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Wolf

Tensions Erupt Between Kelly, Bolton over Border Crossings; Trump: "Democrats Produce Mobs, Republicans Produce Jobs"; Michael Cohen: Vote Against Trump; Trump Defends Not Visiting Troops Overseas; Trump Celebrates Congressman Who Body Slammed Reporter Amid Journalist Disappearance; Trump Threatens to Shut Border with Mexico over Migrant Caravan. Aired 1:30-2p ET

Aired October 19, 2018 - 13:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:30:00] KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: They say this fight between John Bolton and John Kelly was different, especially with the national security adviser challenging the chief of staff, someone who has been embattled and weakened in his position for a few months because of his relationship with President Trump. But John Bolton knew what he was doing when he got into the argument with John Kelly. He went after a sore spot for John Kelly, which is the DHS Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen, someone considered to be a protege of John Kelly. He was the one that convinced President Trump to nominate her to DHS. John Bolton knew, I'm told by sources, if he brought her up and said he didn't believe she was doing a good enough job to prevent that surge in border crossings, it would appeal to President Trump, and it did, Wolf, because President Trump sided with John Bolton over the Nielsen remark.

So certainly, the tensions are high, not just between staffers, but clearly we see that immigration is something that President Trump, as you saw, in that clip from his rally in Montana last night, is trying to use to energize his voters to get out in the midterm elections because he wants to stave off that Democratic takeover. The question is whether or not the president can do that. And if some fight like that in the West Wing, a lot of profanity, is any help to getting that message across to voters.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: Good question.

All right, Kaitlan, thanks you very much. Kaitlan Collins over at the White House.

Let's get some perspective right now. Joining us now, CNN politics reporter, editor-at-large, Chris Cillizza, and CNN political analyst, congressional reporter for "Politico," Rachael Bade.

Chris, how do you think the president reacts when he sees the two top aides duking it out? Not physically, but screaming at each other. We're told he was there for part of that argument.

CHRIS CILLIZZA, CNN POLITICS REPORTER & CNN EDITOR-AT-LARGE: And sided with Bolton, according to our reporting. I would think most presidents would react to this poorly to this sort of thing, fighting among aides that sort of leaks out into the public. Donald Trump is not most presidents. I always remind people who, this is someone who, when given the opportunity to create his ideal boardroom, set up, "The Apprentice," in which he was the big boss. He assigned the tasks, people who didn't do well came in and begged him for mercy, he watched them fight it out, and then he fired someone. He said he likes to watch the aides fight. So I think he's not at all upset that they fought. He may be upset about it leaking out. We know he doesn't like leaks. So maybe that piece of it. But don't assume that dissension and chaos and conflict is something he looks down upon. He likes it.

BLITZER: Only 18 days to go to the midterms, Rachael. He's got a new message of sort he delivered last night on the campaign trail. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The choice could not be more clear. Democrats produce mobs. Republicans produce jobs.

(CHEERING)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: A new message going out, not just for him but for a whole bunch of other Republicans. You have a terrific piece in "Politico" that you've written saying Democrats, maybe calmed down a bit. It's not a lock they'll take the House of Representatives.

RACHAEL BADE, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: The general consensus is Democrats will take the House. But it sounds like there's been a lot of enthusiasm since the confirmation of Brett Kavanaugh on the right such that a lot of analysts say the Republicans have about a 30 percent chance of keeping the chamber. Imagine that. Republicans are saying a number of races they had taken off the board and said they can't win, they're putting back on the board. And a number of Democratic investors have pulled out of Democratic districts -- or Republican districts where the Democrat is actually now losing to the Republican. So there's definitely a chance here.

What you're seeing from the president is he is trying to keep this enthusiasm going. If they have any prayer of doing this, they need to get Trump voters to the polls. So they're talking about immigration. One of the reasons they want to crack down at the border. Other things are like work requirements for food stamps. Again, bringing up Kavanaugh over and over again, and trying to make it a choice, do you want to impeach the president and have a Speaker Pelosi, or do you want, you know, results, as they say, tax cuts, et cetera. So they're painting it as that choice.

BLITZER: It will be dramatic.

Everybody, stand by. Stand by, guys.

There's other news we're getting right now. President Trump this week took a swipe at his former attorney, his fixer, Michael Cohen, calling him a minor, ineffective member of the Trump world. But Michael Cohen is firing back with a surprising message of his own.

Let's go to M.J. Lee, joining us from New York.

I take it, M.J., you had a chance to catch up Michael Cohen in New York? Tell us about that.

M.J. LEE, CNN POLITICAL REPORTER: That's right, Wolf. We just caught up with Michael Cohen, Donald Trump's former lawyer, outside his Manhattan home. Even though it was a brief interview, his message was clear. He wants the American people to go out and vote against President Trump. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEE: How have you been doing?

MICHAEL COHEN, FORMER TRUMP LAWYER: I'm OK. I'm OK.

LEE: Yes. Your lawyers say you're now a Democrat. What made you do that?

COHEN: I've been a Democrat pretty much my whole entire life. I switched because of the request from the RNC. Couldn't be the vice chair of the RNC and be a Democrat.

[13:35:11] LEE: And you tweeted over the weekend, "The upcoming election would be the most important of our lifetime. Get out and vote." What did you mean?

COHEN: Listen. Here's my recommendation, grab your family, your friends, your neighbors, get to the polls. If not, you'll have another two or another six years of this craziness. Make sure you vote.

All right?

(CROSSTALK)

LEE: We know that you had meetings with investigators yesterday, anything about that?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEE: Now, Wolf, this was remarkable for a number of reasons. One of the reasons is Michael Cohen hasn't been openly talking to the media for a very long time, particularly because he had been in so much legal trouble. The fact he was willing to say this on the record, on camera, basically telling the American people you need to go out and vote against the president or else we are going to see two or six more years of this craziness. Those were his words. That is really fascinating.

This is a part of this bigger evolution we've been reporting on over the last couple months of this man who was so loyal to the president, now doing a complete 180, and making it clear that he is not on his team anymore. And he actually is willing, as you see here, and in our previous reporting, he is willing to be the person to go out and say he will need to take this man out of the White House.

You saw at the very end that I tried to ask him about the meetings he has had with investigators, and he obviously walked back into the building and ignored those questions. But that's a very central part of this narrative. Michael Cohen has made it clear, he is eager to talk to anyone who will listen. Whether it's investigators in Special Counsel Robert Mueller's office, whether it's folks at the New York A.G.'s office, he wants to tell them information, any information they might want from him. And he wants to do anything to try to stop his former boss from staying at the White House.

BLITZER: M.J. Lee, thank you very much. Terrific reporting. We'll get back to you soon.

Very quickly, Chris Cillizza, Rachael Bade, what he's telling Robert Mueller, Michael Cohen, what he's telling the U.S. attorney for the southern district of New York, what he's telling the attorney general in New York state, got to keep Donald Trump, the president of the United States, very worried.

CILLIZZA: Look, Donald Trump, earlier this week in an interview with the Associated Press, tried to downplay Michael Cohen. He said he was a P.R. guy, we didn't really have a close relationship. You can look at the relationship over the past decade. They were very close. This is an inner circle guy. The fact he is talking, the fact he has turned is problematic. I would say just as worrisome as the fact that Paul Manafort has spent nine days talking to Mueller and his team the last 28 days.

BLITZER: Very quickly.

BADE: And beyond the legal, politically, he just gave one of the top talking points that Democrats are making on the campaign trail, which is, unless you go out and vote, you'll have two more years of chaos. I don't think anybody will listen to Michael Cohen and show up and vote because he insisted. Democrats have cash, have an expansive battlefield, and that's why they're sort of favored. But it is President Trump --

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: But it's interesting, M.J., she got him to talk on camera. Pretty impressive development indeed.

All right, guys, stick around.

There's more news we're following. President Trump taking criticism for saying he's too busy to visit U.S. troops overseas.

Plus, a showdown in the making. A caravan of refugees making their way to the U.S. as President Trump ramps up security and threatens to shut down the border in Mexico. We're live with the caravan of immigrants. That's coming up.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(SHOUTING)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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[13:43:36] BLITZER: President Trump is defending himself for not visiting U.S. troops overseas while in office. During an interview earlier in the week with the Associated Press, he was asked why he hasn't visited a military base in a combat zone, like in Iraq or Afghanistan, and he said, and I'm quoting the president now, "Well, I will do that at some point, but I don't think it's overly necessary. I've been very busy with everything that's taking place here."

Joining us with more, presidential historian, Michael Beschloss. His new book is entitled "Presidents of War." There you see the cover. Just came out. It takes a close look at how past presidents pushed American often into costly wars that, in hindsight, were not essential to U.S. national security.

President Trump -- thank you so much for joining us.

MICHAEL BESCHLOSS, PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN & AUTHOR: My pleasure.

BLITZER: He says he's very busy and, as a result, he hasn't visited with the troops. What do you think of that answer?

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: Historical, presidential historical.

BESCHLOSS: Yes. It's another place where President Trump is departing from tradition. The best example was President Lincoln. He said he didn't want to get too separated from the soldiers who were suffering because of the decisions he made. Actually, in the middle of the Civil War, Wolf, there had to be a national cemetery built. Lincoln said build near my summer home. I want to see the graves being dug of the soldiers I sent off to die in this war. It will be very painful for me, but I want to be emotionally involved in those decisions.

BLITZER: My own sense is he hasn't visited the troops in Afghanistan and Iraq because he thinking those wars were a disaster for the United States. He says the U.S. never should have gotten involved in the Middle East, and he would like to pull out, for all practical purposes.

[13:45:12] BESCHLOSS: Well, fine, but part of the job of a president, whether you like the war you're in or not, is to be involved with the soldiers who are waging it, and he really should be.

BLITZER: Let me get your thoughts as a presidential historian. Last night, the president joking about a U.S. congressman who acknowledged body-slamming a journalist, and the president making fun of that. From your perspective, what was your reaction? You've seen the video. You've seen the tape. BESCHLOSS: Yes, you know, maybe it was fine in front of a crowd, but

a president encouraging violence, a president who has recently said over and over again that the journalists are the enemies of the people, especially in the wake of that atrocity in Turkey, what happened to the journalist in Istanbul, was not the right time for this.

BLITZER: How do you explain the president's timing? I think you're right. The fact that Jamal Khashoggi was apparently murdered at the Saudi consulate in Istanbul, a contributor to the "Washington Post," somewhat a resident of the United States, a Saudi citizen. And all of a sudden, a president is joking about body-slamming a journalist.

BESCHLOSS: He shouldn't be doing it. He's playing to the crowd. He got a great response. But you know, Donald Trump is a war president, just as Lincoln was and Franklin Roosevelt was. Part of what a war president has to do is unite the country in every way he can. And it's just not Donald Trump's M.O.

BLITZER: Your book, "Presidents of War." Talk a little bit about this president. Is he a president of war? Does he see himself as a president of war, leading the U.S. military in combat right now? He's the commander-in-chief.

BESCHLOSS: Right, he is. But it's just what you just said, Wolf. These were not his wars, but the problem is that's not a choice for him to make. Barack Obama inherited the war in Iraq. You certainly saw him going to visit the soldiers. You saw the same thing with Richard Nixon in 1969 inheriting Lyndon Johnson's Vietnam War. There's so many similarities among the presidents I found in this book who waged large wars all the way from James Madison to the president. A lot of them had emotional breakdowns. They all got more religious. They all had strong marriages. But the one thing is, nowadays, a president can get us involved in a war single handedly overnight. That was not the way at the beginning of our country.

BLITZER: A really important new book, "Presidents of War." Recommended to our viewers out there.

Michael Beschloss, thank you so much for doing it.

BESCHLOSS: Thanks. Great to see you.

BLITZER: Appreciate it very much.

We're getting live pictures coming in from Guatemala right now where are CNN team is headed with a group of thousands of people fleeing violence and poverty, trying to make their way to the United States. We're going to go there with a live report. Our Bill Weir is on the scene. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:52:39] BLITZER: Right now, thousands of migrants are trekking in a caravan towards Mexico's southern border. They eventually hope to get to the northern border with the United States. Our special correspondent, Bill Weir, is in the largest city in

Mexico, closest to the Guatemalan border.

Bill, tell us what the situation is there. What are you seeing? What are you hearing?

BILL WEIR, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Wolf, it's sort of a surreal scene. A cloudy day, the wind is blowing. The electricity in the air has been building for about the last half hour. We can hear on the Guatemalan side of this river border, cheering, they're honking horns, airhorns, the caravan of the folks moving north. We're going to get you pictures here shortly. I can see maybe 400 or 500 federal police officers on the Mexican side. They set up barricades inside the gate fence. Now they're literally closing and padlocking the fence. We asked some of the officers what the plan was and they said they want to keep them out for now. But that could be overruled. Just as I say that, the official backed off with the padlocks. We're in a real state of flux. We're not sure. We asked for a statement from the foreign ministry of Mexico. They told us that the officers are here simply to ensure a safe and orderly and humane passage for all migrants. They want, at least from the statement, to hopefully manage these people into an orderly process as they cross the border here right now. But if what the officers told us has any truth to it, they may try to stop them here and let this group cool off for a while.

This is the first wave. We're hearing there's another caravan wave behind this one.

But this is a real test, obviously, for President Trump's policy. He's been encouraging the government down here, which is in transition. The new president-elect has taken a much sharper stance on Central American immigration, saying the previous southern border strategy under President Nieto, created more human trafficking, more corruption. As they use law enforcement, the new president wants to have a revitalized economy and offer some of these people jobs at some point.

At least for right now, this is a big test for the Trump administration's influence down here in Mexico. In the three months since they've stopped family separations, the amount of families crossing has just surged. More than 16,000 in September, like an 80 percent jump. So they're coming in waves at this point, in record numbers.

And this is the latest skirmish. Oh, now you can hear the chains are being locked. It looks like they just sealed the Mexican border here. And it's just a matter of time. We're waiting to see when this wave -- (INAUDIBLE).

[13:55:50] BLITZER: It's a tense situation.

Bill, we'll stay in very close touch with you. You'll keep us updated on all the late-breaking developments. Bill Weir is on the scene for us along the Mexico/Guatemala border. There's startling new audio coming in from now a member of Congress

heard mocking women who were traumatized after unwanted sexual advances. You're going to hear the audio for yourself. A lot more. That's next.

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