Return to Transcripts main page

New Day

Secretary of State Mike Pompeo Speaks with Saudi Arabian Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman about Death of "Washington Post" Journalist in Saudi Arabian Consulate; Saudi's Say Khashoggi's Death Was An Interrogation Gon Wrong; Schlapp Says We Must Continue To Push The Middle East. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired October 16, 2018 - 8:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00] JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: And I want you to look at the smiles here. Look at the body language. Look at the demeanors. They're talking about the apparent murder and dismemberment of a "Washington Post" journalist.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Now, sources tell CNN that the Saudi government is prepared to admit that journalist Jamal Khashoggi was killed during an interrogation gone wrong is what they will say happened inside that consulate in Istanbul. That is a shift from their original claim that Khashoggi left the consulate on his own unharmed. President Trump seems willing to believe that explanation and even promote it by suggesting rogue killers might be responsible.

So let's bring in CNN chief international correspondent Clarissa Ward live from Ankara along with CNN political analyst David Gregory and former U.S. ambassador to Saudi Arabia Robert Jordan. It's wonderful to have all of you. Clarissa, in terms of your reporting about what the kingdom might be saying to Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, what do their smiles tell you this morning?

CLARISSA WARD, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I have to tell you, Alisyn, that these smiles are a little bit baffling, because no matter how harm the relationship, one would think, based on the information that we have been learning, that Saudi Arabia is poised to take responsibility, to say that it did, in fact, kill Jamal Khashoggi, even if it was an accidental killing, even if the purpose of the operation was not to kill him but just to rendition him back to Saudi Arabia. Surely this raises serious questions about the leadership in Saudi Arabia and about the cozy relationship with the U.S.

Looking at those pictures of Secretary of State Mike Pompeo and Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman smiling together, seemingly relaxed and in good spirits, one has to ask if this is the appropriate tone to strike given the seriousness of what's on the table here. We expected, certainly, to see a much more muted tone, a much more tough talk potentially from Pompeo, insisting on that investigation. But so far it seems to be convivial, which is confusing, to say the least.

BERMAN: Ambassador Jordan, take us inside that room. I know diplomacy can be delicate, diplomatic can be difficult. Oftentimes you have to shake hands and meet with people in controversial situations, but that picture is fairly revealing.

ROBERT JORDAN, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO SAUDI ARABIA: Well, I wouldn't read too much into it. I think there is every likelihood that Pompeo is delivering a very serious message in private. The relations with the Saudis have almost always been conducted in private, and there is very little public display of what our interactions are. But hopefully, he is conveying to this crown prince enough is enough. And this is part of a pattern that I think he needs to address, not simply this terrible assassination of Jamal Khashoggi, but the war in Yemen, the rounding up of dissidents, some of whom are under a death penalty, the way in which they even apparently admit to having tried to rendition Jamal, an America resident, employee of an American company, on foreign soil.

Good heavens, this is something that has to be addressed at least in private, and they have to have a better understanding of exactly whether this crown prince has control over his government, number one, and if he does, he's way off on the wrong track.

CAMEROTA: And ambassador, just one more question on that. How can you be confident that those conversations with happening in private when President Trump shared a private phone conversation at least with the king of Saudi Arabia and seemed to accept his denial he didn't know anything about it and maybe these were rogue killers?

JORDAN: I think a lot of diplomacy appears in private and is given a different spin on a public face. So, again, I wouldn't read too much into it. But I would have preferred that President Trump not appear to be behind blindly accepting this excuse that it was some sort of rogue operation. What he needs to figure out is who the rogue is. Is it the crown prince, is the rogue the Saudi government, or is this an operation this crown prince lost control of?

BERMAN: And David Gregory, these are great points and great questions being raised by Ambassador Jordan here. Who is the rogue? Marco Rubio earlier asked where is the body? If a torture gone wrong is your best explanation for why this U.S. based journalist is now dead, is that actually a good explanation?

DAVID GREGORY, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Right. And why did it take two weeks for them to arrive at this story? That is what is preposterous to me.

[08:05:00] I think what the ambassador is raising is critically important. We see this in so many different instances. President Trump is a loose talker. He says what is on his mind, he reveals things that he shouldn't. He has taken a very tough line against Saudi Arabia, calling this killing disgusting, saying we're going to get to the bottom, there will be severe punishment. And then he says, well, maybe they were rogue killers, then later in the day he says we're still weighing information.

For a diplomat like the ambassador, that's a nightmare, because you're trying to send a very tough message, and I have every confidence that Mike Pompeo will do that. As you know, it's complicated because any administration faces the fact that the kingdom is a vital ally when it comes to countering Iran. There's also been excesses in Yemen. And then you have to ask the question why is it that this self-described reformer in the crown prince thinks that he could get away with something so brazen? Does he think there is fundamental weakness in this administration that they could pull something like this off? That's what the president needs to be worried about.

CAMEROTA: Clarissa, maybe the answer is, and maybe the answer to the smiles is that Jared Kushner and the administration did have a friendly relationship with this crown prince, Mohammed bin Salman, up until this incident, and he did come on a listening tour, and Jared Kushner did visit him and dine with hum, and they did socialize. And so what you are seeing here are the remnants of a friendly relationship, and what we don't know is if all of that changes today.

WARD: Well, I think what David hit on, Alisyn, is really crucial here, which is that there are some very serious core strategic interests that the U.S. shares with Saudi Arabia that really go above and beyond the Trump administration. This is something longstanding with the U.S. White House administrations. Some of these issues, David mentioned Iran, of course there is the fight against terror. Of course there is concern with the U.S. that alienating Saudi Arabia could lead to a rise in oil prices.

Then we have the very cozy weapons deals, which has been very lucrative for both sides, $110 billion in weapons sales promised over the next 10 years. So whatever moral repugnance one might feel about this whole issue, there are broader, more cynical but nonetheless persistent and real underlying strategic shared interests that I think of course someone like Secretary of State Mike Pompeo has to be taking into account as he's sitting down at that table. He can't simply walk in there and start blasting him.

At the same time, the optics of the smiles at such a serious point when we're hearing, when we're learning this new information, that the Saudis did kill this man, whether it was a botched operation or not, it just doesn't seem to fit the scene.

BERMAN: Realpolitik is not new. We weren't all born yesterday, and we know that --

CAMEROTA: We're not babies.

BERMAN: We're not babies as the president would say here. But when he uses that line, the one thing I think it does cover up is the notion that he is really for the first time articulating, ambassador, a foreign policy, a doctrine which says, yes, these bad things are happening. But they're not happening in our country, so it is not something that is of much concern to us. And if you are a dictator in another nation, do they see that as a sign of weakness or an invitation?

JORDAN: I think that's where loose talk really gets you in trouble. And it is not a fully considered statement, but it is a terrible statement to have made. But I would does agree that we can't deliver tough messages to the Saudis. We certainly did as my time as ambassador. I did, George Tenet did, Colin Powell. Many in our administration would get in their face about helping on counterterrorism, helping on other policy goals, despite the fact that they were very important allies. So you can do both. You have to do both in this world.

CAMEROTA: So, David, if the U.S. decides, for whatever reason, to accept the Saudi explanation that this was just a botched investigation gone wrong, what is the retribution for that? what accountability will there be for that?

GREGORY: I don't think I can say at this point. There are sanctions that Congress can bring against Saudi Arabia. There are both messages and actions that the administration can take that the president could elevate as opposed to just transmitting piecemeal what he's getting on all this. I think the pressure point here is Congress. Republicans and Democrats have been speaking out very, very strongly about this. And I have to believe that part of the president's national security team will also see the importance of this.

[08:10:00] But there is always, as the ambassador suggests, a broader context. Saudi Arabia certainly during the time of both Gulf Wars was critically important, which was partly why the then Bush administration had to accept both how far behind they were on human rights but also their involvement in 9/11. Now there's the ongoing war in Yemen, and again, their help is necessary with Iran. So that backdrop is not going to change. It is likely to be sanctions and rhetorical at the very least.

And again, I would just point out basically I think it bears repeating -- this is a president who talks about the news media as the enemy of the people. I think he's disingenuous when he says that. I don't think he believes that, but he's loose and dangerous with that kind of talk. This is a moment for him to stand up for the freedom and safety of journalists around the world.

BERMAN: We're waiting. I imagine we'll see a lot of developments in the coming hours, so Clarissa, thank you for being with us. We look forward to more of your reporting coming up. Ambassador Jordan, David Gregory, thank you very much as well.

CAMEROTA: So if the Saudi government acknowledges that this journalist died in their consulate, what then will President Trump do? We're going to talk with one of his conservative supporters, Matt Schlapp, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: Secretary of State Mike Pompeo is in Riyadh as we speak. And moment ago he met with the Saudi crown prince about the apparent murder of "Washington Post" columnist Jamal Khashoggi. Sources tell CNN the Saudi government is prepared to admit that Khashoggi's death was the result of, quote, an interrogation gone wrong.

[08:15:00]

CAMEROTA: Joining us now to discuss that and more, we have Matt Schlapp. He is the former Political Director for George W. Bush and Chairman of the American Conservative Union, Matt, great to see you this morning.

MATT SCHLAPP, FORMER GEORGE W. BUSH POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Good to see you Alisyn. Thanks for having me on.

CAMEROTA: Thanks for being here. So, Matt, if the Saudi government puts out the statement as we expected, as sources have told CNN they will, that this was just an interrogation gone wrong, a horrible accident. Would you believe that?

SCHLAPP: I don't know. I think a lot of people are watching this story unfold. It's incredibly troubling. Look, this - this - the Saudis are being ruled, essentially, by this crown prince who has offered all - a series of reforms, but there's a lot of people who wonder whether that's just window-dressing for a very brutal and rogue totalitarian regime where human rights is just a foreign concept. The persecution of Christians, people of other faith, and journalists, as well as others who might be critics of the government...

CAMEROTA: Yes.

SCHLAPP: ...remains a serious problem in this regime.

CAMEROTA: Yes. So, then why would you believe them? I mean, why - why bring a bone saw to an interrogation?

SCHLAPP: Right.

CAMEROTA: Why bring an autopsy expert to an interrogation? Why even lend them any credence to this?

SCHLAPP: Especially when the person who they brought all of these despicable devices to was someone who had - you know, is very close to the - the ruling family, is a kin, and had a lot of information, was seen as, potentially, a threat, publically, with his writing. So, I think your concerns are well stated.

CAMEROTA: So, that leads us to where we are today. I mean, we just saw Mike Pompeo with the Crown Prince. And let me just show you incase you haven't seen it. We have some video of that. And, you know, look, he's smiling. It appears, as Christopher (ph) describes it, convivial. They're - they're smiling at each. They're thoroughly friendly. There's some laughter there. Why? Why is that the tone?

SCHLAPP: Let me just tell you, Mike Pompeo and I grew up in Wichita, Kansas in the middle of the Midwest. He's a good friend of mine. And this is - this is who he is. He is going to approach the Crown Prince with hospitality and, kind of, a good demeanor. But I can tell you something else about Mike Pompeo I know very well. Don't worry. When that camera turned off, and the reporters left the room, I'm sure he had a blistering, and a sober message.

And I have no doubt, and I think it's wrong for us - we've seen secretaries of state for - for - representing the American government for decades, go Saudi Arabia, hold hands with the - with the leadership. That's, kind of, one of their cultural things that they do. We've had smiles before the cameras with John Kerry and William Christopher and others, but behind - when that camera's turned off, I'm confident Mike Pompeo delivered a message about human rights and what America expects.

CAMEROTA: Well, we appreciate your insight into Mike Pompeo and how he would act because it's hard to tell, frankly, Matt.

SCHLAPP: I don't think it is, not at all.

CAMEROTA: Then explain why the President...

SCHLAPP: No.

CAMEROTA: ...seems to accept the King's denial and say maybe it was rogue killers?

SCHLAPP: No. I think the great thing that the President did is he actually called the King. And I think what's happening with the Trump administration. You have to admit, Alisyn, with your reporting you're missing one huge piece. When the President when to Saudi Arabia - on his first foreign trip he went overseas to these three important centers of power...

CAMEROTA: Yes.

SCHLAPP: ...and gravity. And he, on Saudi Arabian soil, talked about the scourge of radical Islamic terror in front of the whole royal family and the leadership in the government. Things were said Saudi Arabia by an American president that were never said.

We are pushing the Saudis very hard. By the same token...

CAMEROTA: Yes.

SCHLAPP: ...it is a brutal regime. It is not a democracy. You do not have the same kind of rights like you have in Western democracies. This is.

CAMEROTA: No you don't. And Matt, just to - I'm so - I mean just to get into what you're saying. He did not push the Saudi regime on human rights, terrorism, yes. That's a shared purpose obviously.

SCHLAPP: That is human rights.

CAMEROTA: But not human - Matt, we're talking...

SCHLAPP: That is human - that's part of it. That's part of human rights.

CAMEROTA: ...Matt, no. We're talking about something different. President Trump feels strongly about fighting terrorism. Human rights, obviously there's still public beheadings going on, and killing and dismembering a journalist - a Washington Post journalist.

The President has not... SCHLAPP: Alisyn, I think.

CAMEROTA: ...strongly - strongly condemned this.

SCHLAPP: I don't agree. I read that speech. I watched that speech. But you are right to say that what the American government is trying to do. By the way, for 50 years Democrats and Republicans alike - name the policies from Barrack Obama that were harsh on Saudi Arabia. Every president...

CAMEROTA: Matt, we're not trying to figure out...

SCHLAPP: ...let me just finish here real fast.

CAMEROTA: ...I mean, I don't want to get into a history of Saudi Arabia. What I'm trying to figure out...

SCHLAPP: Yes, let me just finish real fast.

CAMEROTA: ...is - hold on, I want you to answer this. Is the administration going to accept this face-saving measure? If Saudi Arabia says this was just an accident, whoops, sorry. Is the administration - the Trump administration going to accept that?

SCHLAPP: I don't think so. I don't know what they're going to say. I'm not clairvoyant. But I do know that this is going to cast a pall, at least in their private conversations, about this important relationship.

[08:20:00]

As I said, Democrat and Republican president realize that Saudi Arabia is very important with the radicals - radicalization of Iran, and other powers in the Middle East. It's important to have a relationship with them. But we've got to continue to push them.

And the real question, Alisyn, is this, is the Crown Prince implementing reforms that are real? And will it lead to more rights for their citizenry? Or is it all - a - is it all fake, is it all window-dressing so that they can get what they need from America and the west? And I think that question is very unresolved.

CAMEROTA: Well, that is an important question. And we just had Marco Rubio on. And he had other burning questions about what happened at the conflict. So, listen to what he'd like them to answer.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R), FLORIDA: Where's the body? Why wasn't the family notified? Why have they spent the better part of eight or nine days saying they didn't know anything about it? And it's something we have to address from a human rights standpoint. Just because a country we're working with did it doesn't mean the U.S. can just shrug its shoulder and say, well, nothing happened here.

(END VIDEO CLIP) CAMEROTA: That's what people are calling for, Matt, is the President to say something like that. Yes, we have deals with them, for sure. But we have to address human rights. And we haven't heard...

SCHLAPP: Absolutely.

CAMEROTA: ...President Trump say that yet.

SCHLAPP: Well, you don't know what he's saying in private, OK? And that's...

CAMEROTA: No, we only know what he's saying in public. And in public, he's accepting the King's denial.

SCHLAPP: No. I don't think that's right. I think the question is - is this, he is in an ongoing conversation. He, Mike Pompeo, John Bolton, Jared Kushner, these other important people in the administration, they are pushing the Saudis on major questions like their funding of terrorism which is the biggest problem we have on the globe.

And - and just be - it's easy for a senator and I think - I agree with everyone Marco Rubio just said. But it's for a senator to make pugnacious comments. It's harder when you're the president. And CNN chastises the President a lot for just saying things. And David Gregory just said he's sometimes someone who has loose talk which is fair criticism.

This - it's also important that our president be mindful that the words he chooses matter. It would be easy to grandstand. But what he has to do is be effective...

CAMEROTA: Yes.

SCHLAPP: ...in pushing them into the international community's understanding of what human rights are. That's what I care about.

CAMEROTA: OK. So, what should the - what will the retribution be? If - if the President says one thing, but actually is much sterner in terms of punishment, what will the U.S. do about this?

SCHLAPP: You know, there are a full array of options on the table. I don't think it's smart for America to pull back on arms sales. And I think that would be very unwise. We - this military cooperation between Saudi Arabia and the United States has been going on, like I said - I know it's history, sorry, but it's been going on for 50 years and I think it's a pretty important one.

But the Saudis need many things from the American government. Remember, the Saudis have been an oil based - a petroleum based economy. And that has - that has its ups and it's downs especially...

CAMEROTA: Yes.

SCHLAPP: ...as we have an increasingly diverse energy portfolio.

CAMEROTA: Well, for sure. I mean, that's why so many people think.

SCHLAPP: They need America to move forward.

CAMEROTA: There you go. That's why so many people think that the U.S. is actually in the power position here.

SCHLAPP: I agree.

CAMEROTA: The U.S. doesn't have to compromise.

SCHLAPP: I agree.

CAMEROTA: The U.S. doesn't have to accept their explanation for this might have been an interrogation gone wrong. And the problem, Matt, is that, so often, the President seems to accept, really, kind of ludicrous denials including from Putin, including from Kim Jong-un. Let me just play you a couple of moments of those.

SCHLAPP: I'd love to respond to those.

CAMEROTA: So, let's go that.

SCHLAPP: OK.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I just spoke with the King of Saudi Arabia who denies any knowledge of what took place. I have great confidence in my intelligence people, but I will tell you that President Putin was extremely - strong and powerful in his denial today. Let me just tell you, Roy Moore denies it. That's all I can say. He denies it. And by the way, he totally denies it. Manafort has totally denied it. He denied it.

CAMEROTA: What is that, Matt? How do you explain that?

SCHLAPP: I - I - I don't even want to put people like Paul Manafort and Roy Moore into this conversation. Let's talk about his diplomacy overseas. What Presidents do - Presidents of both parties is they try to build a relationship with important people. I think the Putin press conference was an example where most people watching that were just like, come on. You've got to hit him a bit on this.

And he - he failed to do that. And I think that was a big mistake. On Kim Jong-un, I actually think he has pushed him further along. Steve Biegun who's our envoy to North Korea is making great strides. I actually feel like we've made a big difference in North Korea.

Saudi Arabia, Alisyn, you're right. It's a big question mark. Where does this relationship go? Is the President using the proper finesse to get them on the right track when it comes to human rights, or at least approaching it better? I don't know. That's to be determined. What they decide to do as an administration? I'm not sure.

[08:25:00] I will agree with you on this, this is a big test. What will they do? And will they grandstand, or will they continue to push the royal family and, most specifically, the Crown Prince towards understanding that he is off the tracks when it comes to human rights and decent behavior, there will be repercussions. And I want there to be.

CAMEROTA: Matt, we really appreciate your insight, and giving us your perspective here on New Day. Thanks you so much for being here.

SCHLAPP: Have a great morning.

CAMEROTA: You too. John.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN HOST: All right, a fascinating discussion there. We're facing these difficult political times, civility seemingly at one of its lowest points. So, what is the solution? Senator Ben Sasse has an idea of how to help the country. He joins us next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: Secretary of State, Mike Pompeo, meeting with the Saudi Crown Prince in Riyadh as sources tell CNN the Saudi government is prepared to admit that Washington Post Journalist, Jamal Khashoggi was killed during in interrogation that went wrong. Joining us now is Republican Senator, Ben Sasse. He is the author of a new book about America's political divide.

It's called Them, Why We Hate Each Other - and How to Heal. Talk about a timely book. We're going to get to the book in just a moment, Senator. I do want to ask you about the news from Saudi Arabia. The Saudi's explanation seems to be - or will be when they come out with it officially, that this was an interrogation gone wrong, torture that took a bad turn.

[08:30:00]