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Don Lemon Tonight

CNN Source: Secretary Of State Pompeo Leans On Saudis To Own Role In Khashoggi Disappearance; Trump And Saudis Searching For Way To Avoid Implicating Crown Prince In Khashoggi Disappearance; People Around Trump Expecting More Criminal Indictments From Mueller; Is President Trump Promoting A Culture Of Cruelty?; Allegations Of Voter Suppression In Georgia Amid Neck-And-Neck Race For Governor; Ted Cruz Heckled by Protesters At Airport. Aired 11-12a ET

Aired October 17, 2018 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon. As Turkey releases more and more damning information implicating the Saudis in Jamal Khashoggi's apparent murder, there is mounting pressure tonight for an American ally to come clean, yet the President has sided with the Saudis, speculating that what he called rogue killers could be to blame. When Secretary of State, Mike Pompeo, was asked about the investigation, he said this --

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE POMPEO, SECRETARY OF STATE: I don't want to talk about any of the facts. They didn't want to either. And that they want to have the opportunity to complete this investigation in a thorough way.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: He doesn't want to talk about the facts. Well, facts matter. The truth matters. Especially in this case. And we're learning more tonight about Pompeo's meeting with the Saudi crown prince. In spite of the public smiles and handshakes, a source tells CNN Jamie (inaudible), it was very different behind the scenes.

Pompeo bluntly telling the prince to get their investigation of Khashoggi's disappearance done quickly and to own what happened. Secretary of State also reportedly telling the prince his future as king is at stake, but in the face of everything we have learned, the question remains, why is the President still siding with the Saudis?

I want to bring in now Walter Shaub and David Cay Johnston. David is, by the way, the author of "It's Even Worse Than You Think: What The Trump Administration Is Doing To America."

Gentlemen, good evening to both of you. David, you first. One question hanging over the President and why is there hasn't been swift action about Khashoggi's apparent killing is, if it has anything to do with his personal finances. So I want to listen to the President, him boasting about making millions from the Saudis, and then we'll talk about it. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Saudi Arabia -- I get along great from all of them, they buy properties from me, they spend 40 million, 50 million, am I supposed to dislike them? I like them very much.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So when you see the President's reaction now, David, how much should we take these previous statements into account?

DAVID CAY JOHNSTON, AUTHOR "IT'S EVEN WORSE THAN YOU THINK, WHAT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS DOING TO AMERICA: Well, Donald certainly likes people who put money in his pocket. There's no question about that, but I think this goes way beyond venality. Donald has expressed repeatedly his admiration for murderous dictators like Duterte in the Philippines.

And he does not really see something wrong with it. Donald is not someone who has the empathy for others and respect of law of most Americans. That is at what really is the core here. He just doesn't see something that is morally wrong in this murder, possibly living dismemberment of the victim.

LEMON: Interesting. Walter, I mean, wouldn't a lot of this be cleared up if the President had a fully -- a, fully divested, b, released his tax returns?

WALTER SHAUB, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Yes. I mean the original sin of this administration is that President retaining his financial interests, breaking with the tradition of all modern Presidents to resolve their conflicts of interest. And having done that, he is made no effort to compensate for that breach of the status quo, by saying I'm going to be more transparent, and I'm going to show you my cards so you know what I have.

The thing is, we've given him great power, so the burden is on him to meet the burden of proving to us that he is using power solely for our benefit. And there is so much we don't know because he is been absolutely non-transparent about his financial interest.

LEMON: David, Trump sold the 45th floor of Trump tower to Saudi Arabia for 4.5 million. That was a little bit ago.

JOHNSTON: The Trump world tower. That is a different building.

LEMON: Ok. The Trump world tower, right. And then we also know the Saudis, they like to stay at his hotels. Another example is a lobbying firm for Saudi Arabia paid Trump's hotel in Washington more than $270,000 that was between October of 2016 and March of 2017. We've seen other reports, too, David. Do you think that the President is thinking about these transactions?

JOHNSTON: Well, he certainly is well inclined toward the Saudis as he is to Russian mobsters who put money in his pocket. The Saudis get that, because just this week they actually came through on their promise to put up $100 million to help the fight against ISIS in Syria.

[23:05:09] That money, which had been due for some time just came this week. So things like that, they do influence him, Don, but the larger, more important issue, is that, you know, Saudi Arabia is a country where there is no decent. In less than two years ago they beheaded 40 people for a peaceful protest, including a noted cleric. And Donald does -- he dreams about, he mused publicly about being President for life. He has talked about admiring people who kill their own citizens. So, I really do believe this is a lot more than mere venality.

LEMON: Wow. That would be a long time for me to report on this for life. Oh my gosh. Walter, this is why the founders crafted the emoluments clause. When you hear, we hear conservatives all the time saying strict constitutionalist, strict constitutionalists. There are still some. But many members of the President's -- his party, I should say, they don't apparently don't believe in the emoluments clause or the constitution.

SHAUB: It's unfortunate because throughout this administration Congress could have stepped in and done some hearings or any kind of active oversight to reign him in. As it stands, a number of groups, including the one I worked for citizens whose responsibility and ethics in Washington, are having to sue the President to try to get him to comply with the emoluments clause in the constitution which was the original conflict of interest provision that our founders put into the constitution.

I do disagree with David a little bit. I think that it's entirely possible that his financial interests are at least one of the motivations going on here. And that is because he has shown us time and again that he is willing to use the presidency for profit. He is actively touted his properties. And every trip he takes there is an advertisement for them. So he is done a lot to hide what his interests are from us, but the little bit we've been able to see has been consistent in his efforts to enrich himself from the presidency.

And now we have all of this reporting that there's an active stream of money from the Saudis to him, where his hotels are basically just a funnel to shove more money down the tube to go straight to him, through this fake, blind trust that he set up. So, I think that the problem is we can't rule out that his financial interests are a factor. And he has certainly fallen short of meeting the burden of proving that it's not. And the burden is on him.

LEMON: Can I get your response, David, about this "Washington Post" reporting President and the Saudi royal family searching for an explanation of the death of Khashoggi, one that avoids implicating MBS, according to analysts and officials that they've spoken to. The question is why is it simply to -- why are they doing it? Simply to maintain the U.S./Saudi arms deals? Or do you think it's more personal?

JOHNSTON: Well, first of all, I agree with Walter that that is certainly an element in this. You know, here we have the killers based on what we know from Turkey are the security guard for MBS. His top security people who are around him, now the top forensic doctor and they don't know who did this? Sure, they're trying to come up with an excuse, an explanation. Now that it's become an issue. They sent their signal. If you're a Saudi citizen and you are anywhere in the world, you're not safe if you criticize the regime.

But secondly, how do they come up with some kind of a story that they can sell that has at least a patina of credibility in the world. And I don't frankly see how they can do it, but with impunity, they do whatever they want in their own country at the very top.

I mean, look at all of the wealthy retainers who were locked up as prisoners in the palace of the Ritz Carlton Hotel. So, they got a real problem with coming up with a story. And Donald Trump certainly helped him when he put out this nonsense idea that they were rogue agents.

LEMON: David, Walter, thank you so much. I appreciate your time.

SHAUB: Thanks.

LEMON: After offering his resignation weeks ago, the Deputy Attorney General is speaking candidly. Rod Rosenstein says the Mueller investigation has already proven a widespread effort by Russians to interfere in the 2016 election. More on that and what he is saying about his relationship with the President. That is next.

[23:10:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: The Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein in an interview tonight with the Wall Street Journal giving a full throated defense of Robert Mueller's ongoing Russian investigation. Let us discuss now with Laura Coates and Juliette Kayyem. Good evening to both of you.

Laura, in this interview, Rosenstein defends the investigation. He says the investigation is appropriate and independent. Let me just read part of it. People are entitled to be frustrated. I can accept that. But at the end of the day, the public will have confidence that the cases we brought were warranted by the evidence and that is -- and that it was an appropriate use of resources. Is he sending a message? How do you read it?

LAURA COATES, CNN INTERNATIONAL LEGAL ANALYST: Well, I read it that he is willing to go in a direct contrast with the President of the United States, he has been saying all along, which is, this is a witch hunt. It's a waste of time and resources. They're unfounded. He is essentially saying that, no, the American people will realize through the presentation of the evidence, perhaps talking indictments, these are issued, perhaps a forthcoming report that everything that they have been able to talk about and been investigating up to this point was warranted.

And also talking about the evidence. You don't present evidence of things that have not happened. I suspect there are forthcoming indictments that are going to be here probably after the midterm elections. But most importantly, he probably realizes that his time at the Deputy Attorney General post may be coming to an end if Jeff Sessions' job is coming to an end, and he wants to instill the confidence that may not be there if he were to leave.

[23:15:10] LEMON: Interesting. So, Juliette, I just I want to read another portion from the "Wall Street Journal" piece. OK? Rosenstein says -- I committed I would ensure the investigation was appropriate and independent and reached the right result whatever it may be. I believe I have been faithful to that. So, why do you think Rosenstein is doing this interview now? I mean, how do you read it?

JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: So, one is that there was a story this morning that he was probably reacting to suggesting that there was frustration with the pace of the investigation and that there was going to be some report immediately after the elections. And I think a lot of us read that and thought, where is that coming from? So, I think part of it he just wants to say, look, these investigations take as long as we need them to take.

And if you look at the last two weeks CNN has been reporting, they're actually moving pretty part. I mean, the Manafort met with the special counsel nine times now. There's grand juries still convening. They're trying to figure out, let's not forget this, what they're trying to get out of President Trump, because he once said he wanted to testify and now he clearly doesn't want to.

But I also put this in the context of I think defense in terms of homeland security. So we have an election in three weeks. I put what he said in the context of what secretary of homeland security, Kirstjen Nielsen said last week, which is that they are monitoring just a lot of attempts of hacking and other efforts on state and local election systems.

So, what we have to remember is what this investigation is about is Russia essentially destroying our democracy, making us not have confidence in it, and that war, so to speak, is continuing. And that this investigation is intended to unearth anyone who helped them, but to also name and shame the Russians. So, it's not just the legal issue. It's the national and homeland security issue, too.

LEMON: What I thought was interesting, Laura, you said that you think more indictments are going to be coming. You gave a timeline about it, but dozens of people have been charged, some very high profile people connected to the President. And they are cooperating.

COATES: That is true. And of course, if you look at the type of cases that had been brought, they fit into different categories. Those who were the Russian trolls that began with. Those trying to insert misinformation to increase divisive rhetoric. You have people who are Russian nationals and member of the intelligence community and part of that people named in those -- that lawsuit, which is of course a talking indictment, we are not going to get those people back from Russia for any reason at any time, but they're talking about Americans who may have been of assistance in some way, but nobody was ever named. But yet you still have the Roger Stone members and associates and

teams who were being brought before grand juries or talked to or subpoenas sought for them. You still have people who are cooperating, like Michael Flynn who continues to have his sentencing postponed and Michael Cohen who is involved in a separate part of the investigation.

And of course Paul Manafort is now -- and of course his own Rick Gates, former right hand man. So you have all these people who are still on the hook with the collusion investigation and with Mueller's probe, who would fit into probably the third category and perhaps the most intriguing and interesting to the American people, because those are the people who the government has jurisdiction over, who Mueller's team could actually prosecute, not just a talking indictment.

And so I think you have this category that is out there and looming that is giving more confidence based on Rosenstein's own comments about, listen, we will be warranted in the reason why you bring these prosecutions. And that third category has yet to be unearthed.

LEMON: She mentioned Michael Cohen. So Juliette, let's talk about Michael Cohen. Because he spent hours today talking to investigators looking into president's business and charity. I wonder how much trouble or maybe how worried the President should be, because here is what the reporting is, right -- is that the administration or the President and his people are more concerned. Their big concern really is what's happening in the southern district of New York.

KAYYEM: That is right. And that would be untouchable by whatever, mostly untouchable by whatever changes might occur to Rosenstein. And I think, you know, for a long time, I guess Michael Cohen has been demoted to like, you know, caterer. I don't know what he is anymore.

LEMON: He is a freelance temp hired by a temp agency.

(LAUGHTER)

KAYYEM: Right.

LEMON: Came in to do a little stenography every once in a while.

KAYYEM: That is right, but whatever he was, he actually did have a lot of documents. Those have been raided and those have been taken in FBI sweeps. That is going to have a lot of information about the sort of -- you know, the business side of the Trump you know, legacy and the institution and the businesses.

I will say, don't forget, Michael Cohen is also mentioned in the steel dossier. So, Michael Cohen crosses both boundaries between the financial things and, of course, the collusion.

[23:20:00] And so, there's just going to be a lot of evidence. If I could just add one more thing, there's another character, all these M's, right. You know, Michael Cohen, Mike Flynn and now you got Don McGahn, who is the White House counsel who left the White House today. He has -- we do know at least by New York Times reporting that he has met with Mueller and talked to them. Not clear how much the White House knew about that. He is now free. And he was intimately involved with the beginnings of this, the Comey firing and other issues.

So there's another player out there who may or may not be -- who we don't know what his allegiance will be or whether he'll start talking. So this thing, you know, it's just -- it unwinds and it's like a web. It just keeps exposing more things. So, you know, everyone take a deep breath. This is how investigations are.

LEMON: You're right. There's a lot of M's, Manafort, McGahn, Michael Cohen, Michael Flynn, Mueller.

KAYYEM: That is right.

LEMON: Wow. Thank you.

KAYYEM: Jared Kushner does not have an m.

LEMON: Middle name could be Michael. I don't know what his middle name is. Thank you. Thank you.

(LAUGHTER)

President Trump promoting a culture of cruelty? A culture of cruelty? My next guest says that for the President supporters, callousness is critical to his success.

[23:25:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: President Trump has hurled of course, insults to everybody from Senator to Stormy Daniels, from Gold Star families, to cabinet's wives. He has separated immigrant children from their parents at the border. The pattern here, cruelty. Let's discuss now. Adam Serwer here, Alice Stewart, Bakari Sellers and Amanda Carpenter. Her latest book is called, "Gaslighting America: Why We Love It When Trump Lies To Us."

Good evening, everyone. So, Adam, this is a fascinating column here. Let me just read something that you said. It's in the Atlantic magazine, by the way, talking about the cruelty we see in President Trump's and his supporters.

And you wrote, Trump's only true skill is the con. His only fundamental belief is that the United States is the birth right of straight, white Christian men and it is only real authentic pleasure is in cruelty. It is that cruelty and the delight it brings them that binds his most ardent supporters to him in shared scorn for those they hate and fear. Immigrants, black voters, feminists and treasonous white men who empathize with any of those who would steal their birthright. That is pretty strong. You say it's a shared scorn, but what is this ugliness say about the President and the people who go along with it?

ADAM SERWER, SENIOR EDITOR, THE ATLANTIC: Well, I want to just clarify it. I'm talking about the people who go to these rallies and they cheer as the President holds up a victim of sexual assaults and jeers and mocks her.

LEMON: I'm glad you said that, because you're not referring to every Trump supporters.

SERWER: No. I'm talking to a very specific subset of Trump voters. And I think that you know, anybody who has ever been the new kid at a school knows how this works. Everybody gangs up on you. They're mean to you and they become closer friends and you're the person on the outside. And it's basically that dynamic only it's in national politics. It is something that is you know, embedded in human nature, but until -- I mean, until now we haven't had a politician who revels in exploiting that part of human nature. And I think it's taking the country to a dark place.

AMANDA CARPENTER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Adam hits the nail on the head. It reminded me of two words that you see a lot on the internet, and that is liberal tears. Like, there's a whole genre of conservative infotainment, you can find on YouTube, mostly on digital platform were people are just trying to make liberals scream and cry. And they laugh about it, right? Like there is mug that hold up and say Liberal tears. They laugh as they drink it. The cruelty is the point of that. And it really has gone mainstream in a way that is bigger than the people that just go to Trump's rallies.

LEMON: Yes. Bakari, why do you think the President resorts so often to being just mean and mocking and denigrating people?

FORMER REP. BAKARI SELLERS (D), SOUTH CAROLINA: Well, there's a couple of points. The first is, this is the same Donald Trump that he is been his entire life. So I don't know why we are shocked now. I mean, this is the person we talked about during the campaign trail. He came down the escalator criticizing Mexican immigrants and calling them rapists. And we can go down the litany of things, but we can also go back in his past and look at his discriminatory practices and look at his father's businesses and those discriminatory practices.

This is the same man who we thought he was. And so, I don't understand the outrage today. That is first. The second thing is, there's an entire generation of Americans, especially black Americans in this country, a lot of women in this country, a lot of gay Americans in this country, who are sitting back and saying, wait a minute, this isn't anything new under the sun. This is the way that we've been treated decade upon decade upon decade. So we're not that long ago. It wasn't that long ago that we were talking about Bull Conner in 1968. So there's an entire generation. This isn't the Nadir. This isn't as dark as it can possibly be. That is second.

And third, the only way this stops, me and you, Don, we can sit on TV and we can call out the racism, the sexism, the bigotry, the misogamy, but until -- I want to be extremely clear, until white evangelical men have the fortitude to speak out against this behavior, then nothing is going to change. And so, I think those three points kind of surmise where we are today in this country and it's a dark place, but we've been to darker places. But the resiliency of the people in this country while we keep rising up. ALICE STEWART, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Don, I think it is

important to note, look, as Bakari said, this is the kind of behavior and rhetoric and tone and tactic that the President is using today as President of the United States. He used while he was a businessman. He used on the campaign trail. He is using today. And, the reality is, a lot of people that voted for him new exactly what they were getting when they voted for him. And he won the presidency any way.

I'm not saying it makes it right or it makes it good. That's the reality. And I'm glad that Adam pointed out that this -- what he's describing in this piece, it is a very good, very well-written piece. It really shines a light on a really disturbing trend here.

But the key is, it is a very, very small facet of Trump voters. It is a very -- as he said, it's the very base of who he is. And he says it connects the base. I think it --

LEMON: They are the loudest voices, Alice.

STEWART: -- it might connect a very small sub-sect of his supporters. But what really connects Trump supporters and Republicans and conservatives is the policy.

And I think while there's a lot of hateful rhetoric and a lot of hateful tone out there, what connects -- the Republicans I know and the conservatives I know are the policies that he represents. We don't appreciate the tone and tactic. We appreciate the policies that he's putting forward and executing as president.

LEMON: Let me ask --

SELLERS: But I completely understand that, though. My only push back to that, Alice, is that there are a lot of us who -- first of all, everybody who supports Trump is not a bad person. I can't wait to see the clips on other stations and everything --

LEMON: It's always out of context. I don't even bother anymore but --

SELLERS: But all Trump supporters are not bad people by any stretch of the imagination. My problem --

LEMON: They're not, Bakari. I know where you're going with this. They're not, but they certainly overlook a lot. What does that say?

SELLERS: They overlook a lot. That's my -- that's my -- I don't understand how you overlook misogamy, sexism, racism. I don't understand how you can just sit back and say, you know what, all of that is OK because I'm going to get all of these judges elected or I'm going to get a tax break.

I just think that there is -- that's not what it means to be American. For some reason, I feel like you have to stand up to that and say this is not who we are. But because we get a bill passed, we pat them on the back and wear a MAGA hat.

LEMON: That was the point I was -- I wanted to make and maybe Adam or Amanda can -- because there were, what, how many, 17 or 19, how many people up there on the stage with Donald Trump who would have probably had very similar, even if not more conservative legislative agendas than he had, but they didn't vote for them. They voted for their cruel person who demeans and diminishes people over someone who is going to do the exact same thing but doesn't speak.

Ted Cruz is by far more conservative than Donald Trump and would have appointed far more conservatives judges than Donald Trump. But they didn't vote for him. Why? Amanda, he's a Republican, but you answer that.

CARPENTER: Yeah. I mean, it was an intensely negative election and instead of being an aspirational party, we dove full on into negative partisanship. I think people, Republican base, were so dead set against Hillary Clinton and we can argue about how valid that was or not. They wanted someone that would go at her using all tools on the battlefield, whether they were ethical or not.

LEMON: OK, all right. I got to go. Stand by, everyone. All right? More reports of possible voter suppression in Georgia. We need to talk about this. This time involving a bus full of black citizens on their way to vote.

[23:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Charges of voter suppression have been flying in Georgia where Democrat Stacey Abrams and Republican Brian Kemp are running for governor. On Monday, the first day of in person early voting, some 40 black residents of a senior living center were told to get off a bus, taking them to vote.

A county clerk reportedly called the center raising concerns about allowing the bus to take residents away from the center in the city of Louisville, which is south of Augusta. Well, the seniors agreed to get off the bus but were eventually able to vote later.

So let's discuss now, back with me Adam Serwer, Alice Stewart, Bakari Sellers, and Amanda Carpenter. I couldn't believe this story when I read it. But Bakari, what do you think when you saw the story?

SELLERS: You know, what year is this? It's amazing to me the length that some individuals will go, whether or not we're talking about Brian Kemp in Georgia, whether or not we're talking about an organization like ALEC and voter I.D. to keep people from exercising their franchise.

And I think that especially these voters who had to be pulled off the bus, they are of a generation who understands the value of the right to vote and the price paid. And so I think that a lot of times my friends on the right, my Republican friends on the right, play games with this franchise.

But there is so much pain and blood and tears and sweat that go into especially these individuals of color in this generation having to get that right to vote. And so nothing is going -- that county clerk has another thing coming for her if she thinks they just going to go home. They're not. Nothing is going to keep them from the polls.

But this is the story that we need to be covering more than what's going on in Donald Trump's head, because we need to make sure that everyone has access to the ballot box. This is absurd. I mean, what year are we talking about? If you read the article, you would think it's 1963.

LEMON: Yeah. And Adam, you know, this is the same state where 53,000 voter registrations, many of them African-American folks were frozen by the attorney general himself, a candidate for governor against the Democrat there, Stacey Abrams. I mean, Kemp, he ordered the registrations held because of slight problems with their paperwork.

[23:40:01] What is going on here, you think?

SERWER: Well, look, this is a country where we make it exceedingly hard to vote. We do that because historically, we have not -- the country of the United States of America has not wanted black people or poor people to vote. So, they've thrown up obstacles.

And no other country in the world does this. No other country deliberately makes it hard to vote or throws all these like weird mechanics in there to where you might end up disenfranchised on election day because you didn't like to dot an "I" or cross a "T."

This is a feature, not a bug. Bakari said, what year is it? It's a couple years after John Roberts and the Supreme Court struck down the voting rights act. As soon as that happened, it was open season. Look, this is a historical tradition.

Like I said, we deliberately make it hard for people to vote so that particular people don't vote. This is not a surprise. This is the system that the country has chosen to have for itself. It's unjust. It's wrong.

LEMON: Go ahead, Alice.

STEWART: Let me say this. I was deputy secretary of state in Arkansas and the elections were critical importance to the office, as they are of secretary of states across the country. The integrity of voter rolls is critical to free and fair elections. Exactly what happened in Georgia was an effort to make sure that the voters' names and information was accurate in order to have an accurate election.

I don't see why anyone would have a problem to make sure that the right people vote in the right locations and in the right places. And that's --

LEMON: By pulling over a bus, Alice?

SELLERS: No, no no. That's not what she's talking about. She's talking about the registrations.

STEWART: The bus is a different -- I'm talking about the --

SELLERS: Voter rolls.

LEMON: About voter rolls.

STEWART: The 53,000 names on the voter rolls.

LEMON: The explanation is that sometimes the names are hard for people who are at the clerk of courts office to spell and many instances African-Americans have nontraditional names, so they may be spelled wrong. So, so what? That's what I don't understand.

SELLERS: It's also a red herring, though. It's a red herring.

STEWART: You don't say so what. No, you don't say so what. Make sure it's correct.

SELLERS: It's a red herring.

(CROSSTALK)

SELLERS: This voter fraud is a false argument. It's so rare. Thank you. Because somebody's name is T'Shawna with a "T" apostrophe, T'Shawna, and you get there and your name is "T" with no apostrophe, TShawna, that is not voter fraud. I mean, that is not something that happens in this country where to Shawna is impersonating another to Shawna. That does not happen.

People talk about voter I.D. and the need for voter I.D. That does not happen. I mean, we're fixing a problem that does not exist. Let's open up more elections (ph) on Saturdays. Let's make it a national holiday. Thank you. This is -- I understand integrity, but, I mean, I don't know what we're doing. I mean, we're just prohibiting people from voting.

LEMON: So Amanda, the state official who ordered the elderly people off the bus -- listen, the county official said that it wasn't -- the center wasn't supposed to be political. I want to get your thoughts on that and the overall conversation that we just had.

CARPENTER: Yeah, I would like to hear the perspective of someone who was on the bus. It looks bad. Obviously if a bunch of seniors want to go vote, you should make it easier for them to go vote, but the story is a little bit modeled (ph). It wasn't clear that this was a planned activity.

I understand that people are concerned about a bunch of seniors getting on a bus and going to go vote, maybe not coming back by lunch time. I'm open to hearing that argument being flushed out some more. But I want to hear from somebody that was there, you know.

LEMON: And what about the integrity of the voter rolls?

CARPENTER: Oh, yeah. Listen, we've got to get some kind of consensus in this country on how we have an accepted form of voter I.D., like, of course, we got to make sure that the people who are voting do live in that district where they're voting and that gets really complicated gerrymandering. I think that's actually more complicated issue than these exact voter laws. LEMON: Right.

CARPENTER: But we got to have some kind of consensus. It can't just be a show up with no I.D. It can't be that. You got to jump through 10,000 hoops in order to vote. We got to find a consensus.

LEMON: All right. Everybody, stick around. We got a lot to talk about. We are going to talk about Senator Ted Cruz being heckled in public again. Are protests like these effective or do they feed right into the GOP talking points about angry, Democratic mobs or as they say Democrat mobs. Bad grammar.

[23:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: The president and his party have a new favorite talking point, using the term angry mob to try to paint Democrats as out of control and a threat. But are they playing right into their hands?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you believe in a man lying about his alcohol in front of the Senate? Do you believe in perjury?

SEN. TED CRUZ (R), TEXAS: Thank you for expressing your First Amendment rights.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So why do you support a man that abuses women? Shame on you, Ted Cruz!

CRUZ: God bless you, ma'am.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Shame on you, Ted Cruz.Shame on you, Ted Cruz.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: That was Senator Ted Cruz being heckled in an airport yesterday by protesters, angry about his support for Justice Brett Kavanaugh, that support in spite of the sexual assault allegations against Kavanaugh. And it's not the first time that Senator Ted Cruz has taken heat for it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE/UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We believe survivors. We believe survivors. We believe survivors.

CRUZ: Excuse me, let my wife through.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE/UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We believe survivors. We believe survivors. We believe survivors.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: A crowd of chanting protesters drove Cruz and his wife, Heidi, out of a Washington, D.C. restaurant a few weeks ago. So, are these public confrontations backfiring? Just ask Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R), KENTUCKY: Our base is fired up. We finally discovered the one thing that would fire up the Republican base.

[23:50:00] The virtual mob that's assaulted all of us in the course of this process has turned our base on fire.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So is that what this is all about? Firing up the base? Let's discuss now. Adam is back, Alice, Bakari, and Amanda. So Amanda, you worked for Ted Cruz. This is the second time in three weeks that he's been confronted like this in public.

I think -- I actually think he had a good response, thank you for exercising your First Amendment right, God bless you, keep it pushing. That's exactly the right thing to do. But you said this liberal tactic is going to backfire and it is backfiring.

CARPENTER: Yeah. Listen, Ted Cruz getting questions in the airport, that's no big deal, that's a day in the life of any public official. You can see he wasn't phased by that. The restaurant thing, you know, that -- Ted Cruz doesn't care about that. He knows he's not -- he doesn't take off the senator hat when he goes to have dinner with his wife.

Although I do think reasonable (ph) people look at that and said, oh, would I want to be in that restaurant with those people?

LEMON: No.

CARPENTER: Like, it's uncomfortable to see. That said, when Mitch McConnell is talking about this backfiring, he's not talking about that. He's talking about the Kavanaugh hearings where there were 20 million people viewing and they saw protester after protester getting hauled out by the Capitol police, interrupting a hearing that a lot of people wanted to watch.

And so I think that's where Mitch McConnell feels that they had some success because those hearings in particular, the protesters interrupting over and over again, that did have a galvanizing effect on the base.

LEMON: Adam, do you think these kind of public confrontations play right into the president's hands and GOP's hands?

SERWER: Look, I'm not a political strategist. I don't tactically how intelligent they are. I'm not losing sleep over it. I got to tell you, I think it is all a little precious. This is the United States of America.

This is not medieval Europe. We don't have to respect the representatives of the crown. If you're an elected official and you don't like people getting mad at you in public, then you should find another job.

Because as Ted Cruz said, these are people expressing their First Amendment rights. And nonviolence is important, but other than that, you know, you're not even required to be polite to these people. They work for you. So, you know, I'm not -- if people want to get a little heated, a little angry, that doesn't bother me at all, particularly given the history of this country.

Even -- when you go back to like the founders day, these guys were saying horrible nasty things about each other. I think the civility thing is a little precious and a little overblown. And I think as far as the president is concerned, there are two modes of communication that he accepts, that is if you (INAUDIBLE) and anything else he's going to say is illegitimate.

LEMON: Yeah.

STEWART: Don, I think the problem with this -- to Amanda's point, look, public officials realize when they're in public office that they're going to be questioned on things that they do. But taking it to the private life in airports and restaurants -- he's not the only one. Sarah Huckabee Sanders is also a victim of this, Kirstjen Nielsen and others.

We are not seeing any instances where Republicans and conservatives are going and screaming in the faces of Democrats and liberal elected officials because Republicans realize if you're angry and you're mad as hell and you don't want to take it anymore, you go to the ballot box and you go vote and you vote these people out of office.

And if liberals would take their energy and channel it in that direction instead of screaming at people in public, they'd be a lot more effective with their argument.

SERWER: Well, we did see that in 2008 --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: -- Republicans are the people who are in power now, when the Democrats were in power, when President Obama was in power, it was the Tea Party screaming and saying -- and they were self-admitted members of an angry mob. They said it themselves. So, listen -- listen, I don't want this to get misconstrued.

Bakari and I know all too well. We don't want this to get misconstrued. You're right, Amanda, it's awful. No one would want to be in that position but you are a public official. No one should be putting their hands on anyone. No one should be blocking. No one should be touching your property.

But if you're a public official and someone screams something or ask you a question in public, I mean, I agree with that, you know, don't be so precious. Answer them or do what Ted Cruz did and say, you know, thank you for expressing your First Amendment right, or I will tell you how I feel about that the next time I want a Senate tour, or call my office or something, it just keep moving. CARPENTER: Yeah, totally. Here's my line and it is a nonpartisan line. Once things get violent and police have to start intervening --

LEMON: Not right, no good.

CARPENTER: -- that's when you can't do it. And I think that's the difference with the Kavanaugh hearings. Listen, I worked on Capitol Hill.

LEMON: Yeah.

CARPENTER: The level of disorder and chaos that has escalated in the past couple of years is stunning. The hundreds and hundreds of people that get arrested, you know, it really burns me when I see some celebrities going to Capitol Hill to get a photo-op arrest (ph), making the Capitol police pump up their Instagram, that burns me to no end because this is a place where we do need to function and we have to respect the right to protest. They give you plenty of space to do it.

LEMON: Right.

CARPENTER: Let's keep that by not abusing it.

LEMON: OK. I want to get the soundbite in.

[23:55:00] Listen listen to this. This is for you. This is the president. This is for you, Bakari. Watch this. This is the president.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I need your help this election day, November 6th, to stop the radical Democrat mob in their quest for power. The radical Democrats have turned into an angry mob. You don't hand matches to an arsonist and you don't give power to an angry left-wing mob, and that's what the Democrats have become.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Real quick, Bakari, I have a few seconds left here. The Hill is reporting that two Republicans in Minnesota said that they have been basically attacked in the past few days by people who are angry at their politics. Go on. Should this continue?

SELLERS: Conservative tears. Look, what you're seeing is you're seeing people who are expressing their First Amendment right, their First Amendment right. And we were talking about as long as it's not nonviolent, civil disobedience, you're protesting, that is fine.

It's not a mob. I mean, just 18 months ago, two years ago, we were talking about a rally of Donald Trump where people were punching people in the face, where they were pushing individuals who were protesting. That looked more like a mob than anything else.

And I just -- I have a whole problem with this discussion. Is it going to be beneficial? I think we're looking way too deep in this to see if it's going to have any political repercussions. I'm not sure that's the case. But Ted Cruz handled it appropriately.

But if Ted Cruz goes out in public and he's at an airport or he's at a restaurant and people have a problem with the way that he's voting or the way that he's handling himself, they have every right to voice that, and that's what they're doing. And so it's uncomfortable, but protest is uncomfortable. It's messy.

LEMON: I got to go. I'm out of time. Thank you all. Thanks for watching. Our coverage continues.

[24:00:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)