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Secretary of State Mike Pompeo Meets with Saudi and Turkish Leaders Regarding Disappearance of Journalist; Explosion Reportedly Kills and Injures Dozens in Crimea; Interview with Republican Senator John Kennedy of Louisiana. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired October 17, 2018 - 8:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The presidents said we have got to get to the bottom of this.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: People that we're seeing going into the consulate were people closely identified with the crown prince.

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM, (R) SOUTH CAROLINA: MBS has tainted your country. This guy has got to go.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is NEW DAY with Alisyn Camerota on John Berman.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to your New Day. It is Wednesday, October 17th, 8:00 in the east. There are gruesome new details about the apparent murder of missing journalist Jamal Khashoggi. Sources tell CNN that a high ranking Saudi intelligence officer with close ties to the crown prince was in charge of the operation that likely killed the "Washington Post" columnist. Sources say the crown prince had to be aware of this mission and that Khashoggi may have been injected with some kind of tranquilizer before dying in the Saudi consulate in Istanbul.

A Turkish official tells CNN that Khashoggi's body was cut into pieces after he was killed. Turkey's state-run news agency now reports that a large number of DNA samples were collected from the Saudi consulate despite Turkish investigators finding a fresh coat of paint throughout the building. All of this as Secretary of State Mike Pompeo wraps up talks with the leaders of Turkey and the Saudi Kingdom.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: President Trump despite this mounting evidence continues to provide cover for the Saudi regime denials. He comparing the situation to the Brett Kavanaugh hearing, saying this is another example of guilty until proven innocent.

I want to bring in former FBI supervisory special agent Josh Campbell, now a CNN law enforcement analyst. He's live outside the Saudi consulate in Istanbul. Former White House communications director a State Department spokesperson under president Obama Jen Psaki joins us now, now also a CNN political commentator, and "New York Times" national security correspondent and CNN political and national security analyst David Sanger. Josh, I want to start with you. You are in Istanbul outside where

this all allegedly happened. You have been involved with questioning before. The Saudi spin seems to be we're told, or will be, this was an interrogation gone wrong, but the regime has no connection to it. Yet, every hour that passes there are more and more direct connections to the Saudi crown prince.

JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: That's right, John. Good to be with you here. We're, as you mentioned, at the alleged scene of the crime here outside the consulate in Istanbul. And really two key aspects that we're keeping a focus on here, the first being the political angle, the second being the investigation.

With respect to the political angle, as you mentioned, Secretary of State Pompeo was in country today. He briefly met with President Erdogan and the Turkish foreign minister. Although he didn't talk to the press after that meeting, we did get a readout from Turkish officials telling us that he was here to deliver a message from President Trump as well as to provide some information to the Saudis.

As you mentioned, all eyes will be on this investigation, the one that's being conducted both here in the country as well as the one in Riyadh. And there is still question remaining about how credible that will be deemed in the eyes of the international community. The one thing we do know is the president continues to parrot that line from the Saudis that they weren't involved and this may have been rogue killers that were involved, so a lot of questions remaining.

With respect to the investigation itself here on the ground, we are learning new details about the alleged hit team that was here, particularly the one individual we think may have actually been arranging all of this. We're told that this high ranking Saudi official, his is Maher Abdulaziz Mutreb. He is a Saudi diplomat and intelligence officer with close ties to the crown prince. We still don't have indication that the crown prince directly ordered the killing allegedly that took place here. But as you mentioned, their telling us that something with such international ramifications would not have taken place without authorization at the highest levels.

And then lastly, John, on the forest sick side, one thing we're keeping sharp, we're here at the consulate, there is a lot of activity going on behind us, but one additional area that's been of concern and of interest to investigators is the residence of the console general, which has now come into play because on the day that Khashoggi went missing there were vehicles, a CCTV show moving from this location over to the residence of the consul general, which if they were attempting to exfiltrate evidence, perhaps a body, that may have been a location they took it to, and discussions are currently underway between the Turkish authorities and the Saudis that actually process that scene. That's something we'll keep a sharp eye on, John.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Josh, it is so good to have your investigative expertise on the ground there in Istanbul for us.

So David Sanger, help us understand the context of why President Trump appears to be siding with the Saudi denials over the Turkish officials presentation of evidence.

DAVID SANGER, CNN POLITICAL AND NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Alisyn, I think he was pretty clear in almost all the statements he's made in the last two days, but particularly last night. His big concern in the region is Iran. He views Saudi Arabia as the country that is the key U.S. ally in confronting Iran. He recognizes that he's headed in in the next few weeks to the big cut-off of all the Iranian oil exports that the U.S. has declared for early November.

And so this is just the worst possible time to have a breach with the Saudis. And yet that's what's happening. So in everything that he's done, he has signaled he wants this to go away, including suggesting to the Saudis the thought that this was a rogue group of operators.

[08:05:06] And that's why those photographs that came out last night of several of the Saudi team were so important, because a few of them were not only close to the crown prince, but they were around the crown prince during visits he took, including to the United States.

BERMAN: Yes. If they're rogue operators, they're rogue operators that seem to have an awfully close relationship with the Saudi crown prince. It is hard to imagine they would get on private jets, fly to Turkey just by chance around the time that Jamal Khashoggi was there. Jen Psaki, to you, David Sanger brings up an interesting point. There may be strategic, global reasons why the president wants to be careful with Saudi Arabia. Obviously every U.S. president has had a complicated relationship with the Saudi Arabia. Does that explain, in your mind, why he has been so willing to parrot their denials?

JEN PSAKI, FORMER WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: No. It is correct that every U.S. president for the last several decades has had a complicated relationship because a number of the reasons David mentioned. One is of course oil revenues over the course of time and their impact on the global oil market. But also Saudi Arabia has been an important partner to the U.S. in terms of purchasing military equipment and also as being a partner and advocate for some U.S. policies.

But remember, President Trump chose to go to Saudi Arabia for his first presidential trip, which was very odd and out of the norm of what a U.S. president would typically do. And we have also seen his behavior over time where he has not taken steps to call out human rights abuses, call out abuses of journalists. So in this case I think we're looking at a couple dynamics in place. Yes, the administration and the president is making a calculation that they have an agenda on Iran. They want to remove themselves. They've already stepped back from the Iran agreement. He is surrounded by advisers who want to justify military action on Iran. They want to move forward with that. They need the Saudis not just on the global oil market, but they need them as advocates in Washington and around the world.

But he also has not exhibited a desire to call out countries who have been abusers of human rights and abusers of freedom of speech. And the Saudis know that as well. So there is a lot of dynamics at play here that we're seeing play out, and they explain why Secretary Pompeo and President Trump have really been quiet and almost complicit in the Saudis explanation here.

CAMEROTA: So Josh, look, the president, President Trump, is, I think, talking about a laudable principle, which is innocent until proven guilty. Of course, that's not the system the Saudi criminal justice uses. That's if you're a U.S. citizen. But never mind that. That's still one of our goals. Have you seen any sort of smoking gun evidence there yet? Do you think the Turkish officials will present some sort of smoking gun evidence that becomes irrefutable?

CAMPBELL: So that will be the focus. If you think a lot of the mounting evidence we have seen, so far reports, there were signals intelligence intercepts that were reported about American officials and western officials obtaining some indication that Saudis were actually attempting to capture or to lure back the journalist back to Saudi. So that's one piece of damning information. The second being the alleged audio and visual recordings from inside this compound behind me that Turkish officials are telling us exist.

Obviously we haven't seen those specifically. That's just been an indication that there was some type of real-time recording of this that could now potentially serve as evidence. And then the last piece, as David mentioned, these passport photos of at least seven of the hit team members that come here. A lot of the mounting evidence continues to point in the direction of the Saudis. And again, the question will be, this will be either one of two things, either a rogue faction that took place that the Saudi government wasn't aware of, which, again, doesn't look good for the regime. It shows that they were perhaps not in full control of the government. Or it was something that was authorized. But again, it is going to be very hard to credibly say there wasn't involvement by the Saudis here.

The question is, what will the international community say? Will the evidence be presented? That's something we'll be keeping a sharp eye one. I will say that it will be difficult. We're hearing, I'm stuck with a former diplomat last night or early in the morning who mentioned that so far the U.S. response has been paralyzing for Turkish officials because when you have the White House that's coming and saying the Saudis said they didn't do it, there's nothing to see here, these are rogue killers, you are actually limiting the Turkish ability to impose costs if they are able to make the case. We've got a lot moving parts here, a lot of different aspects to this investigation, but until we see that concrete evidence, until we see the full report, it will be then that we make the determination whether it seems credible in the eyes of the international community, Alisyn.

BERMAN: David Sanger, I'm fascinated by the end game here that if this continues as we think it will and the Saudis come up with some excuse or some explanation for how this happens, is the United States just going to say OK and then go back to business as usual? Or will there be a palpable, measurable impact in this relationship?

SANGER: Hard to know right now, John, but my guess is from all the body language we're seeing that the administration just wants to go past this. [08:10:03] You heard the president himself set the evidentiary bar

last night where he said it would only really have an impact if it turned out that the Saudis leadership and the crown prince knew about it. That would be a very hard thing to go prove, even if it was done by people very close to him. There will long be suspicions of that.

Their harder problem, John, is this. We have got a Congress that's talking about sanctions, including arms sales as you have discussed in recent days. Those arms sales aren't quite as large, at least now, as the president is advertising them, probably just a small fraction of the $110 billion he's talking about. But starting in November, if the administration is successful in cutting off the Iranian oil, it is the Saudis who have been asked to make up the difference. So the American strategy to deal with Iran will enrich Saudi Arabia and enrich the royal family in just three weeks. And that's one of the reasons they have to get this finished off pretty quickly, because it's going to be pretty obvious from oil revenues that the Saudis are a beneficiary of the American and Saudi effort to isolate Iran.

BERMAN: Pretty fascinating. The next three weeks could be not a crackdown you see on Saudi Arabia but something that actually enriches the regime from the United States. David Sanger, Jen Psaki, Josh Campbell, thanks very much.

We do have breaking news we have to get to now -- 13 people dead, dozens more hurt after an explosion at a college in Crimea. Authorities now say many of the victims young teenagers. All indications are from the Russians, they say that this is a likely terror attack. Our Matthew Chance live in Moscow with all the breaking details. Matthew?

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: John, thanks so much. These absolutely chaotic scenes unfolding on the Crimean peninsula which was of course annexed by Russia from Ukraine in 2014, there has been an explosion at a technical college in the town of Kerch in Crimea. All of the victims, a majority of the victims, rather, I should say, are said to be, as you just mentioned, teenagers. The latest official death toll is that 13 people have been confirmed as dead, another 50 are said to be injured. But we're receiving indications that that death toll could increase significantly.

There's another detail that's been broadcast on Russian state television and Russian media as well, which is they're saying that the perpetrator of this, it's being characterized as a terrorist attack, the perpetrator of this attack killed himself after the explosion took place. Russian state television is saying that that person was a 22- year-old student of that college. No motive has been given, of course, for this. Russian investigators say they are investigating that very aspect.

But clearly this is a very controversial part of the region. As I said, the Crimean Peninsula was annexed by Russia in 2013 from Ukraine. This town of Kerch is particularly significant because it is on the Crimean side of a controversial bridge that was built across the water from the Russian mainland to Crimea, providing a physical connection between Russia and the Crimea peninsula. And so all sorts of significant. We're going to get more details in the hours ahead, John.

CAMEROTA: I'll take it, Matthew. Thank you so much for all of the new reporting on this unfolding incident. Thank you.

So there is pressure mounting on President Trump to take action against Saudi Arabia after the apparent murder of the "Washington Post" journalist. What will Congress do if President Trump does not act? We have a Republican senator, John Kennedy, joining us next.

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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[08:17:18] SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R), FLORIDA: And this is going to alter the relationship between the United States and Saudi Arabia for the foreseeable future. What those measures are, obviously, is going to be up for debate. But they'll be strong and they'll be meaningful. Congress will act.

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: I know what I'm going to do. I'm going to sanction the hell out of Saudi Arabia.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: All right. That's Republican senators saying they will confront Saudi Arabia over the apparent murder of a "Washington Post" journalist.

But President Trump said blaming the Saudis is another example of guilty until proven innocent, just like the Brett Kavanaugh hearings.

Joining us now, we have Republican Senator John Kennedy of Louisiana.

Senator, good morning.

SEN. JOHN KENNEDY (R), LOUSIANA: Good morning, Alisyn. Where's Berman? How is Berman doing? Did you have to run him off?

CAMEROTA: Well, listen, we do fight over you. This is true. But today, I won that arm wrestle.

KENNEDY: Well, I'm honored.

CAMEROTA: OK. So listen, Senator, do you have any doubt this morning that Jamal Khashoggi was killed inside the Saudi consulate on October 2nd?

KENNEDY: No. I mean, he didn't -- he didn't -- something happened to him, and I don't think he fell through a hole in the fabric of the universe. I think -- I think he was murdered. I think the Saudis are certainly acting like they did it. Don't know whether King Salman or Prince Mohammed knew about it. I'm not sure it matters.

CAMEROTA: Why wouldn't -- I'm just curious. Why wouldn't it matter? As you know, they may be preparing this cover story that this was an interrogation gone wrong. Would that matter in terms of U.S. retribution against them?

KENNEDY: I don't think so. Number one, it is going to be hard for them to prove to know about it. Number two, the king and the prince are captains of the ship. They're ultimately responsible.

A couple of things I think we need to keep in mind. Number one, America's foreign policy should be anchored in values. Having said, the toughest job in foreign policy that the president has in our country is to deal with an authoritarian despot that doesn't share our values but that is important to our interests.

I think we have to condemn what the Saudis did here in the strongest possible terms for two reasons. Number one, it is right. Number two, to maintain our credibility.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

KENNEDY: But unlike some of my colleagues, I don't think we have to or should blow up the Middle East doing it.

Some of my colleagues think we need to cut the Saudi Arabians off like a dead skunk, and I don't think we have to do that. I think we can condemn them, but continue to talk with them at the same time.

[08:20:05] And let me tell you why that's important.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

KENNEDY: There are no democracies in the Middle East with the exception of Israel. I just -- with the exception of Israel, I trust every Middle Eastern country about as much as I trust gas station sushi.

(CROSSTALK)

CAMEROTA: But hold on, Senator. First things first. Let's just take this one at a time.

You think there needs to be strong condemnation. Have you heard that from President Trump?

KENNEDY: I heard that initially. I think he's backed off. I think he's trying to get the facts.

CAMEROTA: Why believe Saudi denials over the evidence?

KENNEDY: Well, I think part of it is that a lot of the information we're getting is coming from Turkish officials that are leaking it.

CAMEROTA: Is that not to be trusted?

KENNEDY: Well, it's not secret that turkey and the Saudis hate each other. There are -- there are three centers of power in the Middle East: Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Iran. And they're all jockeying to get the upper hand.

And if one of them succeeds, the Middle East is going to blow up.

CAMEROTA: Fair enough. But aren't you telling us this morning that you believe Turkish authorities and their intelligence over the Saudi denials?

KENNEDY: I do so far. Yeah, based on the facts I've got.

CAMEROTA: Again, it is just puzzling when the president of the United States says things over and over like, well, they say they deny it. The president went so far as to say maybe this was a rogue operation.

Again, just to present to people what we've had in terms of the evidence that a Turkish official tells it was there is a fresh paint of coat applied everywhere inside the Saudi consulate, that a Turkish official says Khashoggi's body was cut into pieces after he was killed. They know that because of audio and video evidence that they say they have. We understand that he may have been injected with some kind of tranquilizer. We understand that they have collected, investigators, a large number of DNA samples from the consulate.

What smoking gun exactly do you think the president is waiting for?

KENNEDY: Well, here is what I think the president is doing, and I haven't talked to him, but I try to put myself in his shoes.

There are no democracies in the Middle East with the exception of Israel. You have got these three power centers, Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Iran. We've got to deal, if we can, with all three. We can't let one get the upper hand.

Now, we can't deal with Iran. They are the most aggressive, the most arrogant. That means that we have to maintain some sort of relationship to maintain some sort of balance with Saudi Arabia and with Turkey.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

KENNEDY: And I think that's what he's doing. He is trying to figure out a way out -- that's what he's doing. He's trying to figure out a way to condemn the conduct of the Saudis.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

KENNEDY: While at the same time being able to make them understand that this is not cool, they need to calm down. The world is watching, and this undermines the Saudi Arabian integrity and sovereignty.

CAMEROTA: And if the president doesn't do that, Senator, what will Congress do?

KENNEDY: I don't want to see Congress do it by itself. I don't. I think we should do it together.

I think the president and the Congress should get together and say, OK, we understand the situation in the Middle East. We tried to remake the Middle East.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

KENNEDY: It's become more authoritarian. We got to maintain the balance of power. But we got to condemn Saudi Arabia. How do we do that?

We could expel some of their diplomats. We could use sanctions. We could curtail the arms sales. We could do a U.N. resolution.

But what we shouldn't do, Alisyn, in my judgment, unlike some of my colleagues, we shouldn't just say, that's it. No more. We're going to cut the Saudis off like a dead skunk.

CAMEROTA: OK.

KENNEDY: We can't do that.

CAMEROTA: OK, understood.

So, Senator, listen, one of the reasons that we always enjoy having you on is because you always give us a sort of unfiltered view of your mindset. So I'm just wondering what went through your mind when you looked at the president's tweet yesterday that brought up Stormy Daniels and compared her physical appearance to an animal?

KENNEDY: I wish he wouldn't have done it. We've all done something like that before.

CAMEROTA: Have you, Senator? Have you tweeted something like that?

KENNEDY: No, I wouldn't tweet it. But we all have.

CAMEROTA: No, hold on, Senator. Come on. No, we all haven't. Most of us actually resist insulting people publicly. Or we used to.

KENNEDY: Let me make my point. And that's a fair point, Alisyn.

I think most people have. They made fun of somebody else and the way they looked.

[08:25:00] It's not right. It happens all the time now on social media. It detracts substantially -- that's an understatement.

I wish the president hadn't done it. I think the president clearly has -- he grows anxious when he has unexpressed thoughts. There is some things you shouldn't say.

CAMEROTA: What is he distracting from?

KENNEDY: And there is some things that a president shouldn't say. And I wish the president hadn't done it. I don't think it contributing to anything. I don't suspect he's going to listen to me.

CAMEROTA: No. But do you think that the president doing it has an effect on the rest of Americans doing it? KENNEDY: Well, sure, sure. And I have made my feelings known to the

president, that tweeting a little less wouldn't cause brain damage. You don't have to express all of your thoughts, but that's the way he rolls. And I don't agree with it, but I don't think it's going to change.

But I certainly don't condone it, and I don't think it's right to comment on anybody's looks like that, especially if you are the president of the United States.

My point in saying we have all done it is not to excuse it. But I think most people have. They make a joke about somebody's appearance, but the whole purpose of it is to hurt somebody and there is enough hurt in the world, so why do you want to do it.

CAMEROTA: Well, there you go.

Senator John Kennedy, thank you very much for coming on with all of your opinions about everything that's happening.

KENNEDY: OK, wake Berman up now, OK?

CAMEROTA: OK, got it. I will. He's very envious that I got to talk to you.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Miss you, Senator. Take care.

KENNEDY: Hey, John.

So, if Republicans lose control of the House on Election Day, the president says don't blame him. We'll look at the bottom line, next.

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