: I think, you know, based on all the people that have come forward to me, including people I have known my entire life that never told me about being sexually assaulted, including rapes, you know, where they were actually violently raped and had never told me about it, I do think people have this sense during that time that, A, they wouldn't be taken seriously. And again, where do we get this idea? Well, let's go back to the clip of Donald Trump who is trapped in the '50s, '60s, '70s, '80s, right?

And let's be honest, I think there are a lot of people who still feel that today precisely because there are a lot of people in this country who will mock you and say, well, there is no way this could have happened because you would have told somebody, or you would have reported it or you would have remembered more details. I mean, it is not just Donald Trump that is saying this. This is a lot of people who I actually know personally and otherwise respect and I see them coming to the defense of Brett Kavanaugh and making this argument.

So, if you see people doing that, why would you come forward?

CAMEROTA: Great point.

And you also hear lots of people, certainly the president on down, saying that it's actually men who are being falsely accused and men that are the victims here.

POWERS: Right.

CAMEROTA: So let's bring in CNN political commentator, proud Republican, or was at one time.

ANA NAVARRO, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes. I'm feeling a lot of shame these days. For the last 18 months, two years.

[08:25:00] CAMEROTA: So, as you listen to this conversation, what are your thoughts?

NAVARRO: You know, first that it takes so much courage. I think that because we're having these conversations, I think because we're having these conversations amongst our generations and older generations, the younger generations, the women that are coming up now are going to have an awareness about what it means and what their rights are and what is supposed to happen and not supposed to happen that people our age and older did not have.

So, you know, I think it's one of these watershed moments in American history where things should be and maybe will be a little bit different. But certainly I think women are different. They're speaking out.

There is less, I'm not saying it is all gone, but there is less of a shame from women. And, look, it's a conversation that has permeated practically every sector of America. You might be on one side or the other, but everybody in the United States right now is talking about this issue. And there is much more awareness on this issue.

I hope that, you know, those people who think that this is unfair and that this is the victimization of Brett Kavanaugh sit down with their sons and daughters and explain what -- what normal behavior and appropriate behavior is and that this becomes a learning moment for America.

CAMEROTA: Look, we have talked about that. This is -- I have had so many conversations around my dinner table with my son and daughters over the past two weeks. That's the silver lining. This is a teachable moment, and the taboos are being busted by everybody like Kirsten who speaks out, for sure.

But what do you think of the backlash, Ana? I'm just sticking with you because of all of your Republican circle and friends. What do you think about the backlash that this is a disorienting time for men? Men do feel threatened. Men fear that if you are alone in the room with a woman, you'll be accused of something. What is the response to that?

NAVARRO: You know, guys, this really isn't that hard. If you want to have sex, do it with a consenting adult or a consenting female, hopefully while both of you are somewhat, you know, cognizant of what you are doing. And if there is consent, this is not that hard.

There is no reason to be afraid to be alone with a woman if you are not behaving in a way that should make you afraid. I think Donald Trump is right, this is a scary time for men. It is a scary time for sexual harassers. It is a scary time for people that have gotten away with it for decades. It is a scary time for Harvey Weinstein and Bill Cosby and Donald Trump.

Remember that the man who was saying this, what you -- you know, it's one of these things with Donald Trump where you just say to yourself, the gall of this man. I mean, he has no self-awareness. This is a guy that goes after John McCain and calls POWs losers after having dodged the draft four times.

This is a man who goes out there and talks about what a scary time this is for men and mocks Christine Blasey Ford when he's got more than 50 credible accusations of assault against him and what we're seeing what he's dealing with people like Stormy Daniels. I mean, the hypocrisy, you know? And to see all the people around him cheering, it really is almost surreal. CAMEROTA: So, Kirsten, look, I think we need to say that there are

accusations that are proven false are a fraction, I mean minuscule amount of accusations. All of the guys that we knew as teenagers that we hung out with, that we went to parties with are never accused because they never do anything wrong like this. But what are your thoughts about the whole landscape?

POWERS: Well, I mean, the way I see it is I see just it as a lot of entitlement and this idea that we shouldn't be held accountable. It was a different time. Maybe I crossed the line with somebody. I think they're afraid that things from their past are going to come up.

I think -- I've even heard this saying this is a different time. I said no. It was a different time, but it was never OK.

And, so, like you said, there were plenty of people who knew it wasn't OK. As I say in my column, I know -- I learned about all the things that happened because one of my male friends told me that this boy was bragging about it to a group of boys, and my male friend was visibly shaken by it. So, this is not something that was just normal behavior.

And so, the way I see it is a bunch of men feeling entitled, feeling like they shouldn't have to be held accountable for things they have done in the past. And like Ana said, unless you actually sexually assaulted somebody, I think you are probably OK.

I'm not saying there has never been a false accusation. They're just extremely rare. And to hear people like Donald Trump Jr. saying I'm more concerned for my sons than I am for my daughters, OK, here's a reality check, every woman I know -- now, I'm sure there's some women out there that's going to claim this is not the case for her.

But I will say, every women I know on an almost daily basis makes decisions about what to do so they will not be attacked by a man. Women are not afraid when they go into parking garages that a woman is going to attack them. They are afraid that a man is going to attack them.