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Crime and Justice With Ashleigh Banfield

Dad Slaughters Family, Dumps Bodies; Chris Watts On Phone With Wife`s Family; Giving Some a Place to Call Home; Latest on Watts Case. Aired 6-8p ET

Aired October 04, 2018 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[18:00:00] (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Another bombshell tonight.

The phone call no parents can prepare for.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You will always be daddy`s little girl.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: With your daughter`s and granddaughter`s accused killer on the other end of the line.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You have to be sensitive towards the family, because they`ve lost their daughter and they`re devastated.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did Chris Watts speak to his in-laws for the first time since police say he killed his whole family?

CHRISTIAN WATTS, HUSBAND OF SHANANN WATTS, SUSPECT: We had a very emotional conversation, but I`ll leave it at that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What could he possibly have to say to them behind bars?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He is not doing well at all.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: As they handle what`s left of Shanann`s life.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Shanann Watts` father moving a bed frame and what appeared to be a mirror.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It just -- you know, it really kind of grips my heart to make it even more real.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How could Chris defend himself now?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What you want to do is make sure that he doesn`t say anything that can actually be used against him.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Will his lawyers try to get that alleged confession thrown out?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As Chris allegedly told police, a father who threw into a rage when he saw his wife strangling their daughters.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The man who represented one of the most hated killers in the country.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is the worst mistake of my life.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Will help us hash out what could be a dark denial.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, HOST, HLN CRIME AND JUSTICE: Good evening, everyone, I am Ashleigh Banfield. This is "Crime and Justice."

And tonight the darkest developments since Chris Watts was put in handcuffs, accused of killing his wife and daughters and dumping their

bodies at his work site and then telling everyone they were missing. The formerly heroic family man has spent the last weeks in jail, solitary, all

alone, 23 hours a day.

But today, Chris Watts got to venture out to the phone banks, because today Chris Watts had a very important call. And on the other end of that call

the brother and the parents of the dead pregnant wife Chris Watts allegedly confessed to strangling. The uncle and the grandparents of the dead little

girls, police say he submerged in the oil tank. No doubt that uncle and those grandparents had some choice words for their inmate of an in-law, but

today the conversation may have been limited. Because they have something specific to sort out. They had something urgent.

Joining me now live, "Crime and Justice," producer, Kyle Peltz. Kyle, the notion that this family after all they have gone through trying to deal

with the reality of losing their daughter, their granddaughters, burying them in North Carolina, found themselves in a phone call. The first

confrontation with Chris Watts since they lost Shanann.

KYLE PELTZ, CRIME AND JUSTICE PRODUCER: That was the big question today, we knew they have a phone call scheduled with Chris Watts himself actually

be on that call? He dialed in today from the Weld County Jail with his attorney sitting right beside him.

BANFIELD: So he has two attorneys for his murder case and the D.A. has been very clear to us, hey, this probate issue that has been launched by

Shanann`s family. This is not a part of the criminal case. This is not a part of the D.A.`s office, this is a civil matter separate from us and yet

both of those attorneys and the D.A., himself, were involved in this phone call. How were they all placed? Who was where and why?

PELTZ: That is right, you said that the D.A. for a long time has been saying, hey, this is a civil case, not a criminal. We have nothing to do

with that, but the prosecutor, himself, was actually in court today.

BANFIELD: Michael Rourke.

PELTZ: Michael Rourke.

BANFIELD: In court.

PELTZ: In court. Although it seems he was there as a visitor. He was in the courtroom gallery as was another one of Chris Watts` defense attorney.

BANFIELD: John Walsh?

PELTZ: John Walsh, yes.

BANFIELD: So, John Walsh and his other defense attorney for the criminal case Kate Herald, of course, they are involved in defending him against

these murder charges, the nine felonies that he is faced with. But Kate Herald somehow was in the jail seated beside Chris Watts on this phone call

with the family and his other attorney and the big cheese himself, Michael Rourke was sitting in the gallery in the courtroom presumably on speaker

phone with the Judge.

PELTZ: Exactly, Kate Herald was right there with Chris. As you said, she is the one tasked with defending him in this murder case, one of his

attorneys in the courtroom.

BANFIELD: So he gets on the phone, on the other ends, invited to be a part of this call, critically is Shanann`s father, that is Frank , you can see

on the list of people involve here. Critically Frank Rzucek, the father of the murdered pregnant wife of Chis Watts is on that phone call. He is the

one petitioning to say I want to be Shanann`s personal representative in all of the affairs of her estate. I want to be that person. That point

person.

[18:05:08] Sandy Rzucek, his wife, Shanann`s mom also invited to be on the call. Frankie Rzucek, Shanann`s brother and you know, by all accounts best

friend on the call as well. And then you can you see all the lawyers that we just talked about? Do we know if that family, if Frank Senior or Sandy

or Frank Jr. who has known to be very outspoken of what he thinks of Chris Watts on Facebook? Do we know if they spoke to him?

PELTZ: We have no idea who spoke on that call. And a big question, too is did Chris even utter a word on that call or were his attorneys talking for

him? We don`t know. But it is pretty -- it had have been pretty chilling and very uncomfortable for that family if Chris Watts was speaking.

BANFIELD: And they knew. They were privy to know who was on the call. So, when they were dialing in, they were allowed to know that he just might

be there, he might be standing by. They might hear his voice. And who knows, like you said, the information is limited. We do know this was

scheduled to be one full hour, this emergency probate hearing. One full hour. What was it actually?

PELTZ: It was, I have the exact time here, 10 minutes and 40 second is how long this hearing lasted.

BANFIELD: What did they ask? What do they do in 10 minutes and 40 seconds? What was asked and answered?

PELTZ: Well, exactly, normally, I mean, 10 minutes and 40 seconds would yield pages of pages of transcripts of what happen. I will hold it up for

the camera here, this is the page we got today, half page of notes on what happened in court. No specifics other than who was on the call, and the

final outcome of this request.

BANFIELD: I am assuming, though, that since this was a request by the family of Shanann to, you know, to take over the representation of her

estate. That the judge would have had to ask, do you oppose this? At the very least, maybe we don`t have it in prose, that exact sentence. But do

we know if there was an answer to that question?

PELTZ: There was an answer. It said, no one opposed and Chris Watts did not oppose.

BANFIELD: We don`t know if he spoke those words or his representatives spoke the words for him.

PELTZ: Right that is not clear.

BANFIELD: It`s bizarre, though, if he wanted to be on that call, his lawyer could have been on that call from her office.

PELTZ: Exactly.

BANFIELD: He wanted to be on that call. Arrange would had been made with Weld County Jail to get him out of that cell, where he sits rotting 23

hours a day, except for that one hour he gets -- the hour out room. Why would he want to be on it, if he wasn`t going to speak?

PELTZ: Exactly.

BANFIELD: So, what else do we know, about the actual estate issues? Because it seemed like this was pressing. This was something called an

emergency hearing, which needed to be done right away. What was the rush?

PELTZ: Well, we know Shanann`s father mentioned life insurance as one of those reason and her car.

BANFIELD: And that is interesting. Because it`s her car and there`s his car. And they both on Facebook had you know, uttered that -- that it

belonged to Shanann at some point. I think Shanann had mentioned it, well, it`s my truck, actually. So now do we know what car? Was it the Lexus or

was it the truck that was towed off for evidence?

PELTZ: Right, we are thinking it was probably Shanann`s Lexus that she recently got. But as you mentioned, they also had Chris` truck. By Chris

own allege admission to the police that is the truck he used to cart their bodies to their final burial site.

BANFIELD: You know, I think a lot of times, when we discussed this truck. You see the pictures of it being taken away on a flatbed into evidence,

that if you read the fine, you know, in between the words and the arrest affidavit, they say that those bodies, I had assumed the bodies were in the

bed, in the back of the truck. They were actually in the back seat.

That all three bodies were put in the back seat of that truck. It`s so sad to see this happening. You know in the darkness of night, I presume this

was the Wednesday night they pulled him in and charged him with murder. And then just hauled away that truck as evidence that those bodies were in

the back seat. And we don`t know how long that truck is going to actually be held as evidence, do we?

PELTZ: No, we don`t know.

BANFIELD: By the way, I just saw 11:39 on the back window. Maybe I didn`t notice it before, but it certainly looks to be a fleet number. Almost

like, there is an 1139, the number 1139 in the back window at the driver`s side, you will probably see that in a moment. That image will flash in a

moment, but that makes me wonder if this didn`t belong to them at all.

PELTZ: Right.

BANFIELD: That this actually belonged to Anadarko. They kept calling it Chris`s work truck, even the police called it Chris`s work truck. And we

wondered, what does that mean? There it is, 1139 right there. If that is your personal truck. Would you have an 1139 -- would you have a number? A

four digit number on the window?

PELTZ: That is a good question. We had been asking who this truck belonged to, pretty much since the beginning of the case have not gotten a

clear answer on it. But it may be very well have been Anadarko`s truck or it could had been Chris and Shanann`s.

BANFIELD: I have worked for plenty of companies that have a fleet. Cameramen all have a van or some kind of a vehicle. There is often a

number, I think any of us out there, if you work for a company that has company vehicles, typically, there is a number.

[18:10:03] I`m just noticing this literally live as we are speaking for the first time. But I can only presume, Kyle, that maybe it doesn`t pertain to

this truck. Maybe this hearing where they say there is a car and there is life insurance pertains to that Lexus. And she had talked about that

Lexus. She had talked openly about how proud she was about Lexus on her Facebook.

PELTZ: Right. She was getting money from her company to make those car payments, because I guess the level that she was there, but yes, she was

very proud of that vehicle.

BANFIELD: You know I want to bring in Kirk Nurmi, Kirk is a defense attorney and he is also the former attorney for Jody Arias. That is why

Kirk`s name is often very familiar to us. Kirk, thank you for being with us today. I will talk to you a lot about preparing the ultimate defense

for a guy like this who seems to be pretty hated for the fact pattern that we know of or at least the police allege he has confessed to, but right

now, I want you to tell me a little about this probate hearing.

We never cover these things. Probate is boring. It just goes right under the radar. But this is different. They were on the phone with the now

accused of killing their daughter and their grandchildren and the brother listening to his in-law possibly speaking. Can you help shed any light on

what that call might have been like and fill in the lines that they didn`t write on that document Kyle just showed?

KIRK NURMI, FORMER ATTORNEY FOR JODI ARIAS: Well, Ashleigh, it`s great to be with you. I think in temps of that document, obviously, I think there

was a lot of things that were left out of that do you mean. Probably a lot of thing unsaid by both parties that want to be said. But I`m sure though

his defense attorneys were there to make sure that things didn`t go off the rail that emotions didn`t get the better of him and that he didn`t sabotage

his criminal case in some way by saying something out of emotion.

BANFIELD: And then would you also assume, Kirk that is not strange that we saw in black and white that the D.A. himself attended this hearing? Sat in

the gallery? And that his other criminal defense attorney, his other public defender who seems to be lead chair at least at this point, John

Walsh, was also seated in the gallery in the courtroom while Chris` second defense attorney was in the jail with him. Does that seem strange to you?

Or were they all just waiting for any utterance of any kind?

NURMI: I think they were waiting for any utterance of any kind. But keep in mind, too, Ashleigh, Mr. Watts is really under a microscope right now.

Because it`s the D.A. that is going to decide whether or not he wants to charge Mr. Watts with death. He wants to seek the death penalty. So he is

going to go in, any opportunity he had to go in and evaluate Mr. Watts` demeanor, how he acts in order to make that evaluation to decide do I want

to charge this man with death?

BANFIELD: So let me ask you this. And again, probate is typically so pro forma. It`s just you know, it`s boiler plate and one of those boiler plate

questions really turned out to be not to be boiler plate at all. It turned out to be very, very sad.

That question was, does the decedent Shanann have any surviving children or descendants. And they had to check that box no. Kirk, do you have any

idea whether they would have read that in you know, open court, over that phone line so that Chris would have to digest that moment?

NURMI: I really don`t know. I have not done probate, myself. But my guess would be that would be a part of the record in terms of the

formalities that were made in court, to lay down that record. To make sure that record was full and complete.

BANFIELD: Kirk, stand by for a moment. I want to bring in Bonnie Bowles. Because you just mentioned it, probate is unique. And Bonnie happens to be

an estate probate attorney and in Colorado, too, so you know, a thing or two about this. Not only that, you are a personal family attorney and a

family wealth planning institute. So, Bonnie, tell me about this, like normally boring, perfunctory kind of hearing, it was scheduled for an hour,

it ended up in ten minutes, does that all sound normal or did something go off?

BONNIE BOWLES, ESTATE AND PROBATE ATTORNEY: Hi, Ashleigh, it`s great to be with you. I would actually consider a 10-minute hearing probably normal

for what they were discussing today. The petition that Frank Sr. filed is for both to have him appointed as personal representative, which is what

was discussed today as well as determine Shanann`s heirs and that from what I can tell especially from the fact that the hearing was only 10 minutes

was not discussed today.

So I don`t think that question about did Shanann leave any surviving children would have been asked in open court today, but I do anticipate

there is going to be a future hearing to determine who her heirs are.

BANFIELD: That is what becomes so fascinating here. Because typically if you`re entire family is wiped out, that surviving family member or spouse

would end up being the beneficiary. And listen, it doesn`t matter what you think. Shanann didn`t leave a will. And so the state kicks in. Given

that, Bonnie, Shanann didn`t leave a will. Does that mean instantly the state says, the surviving spouse gets everything?

[18:15:20] BOWLES: Well, that is what the probate code says. However, there is another statute, called the slayer statute does that clarify.

Listen, if you are inheriting, but you are the one who cause the fact that the inheritance is even happening, then you don`t get to financially profit

from the estate anymore. Even though, Chris, in normal circumstance would have been considered the sole heir of Shanann`s estate. If that statute

kicks in, which would be the case if he is found to be convicted.

That means he is treated as if he pre deceased her, and then the statute says OK, then if she left any surviving children, they`re not the heirs.

We know that is not the case. So then it goes to her parents in equal shares.

BANFIELD: And would they have to actually start the statute? Would they have to take any kind of action to get the slayer statute into play or does

it automatically happen?

BOWLES: So it would need to be alleged in a motion to have the judge determine what`s called her in test state heirs and it means passed away

without a will. So we`re looking at Colorado statute.

BANFIELD: So they need a lawyer, they need a lawyer, they need somebody to advise them as to how to sort of get that ball rolling. One quick

question, and I just got this, Bonnie, it`s really interesting. It`s the quit claim deed on their house, that house on Saratoga trail, we have been

seeing in the pictures. It`s a beautiful home outside and inside. It`s fairly new. Just a few-years-old, it`s in a brand new development.

And it was worth upwards of I think $400,000. That is a lot of money. It says that the deed is made between Christopher Lee Watts and the County of

Weld and the state of Colorado, grantors, and Christopher Lee Watts and Shanann Watts as joint tenants. That effectively means they owned the

house together, correct?

BOWLES: Correct. He essentially gifted his half to her when he signed that deed.

BANFIELD: So, well, help me out there. He gifted his half to her? Meaning she owns this house, by the state?

BOWLES: No, she gifted half of what they own in that house to her. Yes.

BANFIELD: So we`re still at the same spot here, where it is half and half and one-half is deceased. And now we need to decide this state needs to

decide if the other half caused that death and, therefore is not privy to the benefits of Shanann. And if that is the case, then you would need a

conviction? You`d have to wait right through the whole process to a conviction, correct?

BOWLES: Yes, that is what the statute says. It uses the word convicted. Now, what is very, very interesting about that deed it says that they are

joint tenants. Now again under normal circumstances, what that word would mean or that phrase, joint tenants is that Chris would inherit Shanann`s

half automatically without the probate court involved whatsoever if she passed away before him. Now, because we`re in a situation where

potentially he was the cause of the fact that he`d be receiving her half, pursuant to the phrase joint tenants, now a question is raised as to

whether he can actually receive that by way of that phrase on the deed. And so I`ve actually dealt with a probate case here in Denver, where it was

a similar scenario, wife killed husband or was accused of killing him. They own the home as joint tenants, and when her family went to try to sell

the home to support their minor children, financially, the title company refused to move forward until that half was clarified in the courts.

BANFIELD: I guess it`s also dry until you realize what the stakes are here. Because there are plenty of people, very angry about the notion that

a man facing this heinous -- a crime could be the, you know, could inherit everything. And so it`s fascinating to hear how you put it and how probate

lists it out and the fight that actually has to ensue. Hold that thought for a moment, Bonnie, if you will, because there is also a lot of noise

being made right now about whether, in fact the police have enough evidence to be able to convict him. How can anybody possibly know? We are seven

weeks into what could be a year`s long case. And not only that, what about that alleged confession? Is there any way that could be tossed out? Those

questions next.

[18:20:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Three counts of murder in the first degree.

One count naming Shanann Watts. One count, naming Bella, one count naming Celeste.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Chris Watts is alone 23 hours a day.

WATTS: I need to see everybody again. This house is not complete with anybody here.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He never once cried.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I look at my little girl asleep. I don`t know how anybody can do that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: There are two sides to this story. One side explains why Chris Watts is in jail facing five counts of first degree murder with police

saying he killed his whole family. And his news stories rise to the surface like the stories about Chris` alleged affairs.

[18:25:00] That side of the story starts sounding worse and worse for him, but the other side of the story is the one police allegedly heard from

Chris, himself, when they brought him in for questioning. Not Chris Watts the killer, but Chris Watts the caring dad, who says he witnessed a

nightmare. His own wife strangling their beautiful daughters and was forced to do something about it, himself.

The police just did not buy that for a moment. And that is why he is sitting in the courtroom in orange in this picture. And if he ends up in a

courtroom at the end of this process for a trial a jury may not buy that story either, but all of it could come down to just one juror. One,

thinking maybe. Maybe, maybe his story is possible. Joining me now defense attorney and the man who was tasked with defending Jody Arias.

Kirk Nurmi, he wrote a book about the experience that just about sums it up. Trapped with Miss Arias.

Kirk, I want to ask you, what it is like when you are tasked with defending someone who is not likable. Jodi was not likable. You said it yourself,

nine days out of 10, you didn`t like Jodi Arias. Those were your words, and this man is not likable mostly because he got up in front of the

television cameras the day after the death and told everyone that his family was missing. Only days later, he would say he buried them. So what

is it like to be task with defending someone everyone hates?

NURMI: Well, as you say, though, it`s not a matter of liking him. How you feel about him personally doesn`t really factor into it. I use the analogy

of a surgeon doing a surgery on some of the contents to the E.R. You don`t assess their background on whether you like them when you do it. You go to

work, you focus on their legal interests. And that is what you are there to protect as best as you can, so the animosity outside of the courtroom is

something that you do your best to ignore.

BANFIELD: I know that you are not privy to the discovery in the case against Chris Watts, the hell of the defenders of Chris Watts only just got

it, and I think some of it the other day. So there is a lot that we don`t know in this case. It`s a little difficult for me to ask you to be an

armchair quarterback in this. With what you do know, do you have any idea of how you would tackle this, I think fair to say uphill battle?

NURMI: Well, obviously, like you said, there is a lot of factors we don`t know, regarding the autopsy, maybe the text messages, things that were

found on their phone. But given that Colorado does have the death penalty and given the inherent just abhorrent behavior involved in this case. As

with the case with any murder, but we`re also talking about a man possibly killing his two children, I would be looking at trying to plea this case

out before it ever made it`s what I to a courtroom, trying to make sure that the death penalty was off the table and justice was served and working

with that county attorney to try to resolve things in that manner.

BANFIELD: So you are way better at this than I am. I am just on TV. And you actually have a law degree.

I have to beg to differ on this. Because it looks to me, with this fact pattern that he allegedly, if you believe the police version of the

affidavit, he confessed to them. He gave them his fact pattern.

That he witnessed his wife strangling two kids. He jumped in a rage and killed her. If you can get one juror to believe that, then I think as I`ve

heard it, you can get that intent reduced to recklessness or criminal negligence, because he was in defense of others. Now, that changes the

entire ball game here.

That doesn`t mean you will just spend life in prison.

That actually means you could get out with just manslaughter and maybe just 10 years. Am I wrong?

NURMI: Well, are you not wrong, but you`re thinking from Mr. Watts` perspective would be a bit wishful. When you go in front of a jury. And

you have the kind of fact pattern that you have, the reasonable doubt that you have is lesser. It is decreased. We`re talking about a dad killing

his own children. So he is already going to be looked at with rightfully skeptical eyes. We also already have inconsistent stories here. So, yes,

the jury would have to believe it, but it depends on what the contradiction, what could be lost if you go to trial. Could it be his

entire life or could it in fact be lethal injection? That is the calculus that has to be done. Because I think the likelihood of this being proven,

his story being proven, this manslaughter related story is probably pretty unlikely.

BANFIELD: Well, I would agree with you, except for, because I feel like I`m a reasonable person. I feel like I`d be a good juror because I am

reasonable and I know the definition reasonable doubt.

[18:30:03]

But I`ve also covered cases where I could not believe the level of irrationality when it came to determining that doubt. I`m talking about

Casey Anthony. That one was to me looked like a layup. I`m talking about O.J. That looked like a layup, too.

I can sit here for the next two hours and look at cases that look like layups. And yet one juror, one juror thought, I don`t know, maybe, could

be, and that`s why I say, if you are stubborn, if you are pig headed about it, couldn`t a Chris Watts look right back at his attorneys and say, I`m

going for it?

KIRK NURMI, FORMER ATTORNEY FOR JODI ARIAS: You bet. I mean, ultimately the only thing the the attorney can do is advise him. The attorney could

say, here`s how it`s going to look, here`s what the autopsy showed, here`s what the state is going to present, you know what`s on your phone, you know

what was on your Facebook. Do you want to take that chance of the contrasting consequence?

And ultimately all the attorney can do is advise. They can`t twist a client`s arm. They can`t do anything. They say this is the fact, this is

what I think will happen. And it`s up to Mr. Watts to say, he can look them still in the eye and say, I don`t care, I want to go to trial, I`m

innocent, I want to testify, I can prove I`m innocent, what have you?

It is entirely up to him. And we don`t know the kind of advice the lawyers are giving him. But I can guess they`d be looking at trying to resolve this

case short of going to trial, especially if the death penalty is on the table.

BANFIELD: So one big question for you. And I thought I knew right away what your answer was going to be because almost every case that has an

alleged confession, the lawyers start right away by trying to suppress it. Figure out a way to get that nasty little thing out of the case so that

really big ball of ugliness isn`t facing down your client through that trial.

And you disagree, you think that will be just about the worst thing that Chris Watts could do, get rid of that confession. Why?

NURMI: Well, it depends on the ultimate situation, the ultimate defence. But if he is arguing a manslaughter situation, if he is looking to show

that he wasn`t guilty of first degree murder, you say, OK, he made this admission.

It was clearly against his interest, ladies and gentlemen of the jury. Because it was true, therefore, convict him of this crime, not the other.

And think about what that would mean in terms of a defense and an outcome.

That would be one count of manslaughter and the count of wrongful termination of a pregnancy, as opposed to three counts of first degree

murder. That it would be a much different scenario. So, the confession is actually a lot more favorable than the possible outcomes that Mr. Watts can

face at trial.

BANFIELD: So fascinating. I think you are right, absolutely right. If that confession isn`t there, all you`re left with is a guy who`s going to point

a finger at some boogeyman, who then cleaned up the mess of the boogeyman. You are right. It doesn`t make sense. You kind of have to have some of

those facts that are obvious figured out.

By the way, were you a public defender for Jodi? Did you ultimately end up being a public defender for Jodi?

NURMI: Yeah, sure. I was assigned the case in 2009 when I worked as a public defender. By the time 2013 rolled around, I was on my own but the

court had ordered that I still keep the case while I am in private practice.

BANFIELD: I remember that. Thank you for that. Because some of the best attorneys in this country, I will say this, early and often, are public

defenders. Public defenders are unbelievably hardworking, unbelievably skilled. They do some of the best work in our system of jurisprudence.

But being a public defender also comes with its challenges. But what about when your defendant might have a trial that`s grabbing the attention and

the headlines all around the nation? What kind of hurdles does a defense attorney face then when it is all so unbearably public? That`s next.

[18:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Any time your client goes on video and says something like that and then the evidence totally contradicts it --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t know where my kids are. I don`t know where Shanann is.

BANFIELD (on camera): He lied to all of us. Why are we to suspect for a moment he is not going to lie to the police?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): You believed him?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We did. We feel so stupid about that now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Somebody has her. Please bring her back. I need to see everybody. I need to see everybody again.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BANFIELD: When your client lies and lies and lies and lies outwardly to everyone, oh, and has an affair with someone at work, he is understandably

hated by a lot of people watching the case. But how do you avoid being guilty by association and being hated, too, for representing him?

Kirk Nurmi joins me again. Kirk, it is no secret, but in representing Jodi Arias, you got death threats.

[18:40:05] NURMI: I did, indeed. I mean, there is fundamental misconception that defense attorneys and public defenders are there because

they believe and support their client as opposed to believing in the constitutional rights that`s afforded everyone and that motivates a lot of

anger in people with that misunderstanding.

BANFIELD: Well, I certainly hope that Kate Herold and John Walsh are not receiving any of this kind of attention. It is appalling to think that by

standing up for the United States constitution and giving everyone their god-given right to a defense, they are somehow doing something wrong.

It`s why we`re not Iraq. It`s why we are not a lot of places that can just hood you and throw you in the (INAUDIBLE). And that`s justice. It`s why we

are, I believe, better beings, because people like you do that kind of work. So hats off to you. Quick question for you. How long is this going to

take? I think some people have felt like, well, justice will be next spring. It`s not like that.

Your client, I think, murdered in `08 and was convicted in 2013. And by my math, which is limited, that`s five years. That is a long process. Do you

expect that for Chris Watts?

NURMI: Well, it`s hard to say. One of the things that I think is looming over this case like a cloud is the spectre of the death penalty. If the

state of Colorado decides to seek the death penalty against Mr. Watts, the time of this case will drag on, because then those defense attorneys will

have to investigate his life from birth, conception, really, all the way up to the day of sentencing.

So, that puts things on a different time frame. There were a lot of variables and areas that I don`t want to go into, why this took so long.

But, yes, certainly two years is not unheard of when we talk about a death penalty case, if it goes to trial.

BANFIELD: And that`s -- I think that`s quick. Two years for a death penalty. And we don`t know if it`s the death penalty yet. He still got

plenty of time down the road the D.A. to determine that.

So, I know that your modus operandi for dealing with a case like this is just head down, do the work, try to avoid the headlines, try to stay out of

the spotlight. Do you think that was at play today on that telephone call when Chris Watts simply ceded the probate control over to Shanann Watts`

dad? No opposition, no nothing. Is that a part of the strategy?

NURMI: Well that would be my assumption. If I was his criminal defense lawyer, I would advising him to do just that, to say very little, to

understand who is watching him, particularly the D.A. that is making that decision, and understand, telling Mr. Watts that even fighting this battle

is a losing effort and he`s better served keeping his mouth shut, taking his medicine as it relates to this, and focusing on his criminal case.

BANFIELD: So one of the most damaging aspects to Chris Watts` case is what he did in front of television cameras, effectively hours after his wife

went quote/unquote missing. He stood on the porch and told the world, help me, help me, help me find my missing wife and kids, only later to fully

concede he bury them. Take a look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, I don`t know where my kids are. I don`t know where Shanann is. It`s not something I could ever fathom would happen in my

lifetime, and I have no inclination of where she is.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Kirk, the prosecutor is going to put a big, old T.V. screen up in that courtroom, if there is a courtroom. They are going to play that for

the jury and they are going to say, once a liar, always a liar. He lied then, and he is lying now. How do you get over that?

NURMI: Well, that`s going to be for Mr. Watts and his attorneys to figure out. What was the explanation? Why did he do that? Was he trying to act

consistent with innocence? That sort of thing. It`s certainly going to be a prior inconsistent statement.

So they`re going to have to offer an explanation for that to the jury as to why he would do that. Was he hiding something? Was he trying to act

innocent from the manslaughter charge? What was he doing?

BANFIELD: All right. Kirk, thank you for that. If you can stand by for a moment. Shanann Watts` phone just ever present in her hand while she was

doing her Facebook lives. It was like all our phones, it was with us at all times. So it begs that question. Could the phone have been recording the

night of her death? If it was, what might that tell us? That`s next.

[18:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yay, we are drawing names. Give them kisses, say happy birthday.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): Birthday, birthday.

(LAUGHTER)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): Oh my god, I`m having way too much fun right here.

I love you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I love you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BANFIELD: Some of the best questions in this extraordinary mystery actually come from you on Facebook. To that end, Nita Ann Jeanfreau asked

this. Could it be that Chris Watts had his girlfriend over that weekend --

[18:50:00] This was when Shanann was away -- and that he freaked out about the girls telling their mom, so he killed them? Maybe he killed Shanann at

the top of the stairs where her phone was found before she saw that her kids were missing.

Art Roderick, this is a great question for you as a former assistant director of the U.S. Marshals and CNN law enforcement agent --

ART RODERICK, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST, FORMER ASSISTANT DIRECTOR, U.S. MARSHALS: Hi, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: -- analyst, rather. That does sound like it is a logical theory. And don`t police have to sort of run through theories to see if the

evidence fits?

RODERICK: They do. They have to run through every single theory. In this particular case, I mean, the key part here is we have a confession. In that

confession, he talks about how he sees his wife Shanann killing the two girls and he in a fit of rage goes up and kills her. Does that fit with a

particular scenario? It doesn`t.

But this is all part of the investigation. I mean, they made the arrest fairly quickly after the crime was committed, and then that means they had

all this time to start putting this case together.

And I believe the next hearing is coming up November 19th, so they`ve been working this case all the way through and talking to everybody, peeling

back the layers of his life to figure out who he talked to, who he was having these affairs with, what conversation was he having, what type of

electronic footprint does he have in putting all that information together to make the case for the prosecution.

BANFIELD: Art, I`m going to get you to answer this next question as well. It`s from Tim Leighty and Tim asked a good one about the phone being found

in that landing upstairs between the couch pillows. What if Shanann was recording on her phone and she ran through that area, that lofted area, and

hid the phone right before she was killed. Evidence for the police.

Does that constitute like a dying declaration? You`re always allowed to confront your accuser by our constitution, but if your accuser is dead, you

can`t confront your accuser. There`s ways around that like dying declarations. You can use them. Would that constitute that?

RODERICK: It would and video evidence from a deceased person has been used in the past in different murder cases. So, if that was the case, I mean,

she had the wherewithal, she was always on that phone making videos and recording.

So, could that be the case? If the answer is yes, law enforcement has that phone in evidence. And if she did make a recording on there, this is going

to play heavily into the prosecution of Chris Watts.

BANFIELD: So fascinating. I am still completely stumped by that phone being in the sofa pillows.

RODERICK: Right.

BANFIELD: Thank you for that, Art. Stand by for a moment. Today was such a busy day in the case of Chris Watts. He did appear before a probate judge

in the form of a conference call. And also on that call, Shanann`s father Frank, Shanann`s brother Frankie, and Shanann`s mom Sandy. The details of

the harrowing call, coming up.

[18:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: For the past 37 years, one woman on California`s remote north coast has dedicated her life to serving Americans in need, after being

tortured as a child and coming to the United States nearly penniless. This week`s CNN hero was giving back to the country that embraced her by

tackling the rampant homelessness right in her own backyard. Meet the tireless Betty Chinn.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BETTY CHINN, CNN HERO: In China, my family was a target for the government. I separated from my family and I live on the street by myself.

This all happened at a young age. I had nothing to eat. Inside my heart, I don`t want anybody to suffer what I suffered. I don`t sleep a lot. I get up

at 2:07, not 2:08, not 2:06. I tell myself time to go, somebody needs your help.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: For the full story, go to CNNHeroes.com. And I encourage you to do it. You can see a lot of our heroes there, read their stories, and

ultimately you will end up voting for who should be the number one CNN hero. It`s our favorite initiative. It`s great to give back.

The next hour of "Crime & Justice" starts right now.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): Another bombshell tonight.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Keep the prayers coming for our family.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): The phone call no parent can prepare for.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): You will always be daddy`s little girl.

BANFIELD (voice over): With her daughters and granddaughters accused killer on the other end of the line.

[19:00:05] UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): You have to be sensitive towards the family because they have lost their daughter and they are

devastated.

BANFIELD: Did Chris Watts speak to his in laws for the first time since police say he killed his family.

CHRIS WATTS, SUSPECTED MURDERER: We had an emotional conversation. I will leave it at that.

BANFIELD: What could he possibly have to say to them from behind bars?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s not doing well at all.

BANFIELD: As they handle what`s left of Shanann`s life. Shanann`s father moving what appeared to be a mirror.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I guess, you know, really kind of broke my heart than make it even more real.

BANFIELD: How could Chris defend himself now?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What you want to do is make sure he doesn`t say anything that could be used against him.

BANFIELD: Will his lawyers try to get the alleged confession thrown out?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As Chris allegedly told police, a father that flew into a rage when he saw his wife strangling their daughters.

BANFIELD: The man who represented one of the most hated killers in the country.

JODI ANN ARIAS, CONVICTED MURDERER: This is the worst mistake of my life.

BANFIELD: Will help us hash out what could be a dark denial.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Good evening, everyone. I am Ashleigh Banfield. This is Crime and Justice. And tonight, the darkest developments since Chris Watts was

put in handcuffs, accused of killing his wife and daughters, dumping their bodies at his work site, then telling everyone they were missing. The

formerly heroic family men spent seven weeks in jail, solitary, all alone, 23 hours a day.

Today, Chris Watts got to venture out to the phone banks because today Chris Watts had a very important call. And on the other end of that call,

the brother and the parents of the dead pregnant wife Chris Watts allegedly confessed to strangling. The uncle and the grandparents of the dead little

girls` police say he submerged in the oil tanks. No doubt that uncle and those grandparents had some choice words for their inmate of an in law.

But today, the conversation may have been limited because they had something specific to sort out. They had something urgent. Joining me

live, Crime and Justice Producer Kyle Peltz. the notion that this family after all they have gone through, trying to deal with the reality of losing

their daughter, their granddaughters, burying them in North Carolina, found themselves on a phone call, the first confrontation with Chris Watts since

they lost Shanann.

KYLE PELTZ, CRIME AND JUSTICE PRODUCER: That was the big question, we knew they had a phone call scheduled. Would Chris Watts himself be on the

call? He dialed in from Weld County Jail with his attorney sitting right beside him.

BANFIELD: So he has two attorneys for his murder case and the D.A. has been very clear to us hey this probate issue that has been launched by

Shanann`s family, this is not part of the criminal case. This is not part of the D.A.`s office. This is a civil matter, separate from us. And yet

both those attorneys and the D.A. himself were involved in the phone call. How were they all placed, who was where and why?

PELTZ: I`m sorry. You said that the D.A for a long time has been saying hey this is a civil case not a criminal. We have nothing to do with that.

But the prosecutor himself was actually in court today.

BANFIELD: Michael Rourke.

PELTZ: Michael Rourke.

BANFIELD: In court.

PELTZ: In court, although it seems he was there as a visitor. He was in the court room gallery as was another of Chris Watts` Defense Attorneys,

John Walsh.

BANFIELD: John Walsh.

PELTZ: Yes.

BANFIELD: So John Walsh and his other defense attorney for criminal case, Kate Herald, of course they`re involved in defending him against the murder

charges. The nine felonies he is faced with. But Kate Herald was somehow in jail, seated beside Chris Watts on this phone call with the family and

his other attorney, and the big cheese himself Michael Rourke was sitting in the gallery in the courtroom presumably on speaker phone with the judge.

PELTZ: Exactly. Kate Herald was right there with Chris. And as you said, she`s the one tasked with defending him in this murder case and one

of his attorneys in the courtroom.

BANFIELD: So he gets on the phone. And on the other end, invited to be part of this call, critically is Shanann`s father. That`s Frank Rzucek.

You can see that on the list of people involved. Critically, Frank Rzucek the father of the murdered pregnant wife of Chris Watts is on the phone

call. He is the one petitioning to say I want to be Shanann`s` personal representative in all affairs of the estate.

I want to be that person, that point person. Sandy Rzucek, his wife, Shanann`s` mom also invited to be on the call. Frankie Rzucek, Shanann`s

brother and, you know, by all accounts best friend on the call as well. And then you can see all of the lawyers that we just talked about. Do we

know if that family, if Frank Sr. or Sandy or Frank Jr. who has known to be very outspoken about what he thinks of Chris Watts on Facebook? Do we know

if they spoke to him?

PELTZ: We have no idea who spoke on the call and a big question, too, is did Chris even utter a word or were his attorneys talking for him. We

don`t know. But it`s pretty -- it had to have been pretty chilling and very uncomfortable for the family if Chris Watts was speaking.

BANFIELD: And they knew. They were privy to know who was on the call. So when they were dialing in, they were allowed to know that he just might be

there. He might be standing by. They might hear his voice and who knows like you said, the information is limited. We know this is scheduled to be

one full hour, this emergency probate hearing, one full hour. What was it actually?

PELTZ: It was -- I have the exact time. 10 minutes and 40 seconds how long this hearing lasted.

BANFIELD: What they`d ask? I mean what do they ask in ten minutes and 40 seconds. And what was asked and answered?

PELTZ: Well exactly. Normally - I mean 10 minutes and 40 seconds would yield pages and pages of transcripts of what happened. I will hold it for

the camera. This is the page we got today, half page of notes on what happened in court. No specifics other than who was on the call and the

final outcome of the request

BANFIELD: I am assuming though since this was a request by the family of Shanann`s to, you know, to take over the representation of the estate, the

judge would have to ask do you oppose this at the least. Maybe we don`t have it in prose, that exact sentence, but do we know if there was an

answer to the question?

PELTZ: There was an answer. It said no one opposed and Chris Watts did not oppose.

BANFIELD: But we don`t know if he spoke those words or if his representative spoke the words for him.

PELTZ: Right. That`s not clear.

BANFIELD: It`s bizarre though if he wanted to be on the call, his lawyer could have been on the call from her office.

PELTZ: Exactly.

BANFIELD: He wanted to be on the call, arrangements had to be made with Weld County Jail to get him out of that cell where he sits rotting 23 hours

a day except for that hour he gets out in the hour out room. Why would he want to be on it if he wasn`t going to speak.

PELTZ: Exactly.

BANFIELD: So what else do we know about the estate issues because it seemed this was pressing. This was something called an emergency hearing

which needed to be done right away. What was the rush?

PELTZ: Well we know Shanann`s father mentioned life insurance as one of the reasons and her car.

BANFIELD: So and that`s interesting because it her car and there`s his car. And they both on Facebook had, you know, uttered that it belonged to

Shanann at some point. I think Shanann had mentioned as well it is my truck actually. So now do we know what car, was it the Lexus or was it the

truck towed off for evidence?

PELTZ: Right. We`re thinking it was probably her Lexus that she recently got. But as you mention, they also had Chris` truck. But by Chris` own

allege admission to police that`s the truck he used to cart their bodies to the final burial site.

BANFIELD: You know I think lot of times when we discuss this truck and you just seen the pictures of it being taken away on a flatbed into evidence,

that if you read the fine, you know, in between the words and the arrest affidavit, they say that those bodies -- I had assumed they were in the bed

in the back of the truck. They were actually in the back seat that all three bodies were in the back seat of that truck.

It`s so sad to see this happening, you know, in the darkness of night, I presume it was the Wednesday night they pulled him in, charged him with

murder and then just hauled away that truck as evidence. That those bodies were in the back seat. And we don`t know how long that truck will be held

as evidence, do we?

PELTZ: No, we don`t know.

BANFIELD: By the way, I saw an 1139 on the back window. And Maybe I didn`t notice it before. But it looks to be a fleet number. There`s an

1139, the number 1139 in the back window at the driver`s side. And you`ll probably see it in a moment, that image will flash in a moment. But that

makes me wonder if this didn`t belong to them at all.

PELTZ: Right.

BANFIELD: That this actually belonged to Anadarko. They kept calling it Chris` work truck. Even the -- a police called it Chris` work truck. And

we wonder what does it mean? Does it belong -- there it is 1139 right there.

PELTZ: Right.

BANFIELD: And if that`s your personal truck, would you have a number, a four digit number on the window?

PELTZ: That`s a good question. We`ve been asking who this truck belonged to pretty much since the beginning of the case. I`ve not got a clear

answer on it. But it may very well have been Anadarko`s truck or it could have bee Chris and Shanann`s.

BANFIELD: I worked for plenty of companies that have a fleet. Camera men all have a van or vehicle and there`s often a number. I think any of us out

there, if you work for a company that has company vehicles, typically there`s a number. I`m just noticing this live as were speaking for the

first time. But I can only presume, Kyle, that maybe it doesn`t pertain to the truck. Maybe this hearing where they say there`s a car and life

insurance pertains to the Lexus. And she had talked about the Lexus. She talked openly about how proud she was of that Lexus on her Facebook.

PELTZ: Right. And she was getting money from her company to make the car payments because of I guess a level that she was there. But yes, she was

very proud of that vehicle.

BANFIELD: You know I want to bring Kirk Nurmi. Kirk is a Defense Attorney

PELTZ: Right. And she was getting money from her company to make the car payments because I guess a level she achieved there. But yes, she was very

proud of that vehicle.

BANFIELD: You know I want to bring in Kirk Nurmi. Kirk is a defense attorney. He`s also the former attorney for Jodie Arias. That`s why

Kirk`s name is often very familiar to us. Kirk, thank you for being with us today.

I`m going to talk to you a lot about preparing the ultimate defense for a guy like this who seems to be pretty hated for the fact pattern we know of

or at least that the police allege he has, you know, confessed to. But right now, I want you to tell me about this probate hearing. We never

cover these things. Probate is boring. It just goes under the radar.

But this is different. They`re on the phone with the man accused of killing their daughter and grandchildren and the brother listening to his

in law possibly speaking. Can you help shed light on what the call might have been like and fill in lines they didn`t write on the document Kyle

just showed?

KIRK NURMI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Ashleigh, it`s great to be with you. I think in terms of that document obviously I think there were a lot of

things left out of the document, probably a lot of things left unsaid by both parties that wanting to be said. But I`m sure his defense attorneys

were there to be sure that things didn`t go off the rail, that emotions didn`t get the better of him and that he didn`t sabotage his criminal case

in some way by saying something out of emotion.

BANFIELD: And would you also assume, Kirk that it is not strange that we saw in black and white that the D.A. himself attended the hearing, sat in

the gallery, that his other criminal defense attorney, his other public defender who seems to be lead chair at least at this point John Walsh was

also seated in the gallery while Chris` second defense attorney was in the jail with him. Does that seem strange or were they all just waiting for

any utterance of any kind?

NURMI: I think they were waiting for any utterance of any kind. But keep in mind too Ashleigh Mr. Watts is really under a microscope right now

because it`s the D.A. that is going to decide whether or not he wants to charge Mr. Watts with Death. He wants to seek the death penalty. So he is

going to go in, any opportunity he has, to go in and evaluate Mr. Watts, his demeanor, how he acts in order to make that evaluation, to decide do I

want to charge this man with death.

BANFIELD: So let me ask you this. And again, probate is typically so Proforma. It`s just, you know, it`s boiler plate. And one of those boiler

plate questions really turned out to be not very boiler plate at all. It turned out to be very, very sad. That question was does the decedent

Shanann have any surviving children or descendants. And they had to check the box no. Kirk, do you have any idea whether they would have read in, you

know, open court over the phone line so Chris would have to digest that moment?

NURMI: I really don`t know. I haven`t done probate myself but my guess would be that that would be part of the record in terms of the formalities

made in court, to lay down that record to make sure the record was full and complete.

BANFIELD: Kirk, stand by for a moment. I want to bring in Bonnie Bowles because you mentioned it, probate is unique. And Bonnie happens to be an

estate and probate attorney and in Colorado, too. So you know a thing or two about this. You`re not only that. You`re a personal family attorney

and Family Wealth Planning Institute.

So Bonnie, tell me about this like normally boring, perfunctory kind of hearing. It was scheduled for an hour. It ended up being 10 minutes.

Does all that sound normal or did something go off?

BONNIE BOWLES, PROBATE ATTORNEY: Hi, Ashleigh. It`s great to be with you. I would consider a 10 minute hearing probably normal for what they were

discussing today. The petition that Frank Sr. filed is for both to have him appointed as personal representative which was what discussed today, as

well as determine Shanann`s heirs, and that from what I can tell especially the fact that the hearing was only 10 minutes was not discussed today. So

I don`t know that was discussed today. So I don`t know the question of did she leave surviving children would have been asked in open court. But I

anticipate there`s going to be a future hearing to determine who her heirs are.

BANFIELD: That`s what becomes so fascinating here because typically if your entire family is wiped out that surviving family member or spouse

would be the beneficiary, and listen it doesn`t matter what you think, she didn`t leave a will. And so the state kicks in. given that Bonnie if

Shanann didn`t leave a will, does that mean instantly the state says the surviving spouse gets everything?

BOWLES: Well, that is what the probate code says however, there`s another statute, the slayer statute that does clarify listen if you`re inheriting

from an estate but you`re the one who caused the fact that the inheritance is even happening then you don`t get to financially profit from the estate

any more. So even though Chris in normal circumstances would be considered sole heir of Shanann`s estate, if the statute kicks in, which would be the

case if he is found to be convicted then that means he is treated as if he predeceased her. And then the statute said if she received surviving

children, they`re now the heirs. Now we know that`s not the case so then it goes to her parents in equal shares.

BANFIELD: Yes. And would they have to actually start the statute? Would they have to take any kind of action to get that Slayer Statute into play

or does it automatically happen?

BOWLES: So it would need to be alleged in a motion to have the judge determine what`s called her intestate heirs and intestate means pass a way

without a will. So we`re looking at Colorado Statute.

BANFIELD: So they need a lawyer. They need a lawyer. They need somebody to advise them as to how to sort of get that ball rolling. One quick

question and I just got this Bonnie so it`s really interesting. It`s the quit claim deed on their house. That house on Saratoga Trail that you`ve

been seeing on the pictures.

It`s a beautiful home outside and inside. It is fairly new, just a few years old. It is in a brand new development. And it was worth upwards of i

think $400,000. That`s a lot of money. It says the deed is made between Christopher Lee Watts and County of Weld and State of Colorado, grantors

and Christopher Lee Watson and Shanann Watts as joint tenants. That effective means they own the house together, correct?

BOWLES: Correct. He essentially gifted his half to her when he signed that deed.

BANDIELD: So he - well help me out there. He gifted his half to her, meaning she owns the house by the deed?

BOWLES: No, she -- he gifted half, I`m sorry, half of what he owned in that house to her, yes. Yes.

BANFIELD: So we`re at the same spot here where it is half and half, and one half is deceased, and now we need to decide, the state needs to decide

if the other half caused that death and therefore is not privy to the benefits of Shanann. And if that`s the case, then you would need a

conviction, right? You would have to wait through the process through a conviction, correct?

BOWLES: Yes. That`s what the statute says. It uses the word convicted. Now what`s very, very interesting about the deed is that it says they`re

joint tenants. Now again under normal circumstances what that word would mean or that phrase, joint tenants, is that Chris would inherit Shanann`s

half automatically without the probate court involved whatsoever if she passed away before him. Now because we are in a situation where

potentially he was the cause of the fact that he would be receiving her half pursuant to the phrase joint tenants, now a question is raised as to

whether he can actually receive that by way of that phrase on the deed.

And so I`ve dealt with a probate case here in Denver where it was a similar scenario, wife killed husband or was accused of killing him. They owned

the home as joint tenants. When her family went to sell the home to support their minor children financially, the title company refused to move forward

until that half was clarified in probate court.

BANFIELD: It is all so dry until you realize what the stakes are here because there are plenty of people very angry about the notion that a man

facing this heinous a crime could inherit everything. It is fascinating to hear how you put it and how probate lists out in the fight that has to

ensue. Hold the thought Bonnie if you will because there`s a lot of noise now about whether the police have enough evidence to be able to convict

him.

How can anybody possibly know? We are seven weeks into what could be a year`s long case. And not only that, what about the alleged confession. Is

there any way that can be tossed out? Those questions next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Three counts of murder in the first degree. One count naming Shanann Watts, one count naming Bella, one count naming Celeste.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Chris Watts is alone 23 hours a day.

CHRIS WATTS: I need to see everybody again. This house is not complete without anybody here.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He never once cried.

CHRIS WATTS: I look at my little girl asleep. I don`t know how anybody can do that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: There are two sides to this story. One side explains why Chris Watts is in jail facing five counts of first degree murder with police

saying he killed his whole family. And his news stories rise to the surface like the stories about Chris` alleged affairs. That side of the

story starts sounding worse and worse for him. But the other side of the story is the one police allegedly heard from Chris, himself, when they

brought him in for questioning.

Not Chris Watts the killer but Chris Watts the caring dad, who says he witnessed a nightmare. His own wife strangling their beautiful daughters

and was forced to do something about it, himself. The police just did not buy that for a moment. And that`s why he`s sitting in the courtroom in

orange in this picture. And if he ends up in a courtroom at the end of this process for a trial a jury may not buy that story either.

But all of it could come down to just one juror. One, thinking maybe, maybe, maybe his story is possible.

Joining me now defense attorney and the man who was tasked with defending Jodie Arias, Kirk Nurmi. He wrote a book about the experience that just

about sums it up. Trapped with Ms. Arias. Kirk, thanks.

I wanted to ask you what it is like when you are tasked with defending someone who is not likable. Jodie was not likable. You said it yourself, 9

days out of 10 you didn`t like Jodie Arias. Those were your words, this man is unlikable because he got up in front of television cameras the day

after the deaths and told everyone that his family was missing. Only days later he would say he buried them.

So what is it like with being tasked with defending someone everyone hates?

NURMI: Well, as you say, though, it`s not a matter of liking him. How you feel about him personally doesn`t factor into it. I used the analogy of a

surgeon doing a surgery on someone that comes into the ER. You don`t assess their background or whether you like them when you do it.

You go to work. You focus on their legal interests. And that`s what you are there to protect as best as you can. So the animosity outside of the

courtroom is something you do your best to ignore.

BANFIELD: I know that you are not privy to the discovery against Chris Watts, hell the defenders of Chris Watts just got I think some of it the

other day. So there is a lot we don`t know in case. So it`s a little difficult for me to be an armchair quarterback. But with what you know, do

you have any idea how you would tackle this I think fair to say uphill battle?

NURMI: Well obviously, like you said, there`s factors we don`t know regarding the autopsy, text messages, things found on their phone. But

given that Colorado does have the death penalty and given the behavior involved in this case, we are talking about a man possibly killing his two

children, I would be looking at trying plea this out before it made its way to a courtroom, trying to make sure that the death penalty was off the

table, and justice was served and working with that county attorney to try to resolve things in that manner.

BANFIELD: So you are way better at this than I am. I`m just on TV and you actually have a law degree. But I have to beg to differ on this because it

looks to me, with this fact pattern that he allegedly, if you believe the police version of the affidavit, he confessed to them and he gave them his

fact pattern. That he witnessed his wife strangling two kids.

He jumped in a rage and killed her. If you can get one juror to believe that, then I think as I`ve heard it, you can get that intent reduced to

recklessness or criminal negligence, because he was in defense of others. Now, that changes the entire ballgame here. That doesn`t mean you will

just spend life in prison. That actually means you could get out with just manslaughter and maybe just 10 years. Am I wrong?

KIRK: Well, you`re not wrong. But your thinking from Watts` perspective would be a bit wishful. When you go in front of a jury you have the fact

pattern that you have, the reasonable doubt that you have is lesser, is decreased. We`re talking about a dad killing his own children.

So he`s already going to be looked at with rightfully skeptical eyes. We also already have inconsistent stories here. So, yes, the jury would have

to believe it, but it depends on what the contradiction, what could be lost if you go to trial.

Could it be his entire life or could it in fact be lethal injection? That`s the calculus that has to be done because I think the likelihood of

this being proven, his story being proven, the manslaughter story is probably pretty unlikely.

BANFIELD: Well, I would agree with you, except for, I feel like I`m a reasonable person. I feel like I`d be a good juror because I`m reasonable.

And I know the definition of reasonable doubt. But I`ve also covered cases where I could not believe the level of rationality where it came to

determining that doubt.

I`m talking about Casey Anthony. That one to me looked like a lay-up. I`m talking about O.J. that looked like a lay-up, too. And I could sit here

for next two hours and list out cases that look like lay-ups. And yet one juror -- one juror thought, I don`t know, maybe, could be, and that`s why I

say, if you are stubborn, if you are pig headed about it couldn`t have Chris Watts look right back at his attorneys and say, I`m going for it.

KIRK NURMI, FORMER ATTORNEY FOR JODI ARIAS: You bet. I mean, ultimately, the only thing the attorney can do is advise him. The attorney could say,

here`s how it`s going to look, here`s what the autopsies shows, here`s what the state is going to present. You know what`s on your phone, you know

what was on your Facebook. Do you want to take that chance of the contrasting consequence? And ultimately, all the attorney can do is

advice. They can`t twist a client`s arm, they can`t do anything. They say this is the fact, this is what I think it`s going to happen. And it`s up

to Mr. Watts to say, he can look them still in the eye and say, I don`t care, I want to go to trial. I`m innocent. I want to testify. I can

prove I`m innocent, what have you. It is entirely up to him. And we don`t know the kind of advice the lawyers are giving him. But I can guess they`d

be looking at trying to resolve this case, short of going to trial, especially if the death penalty is on the table.

BANFIELD: So, one big question for you. And I thought I knew right away what your answer was going to be because almost every case that has a

confession, alleged confession, the lawyers start right away by trying to suppress it. Figure out a way to get that nasty little thing out of the

case so that really big ball of ugliness isn`t facing down your client through that trial. And you disagree, you think that will be just about

the worst thing that Chris Watts could do, get rid of that confession. Why?

NURMI: Well, it depends -- it depends on the ultimate situation, the ultimate defense. But if he is arguing a manslaughter situation, if he`s

looking to show that he wasn`t guilty of first-degree murder, you say, OK, he made this admission that was clearly against his interest, ladies and

gentlemen of the jury, because it was true, therefore convict him of this crime, not the other. And think about what that would mean in terms of a

defense and an outcome. That would be one count of manslaughter and the count of wrongful termination of a pregnancy, as opposed to three counts of

first-degree murder. That would be a much different scenario. So, the confession is actually a lot more favorable than the possible outcomes if

Mr. Watts could face at trial.

BANFIELD: So fascinating. I think you`re right, absolutely right. If that confession isn`t there, all you`re left with is a guy who`s going to

point a finger at some boogeyman, who then cleaned up the mess of the boogeyman. You`re right, it doesn`t make sense. You kind of have to have

some of those facts that are obvious figured out. By the way, were you a public defender for Jodi? Did you ultimately end up being a public

defender for Jodi? I`m trying to think of all those --

NURMI: Well, I went -- yes, sure. I was assigned the case in 2009 when I worked as a public defender but -- and by the time 2013 rolled around, I

was on my own, but the court had ordered that I still keep the case while I was in private practice.

BANFIELD: I remember that. Thank you for that. Because some of the best attorneys in this country, I will say this, early and often, are public

defenders. Public defenders are unbelievably hardworking, unbelievably skilled, they do some of the best work in our system of jurisprudence. But

being a public defender also comes with its challenges. But what about when your defendant might have a trial that`s grabbing the attention and

the headlines all around the nation. What kind of hurdles does a defense attorney face then when it is all so unbearably public? That`s next.

[19:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Any time your client goes on video and says something like that and then the evidence totally contradicts it.

CHRIS WATTS, MURDER SUSPECT: I don`t know where my kids are. I don`t know where Shanann is.

BANFIELD: He lied to all of us. Why are we to suspect for a moment he`s not going to lie to the police?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You believed him?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We did. And we feel so stupid about that now.

C. WATTS: If somebody has her, just please bring her back. I need to see everybody. I need to see everybody again.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: When your client lies and lies and lies and lies, outwardly to everyone -- oh, and has an affair with someone at work, he is

understandably hated by a lot of people watching the case. But how do you avoid being guilty by association and being hated, too, for representing

him? Kirk Nurmi joins me again. Kirk, it is no secret, but in representing Jodi Arias, you got death threats.

NURMI: I did, indeed. I mean, there is a fundamental misconception that defense attorneys and public defenders are there because they believe and

support their client as opposed to believing in the constitutional rights that`s afforded everyone, and that motivates a lot of anger in people with

that misunderstanding.

[19:40:00] BANFIELD: Well, I certainly hope that Kate Herold and John Walsh are not receiving any of this kind of attention. It is appalling to

think that by standing up for the United States constitution and giving everyone their God given right to a defense, they`re somehow doing

something wrong. It`s why we`re not Iraq. It`s why we`re not a lot of places that can just hood you and throw you in the Gulag, and that`s

justice. It`s why we are, I believe, better beings, because people like you do that kind of work. So, hats off to you. Quick question for you,

how long is this going to take? I think some people have felt like, well, justice will be, you know, next spring. It`s not like that. Your client,

I think, murdered in `08 and was convicted in 2013, and by my math, which is limited, that`s five years. That is a long process. Do you expect that

for Chris Watts?

NURMI: Well, it`s hard to say. But one of the things I think that`s looming over this case like a cloud is the spectre of the death penalty.

If the State of Colorado decides to seek the death penalty against Mr. Watts, the time of this case will drag on, because they -- then those

defense attorneys will have to investigate his life from birth, conception, really, all the way up to the day of sentencing. So, that puts things on a

different timeframe. There are a lot of variables and areas that I don`t want to go into why this took so long. But, yes, certainly, two years is

not unheard of when we talk about a death penalty case. If it goes to trial.

BANFIELD: Yes. And that`s -- I think that`s quick. Two years for a death penalty. And we don`t know if it`s the death penalty yet. He`s still got

plenty of time down the road the D.A. to determine that. So, I know that your modus operandi for dealing with a case like this is just head down, do

the work, try to avoid the headlines, try to stay out of the spotlight. Do you think that was at play today on that telephone call when Chris Watts

simply ceded the probate control over to Shanann Watts` dad, no opposition, no nothing? Is that a part of the strategy?

NURMI: Well, that would be my assumption if I was his criminal defense lawyer, I would be advising him to do just that, to say very little, to

understand who`s watching him, particularly the D.A. that`s making that decision, and understand, telling Mr. Watts that even fighting this battle

is a losing effort, and he is better served keeping his mouth shut (AUDIO GAP) relates to this and focusing on his criminal case.

BANFIELD: So, one of the most damaging aspects to Chris Watts` case is what he did in front of television cameras effectively the hours after his

wife went "missing." He stood on the porch and told the world help me, help me, help me find my missing wife and kids, only later to fully concede

he buried them. Take a look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

C. WATTS: I don`t know, I don`t know where my kids are, I don`t know where Shanann is. It`s not something I could ever, ever fathom what happened in

my lifetime, and I have no inclination of where she is.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Kirk, the prosecutors are going to put a big ol` T.V. screen up in that courtroom, if there is a courtroom, they`re going to play that for

the jury and they`re going to say once a liar, always a liar. He lied then, and he`s lying now. How do you get over that?

NURMI: Well, that`s going to be for Mr. Watts and his attorneys to figure out, what was the explanation, why did he do that? Was he trying to act

consistent with innocence? That sort of thing. It`s certainly going to be a prior inconsistent statement, so they`re going to have to offer

explanation for that to the jury as to why he would do that. What was he - - was he hiding something, was he trying to act innocent from a manslaughter charge? What was he doing?

BANFIELD: All right, Kirk, thank you for that. If you could stand by a moment, Shanann Watts` phone just ever present in her hand while she was

doing her Facebook lives. It was like all our phones, it was just with us at all times. So, it begs that question, could the phone have been

recording the night of her death, and if it was, what might that tell us? That`s next.

[19:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHANANN WATTS, MURDER VICTIM: I love them. And I love the fact that I can be there for them.

CROWD: Happy birthday to you! Yay!

S. WATTS: Yay! We`re drawing names for yesterday.

Give him kisses, say happy birthday.

C. WATTS: Birthday birthday.

(LAUGHTER)

S. WATTS: Oh my God, I`m having way too much fun right here. I love you (INAUDIBLE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[19:49:54] BANFIELD: Some of the best questions in this extraordinary mystery actually come from you on Facebook, and to that end, Nita Ann

Jeanfreau asked this, "Could it be that Chris Watts had his girlfriend over that weekend?" this was when Shanann was away, "and that he freaked out

about the girls telling their mom, so he killed them? Maybe he killed Shanann at the top of the stairs, where her phone was -- where he phone was

found before she saw that her kids were missing. Art Roderick, this is a great question for you, as a former assistant director of the U.S. marshals

and a CNN Law Enforcement agent -- I mean, analyst, rather. That does sound like it`s a logical theory, and don`t police have to sort of run

through theories to see if the evidence fits?

ART RODERICK, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: They do, they have to run through every single theory, and in this particular case, I mean, the key

part here is we have a confession. And in that confession, he talks about how he sees his wife Shanann killing the two girls and then he, in a fit of

rage, goes up and kills her. Does that fit with a particular scenario? It doesn`t. But this is all part of the investigation. I mean, they made the

arrest fairly quickly after the crime was committed, and then that means they had all this time to start putting this case together, and I believe

the next hearing is coming up, November 19th. So, they`ve been working this case all the way through and talking to everybody in peeling back the

layers of his life to figure out who he talked to, who he was having these affairs with, what conversations was he having? What type of electronic

footprint does he have? And putting all that information together to make the case for the prosecution.

BANFIELD: So, Art, I`m going to get you to answer this next question as well. It`s from Tim Lahey. And Tim asked us a good one about the phone

being found in that landing upstairs between the couch pillows. "What if Shanann was recording through her phone and she ran through that area, that

lofted area, and hid the phone right before she was killed. Evidence for the police." What does that -- does that constitute like a dying

declaration? Because you`re always allowed to confront your accuser by our constitution, but if your accuser is dead, you can`t confront your accuser,

but there`s ways around that, like dying declaration, you can -- you can use them. Does this -- would that constitute that?

RODERICK: It would. It would, and video evidence from a deceased person has been used in the past in different murder cases. So, if that was the

case and I mean, she had the where with all, she was always on that phone making videos and recording. So, could that be the case? If that -- if

the answer is yes, then law enforcement has that phone and evidence, and if she did make a recording on there, this is going to plea -- this is going

to play heavily into the prosecution of Chris Watts.

BANFIELD: So fascinating. I am still completely stumped by that phone being in the, you know, sofa pillows. Thank you for that, Art. Stand by

for a moment. There -- you know, today was such a busy day in the case of Chris Watts. He did appear before a probate judge in the form of a

conference call. And also, on that call, Shanann`s father, Frank, Shanann`s brother, Frankie, and Shanann`s mom, Sandy. The details of that

harrowing call, coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: For the past 37 years, one woman in California`s remote north coast has dedicated her life to serving Americans in need. After being

tortured as a child and coming to the U.S. nearly penniless. This week`s CNN Hero is giving back to the country that embraced her, by tackling the

rampant homelessness in her own backyard. Meet the tireless Betty Chinn.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BETTY CHINN, CNN HERO: In China, my family is a target for the government. I separate my family and I leave on the street by myself. This all

happened very young age. I had nothing to eat. Inside my heart, I don`t want anybody suffer what I suffer. I don`t sleep a lot. I get up at 2:07,

not the 2:08, not 2:06. I tell myself time to go, somebody need your help.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: For the full story on Betty, go to ccnnheroes.com. And we`ll see you right back here Monday night, 6:00 Eastern. You can listen to our

show anytime. Download our podcast on Apple Podcast, iHeart Radio, Stitcher, TuneIn, or wherever you get your pod casts for your CRIME &

JUSTICE fix. Thanks so much for watching, everyone. "FORENSIC FILES" begins right now.

END