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Crime and Justice With Ashleigh Banfield
Hubby Kills Wife And Kids, Dumps Bodies; Shocking Items In Accused Killer Dad`s Cell; Dad`s Lawyers Blasts Prosecutors Over Leaks; New Fight Brewing Over Autopsy Reports. Aired 6-8p ET
Aired October 09, 2018 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(JOINED IN PROGRESS)
[18:00:00] HILL HARPER, HOW IT REALLY HAPPENED SHOW HOST: -- on how it really happened. I`m Hill Harper. Thanks for watching.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Disturbing new reports tonight, straight out of Chris Watts` jail cell.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He is not doing well at all.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He is apparently looking at a photo of the family he is accused of killing.
SHANANN WATTS, VICTIM, WIFE OF CHRIS WATTS: Oh, my goodness.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What Chris is reportedly thinking while staring at those now lifeless little faces?
BELLA WATTS, DAUGHTER OF CHRIS AND SHANANN WATTS: Hi.
S. WATTS: Hi. You guys are so cute.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And what he is supposedly reading while sitting in that cell.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Depression is setting in.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: While investigators seem to be scrutinizing, something he left in the house.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s plenty of evidence that was found on everything from bedding to clothes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Could some left behind bed sheets be the clue as to who killed those children?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Whatever they have already, they`re going to run that sample against it, and see if it comes back to Chris Watts.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Plus the autopsies are over.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We do have Chris Watts saying that he did strangle Shanann. It is possible that the little girls were strangled as well.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But the results have been kept a secret.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And there`s still more questions than answers.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So while Chris Watts stares at their pictures. Does he mind if their autopsies go public? You might be surprised of the
answer.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s a chess game now between prosecution and defense.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: Good evening, everyone. I`m Ashleigh Banfield and this is Crime and Justice. Tonight an alarming new detail from that lonely Colorado jail
cell that Chris Watts has been calling home. As the defense team spars with prosecutors over those pesky autopsy results that may or may not be
released to the public. And may or may not tell us who actually the killer of those children.
Apparently Chris`s lawyers don`t care if any potential jurors learn the dark details of his wife and daughter`s deaths, because they`re saying
someone already tainted the jury pool by leaking information from the investigation. So it could be a matter of time before we find out how the
Watts girls died. Something Chris Watts is apparently thinking about from his cell at the Weld County Jail.
And we know this, because according to a source that people magazine is quoting. He now has a little decoration in an otherwise barren chamber. A
single photograph of the wife and kids he is accused of killing. Of course, Chris Watts says he only killed Shanann. He says when he caught
her strangling their daughters, but at this point only he, god really know the truth. He is had plenty of time to talk with god behind bars. With
the same source telling people magazine, he is been busy reading his bible. The only other personal item in that cell with him.
Joining me now, crime journalist, Pat Lalama who has been covering this case. And I have to say, it`s a little astounding Pat to learn that he may
just have a photo of Shanann and the children in that cell, as well as a bible, given the fact that the close watch protocol he was on, dictates
nothing at all should be in that cell. No reading material, no paper goods, just bare essentials. That this is what people magazine is
reporting he does have.
PAT LALAMA, GUEST HOST, HLN CRIME AND JUSTICE: Here`s the question Ashleigh.
Is it for optics purposes? I don`t want to sounds, you know, be grudging of him. But is it for show? Did his defense attorney, his public
defenders say it might look good if you look like you were very sorrowful over the family, that you no longer have? Or is he a man deep in his own
personal guilt, drowning in his own personal guilt, and remembering the family that he once had? And so we don`t know. We just don`t know what a
man who is capable of killing his wife and admits he did it, we don`t know what he is thinking.
BANFIELD: I think it`s a great point you bring up. Are we jaded? Wondering if this is actually genuine? Or even true for that matter, I`ll
be honest. The close watch protocol is described to me by my source at that jail. Which was an impeccable source, no reading materials at all.
Unless that one hour he gets out in the hour out room where the newspapers are located, that is where he gets to read. But otherwise, only the bare
essentials. That may have changed. They are so tight lipped, and I`m going to be honest with you, they have a public information officer in the
Weld County Jail who has never once returned a call.
LALAMA: Right.
BANFIELD: A publicly paid employee whose job it is to inform the public. Public information officer, who does not ever return a phone call? So,
it`s a little astounding, even to say you`re reporting is right or wrong, or no comment. Either one, but we`re not getting any of that. I have this
question for you, because when I heard that this was possible that there might be a photo of that family in his cell, low and behold, you know, you
go back to the analysis of all the things we`ve covered, Pat and we`ve seen this before. Remember Lacy Peterson`s picture was apparently in Scott
Peterson`s cell?
[18:05:07] LALAMA: Absolutely. And it`s astonishing to think again, you know, -- I am jaded. I`m going to be honest with you. I`m thinking, maybe
on the side I shouldn`t think as a journalist, but we don`t know for a fact that that picture is in Chris Watts` cell. But I`m just a little bit
curious about the timing, just a little curious about the fact that the information came out. And, you know, oh, geez, Chris suddenly having these
pangs of horrific guilt for what happened.
BANFIELD: I`m going to bring Rene Sandler into this, because as a defense attorney she might have some insights as to whether there is strategy
behind this. Scott Peterson, Rene was not the only person that came to mind. O.J. Simpson came to mind. Because we spoke to someone who had
intimate knowledge of O.J.`s life in Nevada. That guard said he had a picture of Nicole. And that he could see her every morning when he woke
up. That is the image he looked at every morning in his cell.
You know, just before he was released. That isn`t long ago. Those words were you know, 20 years ago. So is it a strategy. Is it something to
create a sympathetic image for defense attorney to suggest that the defendant better have that victim? That image at his cell?
RENE SANDLER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: There could be a totally innocent explanation here. As a defense attorney, I`m in communication with jail
authorities all the time, and there are things that happen that the public doesn`t know about, I can get permission for something to come inside a
jail cell. So for an attorney to ask for a picture to come inside a client`s cell, is not unusual at all. And it doesn`t mean anything
nefarious, it could be a completely innocent explanation.
BANFIELD: And them one other just protocol question for you, because my team and I were debating the possibilities of an exceptions to the rule in
a close watch protocol that suggests he may not have any reading material in your cell. But people magazine sources that he has a bible. Is there
something to your religious freedom that dictates you must be able to have whatever you`re chosen religion is in your cell? As opposed to that one
hour out?
SANDLER: No. It absolutely is an exception. And for Jewish inmates, I`ve gotten permission to have prayer books or a sadder book at a certain
holiday. So, it is not unusual, it`s very common to have a bible or other religious material.
BANFIELD: So that, I`m only going to go to bat with you on this, when you`re under the close watch protocol, you know, for suicide watch, who
knows what could be done with the pages of the bible in order to kill oneself. That is why it was explained to me, bare necessities, no reading
material in that cell. That exception has to be made for religious material?
SANDLER: It is made for religious material. Unless they can connect some real threat or fear based on that individual`s profile. It is an
exception.
BANFIELD: Well, that is really fascinating. Pat, I want you to jump back in here with another big development that happened today. It`s sort of
like, when it rains it pours. When you go to the court web site, it will be barren for days. Even though we know, we just know motions had been
filed. We know legal paper works exist and then, Shazaam. You know, it is not from heaven all of the sudden for the journalist. He is trying to find
answers in this case.
There will be several different things posted. That is the case today. And what we learned today from these postings -- these public postings was
that the autopsy results do not seem to be a big bone of contention for Chris Watts and his team. They`re not worried if it becomes public. Can
you walk me through that?
LALAMA: I absolutely can, and I found it pretty amazing myself that they make this announcement via court documents that we don`t really give a
rat`s behind if you release the autopsy results. So that tells me that there`s nothing that further incriminates Chris Watts or maybe it`s just
neutral, it doesn`t say much, but here`s their very interesting argument, they`re saying, this is the defense.
Number one you already ruined this image, you have already tarnished the case file by these leaks that you refused to investigate. And number two,
the results of the autopsy are going to come out at a preliminary hearing anyway. But here is the caveat, they say, but if you continue to claim
that it`s going to impact any witnesses in the case, then we want a hearing, because we don`t know who the witnesses are, or we don`t know what
you`re trying to say about that. So, that is it in a nutshell.
BANFIELD: So, let me, once again go the counselor in the room, Rene Sandler, I had a theory as to why the prosecutors have requested that this
autopsy material stay confidential. And they cite the reason as, they need to still investigate witnesses.
[18:10:02] They still need to interview witnesses, and they don`t want them tainted with this information. They don`t want the witnesses to say, yes,
I think I know that, they only heard it on TV. But doesn`t it buy you time as a lawyer? Doesn`t it buy you time to wait on that information? Wait on
those witnesses? Because isn`t there a timeclock that starts ticking? The minute you interview those witnesses as a prosecutor. You`re going to have
to turn that stuff over to the defense in discovery.
SANDLER: Right. It is discovery material, but -- look, I don`t understand the defense position here being so cavalier about the results. I wouldn`t
want those results out, I would take a definitive position here. Because at both sides need to protect witnesses. Both sides need to protect taint.
Not just one side or the other. The prosecution is zeroing in right now on their experts, who they are going to have consult, who they are going to
testify at trial. So, protecting that information is actually important, and it works to protect both sides.
BANFIELD: Well, let me read something from the defense motion. And it`s about Chris Watts` rights being damaged. This was language. And I`m going
to ask our control room to grab that full screen number four for me. Because I think this is really telling. Its kind a legalese, but it gets
really -- I guess it really gets down and dirty to what the defense wants the public to know and let me read here.
Mr. Watts` rights to a fundamentally fair proceeding, and to ultimately a fair and impartial jury at trial have been so substantially damaged in this
case, it does not seem that any prophylactic order at least on the narrow issue of whether the autopsy should be released can serve to salvage the
wreckage of those rights, which may remain. It`s really dramatic stuff if you`re a lawyer. Maybe not as dramatic for a Hollywood script, but it is
dramatic stuff if you`re a lawyer. I am trying to get to what this means for them, they are trying to suggest over and over and over again to anyone
who will listen juries or judges, we`re already doomed in this process.
SANDLER: They have to. It`s a murder case, with the penalty being death. They have to raise it and re-raise it and re-raise it and say that it`s so
cumulatively impacts this man`s rights, that he cannot have a fair trial. They have to set up an appeal from the beginning before they even tried the
case. So they will continue to re-raise it.
BANFIELD: OK. So there`s this other little nugget. And again, it sounds kind of a legalese, but I am going to get to it, you have to kind of bare
with me. This one is for you, Pat. This is from the defense motion about these autopsy results, basically saying, you know, go ahead court, make
your decision, it doesn`t matter either way for us, if you release those autopsies to the public or not.
But this is from full screen number two, that is for our control man, if you want to see just pull this one up. And this says the government has
made no further proffer with respect to which witnesses it intends to interview that have not been interviewed. Nor how those witnesses, what
they have to say could be impacted by the contents of the autopsies. I`m no lawyer, Pat, but it sounds to me that they`re trying to -- they`re
angling for the prosecution to give them a list.
Look at who you`re talking to.
LALAMA: It`s sound like, it is a lot like me watching my dog chase its tail. That is what I feel like when I read some of these motions. And of
course you lawyer can speak more profoundly to this, but they are trying to make this argument that all this damage has been done, and it`s so blatant
and irreparable and that is what really they`re binning the case on that, you haven`t told us who the witnesses are, and so, how do we know whether
the witnesses can be tarnished, it`s just like these circular arguments. Now, I`m not saying they`re bad attorneys. I`m just saying for me, as a
journalist, what exactly -- what a point are they trying to make? And the point is they are trying to slam as much against the wall to say this guy
has been damaging and can`t get a fair trial as they possibly can.
BANFIELD: Well, I will tell you what, when you`re in his shoes and that is early in the case, with very little discovery, I think all they have at
this point may be just the autopsy results. You`re in a dark paper bag, your client`s story is the only thing you got, but you as the lawyer don`t
know what the prosecutions have that might not conform with that story at all.
And so they may have to recraft a defense once they start seeing what some of those witnesses have to say. I mean, you can really see the chess match
here, which makes legal news super interesting even if it sounds super boring. I want to ask the two of you to stand by, because you`re the two
ladies in the know when it comes to that stuff, the life of Shanann Watts, as it is for so many of us, was really largely lived out loud and online.
Just as we think we had seen just about everything that she did for her Facebook video and her Facebook pages, we found this. This is Shanann
Watts` baby blog. This is what she wrote to her unborn child at the time, Bella. And guess who else wrote, Chris. Bet you`re dying to find out what
he had to say.
{18:15:03] You`re going to find out next.
[18:20:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
S. WATTS: I love you Bella.
WATTS: So this means?
S. WATTS: That is just the test.
WATTS: When you want to, it happens.
S. WATTS: Look at her.
I will continue fighting for my children.
How many babies do I have in my belly?
B. WATTS: Five.
S. WATTS: Whoa! I see this picture of me as a baby, it is totally Cece. I`m being a better mom than I`ve ever been.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: It was a miracle she even got pregnant after battling a disease with her immune system. So, when Shanann was ready to have Bella, she
shared that joy with the world and not just on Facebook either. It seems she had a whole other platform to post on a blog that we just discovered
which shock full of pictures and of stories. And also of comments. That seemingly came from that guy, Chris the dad, comments to sweeten those very
sweet first moments. The couple was preparing for parenthood, and they seemed to be in it as a team.
Just like they seemed to be a team in all of the posts this summer, when Shanann was pregnant with baby number three. That loving husband is now
behind bars accusing all of them, accused of killing all of them, baby number three, baby number two, baby number one and the wife. And then
apparently telling police it was actually Shanann that was really the killer. Which makes you wonder what happened to that relationship, and to
the idea of them being parents in it together.
Back with me Crime Journalist, Pat Lalama. You know Pat, I don`t know about you, but I am looking at so many of these posts and realizing that
we`re in a new age of trials. Because so often, the lawyers have to recreate the victim. To try to humanize the victim to the jury, but
Shanann has pretty much done it. I mean she is seemingly alive to so many of us. We seemed to know who she is or her personality is like, because of
the prolific social media postings.
LALAMA: Well, you know what, Ashleigh, I go back and forth on this, because there are times, for example -- I looked at some of those pictures,
I mean, we`ve been doing this case for a while now, and it just hit me today the gravity of the death of those children. I saw one of those
little babies all tucked on her belly, you know, with -- it was just so sweet, it hit me, there are these two children now longer with us. And
then back to the issue of Shanann, there are times when I look at her posts and think, oh my gosh, she is so happy. She is using this great platform
of social media to show the world just how she is finally, you know, hobbled through by those illness issues. She got the man of her dreams
after having a terrible guy before. But then you go to those -- some of those videos, Ashleigh, where they`re heart breaking, when she sounds and I
mean this in the sweetest of ways almost pathetic and desperate for attention and I am thinking for myself, no, no, no, that wasn`t happy. So,
I don`t know where the truth lies.
BANFIELD: I don`t know. I keep looking at her as a pretty happy person.
She likes to be on video and communicate with her group. Let me show up a couple pictures here, that I think really -- like you said, all of a sudden
you start to see -- we`ve been living Shanann`s life, but now we`re starting to live the children`s lives with the post that go back so far. I
want to take you to her progression videos, Shanann`s pregnancy.
She goes through from 12 weeks pregnant right through to 32. You can just see the difference. She was so good about chronicling this, and showing
every single step of the way. This is all with Bella, I should let you know. That this is all the pregnancy with Bella back in 2013. It was July
through October. And eventually Bella was born December 17th in 2013.
And let me just read you this post about the day they found out they`re pregnant. I think it`s very telling. The day we found out we were
pregnant with you, April 16th, 2013, in the pictures and the test there, and Chris makes a comment. He says, OMG. I was so happy when your mother
told me she was pregnant. I felt extremely lucky, I can`t wait to meet you in December. And then Shanann also posts going to a baseball game. And
once again Chris comments. Shanann says, Bella`s first Rockies game, 18 weeks and 2 days. And Chris Watts says, we had a good time at the game,
your mom had soda and cotton candy, and she said she felt you kicking like crazy.
This is sort of like almost communicating with the growing little baby in his wife`s stomach. And you think about of what he is accused of doing
right now with growing little baby in his wife`s stomach. He is accused of murdering that baby as well this summer. Let me bring in Tom Verni on
something, because I know how Pat you feel about it, but as a police officer, I want to know how an investigator looks at this stuff. Do you
pour over these pages looking for clues, or is it just sort of the emotional that the lawyers will handle at trial.
[18:25:16] TOM VERNI, FORMER DETECTIVE, NEW YORK POLICE: Yes. The lawyers are definitely going to use that. The defense attorney will use it to --
whatever the feel it will be advantageous to their case. The prosecutor`s may use it as well. Definitely when you looked at all the social media
that they had out there, now -- a lot of people do have their personal lives out there for everybody to see, right. And you can sometimes tell
pretty quickly based on people daily or weekly posts, how their relationships are doing, right. And you know, some people during a fight
will broadcast that out to their family and friends and maybe even to the public.
BANFIELD: So you are glad of this post, if you see something that stands out as aggressive or out of the ordinary, you will grab that, you will turn
it over the prosecutors and say, we found this in our investigation. You might want to have a look?
VERNI: Well, yes, I mean, in the sense that we want to see if there`s been a history -- maybe there was some domestic abuse that no one was aware of
prior to this --
BANFIELD: We haven`t seen that, yes.
VERNI: Exactly.
BANFIELD: Just on that vane, it`s like the polar opposite. Here is Daddy`s first project for you, Shanann posts. It looks like it`s obviously
a highchair disassembled. And Chris has a comment. He says, it was rather easy, your mom helped me. Again, this is communicating to Bella, their
posts to Bella, and then Shanann posts, your daddy was sweetly reading a parenting magazine on our first visit to see you, this is May 9th, 2013.
Clearly it looks like they are at the doctors, she is going to get a checkup. And Chris puts a comment and saying, you can learn a lot from
those magazines.
And then August 2nd, 2013, it`s just a text, but it is interesting, it is titled kicking, Chris got to feel Bella kick tonight for the first time, he
thought it was amazing. And then on August 6th, just four days later, she has posted about the Bruno Mars concert. Saying your very first concert
and you danced all night long. Felt like you were fist pumping in my belly. Your dad and I would stop dancing and singing to feel you. It was
the best feeling in the world. We absolutely love feeling you kick and move, we can`t wait to meet you. We had so much fun at the concert. Bruno
Mars put on a fantastic show, you already love music. Love you Bella, see you soon.
Clearly they had already chosen that name in August, and that baby wasn`t even due until December. So then here`s in romantic post, a dinner date
for daddy, and I. This is posted on September 5th, 2013. 24.5 weeks here, we went to Pinocchio`s, one of my favorite places. They have a huge gluten
free menu. You kicked 17 times while I was eating salad and then kicked the entire night while I eat, you were very active. I`m going to take that
as your favorite will be Italian food too, love you.
Rene Sandler, as a defense attorney, I`d love to know what role this stuff plays if anything at trial. Because I got to be honest, when my baby`s
kicked, I cursed like a sailor, it hurt, I was uncomfortable, I was miserable and I shared didn`t post all this. I wasn`t posting back then, I
didn`t post this way, I didn`t write this way, I didn`t speak this way. This woman just seems like a saint for god sake. And as a defense
attorney, I can only imagine you think that might be an incredible, you know, vein to mind.
SANDLER: I had twins, so, I certainly didn`t post about that pregnancy. But when I look at this, Ashleigh, I`m looking at it for time line
purposes, to build a time line, to help me, I`m looking for investigative leads for me, but I`m also thinking, how is this coming into evidence if at
all? How do I get it in? How does the -- it`s not admissible. And here`s the issue. It`s hearsay. It is hearsay. And under the constitution. We
have confrontation clause issues. We can`t confront. Let`s say there was an issue with the 17 kicks and it ties into her pregnancy and some issue
that might become relevant in the trial about one of the children during the pregnancy. I`m making this up. How do you cross examine that? How do
you inquire of someone who`s not there to put it in context and answer questions? It`s hearsay. So it doesn`t come in unless it fits into an
exception under the hearsay rule. It`s really difficult and it is a blog by blog, text by text analysis.
BANFIELD: OK. So tell me this, I always get the hearsay by the way, you have to be so quick on your feed to catch that hearsay if it comes up.
Objection -- hearsay, but I want to read a couple more, and you just tell me if maybe they tweak your hear say responses. This one is about the
nursery that they`re building. Bella , I`ve been painting your room since Wednesday. Your daddy putting up your crown molding and chair molding
today. Can`t wait to see it when I get home from work. It`s going to be perfect. You can grow up in this room with minor changes. It`s very modern
as you will see. I love the modern contemporary look.
So, Rene, look at that and think, that`s a good one for Chris Watts. So maybe he wants to put that material in because it shows that he was home
building that nursery. How on earth could he possibly kill children? He was so dedicated to before they were even born.
RENE SANDLER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: So, on its face, it`s hearsay. It`s classic hearsay. Can`t cross examine it, it`s an out of court statement,
made for the truth of the matter asserted. That`s is hearsay.
BANFIELD: You can bring that in if he wants. It`s only a prosecutor who has to deal with that, correct?
SANDLER: No, the prosecutor can try and keep it out. The defense wants to put it in. But the point I`m making here is, the defense has to be careful
here about opening a door.
BANFIELD: Opening a door.
SANDLER: And that door, once it`s opened, it`s kicked wide open. And it`s free for all on both sides. So, you have to be incredibly tactical and
strategic with the use of this information.
BANFIELD: Yeah, it can certainly cut both ways. Those exceptions, like I said, the exceptions are hearsay. I could never do your job. I just don`t
think that -- I don`t think that quickly on my feet.
(LAUGHTER)
BANFIELD: Not unless I have pieces of paper in front of me. Rene, stand by, if you will for me. We`ve seen some of the images that -- they`re so
disturbing, right? Police were hauling out the industrial-sized trash from the house the night that Chris was arrested.
This is the home on Saratoga Trail. That is not trash. That is evidence. But what was in those bags? Look closely. Look really closely because it
turns out they`re slightly translucent. We zoomed the cameras real close, so you`ll be able to see what we think is in those bags and what it has to
do with the case. That`s next.
[18:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): Police are looking at DNA.
BANFIELD: He lied to all of us. Why are we to suspect for a moment he`s not going to lie to the police?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: DNA as long as it is stored probably can last a long time.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): She`s trying to find it right now. Come on!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Persons of interest are all people who cohabitated. Therefore, would be sharing their DNA with each other.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): They`re going to run that reference sample against it and see if it comes back to Chris Watts.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BANFIELD: They were notoriously loving parents from the way their friends describe them and from all the happy Facebook posts that showed off their
families more fun side. And they were no doubt the kind of parents who tucked their little girls into bed, maybe even still in those cute little
pigtails they are often pictured in, when they drifted off to sleep.
But sometime between August 12th and August 13th, Bella and Celeste had their last bedtime, because whether you believe Chris or the police, it
seems one of the parents killed those little girls, which might be why investigators were spotted doing this, hauling out all the bedding, sheets,
comforters maybe, hauling it out of the house in what looked like trash bags in the days after the Watts girls died.
The question now is, what those bed sheets might actually reveal and if it could be incredibly telling.
Joining me now is certified death investigator and professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University, Joseph Scott Morgan. Joe, I thought of
you right away, particularly when someone on the team -- on this program pointed out that those bags they were using were incredibly see-through.
And I want to just draw our viewers attention to the closeups, the closeup images of the bags, because we could see it. We could see it clear as day.
But not only did it have the appearance and the shape of bedding and the softness, but the bags seemed to be easy to spot. I think we got a good
image of it, a nice close image of -- see, that`s not the one, but we`ll get there in a second.
But when you do see it, you tend to start seeing what might look like pink and yellow and blue comforters or sheets or blankets. And we actually
compared them. There were plenty of those kinds of bed dressings all throughout the house. It`s kind of fascinating. But can sheets and bedding
really forensically tell us anything, like fingerprints and pressure and who might have killed the children? Can we really get there from fabric?
JOSEPH SCOTT MORGAN, CERTIFIED DEATH INVESTIGATOR: Yeah, you know, one of the things that`s kind of left me scratching my head about this case is
that, anybody that would play fast and loose with their marriage, I`m still thinking that the police are entertaining the thought that there could be
other parties involved. You have to at least explore that.
And so that brings us to this issue of individualization of evidence. And one of the things we go to now particularly are -- is DNA sample. I want to
know, you know, we`ve heard the term cohabitating, that these people are living and is dwelling together, their domicile there.
But is there some kind of outlier that is coming into this home that may have had contact that helped facilitate some of these events that`s not
part of the familial unit?
[18:40:02] So, that`s something that we would want to take a look at.
BANFIELD: That lady at work is probably shaking in her boots right now if that`s the case, because she -- if she were ever in that marital bed, and
if there is any DNA to prove it, that puts her square in the middle of a murder trial, doesn`t it? But before you answer that, I actually want to
get back to the key question here. The key question is that Chris Watts says, Shanann was strangling those kids. And he saw it on the baby monitor
which would put Shanann in the rooms of both kids over their beds, right? Is there a way to possibly tell that from the bedding? Or is there any
other reason that they might be able to find out the real story from the bedding?
MORGAN: I think that they want to check out every inch of this bedding because obviously he`s alluded to this, that there was specific contact.
And hey, at the end of the day, people in court are going to want to hear this. You know, you got this last place identified by him as the point
where these children allegedly met their demise.
So, yeah, you`re going to have to examine it and see what is there. Is there hair there? Is there evidence of DNA? I`m thinking about things like,
say for instance, there`s injuries to the throat and it caused them to regurgitate sputum in some way where we have maybe a mix of blood and
sputum there. That`s not something you would commonly --
BANFIELD: That`s not going to tell me whose hands. Let me ask you something else that I would -- I would not have noticed it and I dare say
people watching right now would not have noticed it, but your trained eye did.
MORGAN: Yeah.
BANFIELD: Let`s go back to those plastic bags that were coming out of the house. They used this what looked like big old trash bags. But for the fact
that they are super see-through -- and you have an issue with that. What is it?
MORGAN: Yeah, I do. I`ve been doing this for a long time, Ash. I`ve been training cops. I`ve been training forensic investigators for a long time.
One of the big no go areas is, we don`t put things in plastic, and why is that? Well, you`ve got fragile biological evidence and you place stuff in
plastic bags, those bags begin to sweat, and it can compromise the integrity of the biological sample.
BANFIELD: Well, these are paper bags. I see pictures of the big paper bags coming out of the people`s houses. I never thought you could put bedding
in. But just show that video of the different size of evidentiary bags. Look at the one on the far right. You could get all the bedding into one of
those. That`s what you should be using, right?
MORGAN: Yeah, yeah, the paper bag. You know, it doesn`t promote sweating. This is another thing. I`m not a big fan of co-mingling evidence. Let`s
say, for instance, we got sheets, comforters, maybe even a mattress pad. Those things should be individually packaged --
BANFIELD: Oh, good point.
MORGAN: -- and individually enumerated at the scene before they are removed. You know, I don`t know what their procedure is. I have no idea.
But in a class that I would teach, I would teach them not to use plastic.
BANFIELD: Separate bag for every piece. Makes sense to me. And I`m just, you know, on T.V. JSM, can you hold on for one second? I do have these --
MORGAN: Yeah.
BANFIELD: -- these things that are more riveting. We got to be honest. The courtroom drama. It unfolds live, unpredictable. It`s on the air a lot.
You`ve seen it with O.J., you`ve seen it with Casey, you`ve seen it with Jodi. And presumably at some point Chris Watts may just stand trial. So the
huge question here is, will there be cameras? That`s next.
[18:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I couldn`t ask for a better man. He completes me. Every day I thank god for everyone in my life. Say bye. Bye. Say bye.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Bye.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`ve made so many friendships and my husband from some of the negative things that have happened in my life.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) for the first time and see what the future holds.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I love being part of someone`s story.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BANFIELD: I`m not sure of the personalities of who`s involved in this case or just the unbearable tragedy of this case, but the followers around the
world on the story stretch from Canada to South Africa to Chile to Philippines to Europe to Australia.
Facebook has upwards of 90,000 members and 45 different pages, members and groups following this case, and their questions have been really good.
I want to read this one from Tara McNeil Perkins (ph). I noticed in videos that Shanann kept her home impossibly clean, all the way down to the inside
of the pantry. How long do you think it took investigators to realize that anything out of place would have been considered a big deal?
Tom Verni, I think as an investigator, former NYPD detective and a law enforcement consultant, that`s right in your wheelhouse. She was
meticulous. So that would be helpful to investigators, right?
TOM VERNI, FORMER NYPD DETECTIVE: Yeah, definitely makes it a little bit easier in the sense that if you`re keeping a clean house the way that she
apparently did and things are all in their place, and then you find numerous things that are not in their place, there may have been a struggle
involved, things pushed out of the way, what have you, during the incidents that occurred that evening.
So, yeah, that would definitely be an indicator. We would only get that information of course by interviewing a number of people, family, friends,
the people who frequented the house that would know that that`s normal for that house versus things being kind of in the mismatch.
[18:50:03] BANFIELD: Yeah, it sure was tidy. I remember thinking the first time I saw these videos, like, my god, I had two boys and the place
was a hurricane every day. It was terrible.
VERNI: Yeah.
BANFIELD: She was tidy and clean. White coverings on her kitchen table. Just remarkable. Let me ask this one from Julie Kalajian. I am not sure how
to pronounce it, but I think we got it right. If this goes to trial, will they allow cameras in the courtroom? Pat Lalama, that is a great question
and it`s the one we ask every time a case like this hits the press.
PAT LALAMA, CRIME JOURNALIST: I stood before judges begging to let us in. What it comes down to is this, it`s a state by state thing, and Colorado
does allow cameras in the courtroom, but Ashleigh, you know very well, it will come down to that judge. Does he think those cameras will develop a
circus in the courtroom or does the public have a right to see it step by step?
BANFIELD: That`s a good point. You know, California televises lots of things. In O.J., they said, you know, remarkably, yes.
LALAMA: And they regretted it.
BANFIELD: Ito (ph) has regretted it ever since. This one is from Madeline Greico (ph). She says, when time for trial if there is a trial, the
attorneys need to find out who these women and men are in love with this maniac, so they don`t get chosen on the jury. The syntax is funny here, but
I get your point.
Rene Sandler, maybe you can help me with this. Yesterday, we showed a couple of really bizarre letters from people who have seemingly fallen in
love with Chris Watts. It`s a jailhouse letter. We haven`t seen those, but it is posted on social media, saying how innocent he is and how much they
love him, and I talked to your parents, et cetera. How do you make sure that people like this don`t get on the jury?
SANDLER: In voir dire, which is a search for the truth, both sides and the judge get an opportunity to ask questions of each prospective juror to look
for any biases, any prejudices, and to see whether or not they can be fair and impartial. That`s the process for selecting a jury. That`s the only
thing --
BANFIELD: You have to watch it, the stealth jurors. OK, so, another big question. It`s great. We`re only eight weeks into this, folks, and we`re
getting questions like oh, my god, how long is this going to take? We`ll have the answer for you, next.
[18:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BANFIELD: Back live with Joseph Scott Morgan, certified death investigator and professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University. So, your job
is very complicated. Science always is. But I have this great question from a Facebook viewer, Joe. I love her name, by the way. It`s Aieta Lovelace
(ph). I just love your name.
This is a great question. Why is this case taking so long when he confessed? I`m going to start the answer this way, and I want you to carry
the ball after me, if you will, Joe. The police say he confessed. So you got to take that, because he might fight that. And just tell me a little
bit about the logistics of taking someone in a criminal trial on nine felonies including five first-degree murder charges in a death penalty
state?
MORGAN: Oh, boy, I tell you what, it`s a nightmare. They`re going to handle this as if he hasn`t confessed. If they`re still trying to solve
this thing, nothing is taken for granted. Ashleigh, go back to those bags.
Just imagine those bags times -- I don`t know how many. This is a very involved case. They are taking so much evidence from this house
individually. And each thing has to be tested in a particular way. And this is a huge strata to kind of work through.
I`ve worked many multiple homicide cases that are very high profile. And you treat this in a particular way because you know that all eyes are going
to be upon you, not to mention everything that lawyers do, in addition to this. So you got these two things that are kind of bumping heads along the
way here.
BANFIELD: Yeah. Tom Verni, as an investigator, I have got to imagine that you dot every "I," you cross every "T," then you go back and you check the
"I," you check the "T," then you have a third set of eyes do the same thing before you turn over this mountain of evidence to a prosecutor.
Because again, the stakes are so high, this is first-degree murder, it`s potential death penalty, and you guys are the first defense, like you`re
the first guys to the scene, so you got to be meticulous.
VERNI: Yeah, especially in a case like this. You don`t want to mess up a case like this. As Joe had mentioned before, again, different departments
have different procedures on how they collect evidence. And the transfer of evidence too has to be online too because you have to be able to connect
the dots from where that evidence is going.
From the officer that`s collecting the evidence to the lab to the court and what have you. So, there`s a lot of things that come into it, especially a
high profile case like this, and I`m sure they`re aware of this. I`m sure they`re going to cover all the bases.
BANFIELD: We`re only at the beginning, too. We are eight weeks in. I sit down and have a glass of wine and --
VERNI: Yeah.
BANFIELD: -- and get settled in for a long, long winter`s nap.
[19:00:02] All right, thanks so much to all my guests. The next hour of "Crime & Justice" begins right now.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): Disturbing new reports tonight straight out of Chris Watts` jail cell.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s not doing well at all.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: He`s looking at a photo of the family he`s accused of killing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHANANN WATTS, WIFE OF CHRIS WATTS: Oh, my goodness.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: What Chris is reportedly thinking while staring at those now lifeless little faces?
SHANANN WATTS: Hi.
BELLA WATTS, WATTS CHILDREN: Hi.
CELESTE WATTS, WATTS CHILDREN: Hi.
SHANANN WATTS: Oh, you guys are so cute.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: And what he is supposedly reading while sitting in that cell.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Depression is setting in.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: While investigators seem to be scrutinizing, something he left in the house.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s plenty of evidence that was found on everything from bedding to clothes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: Could some left behind bed sheets be the clue as to who killed those children?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: whatever they have already, they`re going to run that reference sample against it, and see if it comes back to Chris Watts.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
.BANFIELD: Plus, the autopsies are over.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We do have Chris Watts saying that he did strangle Shanann. It is possible that the little girls were strangled as well.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: But the results have been kept a secret.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And there`s still more questions than answers.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: So while Chris Watts` stares at their pictures, does he mind if their autopsies go public? You might be surprised with the answer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: It`s a chess game now between prosecution and defense.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: Good evening, everyone. I`m Ashleigh Banfield. And this is Crime and Justice. Tonight an alarming new detail from that lonely
Colorado jail cell that Chris Watts has been calling home. As his defense team spars with prosecutors over those pesky autopsy results that may or
may not be released to the public. And may or may not tell us who actually was the killer of those children.
Apparently Chris` lawyers don`t care if any potential jurors learn the dark details of his wife and daughter`s deaths because they`re saying someone
already tainted the jury pool by leaking investigation from the investigation. So it could be a matter of time before we find out how the
Watts girls died. Something Chris Watts is thinking about from his cell at the Weld County Jail. And we know this because according to a source that
People Magazine is quoting, he now has a little decoration in an otherwise barren chamber. A single photograph of the wife and kids he`s accused of
killing.
Of course Chris Watts says he only killed Shanann he says when he caught her strangling their daughters. But at this point, only he and God really
know the truth. And he`s had plenty of time to talk with God behind bars.
With the same source telling People Magazine, he`s been busy reading his bible, the only other personal item that`s in that cell with him. Joining
me now Crime Journalist Pat Lalama who`s been covering this case, and I have to say, it`s a little astounding, Pat, to learn that he may just have
a photo of Shanann and the children in that cell, as well as a bible, given the fact that the close watch protocol he was on dictates nothing at all
should be in that cell. No reading material, no paper goods just bare essentials. But this is what People Magazine is reporting he does have.
PAT LALAMA, CRIME JOURNALIST: Well here`s the question, Ashleigh, is it for optics purposes? I don`t want to sounds, you know, be grudging of him.
But is it for show? Did his defense attorney, his public defenders say it might look good if you look like you were sorrowful over the family that
you no longer have or is he a man deep in his own personal guilt, drowning in his own personal guilt, and remembering the family that he once had?
And we don`t know. We just don`t know what a man who is capable of killing his wife and admits he did it, we don`t know what he`s thinking.
BANFIELD: I think it`s a great point you bring up. Are we jaded wondering --
LALAMA: Right. Right.
BANFIELD: -- if this is actually genuine or even true for that matter, I`ll be honest. You know the close watch protocol is described to me by my
source at that jail, which was an impeccable source was that no reading materials at all unless that hour he gets out in the hour out room where
the newspapers are located that`s where he gets to read but otherwise, only the bare essentials.
That may have changed. But they are so tight lipped. And I`m going to be honest with you, they have a Public Information Officer in the Weld County
Jail who has never once returned a call. A publicly paid employee whose job it is to inform the public. Public information officer who does not
ever return a phone call so it`s a little astounding, even to say your reporting is right or wrong, or no comment, either one. But we`re not
getting any of that.
I have this question for you because when I heard that this was possible that there might be a photo of that family in his cell, lo and behold, you
know, you go back to the analysis of all the things we`ve covered, Pat. And we`ve seen this before. Remember Laci Peterson`s picture was apparently
in Scott Peterson`s cell.
LALAMA: Well absolutely. And it`s astonishing to think but again, you know, I am jaded. I`m going to be honest with you. I am jaded. I`m
thinking, you know, maybe on the side I shouldn`t think as a journalist. But I don`t -- like you say, we don`t know for a fact that those picture,
that that picture is in Chris Watts` cell. But I`m just a little bit curious about the timing. I`m just a little curious about the fact that
the information came out. And, you know, oh, geez is Chris suddenly having these pangs of horrific guilt for what happened?
BANFIELD: So I`m going to bring Rene Sandler into this because as a defense attorney she may have insight as to whether there is strategy
behind this. And if Scott Peterson Rene was not the only person that came to mind. O.J. Simpson came to mind because we spoke to someone who had
intimate knowledge of O.J.`s life at the Lovelock Prison in Nevada.
And that guard said he had a picture of Nicole. And that he could see her every morning when he woke up. But that is the image he looked at every
morning in his cell. You know, just before he was released. And that isn`t long ago. And those -- those words were you know, 20 years ago.
So, is it a strategy? Is it something to create a sympathetic image for defense attorneys to suggest that a defendant better have that victim, that
image in his cell?
RENBE SANDLER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: There could be a totally innocent explanation here. As a defense attorney I`m in communication with jail
authorities all the time and there are things that happen that the public doesn`t know about. I can get permission for something to come inside a
jail cell. So for an attorney to ask for a picture to come inside a client`s cell is not unusual at all. And it doesn`t mean anything
nefarious. It could be a completely innocent explanation.
BANFIELD: And then one other just protocol question for you because my team and I were debating the possibilities of an exceptions to the rule in
the close watch protocol that suggests he may not have any reading material in your cell. The People Magazine source says he`s got a bible. Is there
something to your religious freedom that dictates you must be able to have whatever you`re chosen religion is in your cell? As opposed to that one
hour out?
SANDLER: No, it absolutely is an exception. And for Jewish inmates, I`ve gotten permission to have prayer books or a Seder book at a certain high
holiday. So it is not unusual. It`s very common to have a bible or other religious material.
BANFIELD: So that -- I`m only going to go to bat with you on this, when you`re under the close watch protocol, you know, fancy name for suicide
watch.
SANDLER: Sure.
BANFIELD: Who knows what could be done with the pages of the bible in order to kill oneself and that`s why it was explained to me, bare
necessities, no reading material in that cell. That exception has to be made for a religious material?
SANDLER: It is made for religious material unless they can connect some real threat or fear based on that individual`s profile. So it is an
exception.
BANFIELD: Well that`s pretty fascinating. Pat I want you to jump back in here with another big development that happened today. And it`s sort of
like, when it rains it pours. When you go to the court web site, it will be barren for days even though
we know, we just know motions have been filed and we know legal paperwork exists. And then Shazam, you know, it`s mana from heaven all of a sudden
for the journalist whose trying to find answers in this case.
LALAMA: Right.
BANFIELD: And they`ll be several different things posted. That`s the case today. And what we learned from these postings -- these public postings
was that the autopsy results do not seem to be a big bone of contention for Chris Watts and his team. They`re not worried if it becomes public. Can you
walk me through that?
LALAMA: I absolutely can, and I found it pretty amazing myself that they make this announcement via court documents that we don`t really give a
rat`s behind if you release the autopsy results. So that tells me that there`s nothing that further incriminates Chris Watts or maybe it`s just
neutral. It doesn`t say much.
But here`s their very interesting argument. They`re saying, this is the defense. Number one you`ve already ruined us. You`ve already ruined this
image. You`ve already tarnished the case by all these leaks that you refuse to investigate.
And number two the results of an autopsy are going to come out at a preliminary hearing anyway. But here`s the caveat they say but if you
continue to claim that it`s going to impact any witnesses in the case, then we want a hearing because we don`t know who the witnesses are and we don`t
know what you`re trying to say about that. So that`s it in a nutshell.
BANFIELD: So let me go to the counselor in the room, Rene Sandler. I had a theory as to why the prosecutors have requested that this autopsy
material stay confidential. And they cite the reason as, they need to investigate witnesses. They still need to interview witnesses, and they
don`t want them tainted with this information.
They don`t want the witnesses to say, yeah, I think I know that but they really heard it on TV. But doesn`t it buy you time as a lawyer?
Doesn`t it buy you time to as a lawyer? Doesn`t it buy you time to wait on that information? Wait on those witnesses? Because isn`t there a time
clock that starts ticking the minute you interview those witnesses as a prosecutor, you`re going to have to turn that stuff over to the defense in
discovery?
SANDLER: Right. It`s discovery material. But, look, I don`t understand the defense position here being so cavalier about the results. I wouldn`t
want the results out. I would take a definitive position here because if both sides need to protect witnesses. Both sides need to protect taint.
Not just one side or the other. The prosecution is zeroing in on their experts, who they`re going to have consult, who they`re going to testify at
trial. So protecting that information is actually important, and it works to protect both sides.
BANFIELD: Well let me -- let me read something from the defense motion. And it`s about Chris Watts` rights being damaged. This was language. And
I`m going to ask our control room to grab that full screen number for me because I think this is really telling.
It`s kind of legalese. But it gets really -- I guess it really gets down and dirty to what the defense wants the public to know. And let me read
here. Mr. Watts` rights to a fundamentally fair proceeding, and ultimately a fair and impartial jury at trial had been so substantially damaged in
this case.
It does not seem that any order at least on the narrow issue of whether the autopsy should be released can serve to salvage the wreckage of those
rights, which may remain. It`s really dramatic stuff if you`re a lawyer. Maybe not as dramatic for a Hollywood script, but dramatic if you`re a
lawyer. I`m trying to get to what this mean Rene. They`re trying to suggest over and over and over again to anyone who will listen juries or
judges, we`re already doomed in this process.
SANDLER: They have to. It`s a murder case, with the penalty being death. They have to raise it and reraise it and reraise it and say that it`s so
cumulatively impacts this man`s rights that he cannot have a fair trial.
They have to set up an appeal from the beginning before they even tried the case. So they will continue to reraise it.
BANFIELD: OK. So there`s this other little nugget. And again, it sounds legalese but I`m going to get to it. So you have to kind of bare with me.
And this question is for you, Pat, this is from the defense motion about these autopsy results basically saying, you know, go ahead, court. Make
your decision. It doesn`t matter either way for us if you release those autopsies to the public or not.
But this is -- this is from full screen number two. That`s for our control room if you want to pull this up. And this says "The government has made
no further proffer with respect to which witnesses it intends to interview that have not been interviewed nor how those witnesses, what they have to
say could be impacted by the contents of the autopsies." I`m no lawyer Pat but it sounds to me that they`re trying to -- they`re angling for the
prosecution to give them a list. We want to know who you`re talking to.
LALAMA: It sounds to me -- it`s a lot like me watching my dog chase its tail. I mean that`s what I feel like when I read some of these motions.
And, of course, your lawyer can speak more profoundly to this. But they`re trying to make this arguments that all this damage has been done. And it`s
so blatant and irreparable and that`s what they`re pinning the case on that you haven`t told us who the witnesses are and so how do we know whether
witnesses can be tarnished. It`s just these circular arguments.
Now I`m not saying they`re bad attorneys. I`m just saying for me, as a journalist, what point are they trying to make? And the point is that
they`re trying to slam as much against the wall to say this guy`s been damaged and can`t get a fair trial as much as they possibly can.
BANFIELD: Well and I`ll tell you what, when you`re in his shoes, and that is early in the case with very little discovery, and I think all they may
have at this point is the autopsy results. You`re in a -- you`re in a dark paper bag.
LALAMA: Right.
BANFIELD: And your client`s story is the only thing you`ve got. But you as the lawyer don`t know what the prosecution`s have that might not conform
with that story at all.
And so they may have to recraft a defense like a split once they start seeing what some of those witnesses have to say. I mean you can see the
chess match here which makes legal news super interesting even when it sounds super boring. I want to ask the two of you to stand by because
you`re the two ladies in the know when it comes to that stuff.
But the life of Shanann watts, as it is for so many of us, was largely lived out loud and online. Just when we think we`ve seen everything she
did through her Facebook videos and Facebook pages, we found this. This is Shanann Watts` baby blog.
This is what she wrote to her unborn child at the time, Bella. And guess who else wrote, Chris. Bet you`re dying to find out what he had to say.
You`re going to find out next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHANANN WATTS: You want to give the baby a hug? I love you, Bella.
CHRIS WATTS: So pink means?
SHANANN WATTS: It`s just a test.
CHRIS WATTS: Yes. And when you want to it happens
SHANNAN WATTS: Look at her. I will continue fighting for my children. How many babies do I have in my belly?
BELL WATTS: Five.
SHANNAN WATTS: Whoa. I see this picture of me as a baby, it is totally Cece. I`m being a better mom than I`ve ever been.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: It was a miracle she ever got pregnant after battling a disease with her immune system. So when Shanann was ready to have Bella,
she shared that joy with the world and not just on Facebook either.
It seems she had a whole other platform to post on a Blog that we just discovered which is chalk full of pictures and of stories and also of
comments that seemingly came from that guy, Chris the dad, comments to sweeten those sweet first moments. The couple was preparing for parenthood,
and they seemed to be in it as a team.
Just like they seemed to be a team in all of the posts this summer, when Shanann was pregnant with baby number three. But that loving husband is
behind bars accusing all of them -- accused of killing all of them, baby number three, baby number two, baby number one and the wife. And then
apparently telling police it was actually Shanann that was the killer which makes you wonder what happened to that relationship, and to the idea of
them being parents in it together.
Back with me, Crime Journalist, Pat Lalama. You know Pat I don`t know about you, but I am looking at so many of these posts and realizing we`re
in a new age of trials because so often the lawyers have to re-create the victim to humanize the victim to the jury but Shanann has done it. I mean
she`s seemingly alive to so many of us. We know who she is, what her personality because of the prolific social media postings.
LALAMA: Well you know what Ashleigh? I go back and forth on this, because there are times, for example -- I looked at some of those pictures and I
mean we`ve been doing this case for a while now, and it just hit me today the gravity of the death of those children. I saw one of those babies
tucked on her belly, you know, with -- it was -- it was just so sweet, it hit me, there are the two children no longer with us. Back to the issue of
Shanann, there are times I look at her posts and I think oh my gosh, she`s so happy.
And she`s showing, you know, she`s using this great platform of social media to show the world how she`s finally you know hobbled through illness
issues. And she has the man of her dreams after having a terrible guy before. But then you go to some of those videos Ashleigh where they`re
just heartbreaking where she sounds. And I mean this in the sweetest of ways almost pathetic and desperate for attention. And I`m thinking to
myself no, no, no. This wasn`t happy. So I don`t know where the truth lies.
BANFIELD: I don`t know. I keep looking at her as a pretty happy person.
LALAMA: I don`t. I don`t.
BANFIELD: Who just like -- who just likes to be on video and communicate with her group. Let me -- let me throw up a couple pictures here that I
think really are -- like you said they all of a sudden you start to see -- look we`ve been living Shanann`s life. But now we`re starting to live the
children`s lives with the posts that go back so far.
I want to take you through her progression videos of Shanann`s pregnancy. She goes through from 12 weeks pregnant right through to 32. You can just
see the difference like she was so good about chronicling this and showing every step of the way. This is all with Bella, I should let you know that
this is all the pregnancy with Bella back in 2013.
And it was July through October. And eventually Bella was born December 17th in 2013. And let me just read you this post about the day they found
out that they`re pregnant because I think it`s very telling. The day we found out we were pregnant with you, April 16th, 2013 and the pictures of
the test there and Chris makes a comment. He says, OMG. I was so happy when your mother told me she was pregnant. I felt extremely lucky. I
can`t wait to meet you in December.
And then Shanann also posts going to a baseball game. And once again, Chris comments. Shanann says, Bella`s first Rockies game, 18 weeks and 2 days.
And Chris Watts says, we had a good time at the game, your mom had soda and cotton candy. And she said she felt you kicking like crazy. This is sort
of like almost communicating with the growing little baby in his wife`s stomach.
And we think of what he`s accused of doing right now with growing little baby in his wife`s stomach. He`s accused of murdering that baby as well
this summer. Let me bring in Tom Vermi on something because I know how Pat you feel about it. But as a police officer, I want to know how an
investigator looks at this stuff. Do you pour over these pages looking for clues, or is it the emotional stuff that lawyers will handle at trial?
TOM VERMI, FMR NYPD DETECTIVE: Well good evening. And yes, the lawyers are definitely going to use that. The defense attorney will use it for
whatever they may feel it`ll be advantageous to their case. The prosecutors may use it as well. They would de want to use -- look at all
the social media that they have out there.
Now a days a lot of days a lot of people do have their personal lives out there for everybody to see, right? And you can sometimes tell pretty
quickly based on people`s daily or weekly posts, how their relationships are doing, right? You know? Some people will broadcast that out to their
family and friends.
BANFIELD: So you`ll grab one of these posts if you see something that stands out as aggressive or out of the ordinary. You`ll grab that.
You`ll turn it over to the prosecutors and say we found this in our investigation. You may want to have a look?
VERMI: Well yes, I mean, in the sense that we want to see if there`s been a history -- maybe there was some domestic abuse that no one was aware of
prior to this --
BANFIELD: We haven`t seen here. Yes, we haven`t seen that.
VERMI: Right, exactly.
BANFIELD: Let me keep going just on that vane, it`s like the polar opposite. Here -- here`s daddy`s first project for you, Shanann posts.
And it looks like it`s obviously a highchair disassembled. And Chris has a comment.
He says it was rather easy, your mom helped me. Again this is communicating to Bella, It`s their posts to Bella, and then Shanann posts, your daddy was
sweetly reading a parenting magazine on our first visit to see you. This is may 9th, 2013 and clearly at the doctor`s. She`s going to get a
checkup.
And Chris puts a comment in saying you can learn a lot from those magazines. And then august 2nd, 2013, it`s just a text but it`s
interesting. It`s titled kicking. Chris got to feel Bella kick tonight for the first time. He thought it was amazing.
And then on August 6th, just four days later, she has posted about the Bruno Mars concert saying your very first concert and you danced all night
long. Felt like you were fist pumping in my belly. Your dad and I would stop dancing and singing to feel you. It was the best feeling in the world.
We absolute love feeling you kick and move. We cannot wait to meet you. We had so much fun at the concert. Bruno Mars put on a fantastic show. You
already love music. Love you bella. See you soon.
And clearly they had already chosen that name in August. And that baby wasn`t due until December. So then here`s this romantic post, a dinner date
for daddy and I. This is posted September 5th, 2013. 24.5 weeks here, we went to Pinocchio`s, one of my favorite places. they have a huge gluten
free menu. You kicked 17 times while I was eating Caprese salad, and then kicked the entire time while I ate. You were very active.
I`m going to take that as your favorite will be Italian food too. Love you. Rene Sandler, as a defense attorney I`d love to know what role this stuff
plays if anything at trial because I`ve got to be honest when my baby`s kicked, I cursed like a sailor, it hurt. I was uncomfortable. I was
miserable and I sure didn`t post all this. Well, I wasn`t posting back then. I didn`t post this way, I didn`t write this way, I didn`t speak this
way. This woman seems like a saint for god sake. And as a defense attorney, I can only imagine you think that might be an incredible vein to mine.
SANDLER: I look at -- look, I had twins so I certainly didn`t post about that pregnancy. But when I look at this, Ashleigh I am looking at it for
time line purposes, to build a time line, to help me. I`m looking for investigative leads for me. But I`m also thinking, how is this coming into
evidence if at all? How do I get it in. how does the -- it`s not admissible.
Here`s the issue. It`s hearsay. It is hearsay. And under the constitution, we have confrontation clause issues. We can`t confront. Let`s say there was
an issue with the 17 kicks and it ties into her pregnancy and some issue that might become relevant in the trial about one of the children during
the pregnancy.
I`m making this up. How do you cross examine that? How do you inquire of someone who`s not there to put it in context and answer questions? It`s
hearsay. So it doesn`t come in unless it fits into an exception under the hearsay. It`s really difficult and it`s a blog by blog, text by text
analysis.
BANFIELD: OK. So tell me this, I always get -- the hearsay by the way, you have to be so quick to catch that hearsay as it comes up. And you have
to objection, hearsay. But Ii want to read a couple more, and you tell me if they tweak your hear say responses. one is about the nursery that
they`re building, Bella. I`ve been painting your room since Wednesday. Your daddy putting up your crown molding and chair molding today. Can`t
wait to see it when I get home from work. It`s going to be perfect. And you can grow up in this room with minor changes. It`s very modern as you
will see. I love the modern contemporary look. So, Rene, I look at that and think, that`s a good one for Chris Watts. So, maybe he wants to put
that material in, because it shows that he was home building that nursery, how on earth could he possibly kill children. He was so dedicated to
before they were even born.
RENE SANDLER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: So, on its face, it`s hearsay. It`s classic hearsay. Can`t cross examine it, it`s an out of court statement
made for the truth of the matter asserted. That`s the -- that is hearsay.
BANFIELD: Yes. But you can bring that in if he wants. It`s only prosecutors who have to deal with that, correct?
SANDLER: No. That`s -- the prosecutor could try and keep it out if the defense wants to put it in, but the point I`m making here is, the defense
has to be careful here about opening a door.
BANFIELD: Opening a door.
SANDLER: And that door, once it`s opened, it`s kicked wide open. And it`s a free for all on both sides. So, you have to be incredibly tactical and
strategic with the use of this information.
BANFIELD: Yes, it can certainly cut both ways. And those exceptions, like I said, the exceptions to hearsay, I could never do your job. I just don`t
think that -- I don`t think that quickly on my feet, not unless I have pieces of paper in front of me. Rene, stand by if you will for me. We`ve
seen some of the images that they are so disturbing, right? The police that were hauling out all that industrial-sized trash from the house the
night that Chris was arrested. This is the home on Saratoga Trail, and that`s not trash, that is evidence. But what was in those bags? Look
closely, look really closely, because it turns out they`re slightly translucent. And we zoomed the cameras real close. So, you`ll be able to
see what we think is in those bags and what it has to do with the case. That`s next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[19:36:43] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police are looking at DNA.
BANFIELD: He lied to all of us. Why are we to suspect for a moment he`s not going to lie to police?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The DNA, as long as it`s stored properly can last a long time.
SHANANN WATTS, MURDER VICTIM: She`s trying to climb the bed right now. Come on.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Persons of interest are all people who cohabitated, therefore, would be sharing their DNA with each other.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They`re going to run that reference sample against it, and see if it comes back to Chris Watts.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: They were notoriously loving parents from the way their friends describe them, and from all the happy Facebook posts that showed off their
family`s more fun side. And they were no doubt the kind of parents who tucked their little girls into bed, maybe even still in those cute little
pigtails they`re often pictured in, and they drifted off to sleep.
But sometime between August 12th and August 13th, Bella and Cece had their last bedtime. Because whether you believe Chris or the police, it seems
one of those parents killed those little girls. Which might be why investigators were spotted doing this, hauling out all of the bedding,
sheets, comforters, maybe, hauling it out of the house in what looked like trash bags in the days after the Watts girls died. The question is now,
what those bed sheets might actually reveal? And if it could be incredibly telling.
Joining me now, certified death investigator and professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University, Joseph Scott Morgan. Joe, I thought of you
right away, particularly when someone on the team, on this program, pointed out that those bags they were using were incredibly see through. And I
want to just draw our viewers` attention to the closeups. The closeup images of the bags, because we could see it. We could see it clear as day,
that not only did it have the appearance of the shape of bedding and the softness, but the bags seemed to be easy to spot.
I mean, I think we got a good image of it, a nice close image of -- see, that`s not the one, but we`ll get there in a second. But when you do see
it, you tend to start seeing what might look like pink, and yellow, and blue comforters, or sheets or blankets. And we actually compared them.
There were plenty of those kinds of, you know, bed dressings all throughout the house. It`s kind of fascinating, but can sheets and bedding really
forensically tell us anything, like fingerprints and pressure, and who might have killed the children? Can we really get there from fabric?
JOSEPH SCOTT MORGAN, CERTIFIED DEATH INVESTIGATOR: Well, yes. You know, one of the things that`s kind of left me scratching my head about this case
is that, anybody that would play fast and loose with their marriage, I`m still thinking that the police are entertaining the thought that there
could be other parties involved. You`d have to at least explore that, and so that brings us to this issue of individualization of evidence. And one
of the things that we go to now particularly are -- is DNA sample. And I want to know -- you know, we`ve heard the term cohabitating, that these
people are living in this dwelling together, their domicile there. But is there some kind of outlier that is coming into this home that may have had
contact that helped facilitate some of these events that`s not part of the familial unit. So, that`s something that we would want to take a look at.
As far as (INAUDIBLE) -- I`m sorry, go ahead.
(CROSSTALK)
[19:40:02] BANFIELD: Boy, that lady at work is probably shaking in her boots right now if that`s the case, because she -- if she were ever in that
marital bed and then any DNA to prove it, that puts her square in the middle of a murder trial, doesn`t it? But before you answer that, I
actually want to get back to the key question here.
MORGAN: Yes, sure.
BANFIELD: The key question is that Chris Watts says Shanann was strangling those kids. And he saw it on the baby monitor, which would put Shanann in
the rooms of both kids, over their beds, right? Is there a way to possibly tell that from the bedding, or is there any other reason that they might be
able to find out the real story from the bedding?
MORGAN: Well, I think that they want to check out every inch of this bedding. Because obviously, he`s alluded to this that there was specific
contact. And hey, at the end of the day, people in court are going to want to hear this. You know, you got this last place identified by him as the
point where these children allegedly met their demise. So, yes, you`re going to have to examine it, and see what is there. Is there hair there,
is there evidence of DNA? And I`m thinking about things like, say for instance, there`s injuries to the throat, and it caused him to regurgitate
sputum in some way, where we have maybe a mix of blood and sputum there. That`s not something you would commonly find.
BANFIELD: That`s not going to tell me whose hands. But that`s not going to tell me whose hands. Let me ask you something else that I would not --
I would not have noticed it, and I dare say people watching right now would not have noticed it. But your trained eye did. Let`s go back to those
plastic bags that were coming out of the house. They used these what looked like big old trash bags, but for the fact that they are super see
through -- and you have an issue with that. What is it?
MORGAN: Yes, I do. I`ve been doing this for a long time, Ash. I`ve been training cops, been training forensic investigators for a long time. One
of the big no-go areas is we don`t put things in plastic, and why is that? Well, you`ve got fragile, biological evidence, and you place stuff in
plastic bags, those bags begin to sweat. And it can compromise the integrity of the biological sample. That`s everything from skin --
BANFIELD: I always see the paperbags -- I always see the picture, the big paperbags coming out of people`s houses. I never thought you could sit
bedding in, but just show that video of the different size of evidentiary bags that you got me -- look at the one on the far right, you can get all
the bedding into one of those. That`s what you should be using, right?
MORGAN: Yes, yes. The paperbag, you know, it doesn`t promote sweating. And this is another thing, I`m not a big fan of co-mingling evidence.
Let`s say for instance, we`ve got sheets, comforters, maybe even a mattress pad, those things should be individually packaged --
BANFIELD: Wow. Good point.
MORGAN: -- and individually enumerated at the scene before they`re removed.
BANFIELD: OK. That`s interesting.
MORGAN: Now, you know, I don`t know what their procedure is, I have no idea. But in a class that I would teach, I would teach them not to use
something like plastic.
BANFIELD: Separate bag for every piece. You know, makes sense to me. And I`m just, you know, on T.V. JSM, can you hold on for one second.
MORGAN: You bet.
BANFIELD: I do have this -- there`s a few things that are more riveting. You got to be honest, and this courtroom drama, it unfolds live, it`s
unpredictable, it`s on the air a lot, you`ve seen it, O.J., you`ve seen it with Casey, you`ve seen it with Jodi, and presumably at some point, Chris
Watts may just stand trial. So, the huge question here is, will there be cameras? That`s next.
[19:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
S. WATTS: I couldn`t ask for a better man. He completes me. Every day I thank God for everyone in my life. Say goodbye? Bye. Say bye,
(INAUDIBLE).
CECE WATTS, MURDER VICTIM: Bye.
S. WATTS: So cute. I`ve gain so many friendships and my husband from some of the negative things that have happened in my life.
CHRIS WATTS, MURDER SUSPECT: I`m just excited about being here for the first time and seeing what the future holds.
S. WATTS: I love being a part of someone`s story.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: I`m not sure if it`s the personalities of who`s involved in this case, or just the unbearable tragedy of this case, but the followers around
the world on this story, stretch from Canada, to South Africa, to Chile, to Philippines, to Europe, to Australia. Facebook has upwards of 90,000
members and 45 different pages, members, groups following this case. And their questions have been really good. I want to read this one from Tara
McNeil Perkins. "I noticed in videos that Shanann kept her home impossibly clean, all the way down to the inside of the pantry. How long do you think
it took investigators to realize that anything out of place would have been considered a big deal?" Tom Verni, I think as an investigator, former NYPD
detective and a law enforcement consultant, that`s right in your wheelhouse. She was meticulous, so that would be helpful to investigators,
right?
TOM VERNI, RETIRED DETECTIVE, NYPD: Yes, it definitely makes it a little bit easier, in the sense that if you`re keeping a clean house the way that
she apparently did, and things are all in their place, and then you find numerous things are not in their place, then right off the bat, then you
can tell whether there may have been a struggle involved, and things have been pushed out of the way, or what have you, during, you know, the
incidents that occurred that evening. So, yes, that would definitely be an indicator, but we`d only get that information, of course, by interviewing a
number of people, family, friends, the people who frequented the house, they would know that that`s normal for that house, versus things being kind
of in the mishmash.
[19:50:02] BANFIELD: Yes, it sure was tidy. I remember thinking the first time I saw these videos, like, my God, I had two boys and the place was a
hurricane every day. It was terrible. But she was tidy and clean. The white coverings on her kitchen table is just remarkable. Let me ask this
one from Julie Kalajian (ph) or Kalajian, I`m not sure how to pronounce it, but I think we got it right. "If this goes to trial, will they allow
cameras in the courtroom? Pat Lalama, that is a great question, and it`s the one we ask every time a case like this hits the press.
PAT LALAMA, CRIME JOURNALIST: Absolutely.
BANFIELD: What do you think?
LALAMA: I`ve stood before judges begging to let us in. What it comes down to is this, it`s a state by state thing, and Colorado does allow cameras in
the courtroom, but, Ashleigh, you know very well, it will come down to that judge. Does he think those cameras will develop a circus in the courtroom,
or does he think the public has a right to see it step by step?
BANFIELD: That`s a good point. And you know, California televises lots of things, but they said, you know, in O.J., they said, you know, remarkably,
yes.
(CROSSTALK)
LALAMA: And then he regretted it. And he regretted it.
BANFIELD: Yes. Ito has regretted it ever since. This one is from Madalene Greco, she says, "When time -- when time for trial, if there is a
trial, the attorneys need to find out who these women and men are in love with this maniac, so they don`t get chosen on the jury." Syntax is funny
here, but I get your point. Rene Sandler, maybe you can help me with this. Yesterday, we showed a couple of really bizarre letters from people who`ve
seemingly fallen in love -- fallen in love with Chris Watts. And it`s on a jailhouse letter because we haven`t seen those, but it`s posted on, you
know, social media, saying how innocent he is and how much they love him. And we`ve talked to -- I`ve talked to your parents, et cetera. How, you
know, do you make sure that people like this don`t get on the jury?
SANDLER: In voir dire, which is a search for the truth, both sides and the judge get an opportunity to ask questions of each prospective juror to look
for any biases, any prejudices, and to see whether or not they can be fair and impartial. And that`s the process for selecting a jury, that`s the
only thing we can do.
BANFIELD: Got to watch it. Yes, got to watch the stealth jurors. OK. So, another big question, it`s great. We`re only eight weeks into this,
folks, and we`re getting questions like, oh, my God, how long is this going to take? We have the answer for you, next.
[19:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BANFIELD: Back live with Joseph Scott Morgan, certified death investigator, professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University. So,
your job is very complicated. Science always is. But I have this great question from a Facebook viewer, Joe. It`s from -- I love her name, by the
way -- it`s Aida Lovelace. Hey, I just love your name. But this is great question, "Why is this case taking so long when he confessed?" I`m going
to start the answer this way, and I want you to carry the ball after me, if you will, Joe. The police say he confessed, so you got to take that
because he might fight back, it might be supressed, and just tell me a little bit about the logistics of taking someone in a criminal trial on
felonies, including five first-degree murder charges in a death penalty state.
MORGAN: Oh, boy, I tell you what, it`s a nightmare. They`re going to handle this as if he hasn`t confessed, and they`re still trying to solve
this thing, nothing is taken for granted. Ashleigh, go back to the bags, just imagine those bags, times I don`t know how many. This is a very
involved case. They are taking so much evidence from this house, individually, and each thing has to be tested in a particular way. And
this is a huge strata to kind of work through. I`ve worked many multiple homicide cases that are very high-profile. And you treat these in a
particular way, because you know that all eyes are going to be upon you, not to mention everything that lawyers do in addition to this. So, you`ve
got these two things that are kind of bumping heads along the way here.
BANFIELD: Yes. Tom Verni, as an investigator, I`ve got to imagine that you dot every "i" you cross every "t" then go back and check the "i," you
check the "t" then you have a third set of eyes, do the same thing before you turn over this, you know, mountain of evidence to a prosecutor.
Because, again, the stakes are so high. This is a first-degree murder, it`s potential death penalty. And you guys are the first defense. Like
you`re the first guys, you know, to the scene. So, you`ve got to be meticulous.
VERNI: Yes, especially in a case like this, you don`t want to mess up a case like this. And as Joe have mentioned before, you know, again,
different departments have different procedures on how they collect evidence, and the transfer of evidence, too, has to be online, too, because
you have to be able to connect the dots from where that evidence is going. From the, you know, the office that`s collecting the evidence, you know, to
the lab, to the court, and what have you. So, there`s a lot of things that come into it, especially a high-profile case like this. And I`m sure
they`re aware of this. You know, I`m sure they`re going to cover all the basis.
BANFIELD: We`re only at the beginning, too. We`re eight weeks in. I sit down and have a glass of wine and get settled in for a long, long winter`s
nap. Thanks so much for watching. "HOW IT REALLY HAPPENED" with Hill Harper, starts right now.
END
