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Speculations Grows Defense Secretary Mattis Will Leave Position; Trump Won't Pledge Not to Shut Down Mueller Probe; Hillary Clinton: Husband's Affair Not Abuse of Power Because Lewinsky was An Adult; Trump on Climate Change as EPA Shakes Up Air Quality Panel. Aired 1:30-2p ET

Aired October 15, 2018 - 13:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:30:00] BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: They are strongly suggested to spend a certain percentage of their annual national budgets on defense. They don't pay into NATO. That's a very small administrative amount. They pay through their defense spending in their own nations. That is something Secretary Mattis is critically aware of.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: All right, Barbara, thank you very much.

Controversial words from the president as the Trump legal team works to answer questions submitted by Robert Mueller's legal team. The president refuses to pledge he won't get involved himself or shut down the probe all together.

And in the Democrats race to remove Trump to the White House, a new CNN poll reveals voters see Joe Biden leading the charge.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:35:24] BLITZER: No guarantee on letting the Mueller investigation play out. Even as attorneys work on written answers to the special counsel's questions, President Trump is refusing to pledge that he won't interfere with or even shut down the Russia investigation. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LESLIE STAHL, CORRESPONDENT, "60 MINUTES": Will you pledge, pledge that you will not shut down the Mueller investigation?

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, I don't pledge anything, but I have no intention of doing that. I think it's a very unfair investigation. Because there was no collusion of any kind.

(CROSSTALK)

STAHL: But you won't pledge?

TRUMP: I don't want to -- why should I pledge to you. If I pledge, I will pledge. I don't have to pledge to you.

(CROSSTALK)

TRUMP: Do you really think I would call Russia to help me with an election? Give me a break. They wouldn't be able to help me at all. Call Russia. It's so ridiculous.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Here with us right now, California Congressman Eric Swalwell is a Democrat and a member of the House Intelligence Committee and the Judiciary Committee.

Congressman, thanks so much for joining us.

When you heard that exchange, his refusal to deliver that pledge, what did you think?

REP. ERIC SWALWELL, (D), CALIFORNIA: I didn't hear an innocent man. I heard somebody who has been unwilling to sit down with Bob Mueller who has continued to obstruct and tamper with witnesses in the way he dangled pardons and the way he talked about the investigation while jurors have deliberated. He could wind it up by sit think down with Bob Mueller and that's not what he wants to do.

BLITZER: He is only answering written fez for all practical purposes. After he took office, and allegations of obstruction, he is not answering questions on that.

SWALWELL: That's very telling. That's clear whether it was his NBC interview with Lester Holt, where he admitted to firing James Comey to his threats every day against Jeff Sessions, that he has committed obstructions. Bob Mueller has a job to do but a new Congress also will conduct investigations that have not been looked into of this president that Republicans have been unwilling to.

BLITZER: You're already assuming the Democrats --

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: -- the majority of the new Congress.

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: We have three weeks to go.

SWALWELL: Yes.

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: The president was asked also about his relationship with various world leaders. Specifically, Vladimir Putin and Kim Jong-Un. Listen to this exchange.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STAHL: Why do you love that guy?

TRUMP: Look, look. I get along with him, OK?

(CROSSTALK)

STAHL: You love him.

TRUMP: That's a figure of speech.

STAHL: It's like an embrace.

TRUMP: Let it be an embrace. Let it be whatever it is --

(CROSSTALK)

STAHL: He's a bad guy.

TRUMP: Look, let it be whatever it is. I get along with him really well. I have a good energy with him. I have a good chemistry with him.

STAHL: Do you agree that Vladimir Putin is involved in assassinations, in poisonings.

TRUMP: Probably he is. Probably.

STAHL: Probably?

TRUMP: But I really on them. It's not in our country.

STAHAL: Then why not -- they shouldn't do this and this is a terrible thing.

(CROSSTALK)

TRUMP: Of course, they shouldn't do it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: He makes a point that it didn't happen on U.S. soil.

SWALWELL: The U.S. is at its safest in the world, the most orderly when we are the moral beacon. That light has been extinguished with this president. We've seen just over the last two years the North Korean leader having a relative kill and we've seen Vladimir Putin's forces conduct a killing in Great Britain and now we're seeing the Saudis allegedly conducting the killing in Turkey. It's an operating environment that the countries see they have because there's no moral authority in the world. That is very concerning. And I think more will come unless the United States asserts itself and starts to step up.

BLITZER: Very quickly on the disappearance of the Saudi journalist, Jamal Khashoggi, the president said it could have been rogue killers.

SWALWELL: A gain, it could have been China or a guy on his couch in New Jersey. That's it is how he talked about Russia's interference campaign. He very, I would say, deftly, is able to divert attention whenever one of his allies or himself is accused. I think the president should give the Saudis a 24-hour deadline to produce this journalist or put in place very steep sanctions.

BLITZER: Let's talk politics. Look at the new CNN poll of possible Democratic candidates, choice for Democratic presidential nominees for 202, Joe Biden, the former vice president, 33 percent. It goes down to Bernie Sanders, Kamala Harris, Elizabeth Warren, Cory Booker and John Kerry. Biden and Sanders, these two front runners on the Democratic side are 75 and 77 years old. What do you say?

[13:40:09] SWALWELL: It's an exciting field. You will see a lot of talent displayed. It may break down generationally. Voters will have a choice and do they want to go backward or forward? Democrats are the best nominees and have always been when we go forward, whether Barack Obama, President Clinton, Jimmy Carter, JFK. We do best when we look forward. That's where the primary field is.

BLITZER: What did you think of Elizabeth Warren releasing her DNA test?

SWALWELL: It's unfortunate that she had to do that. There was no evidence she was not Native American. But I'm glad she stood up and will not be bullied by the president. Facts don't matter to him. He said he would give her a million dollars if she proved it. We will see that throughout this campaign.

BLITZER: You visited Iowa earlier in the year. Are you thinking about it?

SWALWELL: I am answering it, Wolf. I want to get through the midterms. My wife is due in a couple of days with a baby girl. I want to get through a full term. And I'll think about the long-term. But I think new energy, new ideas and a new confidence in America is needed. That's why I'm considering it.

BLITZER: Eric Swalwell, thanks very much.

SWALWELL: Thanks very much.

BLITZER: See you Iowa and New Hampshire and all the cool places.

Coming up, did Hillary Clinton just give Republicans a political boost with just weeks to go until the midterms?

And right now, in Istanbul, a Turkish team of investigators is in the consulate. Looking at live pictures. They are looking for answers around the disappearance of the journalist, Jamal Khashoggi.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:46:09] BLITZER: In a new interview, Hillary Clinton comes to the defense of her husband, Bill Clinton, over his affair with then White House intern, Monica Lewinsky, while he was president of the United States. Hillary Clinton said she doesn't consider the affair an abuse of power.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED CORRESPONDENT: In retrospect, do you think bill should have resigned in the wake of the Monica Lewinsky scandal.

HILLARY CLINTON, (D), FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE & FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDASTE: Absolutely not.

UNIDENTIFIED CORRESPONDENT: It wasn't an abuse of power?

CLINTON: No, no.

UNIDENTIIED CORRESPONDENT; There are people who look at the incidents of the '90s and say a president of the United States cannot have a consensual relationship with an intern. The power imbalance --

(CROSSTALK)

CLINTON: Who was an adult. But let me ask you this. Where is the investigation of the current incumbent?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: "New York Times" White House reporter, Julie Hirschfeld Davis is back with us, and CNN legal analyst and civil rights attorney, Areva Martin.

What do you think of her answer in this "Me Too" era.

AREVA MARTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I think she is right. What happened between Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky was not sexual assault, but where I disagree slightly with Secretary Clinton is the power issue. Clearly there was an imbalance of power. We don't know if there was an abuse of power. From what I read from what Monica Lewinsky said, she said it was a consensual relationship between two adults. What is important to note with the "Me Too" movement, this is about women having access to equality in a workplace, being in workplaces that are safe. It doesn't mean women can't have consensual relationships in the workplace. Anyone who is standing up for "Me Too" doesn't say we should do away with women from having consensual relationships. Power is important issue, particularly when you are talking about the president and an intern.

BLITZER: Hillary Clinton is getting a lot of criticism for those remarks. Monica Lewinsky was a 22-year-old intern. Legally, she is an adult and it was consensual. She wanted this. He wanted it. The point being, he is president of the United States and she is a 22- year-old intern.

JULIE HISCHFELD DAVIS, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: No question. And so much of the "Me Too" movement and what we have seen emerge from the revelations that we learned about over the last couple of years or last year and a half is about women going back and reassessing things they have been involved in in relationships they were in and deciding, while it may have seemed consensual at the time, it was something that was inappropriate and they felt taken advantage of. For her to shut that down and say it was an abuse of power, it was a striking thing for her to say. Probably was at odds with what so many women are who are reckoning with the "Me Too" movement are thinking. Very much at odds with the Democratic base is right now and where Democrats as a party want to see the up surge around the elections. They think there's a real opportunity to capitalize around women being angry and the power dynamics and the power they think is wrong, that the president represents and the Brett Kavanaugh confirmation battle represented to them, and having a prominent Democratic woman come forward and saying you can't look at this power dynamic and say this was inappropriate or that in retrospect it wasn't the right thing. That's at odds with what's going on in the grass roots.

MARTIN: I don't think Hillary Clinton would deny there was an imbalance of power between the president and the intern. But one thing Democrats shouldn't do is play into this GOP narrative that we should disavow what Bill Clinton did, but not talk about what Donald Trump is doing. And that's what Hillary Clinton did. We can talk about what Bill Clinton did in the 90s, but let's talk about what Donald Trump is going currently. All the women who have come forward and made accusations against him, we. Don't see the same kind of movement happening in the Republican base to cause Donald Trump to resign from office. We don't see GOP Senators coming forward to say that his conduct, which we now know has been pretty egregious leading up to his election to the presidency, that that should be disqualifying, for him, as president of the United States. So I think the Democrats have to stay focused on what the issue is. And the issue is winning the midterm elections in 2018, winning the White House in 20, and, you're not going to find a bigger advocate for the "Me Too" movement than I am. But I do think that we have to respect the difference between sexual assault and consensual relationships. We should talk about the imbalance of power, but we should absolutely distinguish between those relationships that are consensual and those that are not.

[13:50:46] BLITZER: A lot of Democrats are wondering, is Hillary Clinton, with three weeks to go in the midterms, an asset or a liability to fellow Democrats?

HIRSHFELD DAVIS: Well, it's a good question. I think having her come forward in this context, it has a lot of Democrats on edge. I don't think that they think that that's next the context in which they would like to see her. I notice that we don't see Bill Clinton out campaigning for Democratic candidates. You know, there's a competitive race in Arkansas. We don't see him being called upon to participate in that. And so I think for a lot of Democrats, they want to be looking forward. They want to be presenting an alternative that's something different from Donald Trump and that's something different from Hillary Clinton, because, you know, to Democrats, they need to see the energy they have now, in their minds, in order to try to take back one House of Congress or both Houses.

BLITZER: Yes.

Julia and Areva, thank you guys, very, very much. Some important issues to discuss.

Coming up, President Trump talks climate change, claiming it will change back again but may not be tied to human behavior.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:56:24] BLITZER: Does the president of the United States believe in the validity of climate change? The past several years, he's tweeted out skepticism dozens of times, including this tweet, where he said, and I'm quoting now, "The concept of global warming was created by and for the Chinese in order to make U.S. manufacturing non- competitive."

But in an interview with "60 Minutes" that aired last night, he expressed a different view. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I don't think it's a hoax. I think there's probably a difference, but I don't know that it's man-made. I'm not denying climate change. But it could have well gone back. You know, we're talking about over --

(CROSSTALK)

STAHL: Well, that's denying it.

TRUMP: We're talking about over millions of years. They say that we had hurricanes that are far worse than what we just had that.

STAHL: Who says that? "They say."

(CROSSTALK)

TRUMP: People say that.

STAHL: What about the scientists who say it's worse than ever?

TRUMP: You'd have to show me the scientists, because they have a very big political agenda.

STAHL: I can't bring them in.

TRUMP: Scientists also have a political agenda.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Those comments come as the acting EPA administrator has added five new members to its air quality advisory panel, replacing the current members, and also has eliminated two key environmental committees.

Our Rene Marsh has been working this story for us.

Rene, what could the impact of these changes really result in?

RENE MARSH, CNN AVIATION & GOVERNMENT REGULATION CORRESPONDENT: Well, we heard the president being pressed there about climate change and how he can deny whether they contribute to those more severe storms, like what we saw in Florida. And he says, show me the scientists. Of course, he's saying all of this as his administration continues to dismiss scientists from agencies like the EPA, as well as scientific advisory boards. Just recently, CNN, we are reporting, that the EPA released seven academic scientists on an advisory board that was set to advise the EPA on air quality standards, while doing that in that same week, 20 scientists received dismissal e-mails. The EPA nixed two other scientific panels. Those panels were going to be looking at the health impacts of air pollution. So those are all very critical. And oftentimes very independent panels, advising the EPA on the best science out there, when they're creating their regulations, and how it will impact you and I. The air that we breathe.

And so I just spoke with one of the scientists who was dismissed, and he says, why does this matter? It matters because it gives the sense, at least in his eyes, that this administration is trying to take scientists away from the table. They are trying to get rid of scientists' input and replacing these panels with people who may be more industry friendly, and they're just -- they think it could be problematic if, if, we are seeing actions by this administration in which they are given more thought to the economics of these regulations as opposed to public health issues.

But, again, those comments that you just heard there from the president, coming as we are continuing to see changes at the EPA, including the dismissal of scientists on these very critical panels.

BLITZER: We'll continue to -- I'm sure the president will continue to be asked lots of questions about something that he once says was a Chinese hoax, designed to get the U.S. to spend a lot of money, uselessly, he would say, in order to help China. But now he's got a little different perspective.

MARSH: Changing his tune, slightly.

BLITZER: Rene, thank you very much.

MARSH: Sure.

BLITZER: Just ahead, we'll have more on Senator Elizabeth Warren. The Democrat strikes back. Releases DNA test results that prove her Native American heritage. You're going to hear how the president responded.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)