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Pompeo Meets with Saudi King Over Journalist's Disappearance; Social Media Mocks White House Painting of Trump with Past GOP Presidents. Aired 7-7:30a ET

Aired October 16, 2018 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Saudis got a problem. They've got a lot they need to explain.

[07:00:11] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The part of the story that this was an absolutely rogue operation is not believable.

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We're working very close with Saudi Arabia to figure out what happened.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is going to have lasting damage to the foreign policy of the Trump administration. Who goes into a consulate with a bone saw?

TRUMP: She owes the country an apology. What's the percentage, 1/1,000th?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Republicans are moving the goal post. First she had no ancestry. Now she doesn't have enough ancestry.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She's the one who made this an issue first.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think it's best if we move on and recognize this this is just another episode that was beneath the president.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY with Alisyn Camerota and John Berman.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to your NEW DAY. We have breaking news right now.

As we speak Secretary of State Mike Pompeo is meeting with Saudi Arabia's crown prince in Riyadh. This is -- these are pictures from earlier of him meeting with the king.

Sources tell CNN that the Saudi government is prepared to admit that journalist Jamal Khashoggi was killed, but they'll say it was during an interrogation gone wrong inside their consulate in Istanbul. That's very different from their denials from two weeks ago. World leaders are now demanding answers. But President Trump seems to

be giving cover for the kingdom, suggesting perhaps rogue killers could be responsible.

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DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The king firmly denied any knowledge of it. He didn't really know, maybe -- I don't want to get into his mind, but it sounded to me like maybe these could have been rogue killers. Who knows?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Much more on that that coming up.

As of this minute, we are three weeks away from the midterm elections. That's right, set your watches. Exactly three weeks from right now, polls will be open in some states.

So how are political leaders from both parties dealing with this? They're arguing over whether the president owes Elizabeth Warren a million dollars.

This has to do with her DNA test that she says shows she has Native American ancestry. So exactly who does this debate help?

Let's bring in CNN political analyst David Gregory; CNN counterterrorism analyst Phil Mudd; and A.B. Stoddard, associate editor and columnist for RealClearPolitics.

Mudd, I want to start with you on what we are hearing from the Saudis. An interrogation gone wrong, torture gone wrong. That's their best explanation here. So I have two questions for you: A, is it plausible? B, is it in any way exculpatory?

PHIL MUDD, CNN COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: It's plausible to me. I mean, if you look at the number of people who went into the country from Saudi Arabia, if you look at the composition of that group, evidently, there are people with a medical background in there, I can only draw the conclusion that they expected a pretty harsh interrogation. I can't believe that they went in anticipating they would murder him.

I wonder if it was also a rendition gone awry. That is, they expected to interrogate him and bring him back to the kingdom. So I think that explanation is plausible.

You still have to go into this, John, with the expectation that they sent the Saudi team in to beat the guy up, to electrocute him. I don't know what they did with him, but that was not an interview from the start. So you have basic question for the Saudis: why did you do that?

It's not exculpatory. They've got to pay a price here.

CAMEROTA: Phil, who brings an autopsy expert to an interrogation? Who brings a bone saw to an interrogation?

MUDD: No, I think that's true, Alisyn. If you're asking me for what I think happened, I suspect that they anticipated killing him all along.

But if you're going to ask me, based on 25 years of looking at intelligence mistake after intelligence mistake, whether I'm 100 percent certain that they anticipated killing him, because there's billions of dollars of arms sales on the line, I'm not certain. But I do believe that's what happened. I think they anticipated killing him.

BERMAN: And then it gets to the issue of could it have ever happened, even sending that team in with all that equipment, even if they didn't anticipate killing him, without the crown prince and the regime knowing. That's hard to believe.

And A.B., we had Marco Rubio on a little while ago, talking about the implications of this and what the United States should do about it. He thinks the Senate will step in if the president doesn't, because he thinks it's a serious issue. Listen to what he said.

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SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R), FLORIDA: There isn't enough money in the world to purchase back our credibility on human rights and -- and the way nations should conduct themselves. And we lose our credibility and our moral standing to criticize Putin for murdering people, Assad for murdering people, Maduro in Venezuela for murdering people. We can't say anything about that if we allow Saudi Arabia to do it; and all we do is a diplomatic slap on the wrist.

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BERMAN: He's sort of speaking in the plus perfect sense, like a future tens there, but has it already happened? Have we already lost credibility here?

A.B. STODDARD, ASSOCIATE EDITOR/COLUMNIST, REALCLEARPOLITICS: First of all, he's right, but that's the problem, is that autocrats around the world are watching this and believe that when they watch President Trump in a "60 Minutes" interview basically say, "Whatever it takes to get there." She's pressing him on Chairman Kim and everything else he's doing to brutalize his people in the North Korean regime. And he says whatever it takes, because it's all about the ends and not the means.

And that basically, he was emphatic that American values are not going to get in his way of a relationship with President Putin and Chairman Kim and their Saudi royal family. He made that implicitly clear on Sunday night, and the world is watching.

[07:05:13] And dictators around the world know that they have -- that unless we respond very firmly to this, and it doesn't appear yet that the president is going to, that they have free rein. And that is really a major, major shift and it's already under way if there -- if people like this are acting in such a brazen manner.

And he's said the words "severe punishment," but taking an arms deal, which isn't even really an arms deal -- those purchases are not technically pending -- off the table and taking any kind of sanctions off the table leaves you with no punishment.

DAVID GREGORY, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: The complication here is that for any president, is that Saudi Arabia is so important in any broader Middle East strategy, especially when you're trying to counter the influence, the deadly influence, of Iran in the region. So that is there. Yes, there are arms sales, although it's unseemly to be bringing those up in the context of the loss of a human life.

But I think this question of why did it take a couple weeks for them to come up with this story? Why weren't they more forthcoming? And I think the critical question, too, is why is it that they felt they could get away with something this brazen?

Even if it is a plausible scenario that they went there to either render him back to Saudi Arabia, interrogate Khashoggi. But why do you think that you could get away with something so brazen unless you felt that -- that you could? And that sense of confidence on the kingdom's part is what I would be deeply troubled by if I was this administration.

CAMEROTA: So Phil, what's the answer? You worked with the Saudi government, as we understand it --

MUDD: Yes.

CAMEROTA: -- from 2010 through 2011. What's the answer to why they feel they could act in such a brazen fashion?

MUDD: Well a couple reasons. No. 1, when the king speaks, he's the king. I lived in Saudi Arabia. You can't even talk about the king's health in the car with a friend.

So you've got the crown prince, who I presume said, "Hey, go work on this guy," because the crown prince is worried about opposition. The king's word always goes. The crown prince's word always goes.

The other thing I'd say, in terms of the brazenness of this, is a surprise to me is not that it happened. It's that it happened in Turkey. If you look at squelching opposition in Saudi Arabia that happens all the time. So I think there's both a history of trying to push back on opposition -- I'm not saying murder him -- but push back on him and arrest him for various reasons that aren't quite legal. And then the crown prince's word. And I'm sure people said, "I'm going to go do whatever he says."

BERMAN: I have another plausible explanation about why they thought they could get away with it. It's because President Trump will believe you. President Trump will believe any explanation you give, because we've seen that he is very susceptible to believing these brutal dictators and their excuses. Listen.

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TRUMP: I just spoke with the king of Saudi Arabia, who denies any knowledge of what took place.

I have great confidence in my intelligence people, but I will tell you that president Putin was extremely strong and powerful in his denial today.

Let me just tell you, Roy Moore denies it, that's all I can say, he denies it. And by the way, he totally denies it.

Manafort has totally denied it. He denied it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Total denials, A.B., seem to really carry a lot of weight with President Trump, no matter what the evidence.

STODDARD: Look, he's made very clear from when this story broke that this is a transactional relationship, that he has an arms deal on the table, that he doesn't want to strain this relationship that he and his son-in-law have invested so much in. Maybe that is why --

CAMEROTA: He -- look, I understand, why doesn't he just say, "I'm sorry, we have bigger fish to fry, and we just can't let the gruesome death of one journalist get in the way." Why does he always say that he believes Putin and he believes Kim Jong-un?

STODDARD: Because he wants to back them up, but it's a way of also saying to senator Rubio and others who are putting pressure, a bipartisan group of senators on Capitol Hill putting pressure on the administration to take a firmer stance saying, "Well, they really have told me that -- that they deny it and they didn't know anything about it."

At the same time, he dispatches the secretary of state to sort of assuage their concerns and say, "Look, I believe the denials, but I'm also taking action."

President Trump is often working on two planes, and there's one hand and another hand. It's kind of one of the things he does best.

GREGORY: Well, he's also -- he's such a loose talker. I mean, he just says what pops into his mind, not thinking that as the president of the United States, you don't want to replay this notion that there were rogue killers like he's, you know, O.J. Simpson talking about tracking down the real killers in that murder trial. I mean, it -- it's just absurd.

And then later in the day, he was much more measured when people talked to him and said, "No, this is where we are."

And so the problem is that people are listening to the president around the world. And I think for a president who has said disingenuously, in my judgment, when he talks about the journalist being the enemy of the people, this is actually a time when an American leader has to stand up and say, "This was a journalist working for the 'Washington Post' in America with a green card. This will not stand" if he wants to actually stand up for some of the core democratic freedoms that he seems to undercut with loose language and so many other circumstances.

BERMAN: How is this not weakness? How is it not weakness when these dictators know that they will get a sympathetic ear in President Trump? When Crown Prince Mohammad bin Salman knows that he can give this explanation, carry out this botched rendition with no repercussions? President Trump may not like the word "weakness," Phil, but it does seem to me that that's what it is.

MUDD: Well, heck, I mean, you look at what president has done before. Let's cut to the chase. The president says he's got a love affair going with Kim Jong-un, who sent home an American citizen to die. The president said he has a great relationship with Putin, who's sitting there in Syrian air fields while they use chemical weapons against their own people.

I think it is a sign of weakness for the American people, but there's a different perspective, John. These dictators are looking at the president and saying, "Hey, maybe I can cut a deal with this guy, and he'll turn a blind eye to what I do domestically on human rights issues, because he just doesn't care."

GREGORY: Let's all remember the history, our sad history with -- with capitulating to the Saudis. Fifteen of the 19 hijackers on 9/11 were Saudis. There's a lot of allowances that have been made that cuts across numerous administrations in order to keep a relationship that's important for the United States' strategic interests in the Middle East.

CAMEROTA: That's a great point, David, because before Donald Trump became president, A.B., he was vociferously opposed to granting the Saudis much. I mean, he talked about the hijackers coming from Saudi Arabia. He talked about how Saudi Arabia was not a friend to the U.S.

But somehow Jared's relationship with the crown prince and Jared being able to color what the president's policy is in the Middle East has changed all of that.

STODDARD: It's only been a few days since I said at our rock band (Ph), "There's a tweet for that." We know how critical he has been of other previous presidents and their policies.

At the same time, he has his own decades-long history of business with the Saudi royal family. He steeps in it, and as you mentioned, his son Jared has invested everything secretly around the national security apparatus at least in the beginning in this relationship with the crown prince.

And as David pointed out, it is necessary to have this relationship to -- for a larger strategy within the Middle East. The question is whether or not they're getting played and, as you point out, the president continues to sort of believe whatever they say and then go out and test out their lines about rogue killers. The fact that the Saudis are, quote, "preparing a statement," but it

still could change is the most outrageous, pathetic -- I just don't believe that the senators who have stood up on this issue are going to buy this explanation. And I still think that we're in the same place we're in.

CAMEROTA: I heard Marco Rubio saying he's not.

GREGORY: They've been preparing to change the statement for the past 12 to 14 hours? I mean, that is ridiculous.

While I have you here, let me ask you about Elizabeth Warren, David Gregory. We're now on day two of this "I took a DNA test, and I have Native American ancestry rollout." Who's winning this rollout? Has it been a winning rollout for her, David?

GREGORY: No, I mean, look, I think there's -- I don't know who's winning. I think it's problematic on both sides. I think the whole episode with him using the slur "Pocahontas" has been demeaning to him.

I also think there are still questions that she's -- hasn't answered. Why did she change her heritage when she worked at Harvard Law School, when she worked at Penn, from white to Native American? It's distant ancestry.

I think we're getting a real window not into the midterm race, into 2020. How as a candidate, she'll prepare to take on Donald Trump.

Remember, President Obama releasing his birth certificate after what was advanced, the birtherism of Donald Trump. We're getting a sense of how she will try to combat him. They'll go back and forth and see where it lands.

CAMEROTA: All right, everybody, thank you very much. Phil, David, A.B., great to have you here in studio.

So ahead on NEW DAY, we will talk with Senator Ben Sasse about how the U.S. should respond to the growing international crisis over the death of Khashoggi.

BERMAN: What can history teach us about what's going on here in the United States, the current political climate, perhaps how the United States is perceived around the world? What can the president learn from his predecessors?

Well, if one person knows the answer to this, it's Doris Kearns- Goodwin, one of the world's leading presidential historians if not the, and she joins us next.

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[07:18:49] BERMAN: In this tumultuous time in U.S. politics, presidential historian Doris Kearns Goodwin reminds us how four presidents -- Abraham Lincoln, Theodore Roosevelt, Franklin Roosevelt and Lyndon Johnson -- each overcame their own personal crises. Her book is called "Leadership in Turbulent Times." She joins us now.

Doris, great to have you here.

DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN, PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Thank you.

BERMAN: I want to start with something unusual. I want to put up the picture that was behind President Trump for part of the interview with Leslie Stahl. It was this painting in there, and you can see this depiction of President Trump sitting at a table surrounded by --

CAMEROTA: Other presidents.

BERMAN: -- Republican presidents largely -- in fact, exclusively there, but it's fascinating to see, Doris. What do you make of it when you look at that picture? What do you think?

GOODWIN: What you see is that he's actually enjoying himself, or it seems for a moment. Lincoln is talking to him, possibly. Teddy is looking bemused behind him. And those are the two guys, if we could bring him back, that I could think, the best advice possible.

I mean, Teddy would tell him that the era he faced, the industrial era, was much like the problems that Trump is facing now. You had a gap between the rich and the poor. You had people in the rural areas not feeling good about people in the cities. You had a lot of immigration coming in abroad.

And Teddy would say the important thing is satisfy both sides. Don't think of it as a deal where only one side wins. Once you get in, you've got to expand your base. You go around the country, as Teddy did in the whistle stop tour, stopping in places where he lost as well as places that he won. And he wanted a square deal for the rich and the poor, the capitalist and the wage worker. It's not a deal when just one side one. He could tell them that.

Lincoln could say reconcile your problems, reconcile these divisions. This is what's tearing our country apart. Don't send these tweets out. I have hot letters where I'd just pretend I'm sending something and then cool down psychologically and never need to send it.

God, I'd love to live that -- I'd love to hear that conversation.

CAMEROTA: My gosh. That is a historian's dream. What do you think about Lincoln there being upstaged by President Trump? Lincoln, we only see him from behind. You don't even see his face or his head. How do we think of that placement?

GOODWIN: I think somehow that's the one person I hope President Trump cannot compare himself to. I mean, he may have some of that desire to be one of those characters. I mean, he said he's the most successful president ever, but that didn't win the war, end slavery, you know, and save the union.

Even like LBJ, when you think about what LBJ did in those first 18 months: Medicare, Medicaid, aid to education, civil rights, voting rights. I mean, where is humility? Humility is such an important quality in a

president. And certainly, Lincoln had that in spades. I mean, it doesn't mean you're humble. It means you know you have limitations and you can acknowledge your errors and learn. You grow in office as a result.

BERMAN: President Trump, in this interview with Leslie Stahl, was asked what his biggest failure was, and he really couldn't come up with one. He basically said, "That I didn't do NAFTA sooner."

You talk about you look for, I think, a common thread between these four presidents that you write about, and one of the common threads you find is empathy. Talk about that.

GOODWIN: I really think it's the most important quality in a leader. It means that you can understand other people's points of view.

In fact, Teddy Roosevelt said that the way democracy would fail would be if people in other regions, sections and religions and parties see each other as the other rather than as fellow citizens, fellow human beings.

Lincoln was born with empathy. When he saw a little turtle being used by other little kids to put hot coals on the turtle's back and make them wriggle, he went up and said, "This is wrong." He could feel the pain of the turtle.

Teddy Roosevelt developed empathy. He didn't have it at first. He comes from a privileged background, but he goes into tenements and he sees what life is like for those people. He's a police commissioner. He walks the streets at night. And suddenly, he said he begins to feel consciously that he wants to help those people do something.

And FDR developed, I think, much more empathy after his polio. He suddenly was close to other people to whom fate had dealt an unkind hand.

Without empathy, you can't bring people together. You can't understand other people in a large-scale democracy. And I don't see that so far in President Trump. It's the one big missing thing. You keep hoping it's going to come.

There are moments in the hurricanes where he seems to show it, and then he mocks Dr. Ford instead of just saying, "I'm triumphant. I won, and reconciling and reaching out." You just keep waiting and waiting.

CAMEROTA: What do you think is President Trump's leadership style? What defines it to you?

GOODWIN: I think what he's been very successful at is putting himself in the middle of everybody's conversation at every moment. I mean, he's got that sense of almost a circus following him. And he's been able to master that new world of Twitter in a way that nobody had before. Breaks through all the cable worlds. He makes news everywhere he goes. He's got that fighting spirit. He seems to have a lot of energy when

he's out there.

But the question is, is he moving people together? Is he expanding the base? He's kept the base that he won with, but once you govern, you have to expand your base. You have to make people who didn't want you to be in there. Be glad that you're in there, and that approval rating has not gone up.

BERMAN: He hasn't tried. I mean, I don't think he has tried to do that.

But on the issue of empathy -- and I was trying to think about this last night -- he has a connection with his base. If you look at white working-class voters in some of these places in the country, some of these manufacturing belt areas that haven't done well over the last few years, there's a connection there, but I don't know if that's empathy.

GOODWIN: Well, he's made them feel that he's on their side, which is an important thing that a politician can do. You know, "I'm fighting for you."

Now, whether the programs that he's enacted really are going to help them or not is another question, but they feel so still. There's something that I think he's connecting to their anger. He's connecting to their anxiety. He's connecting to go their feeling that they're different from the elites. Somehow, there's no question you have to give him that. He's made a connection.

But whether it's really understanding them and wanting to make their lives better or whether it's just "We're standing together against these reporters, against these elites, all these other people that we don't like."

CAMEROTA: What about his believing in some might call it gullibility, but there might be something else at play here. Putin, believing Kim Jong-un, believing the king of Saudi Arabia, seeming to believe them over U.S. intelligence agencies. Is that a leader? Is that a leadership quality? What's going on there?

GOODWIN: I mean, it's almost a sense of, "I can be in a room with somebody. I can make them my friend." And that forgets that ideology is behind that, culture is behind that. Their own intelligence agencies are behind that. You're not ever meeting a person one-on- one. It would be so much easier if these world leaders could just get together and become friends, but there's no way that happens.

[07:25:09] CAMEROTA: I mean, that seems to be his strategy. He thinks that, that if they -- "Look, I've become friends with Kim Jong- un. He's sending me love letters. Problem solved." But the intelligence agencies know that there is a deeper problem than that.

GOODWIN: I mean, that's where history comes in. Our best presidents read histories of other presidents, and you learn from them. You learn what kinds of problems they had. Like whenever FDR had to deal with Stalin. You can't deal with somebody where there's a whole other ideology underneath. He learns that. And you could learn that from him. I just wish he would read about other presidents. I wish they'd join a club. I really do. They could tell him a lot if they could just come back right now.

BERMAN: The best presidents read, period. Whether or not he reads about past presidents, I would say --

CAMEROTA: Maybe a book club.

BERMAN: I would take anything.

GOODWIN: In fact, one of the things that Teddy Roosevelt said is that the reason you read so much is as a leader, you need to know about human nature. How do people react. And you get that best from poetry and prose and drama. Lincoln read all the time. Whenever they had a moment, they're upstairs reading.

They also had a self-deprecating sense of humor. I so wish we could see that in the president.

BERMAN: Which one of these guys. You talk about Teddy Roosevelt, Franklin Roosevelt, Lyndon Johnson and Abraham Lincoln. Which one would be the toughest match, or the biggest match.

GOODWIN: I think there's no question. I'd bring back Teddy Roosevelt today, mainly because he could speak in that language of the Twitter world. You know, speak softly and carry a big stick. Don't hit until you have to, and then hit hard. He was a fighter. He also could occupy center stage. And he loved being in the center of the stage.

BERMAN: The arena, literally.

GOODWIN: In the arena, but he also -- they said he wanted to be the baby at the baptism and the bride at the wedding and the corpse at the funeral. And he captured the center stage.

But he would say, as I said, he would say a deal has to be good for both sides. And he also was very clear about his language having to be believable by the people. He wouldn't say things that he could be undone by, because he knew if you say something your word is your bond.

CAMEROTA: Doris, give us the big picture here. Are we in unprecedented times? Has history ever seen anything like these two years and like the leadership style of President Trump?

GOODWIN: Well, we've certainly seen divisive times. I mean, I think about the 1850s when we think about how we have alternative facts right now. They had alternative facts in the 1850s. You only read your own party's newspaper.

And you might read about Lincoln at a debate doing great in your party's newspaper, the Republican newspaper, carried off in triumph. Then you read about it in the Democratic paper, he falls on the floor, and they drag him out on the floor. You're not seeing the same world. But that was the problem. The country and the culture was splitting apart.

CAMEROTA: How did we come out of that?

GOODWIN: We end up in a civil war, and then we finally get reconciliation when you have a leader like Lincoln who, in a moment of triumph, says the south and the north were in this together. We're going to get out of this together.

So there's a sense in which we are in a divisive time right now. People see each other as the other. We need a leader who's going to make us feel together as Americans, as citizens. And we've done it before. I mean, I'm really not pessimistic about it. We've been through much worse times. The depression was much worse. World War II was worse. The Civil War was worse.

But we had leaders, and we had citizens who are active. The key right now is that citizens can't sit around waiting for the leader to come. They've got to become active. They've got to figure out how to awaken themselves and not be spectators anymore.

All the changes in our society have come from the citizens. Anti- slavery movement, the women's movement, the environmental movement. All my guys needed those -- my guys -- they need those citizen activism to make things work.

BERMAN: You're the only person that could say that these four presidents are your guys. Heck of a four guys to hang out with.

Very small question. Beto O'Rourke, there are people that are Democrats who say, "Hey, you have a guy who's a short-term member of Congress, may lose a Senate bid, but he can vault his way to the presidency." That looks like Abraham Lincoln.

GOODWIN: Well, what he seems to be able to do is tell stories. I think all of my leaders were able to tell stories. When he talks to the people, he's telling them where they came from, where we are now, where we're going. He's going around to all the counties in Texas, and he seems to have a joy in the politics right now.

And there's a -- there's a momentum behind -- I was in Texas, and everybody kept giving me these buttons of his. So he struck a chord. We have to see.

I mean, Lincoln was Lincoln without a lot of experience. Once he got into the presidency, he grew in that job. We'll have to wait and see if he becomes president. If he could still be Lincoln, boy, we would be lucky.

BERMAN: Doris Kearns Goodwin, great to have you. Go, Red Sox.

GOODWIN: Yes, I know.

CAMEROTA: Thanks so much for being here.

BERMAN: Priorities.

CAMEROTA: The book again, "Leadership in Turbulent Times."

BERMAN: Thanks so much.

CAMEROTA: Great read. Thank you.

BERMAN: Midterm elections.

CAMEROTA: I've heard of them.

BERMAN: Just three weeks away. So how could Latino voters affect the results here? Counterintuitive. You may not be expecting what Harry Enten is about to tell you. There is something about Harry. That's next.

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