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Saudi Intel Officer with Ties to Crown Prince Oversaw Khashoggi Interrogation. Aired 6-6:30a ET

Aired October 17, 2018 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Saudi Arabia is our partner. They're our ally against Iran.

[05:58:28] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We should not sacrifice Khashoggi on the altar of U.S.-Saudi relations.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When we're dealing with foreign policy, we should not rush to judgment.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: People that were seen going into the consulate were people closely identified with the crowned prince.

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: MBS has tainted your country. This guy has got to go.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY with Alisyn Camerota and John Berman.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: We want to welcome our viewers in the United States and around the world. This is NEW DAY. It is Wednesday, October 17, 6 a.m. her in New York. And we have some very disturbing new details about the apparent murder of Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi to share with you.

Sources tell CNN that a high-ranking Saudi intelligence officer with close ties to the crown prince organized the mission to at least interrogate and possibly kidnap the "Washington Post" columnist.

Several officials tell us that the murder could not have happened without the crown prince's direct knowledge. CNN also learning from a source that Khashoggi may have been injected with some kind of tranquilizer before dying in the Saudi consulate in Istanbul. A Turkish official says that Khashoggi's body was then cut into pieces.

Turkey's state-run news agency reports this morning that a large number of DNA samples were collected from the Saudi consulate, despite Turkish investigators finding a fresh coat of point inside the entire building when they went in. All of this as America's top diplomat has just wrapped up meetings with Turkey's president and his counterpart.

BERMAN: So this morning, we have the 3 "D's": drugs, dismemberment and denials. And we can add this fourth "D," "deference." Complete White House deference to the Saudi spin.

Again and again, President Trump has parroting the Saudi claims that they had no knowledge of the killings, despite all the reported links to the regime.

So why? Why is the president so reluctant to condemn the Saudis when the business community, diplomatic community, even Republican senators have all set off alarm bells.

Well, the president compared the situation to the confirmation of Justice Brett Kavanaugh. He lamented it as case of guilty until proven innocent.

Meanwhile, the president of the United States is hurling new insults about a woman's appearance, and an adult film actress is lobbing jokes about the president's junk, just as the framers intended.

Let's start, though, with the controversy over what's happened in Saudi Arabia and Turkey. We're joined by CNN chief international correspondent, Clarissa Ward, in Ankara; CNN senior international diplomatic editor, Nic Robertson in Istanbul; and in Riyadh, CNN senior international correspondent, Sam Kiley.

Carissa, I want to start with you and where are we exactly this morning, because there's the issue of your reporting that the Saudis were to come clean and say this was a botched interrogation, an interrogation gone wrong. Why haven't we heard anything official from them?

CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, we're certainly sensing that there's impatience, growing impatience from Turkish officials.

Secretary of State Mike Pompeo just passed through here. He met with the foreign minister. He met with the president, and he said that he believes, essentially, that Saudi Arabia is committed to a thorough and transparent investigation. That simply is not going to fly with a lot of people here in Turkey.

Turkish authorities will say that, you know, the first week Saudi authorities essentially just saying he walked out of that consulate. That, we know now, was a lie.

For two weeks refusing to allow Turkish authorities access to the consulate. When they finally do, a cleaning crew has already been allowed in. Repainting jobs have been done. The consul general's residence has still not been allowed to be searched. We know that the consul general himself has left the country.

These all raising the question of what exactly has been transparent about this investigation so far. Turkish officials want answers. They want access. And they want a sense, I think, from the U.S. that the U.S. is seriously pushing Saudi Arabia on this, because ultimately, John, as you point out, this is an issue of moral credibility for the U.S. CAMEROTA: Nic, you're in Istanbul. So what reporting do you have

about how Turkish officials are feeling, that despite presenting all of this evidence that they say they have behind closed doors, I assume, to U.S. intel, officials that President Trump still appears to be on the side of Saudi Arabia or at least giving them the benefit of the doubt over Turkish officials?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: There was certainly concern with the official I spoke with last night, the Turkish government official. They weren't quite sure how the meeting with Secretary of State Mike Pompeo would go, and the position that the United States would take towards lines coming out of Saudi Arabia, the lines in particular being that the country was committed to, you know, a transparent and speedy investigation, because as Clarissa says, that's not what Turkish officials are seeing here. So they were cautious about that.

But what they say, and this is what they've been telling me now for over a week is that, if they don't see this transparency coming from Saudi officials, that essentially they will continue to leak the sort of information that we're seeing leaked out.

CNN told just last night by a senior Turkish official that Khashoggi's body was dismembered shortly after he walked into the consulate. The photographs of seven passports have been, the Turkish officials said, a part of that 15-member, what they call hit squad that came from Riyadh the day that Khashoggi disappeared.

So Turkish officials believe that they can convince the United States and other allies that their accounting of events is -- is correct. But they have the evidence to back that up. And the international community needs to more pressure and call Saudi Arabia to account on this. They want, at the very least, to see Saudi Arabia say that Jamal Khashoggi died here in the consulate in their custody. That's absolutely not forthcoming. The Turkish officials believe, essentially, Saudi Arabia not helping with an investigation, but abjectly obstructing it. Intentionally obstructing it.

BERMAN: Sam Kiley, you are in Saudi Arabia, in Riyadh. And this morning, all kinds of new reporting linking the people allegedly, who carried out this operation directly to the regime, directly to the crown prince, Mohammed bin Salman. President Trump last night again -- again trying to create distance between the Saudi regime and the reporting on this, which is there does appear to be a link.

Listen to what he said last night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: It depends whether or not the king or the crown prince knew about it, in my opinion, No. 1 what happened but whether or not they knew about it. If they knew about it, that would be bad. If they didn't know about it, things -- bad things can happen.

(END VIDEO CLIP) BERMAN: If -- if -- if they knew about it. He keeps on saying that, Sam, even as the reporting seems to bring it ever closer to the crown prince. Any likelihood that this type of thing could have happened without the crown prince's knowledge?

SAM KILEY, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It's hard to say in a nation like this, where you have power pretty much overwhelmingly being concentrated month by month in the hands of one man, and that, as you say, is the crown prince. He has form in terms of very dramatic shifts in policy; the war in Yemen; the incarceration of large numbers of princes and other businessmen, the end of last year into the beginning of this year; the explosive relationship that he developed with Canada.

Nonetheless, there could be an argument that would come from here, and we anticipate that it probably will, that over-enthusiastic subordinates, even subordinates very close to him may -- and I stress may -- have set off on this mission as an effort to please their superior without their superior's knowledge.

That seems to be the narrative the Saudi sources are developing. It seems to be the narrative that's being underwritten, if you like, by Donald Trump. It would remain in the realms of speculation and forensic investigation, ultimately, as to whether or -- sorry, as to who gave an order or whether this was a reaction to a state of affairs that subordinates, if indeed, Mr. Khashoggi is dead, which seems pretty likely now, given all of the, frankly, overwhelming evidence, that who was behind it, frankly, I don't think we'd ever learn, least of all, from here.

CAMEROTA: Clarissa, here, just to remind our viewers, is President Trump repeatedly -- I mean, throughout the course of these past two weeks, seeming to accept the Saudi denials seeming to lend credence to them over whatever evidence Turkey is providing. So listen to his denials.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: They deny it. They deny it every way you can imagine.

I just spoke with the king of Saudi Arabia, who denies any knowledge of what took place with regard to, as he said, his Saudi Arabian citizen. I've asked, and he firmly denies that. It sounded to me like maybe these could have been rogue killers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Listen, Clarissa, I mean, some of us are actually old enough to remember when a different murder squad of 15 Saudis came through U.S. customs and killed 3,000 Americans. And so the idea that this could happen is not out of the realm of possibility, but President Trump doesn't seem to want to entertain that.

WARD: Not only is it out of the realm of possibility, Alisyn, let's just look very quickly at the crown prince's track record. He has started a war in Yemen that has killed tens of thousands and

left millions on the brink of famine. He started a diplomatic war with Canada over a tweet. He ordered for the Lebanese prime minister to be kidnapped and forced them to resign on public television.

This is not a man who is known for measured, methodical, calculated, strategic thinking. This is a man who is known for often being very reckless, making impulsive decisions, not having people around him who are checking him on the limits of his power.

And it simply beggars belief. I think many who are watching this feel that the U.S. would be so credulous about Saudi Arabia's narrative here. There is every reason, based on the evidence that is being -- that has been put forward by the Turks to believe that Saudi had a strong hand in this. And there is every reason, looking at the power structures that exist in Saudi Arabia, to believe that it is very much impossible, even, or very unlikely that the crown prince would have no knowledge, no role in an operation that is so bold and so brazen.

So why is the U.S. sticking its neck out to defend the crown prince. Why is it not taking a tougher tone? These are the kinds of questions I think a lot of people want to know the answer to.

BERMAN: Yes, and Nic, the phrase that Clarissa just used there was so credulous. And when you cover domestic U.S. politics, we've seen this before with President Trump, right?

And even last night the president himself made clear. He says it's like the Brett Kavanaugh confirmation process. He sees this as a case of, well, guilty before proven innocent. It was the same thing with Roy Moore. It was the same thing with Paul Manafort. It was the same thing with his staff secretary, who was accused of beating up his girlfriend.

CAMEROTA: I mean, it goes on -- even with Kim Jong-un, he believes that he's not going forward with his nuclear program, despite the intelligence to the contrary.

BERMAN: And Nic, the question is, when you talk about that in an international setting, a diplomatic setting, how do leaders around the world, potential rogue actors, see that? Do they see this as, "Hey, the president's going to believe us. We can do whatever we want as long as we tell him we didn't do it"?

ROBERTSON: You know, there's a sense of that's the sort of way that Mohammad bin Salman's ben operating from the beginning. If we remember President Trump, whose first overseas visit was to Saudi Arabia, didn't meet with King Salman, didn't meet with the crown prince, Mohammad bin Salman.

And there was a lot of talk about support for Saudi Arabia's efforts to crack down on terrorism, the sense that when President Trump left there in 2017 that he had essentially given the Saudis, Mohammad bin Salman, a blank checkbook to do what he wanted to do in the name of counterterrorism. And within weeks, he started up a massive rift and spat with CATA (ph) that continues this day, with President Trump initially jumped into on the king and crown prince's side. His secretary of state at that time, Rex Tillerson, was a lot more cautious about that. And this conflict continues to this moment. So I think international diplomats see it in that light.

They also see, you know, President Trump's other narrative on this issue, the one that, "If I didn't sell" -- if the United States didn't sell $100 billion worth of arms systems to the Saudis, then they would take that business to -- to -- you know, to Russia or to China. But even that doesn't hold water. The Saudis are absolutely -- as the Saudis are desperate for the United States' support in countering what they see as expansion in the region.

They love the United States for that. They love -- top to bottom in the country, they love President Trump. But the reality is Russia is an ally of Iran and Syria. So they're not going to be backing the Saudis on the Iran question, which is what the Saudis consider a big existential issue for them. And the Chinese are doing business with Iran, too.

So the Chinese are not going to back the Saudis on that. The Saudis need, in the Iran context, the United States more than the United States almost needs Saudi.

CAMEROTA: That's such important context. Nic Robertson, Sam Kiley, Clarissa Ward, thank you very much for being positioned in exactly the right places for us this morning. We'll check back with you.

Coming up on NEW DAY, we will speak with Democratic Senator Chris Coons about all of this and Republican Senator John Kennedy about this escalating international crisis.

BERMAN: So new this morning, horses and mushrooms and bears, oh, my. The president's fresh attack on a woman's appearance. New reporting on what's going on inside the president's head. Why he decided to lash out this time. You know what? It might not be about his head.

CAMEROTA: Oh, boy. Oh, boy.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:187:21] BERMAN: CNN White House reporter Jeff Zeleny reports that President Trump doesn't like the coverage of the alleged Saudi murder of a "Washington Post" journalist. So what did he do about it? He attacked the appearance of a woman, and she, of course, responded by attacking his manhood. Just as the framers intended.

Let's discuss with CNN senior political analyst John Avlon; "New York" magazine senior correspondent and co-author of "Notorious R.B.G.," Irin Carmon; and Catherine Rampell, opinion columnist for "The Washington Post" and CNN political commentator.

I think the context here is fascinating. Jeff reports that the president doesn't like the idea that the president is being criticized for not condemning the Saudis here, so what does he do? What's his impulse? Attack a woman.

CAMEROTA: Should we give specifics?

BERMAN: Yes, let's do it. Do you want to read the tweet here?

CAMEROTA: You read the president's. I'll read Stormy's.

BERMAN: All right, this is going to be --

CAMEROTA: Dramatic reading.

BERMAN: All right. Put up the president's tweet here, so I can read it out loud: "Federal judge throws out Stormy Daniels's lawsuit versus Trump. Trump is entitled to full legal fees, FOX News. Great, now I can go after horseface and her third-rate lawyer in the great state of Texas." On and on. "Horseface" he calls Stormy Daniels.

CAMEROTA: OK. Here is her response. "Ladies and gentlemen, may I present your president. In addition to his shortcomings, he has demonstrated his incompetence, hatred of women and a lack of self- control on Twitter AGAIN" -- in all caps -- "and perhaps a penchant for bestiality. Game on, Tiny."

John.

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: I think "Game on, Tiny" is the best phrase to come out of that. When the porn star and paramour gets the better of the president in a Twitter fight, it says a lot about where we are.

CAMEROTA: Thank you. This is where we are. This is where we are.

CATHERINE RAMPELL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Where we've been. I mean, this is not new territory. Trump got into the presidency shortly after the "Access Hollywood" tape, in which he bragged about groping women. I think if he didn't lose voters then, he's probably not going to lose them now by insulting the appearance of an adult film star.

IRIN CARMON, SENIOR CORRESPONDENT, "NEW YORK MAGAZINE": I think it's really interesting. I think we first have to remember why we know who Stormy Daniels is, beyond fans of her particular work, which is because the president entered into a contract with her, to our knowledge, to keep her silent.

So again, the reason we know about this individual, the reason we're talking about her is because of President Trump. When his back is against the wall, he really has a tendency to lash out, specifically at women that challenge him.

And I think he has a very particular way of doing so when it involves women who he might find attractive, and that is to insult them and to say, you know -- there were women laughing behind him when he said that the women that accused him of assault weren't attractive enough. There's a particular interplay here where the moment that he gets angry at a woman for challenging him, he goes straight for his appearance.

RAMPELL: I don't think that's necessarily -- I agree that this is necessarily his M.O. I don't know that I'd agree that this is necessarily his motivation like he really gets -- and he really gets off on -- on insulting women. But I think this is really just about distraction --

AVLON: Yes.

RAMPELL: -- from much more substantive and disturbing news.

CAMEROTA: To remind people of the president going after various women. Here is this montage.

(EGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I'd look her right in that fat, ugly face of hers. I'd say, "Rosie, you're fired."

(via phone): A person who's flat-chested is very hard to be a 10.

You could see there was blood coming out of her eyes, blood coming out of her whatever.

(in person): When you are a star, you can do whatever you want. You can do anything.

BILLY BUSH, FORMER HOST, "ACCESS HOLLYWOOD": Whatever you want.

TRUMP: Yes. Grab them by the (EXPLETIVE DELETED). I can do anything.

(via phone): She was the winner, and you know, she gained a massive amount of weight. And it was a real problem.

(on camera): I just don't think she has a presidential look, and you need a presidential look.

"I was sitting with him on an airplane, and he went after me on the plane." Yes, I'm going to go after her. Believe me, she would not be my first choice. That I can tell you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Look, he routinely sizes women up for their looks. That's a window into how he sees women. And as sort of, you know, objects. This is nothing new. But he would say that he also goes after men, that he's an equal opportunity insulter.

AVLON: Yes, I think his impulse very often is to go after women or minorities in -- you know, political attacks, but they are two separate issues here, right?

One, the absurdity that somebody who talks like that, who is known to talk like that, is an evangelical champion in that voting bloc, is absurd. The second thing is the impulse itself, which demeans the presidency. Third is the impulse to distract. That he went here, intentionally as Jeff Zeleny reported, to stop us talking about, you know, one of his closest allies internationally, you know, potentially ordering the assassination of a "Washington Post" journalist. That, in the context of that -- of the A.P. interview yesterday, he said the Fed was his biggest threat, attacking the independence of the Fed.

And that was one of the more coherent, cogent things he said. So I think what's important is not just that he said it and it's salacious and it's indicative of his character. It's that he's intentionally trying to distract us from weightier issues. That he's possible.

CARMON: You know, I agree with you that he's trying to distract, but I think we should also think about why he thinks it works. Because there's a significant portion of his base that thrills when he's telling it like it is. There is an energy and an enthusiasm among his base to see him, quote, "tell it like it is," and one of the ways that he tells it like it is, is to demean women.

And so obviously, we're looking forward to the midterms. We're trying to see how is this going to play? Well, there is a core of his base that, just like when he went on to attack Christine Blasey Ford and Brett Kavanaugh, that wants to see him insult women in this way.

And there are lots of people who prefer that he would use other words. There are other people who say, "Well, it's OK, because he's appointed conservative judges."

But I think we also have to stop and say the misogyny is actually kind of the point here for some people.

We will talk about what are young boys supposed to take of this, and I think it matters.

BERMAN: And look, we're going to talk about the impact of this on our culture and society later on. You know, what are young boys supposed to take from this. What are young girls supposed to think of this. I think it matters. It's coming from the Oval Office, coming from the commander in chief.

CAMEROTA: Of course, leadership matters. And of course it permeates our culture.

BERMAN: Yes, and I think this is just the way he acts. Probably doesn't go far enough when you're talking about the president of the United States.

But I do want to cover some other things he said in these interviews, because it's interesting and not disconnected. The president said to the Associated Press in this interview, if Republicans lose control of the House, it's not my fault. It's not on me.

You can see it: "If Republicans lose control of the House -- do you believe you bear some responsibility for that?" He says, "No, I think I'm helping people. I will say that we have a

very big impact. I don't believe anybody's ever had this kind of an impact."

He goes on to say some other sounds out loud.

CAMEROTA: Of course, what's funny about that is that we just had our voter panel on yesterday who said that they are expressly going to the polls -- this was a group of independents -- expressly going to the polls to send a message to President Trump. That is actually what's motivating them.

BERMAN: And folks, independents who had voted for Trump in the 2016 election who now have what might be politely called buyer's remorse. But what also is amazing, when the president says, "It's not about me. It's not my responsibility," the opposite of the Harry Truman, the buck stops here. You know, it's --

RAMPELL: Also that he is allergic to taking responsibility for any bad news. And then, of course, he wants to take credit for any good news that is not his doing, like his wealth or the good economy that he inherited. You know, when it comes to something good, he always wants to take credit. When it comes to something bad, he runs away from the blame.

BERMAN: And I will say that when he brings up the Stormy Daniels thing, it's not DefCom One. This is the biggest scandal ever. But it is a different subject than the economy. It is a different subject than the Supreme Court, which is what Republican candidates around the country would rather be talking about.

[06:25:07] CAMEROTA: That's why it's strange.

BERMAN: That's exactly why it's strange. That's exactly why.

CAMEROTA: Why talk about Stormy Daniels when you can talk about the Supreme Court and the economy?

CARMON: He believes he knows what he's doing. This is what got him the presidency in 2016. I mean, there's no question that there are suburban districts now that are in play that would not have been in play in the House had Trump not been running.

And I think it's really interesting, too. Buzzfeed had a great piece that talked to some of these suburban women. And they noted -- a lot of these women said, "Well, I thought that Congress would be a more meaningful check on Trump."

And so Trump is actually tarnishing, in their eyes, the rest of the Republican Party. And I think that is another way in which he totally would bear credit if it ever comes to the House.

AVLON: The justice of the Supreme Court themselves are worried about the politicization of the court. Justice Roberts said it in a speech yesterday. And the president compared the fight over Brett Kavanaugh to the Saudi crown prince accused of killing this journalist. CAMEROTA: Yes, I'm not sure Brett Kavanaugh appreciates --

AVLON: Oh, no, no. That's not a good day. Yes.

RAMPELL: But I also wanted to point out, in the sense that Trump may be weighing in on the midterms, it's not only Trump and his orbit of scandals and the Mueller investigation and all of that. It's also the policy agenda that he and the broader Republican Party have brought to bear over the last year. Their tax cuts are a major dud amongst voters. Their health care plan, you know, threatening to take away protections for preexisting conditions.

Also, severely disliked among voters. Things like family separations, none of that plays well. So it's not about President Trump himself--

BERMAN: But -- but --

RAMPELL: -- but it's about what the party has done.

BERMAN: But he likes the economic numbers. Republicans like the economic numbers. Republicans like the job numbers, which is why this is --

RAMPELL: But they are a continuation of the exact same trends we saw before.

BERMAN: I want you to talk about the Fed. Let's play what the president said about the Fed, because it's unusual. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: My biggest threat is the Fed, because the Fed is raising rates too fast. And it's independent so I don't speak to them, but I m not happy with what he's doing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Catherine.

RAMPELL: Trump keeps saying that Democrats want to turn the United States into Venezuela. The only person I see trying to turn the United States into Venezuela is Donald Trump.

CAMEROTA: How so?

RAMPELL: By compromising the independence of the Federal Reserve. We have known for ages that political independence for the central bank should be sacrosanct, because if politicians have control of the printing press, you have threats of hyperinflation. That basically, people don't believe that politicians will resist the urge to print more money.

Instead, we have basically tried to shield the central bank, the Federal Reserve, from the day-to-day politics that could get them to do, you know, popular things that are not necessarily good, like Paul Volcker, of course, decided to take the punch bowl away. And by putting more political pressure on the Fed to do what Trump wants, he is threatening our long-term financial security.

CARMON: You know, one thing that I think is weird is that Trump actually has a lot of control over the Fed and that he can appoint governors that have the point of view that he has. And in fact, he hasn't appointed people who would follow the kind of monetary policy that he wants.

I think overall what we're seeing is that the -- the kind of norms and customs that we expect, they're actually tissue-thin and that all it takes is Trump politicizing the Fed, just like he politicizes everything else for us to realize that these are really traditions and not rules.

BERMAN: That's right. Irin, Catherine, Mr. Avlon, thank you very, very much.

CAMEROTA: Here's the good news. You still have a chance to be a millionaire, and I'm going to get rid of that gnat in the studio.

No winner. And thank you all for handling the gnat so well.

BERMAN: We had four panelist. One of them was flying around here.

CAMEROTA: I know. Last night's massive Mega Millions drawing no one won.

BERMAN: What?

CAMEROTA: I'm so excited that I have another chance at this, because I forgot to get my ticket last night. The jackpot now soaring how high? We'll tell you, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)