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New Report Indicates Saudis Had Body Double for Jamal Khashoggi in Consulate During Incident that Led to His Death; President Trump to Hold Campaign Event for Ted Cruz; The So-Called Caravan Of Central American Refugees Heading Through Mexico Remain Undaunted, They Say, In Their Desperate Journey. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired October 22, 2018 - 8:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00] ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: And it also shows President Trump's approval ratings hitting a new high. So what does that mean? Who will control Congress?

Let's begin with CNN's chief international correspondent Clarissa Ward and our exclusive report on Khashoggi. Clarissa, what have you learned?

CLARISSA WARD, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's extraordinary, Alisyn. Just as Saudi Arabia's foreign minister has been telling FOX News in an interview that this was simply a terrible accident, that this killing was unintentional, we're hearing a very different story from Turkish officials who say this was premeditated murder. And they have shared with us some extraordinary footage that appears to show the Saudis brought in a body double to pose as Jamal Khashoggi leaving the consulate to cover up the killing. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WARD: At first glance, this man could almost pass for Jamal Khashoggi. And that's the idea. These are the last-known images of Khashoggi alive, moments before he entered the Saudi consulate. Take a look. Same clothes, same glasses and beard, similar age and physique. Everything except the shoes.

But a senior Turkish official tells CNN that the man on the left is a body double, one of 15 Saudi operatives sent to kill Khashoggi and then cover it up. His name is Mustafa al-Madani. Surveillance cameras capture him arriving at the consulate in a plaid shirt and jeans at 11:03 with an accomplice. Two hours later, Khashoggi arrives. He was killed inside shortly afterwards.

While Khashoggi's fiance waited in front of the consulate, we're told al-Madani came out through this back exit. Disturbingly, he appears to be wearing the actual clothing of the murdered journalist. The intent, Turkish investigators say, was to perpetuate the lie that Jamal Khashoggi left the consulate unharmed.

The apparent double and his companion take a taxi to Sultan Ahmed Mosque. It's one of Istanbul's main tourist attractions and an easy place to get lost in a crowd. The men head to the bathroom. The accomplice carries a plastic bag. When they emerge, al-Madani is wearing his own clothes ago.

And just like that, Jamal Khashoggi has disappeared forever, or so the Saudis would have had the world believe. Little did they know, Turkish authorities would quickly uncover the cover-up.

From their next stop at a nearby restaurant where al-Madani appears to have ditched his fake beard, to a dumpster where the men finally dump the plastic bag. A senior official says investigators believe it likely contained Khashoggi's clothes. As they head back to their hotel, the pair appear visibly relaxed. Their mission is complete.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WARD: So this gives you a sense, potentially, of why it is that the Saudis were so brazenly peddling this lie in the initial days after Khashoggi went missing that he had left the consulate unharmed, but it also raises the question as to why they didn't release some sort of surveillance footage themselves that would potentially help them out with that lie. The answer may be that they were waiting for Turkish surveillance video to be released that would corroborate their story, or it may simply be that they understood early on that Turkish authorities were on to them and that the jig was likely up.

A couple of other pieces of housekeeping from here. We're outside the consulate, as you know. We're hearing today that a number of consulate employees once again being taken in for questioning, giving statements to the Turkish prosecutors office. And we are also expecting to hear from the Turkish president, himself, President Erdogan tomorrow. It will be very interesting, John and Alisyn, to hear what he has to say about this.

CAMEROTA: Clarissa, it is just so chilling to look at that split screen and see that man who is not Jamal Khashoggi in Jamal Khashoggi's clothing. What more do we know about the background of this body double?

WARD: I think the first thing that jumps out at you -- because it's entirely possible that the Saudis will say hold on, this was just improvised. It was a cover-up after the botched interrogation, which is the story they started out telling. But the question is, why was al-Madani even on this journey if he wasn't originally designated to be a body double? He's 57-years-old. That is not the same age by a country mile as the other operatives, most of whom were in their 20s and 30s. He is the same height, the same weight. And why would he have brought a fake beard with him if the intention wasn't all along to have him pose as a body double? This clearly proves premeditation. The only question that the Saudis may be able to try to ask, does it prove premeditated murder or could it be premeditated rendition or some type of an abduction? We'll have to see. So far, a Saudi source close to the palace telling me simply they will neither confirm nor deny the use of a body double.

[08:05:08] JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Clarissa Ward, just remarkable reporting. Thanks so much for delivering it to us in this CNN exclusive this morning. A bone saw, a body double, and a fake beard, if that doesn't add up to premeditation, I don't know what does. So joining us now is "Washington Post" reporter Josh Dawsey, a CNN

political analyst who spoke with the president over the weekend about this case. And Josh, this was a major shift from the president in his conversation with you. Last three week he has been parroting the Saudi denials. Then he found their explanation for the whole thing, a fistfight gone bad, credible. But then in a phone call with you, all of a sudden Saturday he says what?

JOSH DAWSEY, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: He says there has been deceit and there's been lies from the Saudis and they cannot keep their story straight. What the president was trying to do, John, was strike a remarkable balance. He kept saying that the Saudis had not been telling the truth, that he was really frustrated, and at the same time he was saying Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, MBS, as he is known, he thought that he deserves to be in charge, he's a great leader, he's a strong leader. He's the kind of leader who he said might not have known about it in advance, even though so many Republican senators, Lindsey Graham, Bob Corker, so many in the president's coterie of advisers, believe this was premeditated at the order of the crown prince. But President Trump was trying to strike this balance of saying both that the Saudis have been lying, but at the same time, he does not want to change his status quo yet.

BERMAN: And the second part of that is so interesting, as we sit here this morning, looking at this remarkable exclusive of Clarissa Ward. The Saudis brought in a body double, obviously to cover up what happened inside there with every sign that it was premeditated. The question we've been asking all morning is, what might the president make of this? But I think the answer came in the interview to you. He said, well, it is what it is. The Saudis have been lying to us all along. But it does not change the way I feel about the Saudi regime.

DAWSEY: The president went to extraordinary lengths to say it was clear this was done by the Saudis, but he was not clear if MBS himself, the crown prince, ordered it. He said that none of his intelligence officials, the CIA director, Gina Haspel, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, has anyone around you come to you and described who ordered this killing? And the president said no. He said maybe the crown prince knew he was going to be abducted, or maybe the crown prince know he was going to be interrogated, but he kept leaving distance of whether he thought the crown prince knew he was going to be killed or not. And it's a distinction that I think they're trying to make so they can keep the relationship with Saudi Arabia essentially intact.

BERMAN: We know that the White House is keenly aware of the relationship between the president's son-in-law Jared Kushner and the Saudi crown prince, Mohammed bin Salman. What did the president say about that relationship?

DAWSEY: The president said that Mohammed bin Salman and Jared Kushner, two of the most important leaders in both countries, obviously, two of the most important advisers, are simply young people who like each other and who have spoken a few times. Early in the administration we and others have reported, John, that there was a lot of concern inside the government that Jared Kushner was singularly controlling this relationship with MBS, but other officials and secretary of state, national security council, were not looped in, and this was a bit of a rogue operation in the eyes of many in the government.

And this week you've seen something different. You haven't seen Jared Kushner in the spotlight. You've seen Mike Pompeo on the trips. You've seen others in the foreign policy apparatus handling this. And a number of White House officials say there's a reason for that.

BERMAN: It's interesting. He really seemed to try to downplay the nature of that bond between the crown prince and Jared Kushner, just two young guys who get together and play "Fortnight" or something. He didn't use the "Fortnight" thing but he made it seem there were just guys who know each other, they sometimes text. There isn't this firm bond there.

DAWSEY: But if you remember correctly, the president's first foreign trip was to Saudi Arabia back in May of 2017, and it startled many. And what we knew at the time was that Jared Kushner orchestrated that trip. He wanted the first trip to be Saudi Arabia. He continually told the president the relationship with Mohammed bin Salman in Saudi Arabia was a crucial link to try to get Middle East peace, which has been his goal all along, he said. So it's hard to believe that they're just two young guys who talk to each other occasionally when what we've seen has been far stronger than that all along.

BERMAN: Josh, it's interesting. One of the things I've wondered all along in the last three weeks as the White House view on this has changed, they've been criticized so much. Do they think there really is any political peril for them here in terms of the midterm elections? Did the White House just assume that voters aren't going to care about this in 15 days?

DAWSEY: I think that's certainly dominating the try chyrons and newspapers now, and that's something the president keeps closely attuned to. He has certainly wondered out loud to advisers of whether it will or not. Obviously when you see him at rallies, he's talking about the economy. He's talking about what he sees as a Democratic mob. He keeps using the phrase jobs not mobs, which is an interesting turn of phrase.

[08:10:09] But it's certainly back in the White House, there's concern how they handled this could affect voters, though it's really hard to know with this presidency and how many different stories you have a week, and how long the story takes whether it will or not. This has been almost three weeks. It's been one of the longest storylines of the Trump presidency, frankly. But whether it carries over until November 6th, I don't think anyone knows.

BERMAN: Josh Dawsey, great reporting, fascinating interview, thanks so much for being with us.

DAWSEY: Thanks for having me.

BERMAN: Let's turn now to the midterm elections. They are 15 days away. Early voting begins today in the all-important Florida and Texas races. So which party will control Congress after November? Let's find out. Let's discuss with Jonathan Martin, national political correspondent for "The New York Times," and Joshua Green, national correspondent for "Bloomberg Business Week," both CNN political analyst. OK, J. Martin, you have been reporting in the Midwest, or certainly you have reporting from the Midwest? Where do you see the momentum at the moment?

JONATHAN MARTIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I think it's two Americas tomorrow from that great American philosopher, John Edwards. I think you've got a Senate map and a House map. And I think the Senate map is much more favorable to the Republicans at this point than the House map. I think talking to folks yesterday, both Democrats and Republicans, they believe that right now the Senate probably looks like anywhere from, stay where it is to a plus one or two GOP gain. And I think looking at the House, I think there's still a consensus in both parties that the Democrats do pick up the majority. I think there are some on the right who believe it is going to be a very narrow majority. But the question is now is that 27, is it 35 seats in the House? But that's kind of where things seem right now.

Where this is different from past midterms is that there does not seem to be an appreciable falloff in the intensity in either party. As you guys know in 2006 Democrats won big in part because the GOP was depressed. In 2010 and 2014, Democrats could not get their folks revved up when President Obama was not on the ballot. This time, guys, it seems like both parties seem fired up and ready to go.

BERMAN: It's interesting, Josh, I'll trumpet some of Jonathan Martin's reporting over the weekend. He was saying in the Midwest, Pennsylvania, Washington, Michigan, some of these states that Donald Trump flipped at the presidential level in 2016 is actually an area where there's a considerable amount of softness now for the Republicans. And they're concerned about the gubernatorial races there. They're concerned about some of the House races there. And where this dovetails with your reporting, Josh, is that these are the states that Steve Bannon and political gurus of Donald Trump thought that they could flip for a generation and make them Republican.

JOSHUA GREEN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes, that's right. There used to be a thinking in Democratic politics that there was what was called a blue wall on electoral map, the presidential electoral map. And what that basically meant was these upper midwestern and midwestern states tended to go to Democrats. They had for many of the past elections. And so what the Trump people were saying after Trump's surprise victory in 2016 is that if you look at the Trump coalition, if you look at the blue collar, white midwestern voters that allowed Trump to carry states like Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania, Ohio, the Trump people thought -- Bannon thought they had a hammerlock, he called it, on the electoral college for the next 20 years going forward, that was going to make it all but impossible for Democrats to win back the presidency.

I think what Jonathan's reporting shows is not only is that area now in jeopardy for Republicans, but it probably also bodes poorly for Trump's reelection possibilities if the states that handed him the presidency in 2016 have turned in a different direction for Republicans.

CAMEROTA: Let's talk -- go ahead.

MARTIN: I was going to say, I think part of the challenge is that Trump built up the expectation so much because his campaign rhetoric of 2016 was all promising. I'm going to singlehandedly bring back manufacturing to this region that's been hard hit. And obviously there's been some growth on that front, but those states are obviously not going to be what they were half a century ago in terms of manufacturing. And so I think that has created an opening for Democrats to say that they have fallen short.

The other thing, guys, is that in a lot of these states, Republicans have had power since 2010. So Democrats who are running can sort of run against the in party and point to the problems in state and lay them at the feet of the GOP. That's certainly what's happening in Michigan right now where it's easy to blame the opposition for everything that's gone wrong in the state because they've been in charge the last eight years.

CAMEROTA: OK, Josh, let's talk Texas. So Ted Cruz running against Beto O'Rourke, at the moment Ted Cruz has the advantage, 52 percent to 45 percent. And tonight, President Trump is going to campaign for Ted Cruz. This is interesting because the last time we saw them on a campaign trail together, the messaging was a little different. And so maybe just to remind people of what they said then in 2016.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TED CRUZ, US SENATOR, TEXAS, REPUBLICAN: Donald, you're a sniveling coward. Leave Heidi the hell alone.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: His father was with Lee Harvey Oswald prior to Oswald being, you know, shot. I mean the whole thing is ridiculous.

CRUZ: The man cannot tell the truth, but he combines it with being a narcissist.

TRUMP: Lying Ted Cruz. Lying Ted lies, oh, he lies.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Josh, do you think he'll bring up the Lee Harvey Oswald thing tonight?

GREEN: You know, I'm not going to rule out anything with Donald Trump. But, I think what's changed since those exquisite clips is that Cruz has basically bended a knee and submitted to Trump's authority here. In return, he's being rewarded with a trip that will help him, presumably, gin up Republican enthusiasm ahead of a November 6 election. I think that's why most public polls and most strategists think that Cruz will pull this out despite an impressive candidacy from Beto O'Rourke.

BERMAN: I have to say, we always see that past political rivals come together and they end up endorsing each other, John McCain and George W. Bush. It always happens.

But when you see the President accusing Ted Cruz's father of being somehow connected to the Kennedy assassination, Jonathan Martin, really it's going to be interesting to watch them on stage tonight.

MARTIN: But wait, here is the thing, John. There's like a sense that with Trump, it doesn't count. I say that from having talked to a lot of politicians. They just don't believe it's on the level. And so I think it's easier for these guys to make up with him because there's a sort of WWF sensibility to it.

And I think if it was a more conventional politician, guys, I think it would be harder for them to have sort of made up and kind of moved on in the way that sort of professional politicians do that.

With Trump, I think there's a sense that he doesn't actually believe this stuff. Now, that said, he did insult the looks of Senator Cruz's wife and you can't sort of explain that away to kind of pro wrestling sensibility. That is what it is. So I think that's extraordinary, that they kind of put that aside.

But from a raw political standpoint, look, these candidates see Trump as a way to energize the base of their party because the base of the party is all in for Trump, and so they are with Trump, it's not more complicated than that and certainly not in a place like Texas.

Although I have to say, I'm a little surprised he's playing in Houston just because I thought that there would be more of an interest to bring him to a rural area to just kind of drive turnout. Houston is more of a double-edged sword because there's a lot of Democrats and moderates there who aren't fans of Trump.

CAMEROTA: Go ahead, Josh.

GREEN: Well, you know, look, I think being emasculated like that is just part of the cost of doing business if you're a Republican elected official who wants to get close to Trump. I mean, we've seen everybody who gets close to him at some point has to deal with something like that, and if they want to go forward and if they want to win re-election, they have got to swallow hard as I imagine Ted Cruz did and Heidi Cruz did and decided they are going to throw in with Trump anyway.

BERMAN: I've got to say, it's the "Game of Thrones" version of the midterms, according to Josh Green. Josh, thanks very much. Jonathan Martin, appreciate you being here. Thank you.

CAMEROTA: All right, now to this story, the so-called caravan of Central American refugees heading through Mexico. They remain undaunted, they say, in their desperate journey.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL WEIR, ANCHOR, CNN: Do you know that &President Trump is threatening to use soldiers to keep you out?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: All right, her answer and more. Our Bill Weir has a live report from Mexico. We'll get all the facts, next.

[08:20:00]

CAMEROTA: Thousands of Central Americans are on the move, making the risky march through Mexico away from the hardship at home for a shot at seeking asylum. President Trump made a lot of outlandish claims about these migrants this weekend without offering any evidence, so let's the facts from CNN's Bill Weir, he is live in Tapachula, Mexico.

Bill, tell us the situation, the numbers, everything.

WEIR: Well, we are in the town center of Tapachula. We are about 25 miles north of the river crossing that we showed you on Friday was that big standoff on the bridge. That line could not hold. The Federalis could not hold. The folks, most of them either figured out a way to swim across the river, took a raft across - all of that and now they're camped up here.

You can see this is the fountain in the center of town square. This was their encampment overnight. Folks now getting ready to hit the road once again, brushing their teeth, picking up their trash and packing up most of everything they own on this incredible journey and the price of those big crowds, I mean, there's security and safety in numbers, obviously. But the price of the optics that President Trump is using to try to paint all these folks as hardened criminals, as he said.

But I saw a mother literally dangling off a bridge yesterday or over the weekend. And I thought let's get to know this family and it will give you one little sample of the humanity and the determination of this migrant caravan. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

WEIR: After 24 hours stuck on a bridge between nations, the caravan finds another way. Most go back to the Guatemala side, they pay a few pesos for an inner tube ride while others pry a hole in the fence and jump.

While the stress of it all is too much for the sick and the weak, a few of the strongest manage to scavenge a ladder and rope and come back to help others down, including a mother named Rosalind (ph).

The migrants on the bank at the Suchiate gasp and cheer as she is lowered to the raft. "Si, si puede," they chant. "Yes we can." After a splash of relief from the heat and the thirst, she looks up anxiously for her babies, a five-year-old daughter named Candy, a three -year-old son named Carlitos. It is stunning to see him here because the day before, I spotted him playing inside the Mexican gate. The little boy was fascinated by the riot here and helmets and one member of the Federalis displayed touching humanity amid all the chaos. I assumed his family was among the lucky few allowed through for

processing, but they were actually separated from Candy in the tear gas panic. So, Rosalind (ph) went back to find her and another way north. What made you decide to climb on to that ladder?

[08:25:10]

ROSALIND (ph) (Through a translator): To complete the dream that I have.

WEIR: "This bridge, this river, they can't stop me," she says. "I am an all-terrain woman."

But there are people who see what just happened and would say you're using your child as a shield to break the law?

"I don't think we are abusing the kids," she says. We can't leave them at home. They have to eat. I want them to study, have a good future. I do this for my kids. I ask you with all my heart, wouldn't your mother do the same for you?"

Do you know that President Trump is threatening to use soldiers to keep you out he has even has separated families, he's taken children like these away from their mothers? You know this? She knows, but says, "We have faith in God. He has the final word."

In town, they are met with cheers from fellow travelers and a bit of Mexican hospitality. There is shelter here, advice from Human Rights workers and precious nourishment for the kids. She borrows a phone to call her mom. They're okay, she tells her, and are not turning back.

They will rest here for the night, waiting for the caravan's strength in numbers and are back on the road at dawn. From here, it is a 2,500-mile walk to America.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

BERMAN: What a look at those people, Bill Weir. Human beings, trying to find a better life. Obviously the President has been talking about this group of people. A lot of rhetoric coming from the administration. What impact does that have on the ground?

WEIR: Well, it's interesting, John. Some are very aware. Some actually have cell phones. But you've got to understand, most of these folks aren't checking Twitter, they're not watching CNN. They're some of the most impoverished, desperate souls in Central America.

And so when I ask them about these questions, they shrug and say, "Look, what other choice do I have?" I mean, I keep thinking back to this amazing poem by Warsan Shire called "Home" and it says, "Nobody leaves home unless home is the mouth of a shark. No one puts their kid in a boat unless the water is safer than the land. You run when you see your whole city running."

So for them, they say, we don't have any choice. But when you see that and when you realize, these people are going to walk thousands of miles in flip-flops, carrying their children, and I know we live in the age of conspiracy theories, but what would possibly motivate that other than pure desperation?

So, yes, they know it's there. They're willing to take their chances, but can you imagine that at the end of this two-month, three-month journey, having their children taken away, the heartbreak that must go into that? But all of this is calculated with having no Plan B, having no way to go home.

CAMEROTA: Bill, have you seen any of the numbers dwindling just because of the obstacles and because of the long odyssey? Have you seen people turn around to go back to where they came from?

WEIR: No, I mean, we don't know if that's happening. There was word that the Mexicans were providing buses and saying, "Look, we'll take you back to Honduras if you want to go." The First Lady of Honduras says that 3,000 have returned home. That's really kind of hard to believe. There are about 4,000 on the bridge, estimated or so. The Mexican government now is saying, there's 7,000 here. So the numbers may be growing, this may be gathering strength as it goes north. There may be other caravans joining it because it really is a sense of opportunity.

If you're thinking about going and you see everybody else going, this is my shot and a lot of people say, "We're just going to take it and see what the fates bring."

BERMAN: Bill, we're lucky to have you there on the ground to see for yourself what is going on and talk to these people, these human beings, who have decided to uproot their lives, maybe risk their lives to try to get to the United States. We appreciate it, Bill.

All right, we're just 15 days away from the midterms. Early voting begins now in some states. Which way are the winds blowing? Get an inside look at some of these numbers, coming up.

[08:30:00]