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Package Bombs Target Democratic Leaders, CNN. Aired 4-4:30p ET

Aired October 24, 2018 - 16:00   ET



ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

We begin today with breaking news in our national lead.

The FBI and other law enforcement agencies are trying to figure out who sent at least six suspicious packages to a number of high-profile targets, including former President Bill and Hillary Clinton in Chappaqua, New York, former President Barack and Michelle Obama in Washington, D.C., former Obama Attorney General Eric Holder, though it was sent to the wrong address, so it was sent back to the return address, which was oddly Democratic Congresswoman Debbie Wasserman Schultz in Sunrise, Florida.

Billionaire financier and funder of liberal causes George Soros in Katonah, New York, Democratic Congresswoman Maxine Waters on Capitol Hill.

And, of course, this device sent to CNN's New York headquarters and addressed to former Obama CIA Director John Brennan, care of CNN.

Now, minutes ago, the Time Warner Center, where CNN is located, was finally cleared by law enforcement and reopened.

It is early yet in this investigation. No doubt we will learn more details and perhaps assertions made by law enforcement at this hour will be ultimately updated.

Right now, law enforcement is describing many of the packages as containing rudimentary, but operative explosive devices, or bombs, meaning the intention appears to be mass murder.

And though we do not know the name or motive of any suspect, investigators have no doubt taken note of the fact that all of the targets are people that President Trump has strongly, publicly criticized.

The White House said today that President Trump is being constantly updated. Minutes ago, without mentioning any names of the intended targets, the president addressed the situation publicly.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The safety of the American people is my highest and absolute priority.

The full weight of our government is being deployed to conduct this investigation and bring those responsible for these despicable acts to justice. In these times, we have to unify. We have to come together and send one very clear, strong, unmistakable message, that acts or threats of political violence of any kind have no place in the United States of America.


TAPPER: We have a team of reporters and analysts covering every angle of this story. They're in New York and Washington and Florida, where the package to Eric Holder turned up.

But let's begin with CNN's Miguel Marquez. He's outside Time Warner Center, where CNN is located.

And, Miguel, law enforcement as of now, I think it's fair to say they have no idea how many bombs like these are out there.


That is the biggest concern right now. Are there more bombs out there? There is certainly a national hunt under way to figure out just who is responsible.


MARQUEZ (voice-over): This is the device sent to CNN's New York offices today, in an incident some are calling an act of terror today, packages containing explosive devices discovered in multiple locations around the country, many addressed to prominent Democratic officials and politicians.

BILL DE BLASIO (D), MAYOR OF NEW YORK: This clearly is an act of terror, attempting to undermine our free press and the leaders of this country through acts of violence.

MARQUEZ: The scene played out in part on live television, shortly after 10:00 a.m., when a fire alarm could be heard going off.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: They were explosive devices, and to have projectiles -- that's a...


SCIUTTO: Excuse me. That sounds like a fire alarm. We will keep you posted on that.

Tom Fuentes, if you're still hearing us here -- they're connected now?

MARQUEZ: A minute later, CNN anchors Poppy Harlow and Jim Sciutto were evacuating CNN's New York headquarters, along with hundreds of employees, tourists and New Yorkers from neighboring buildings. POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: There's a fire alarm here.

SCIUTTO: There's a fire alarm here. You might have heard it in the background. We're going to find out what the latest is here at CNN.

HARLOW: We will be right back.

SCIUTTO: We're going to be right back.

MARQUEZ: Authorities responded quickly and en masse.

JAMES O'NEILL, NEW YORK POLICE COMMISSIONER: Responding officers identified a device that appeared to be a live explosive device. Additionally, there was an envelope containing white powder that was discovered as part of that original packaging.

MARQUEZ: The package addressed to former CIA Director John Brennan, who has appeared on CNN air, but is not a CNN contributor. He's just one of many targets. Multiple other bombs were intercepted by authorities today.

One bomb mailed to former President Barack Obama's office in D.C., where the Secret Service found it during a routine mail screening before it made it to their home. Another bomb mailed to former President Bill and Hillary Clinton's home, north of New York City, also intercepted by the Secret Service.

A bomb sent to former Attorney General Eric Holder had the wrong address and was returned to Debbie Wasserman Schultz's office in Florida, because that was on the return label on the package.


Most recently, a suspicious package returned to Trump critic Congresswoman Maxine Waters was discovered at a congressional sorting facility in Maryland. And on Monday, wealthy Democratic donor George Soros also received a bomb.

A law enforcement official tells CNN that the initial examination of all the devices shows them to be constructed similarly. At least one of the devices appeared to contain projectiles, including shards of glass. The devices are rudimentary, but functional.


MARQUEZ: Now, there is no doubt that one person or persons are responsible for these, in part because of the return addresses. The return addresses for the Soros bomb, the Obamas, the Clintons, the one that came to Brennan here at CNN, all of them had the same return address, that of Debbie Wasserman Schultz, the former DNC chair.

So, officials looking at that, also the makeup of the bombs themselves to figure out and piece together who is responsible -- Jake.

TAPPER: All right, Miguel Marquez in New York, thanks so much.

CNN justice correspondent Evan Perez joins me now.

And, Evan, many of these suspicious packages had that return address of Congresswoman Debbie Wasserman Schultz, who obviously did not send these packages.

Why do law enforcement officials think the bomber likely did that?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Jake, I think part of what they're examining right now is that that is part of the message.

Now, as you said, they haven't identified that this is terrorism. But one of the things they will be looking at is whether someone had a political motive. Obviously, the thing that we have noticed for the packages that for -- most of the packages so far have been Democrats, people associated with the Democratic Party, or people who have been criticizing the president and his administration.

So that's where they're beginning their investigation. And so that part of the package, the package, the label that says Debbie Wasserman Schultz, is definitely one of the big clues that they're looking at, Jake.

TAPPER: And, Evan, sources telling CNN that the packages delivered to Soros and to CNN did not go through the U.S. mail. What do we know about that?

PEREZ: Right. Exactly.

And this is potentially a huge clue for investigators, the fact that this was a -- these were packages, the one that was delivered to the Soros address outside of New York City, was hand-delivered and put there in their mailbox. It was discovered by an employee of George Soros.

And so that's the reason -- that's why this morning the New York Police Department was already going, fanning out in New York City, including to the CNN building, to show people what that package looked like, because they wanted to alert people what these packages that might be arriving, what to look for, Jake.

They already were suspecting that there would be more of this. So that's the reason why I think investigators think that this could be a big clue, which is the idea that someone somewhere would have hand- delivered this means perhaps that person was involved in this.

TAPPER: And how sophisticated were these bombs, were these explosive devices?

PEREZ: They're not very sophisticated. But even an unsophisticated device can kill people.

The problem with this is that, you know, these devices could go off in the mail. And, you know, look, the person who is doing this, the people who are doing this perhaps, are targeting these officials, these Democrats, these critics of the president. But the people who are actually going to be hand-delivering or

handling these packages are mail carriers. They're low-level employees in the mail room. And so anyone could be hurt by one of these packages, Jake.

TAPPER: All right, Evan Perez, thank you so much.

Let's discuss with this supervisory agent James Gagliano on the ground in New York. Also with me in studio is Phil Mudd, who spent years in both the CIA and the FBI.

James, I will start with you.

What do you think the FBI agents assigned to this case are doing right now?

JAMES GAGLIANO, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: So, first of all, Jake, the big question is, who has purview for this?

And back in 1998, President Clinton be signed a presidential decision, Directive 62, that gives the FBI purview in potential acts of terror. And, again, from our perspective in law enforcement, we assume terrorism until proven otherwise.

So I was here this morning. I saw the emergency services unit or the NYPD, because they're the first responders, and they're great. They took a device out of the CNN building.

Look, the part of trying to figure out who did this is secondary to making sure there are no other devices out there, that there is no conspiracy afoot to mail more of these or deliver these, because crisis resolution, keeping people safe, the most important thing and of paramount concern to law enforcement.

The secondary aspect then is then to go through and try to pick -- piece together what happened. Every bomb-maker, just like a baker making a particular apple pie, has a particular signature, how they crimp their wires, the tool marks on the device, the taping that they use or how they put the return address on.


So investigators are going to be looking at these. The good news here, Jake, is nobody has been hurt. And, secondarily, the devices have not been exploded. Unless there is a controlled detonation later of them by the P.D. and the FBI, we now have that as a treasure trove of evidence going forward.

TAPPER: And, Phil, what other agencies, other than the FBI and NYPD, do you think are involved here, and what are they doing right now?

PHILIP MUDD, CNN COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: Let me give a couple examples, the Secret Service and Postal Service.

You look at the questions you would have in this case and I think the immediate question obviously is, what is the device? Are there fingerprints on the package? But, in the background, there are a lot of agencies involved.

On the Secret Service side, one of the questions you would have, have there been people in the past who have made threats that look like this threat, talked about these specific individuals, for example? Those people might have been subjects of the Secret Service in the past. Let's look through that vast amount of information.

Postal Service, they are really good at tracking packages. How do you track these packages? Did they go through the Postal Service? Where did they originate? Can we track it back to origination and figure out, for example, was there a postal clerk who saw the person, if the person went to an actual post office?

So you think about the FBI or local police. There's a ton of people looking at this, Jake.

TAPPER: And, James, I assume the presumption by the FBI and others right now is that all of these incidents are connected.

GAGLIANO: Jake, that's the important piece as we try to piece together who did this or whether or not there was a conspiracy. And what's important here is the link analysis.

Again, was there a team of people doing this or one individual in particular? Look, the thing about bombs, bombs are designed to inflict terror, because you have got the piece where, yes, they can injure you. There's three things that bombs do, the overpressure, which causes soft tissue damage, the potential shrapnel.

If it was a pipe bomb, were there nails or any other type of metal shards that could impale you? And, thirdly, the thermal effect. Bombs when they explode typically set off fires and people can perish that way.

Once we have established that the device is either inert or that this was a crude device, that the bomb-maker wasn't really skilled and it's not lethal, now the determination has got to be, who did this, who is behind this, or was this a false flag operation, or was this somebody literally just trying to send these devices out to cause terror and panic?

But before we can call it terrorism, that's got to come from law enforcement. So we have got to be very careful on what we call it until law enforcement says that definitively.

TAPPER: And, James, let me just follow up with what you said, because you said one of the things of many they will be looking into, law enforcement, is whether or not this is a false flag operation.

Explain what you mean by that.

GAGLIANO: Certainly.

So we know that some of the labels that were attached, the return address was Debbie Wasserman Schultz. Was this person sending these devices out, hoping that they weren't going to get through, there was not enough postage on them, or they were going to be rejected and sent back to that address?

Was this somebody trying to suggest or try to fool people into thinking that a Democratic politician would be mailing these out? Was this somebody on the other side of the political divide that was trying to stoke fear and make it look like this was coming from somebody on the left?

The device, from every special agent bomb technician in the FBI that I have spoken to today, and I have spoken to a number of them, has suggested this was rudimentary. This was so basic, it's almost like the person that mailed these out, Jake, wanted to be caught.

Why do I say that? Excessive postage on all of the devices. Too much tape or string. Just the manner in which it was put together. And the device that was found at CNN itself, we still don't know if it had the four bomb components in it, meaning a power supply, an initiator, a switch, and then actual explosives themselves.

But from the outside, it looks like a crudely packaged pipe bomb, which could either be PVC piping or some type of cast iron or some device like that. It just doesn't look like the signature of an experienced bomb-maker, somebody that knew what they were doing. A lot of theories afoot. We have got to be careful.

We can't call it terrorism yet until law enforcement comes out and does some link analysis and suggests that somebody mailed these for political or social purpose.

TAPPER: And, Phil, you know former CIA Director John Brennan. The package was sent to him, care of CNN. Of course, he doesn't work for CNN. He's not a commentator on CNN. He works for a different channel. How do you think he's doing? Have you managed to reach him?

MUDD: I have not talked about -- I can think of a couple things he would be thinking about, with some confidence. He's a tough bird. This is one of the toughest people I saw in 25 years in the business. I don't think he would look at this and say, I'm scared.

That said, he's been a prominent critic of the president. A lot of people are coming out today and saying, despite what the White House said, the president is responsible for things like going out at a political rally and saying it's OK for a politician to body-slam a reporter. That environment you create by saying things like that is not appropriate.

I wouldn't be surprised if John comes out, because he is in the political sphere, and says, you know, I'm not worried. I'm not scared. But we cannot have an environment where we suggest to people that it's OK to commit an act of violence against anybody, including a journalist.


And, of course, we don't know who did this. We don't know their motive. We have no idea. But it does come at a time that there's a hostile environment, and there's a lot of political violence against Democrats, against Republicans.


James Gagliano, given that these packages were sent all over the country, how are the various law enforcement agencies working together on this? I think you said that the FBI has a supervisory role?

GAGLIANO: Sure. The FBI is going to have purview, because again, Jake, we are assuming terrorism until proven otherwise. Now, people are getting into the weeds. Is this domestic terrorism? Is this some, you know, violent extremist group in the United States? Is this possibly something that was inspired or directed from something overseas?

We don't know yet. So what law enforcement is doing and I'm telling you right now, the FBI is working hand in glove right now with the New York police department, as well as Phil pointed out the postal inspectors, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. They have unexploded devices right now.

Now, they're going to take those apart, they're going to disassemble those. If those need to be control-detonated, meaning we need to separate the initiator from the actual explosives themselves, if there are explosives, that will take place there in a secure environment.

And then from there, as I said before, every bomb-maker has a signature. They're just like bakers. So, we're going to go through there. Is there something that fits the profile of a bomb-maker that we're familiar with? Was this something somebody took out of the anarchist's cookbook where they got information and decided to do something to make people fear?

Because remember, whether the device goes off or not, look at the panic that ensues. I mean, it shuts down a couple of city blocks here in Manhattan right behind me and people are concerned. That's what a terrorist wants to do. But before we can definitively state it's terrorism, we have to hear that from the FBI and the New York City Police Department.

TAPPER: And, Phil, let me ask you. When you look at this bomb, one thing that some people asked me earlier today was, how much damage can something that small do?

Now, my impression were covering Afghanistan and Iraq, a pretty small improvised explosive device can do a lot of harm. But what do you see when you look at that image?

MUDD: I see a couple of things. First, I remember back to when people started talking to me about things that weren't that sophisticated. Timothy McVeigh. Not a sophisticated human being. Oklahoma City, going back to the '90s, incredibly devastating.

I understand why we talk about the lack of sophistication. It suggests, for example, that there's not a huge conspiracy. Maybe that somebody didn't get training overseas. But the lethality of stuff like this can be tremendous. The other thing I think we haven't mentioned that I take away as an

analyst, regardless of the sophistication of the devices, somebody indicated intent. They're willing to take action to murder or maim innocents. So, if you say these aren't sophisticated, there's somebody with a mind out there who might say, if I didn't succeed today and they don't get me, I'm going back tomorrow. Intent is critical.

TAPPER: All right. James and Phil, stick around.

In the wake of this incident, President Trump sticking to his planned schedule today, including a rally this evening in Wisconsin.

Late this afternoon, the president held a previously planned opioid prevention event at the White House, where notably First Lady Melania Trump first made remarks on the suspicious devices. President Trump then spoke going off his prepared remarks, to say he's extremely angry and upset about what happened with these bombs.

CNN's Jeff Zeleny is at the White House.

And, Jeff, the president also said Americans must unify in light of this.

JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Jake, he did. He was standing in the East Room saying Americans must unify, they must come together. He said acts of political violence have no place in the U.S., but what he did not say is the fact that he is the very person often sowing these seeds of anger and distrust, going after the same people who are targeted today.


DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This egregious conduct is abhorrent to everything we hold dear and sacred as Americans.

ZELENY (voice-over): In the East Room of the White House, President Trump condemning the attempted act of violence today through explosive devices sent to CNN and high-ranking Democratic leaders.

TRUMP: The full weight of our government is being deployed to conduct this investigation and bring those responsible for these despicable acts to justice. We will spare no resources or expense in this effort.

ZELENY: The president issuing a rare call for civility.

TRUMP: In these times, we have to unify. We have to come together. And send one very clear, strong, unmistakable message, that acts or threats of political violence of any kind have no place in the United States of America.

CLINTON: But not mentioning that he is often the one sowing division.

Those targeted, the Clintons, Obamas, former Attorney General Eric Holder, Congresswoman Maxine Waters, Democratic donor George Soros and CNN, are all favorite subjects of attack by the president and his allies at campaign rallies.

TRUMP: But if you want the fake news to finally investigate Hillary Clinton, we'll just have --


[16:20:02] Man!


Don't worry, I don't like him either, OK?

Good old Maxine, low IQ individual.

ZELENY: And the president is routinely accusing his rivals of sparking violence.

TRUMP: The choice in November could not be more clear. Democrats produce mobs. Republicans produce jobs, right?

ZELENY: After briefings by federal authorities, the president did not echo the words of New York City mayor, Bill de Blasio, who said that package bombs were a clear act of terrorism. The mayor urging the president and all officials to cool their heated rhetoric.

MAYOR BILL DE BLASIO (D), NEW YORK CITY: All public officials of all partisan affiliations, don't encourage violence. Don't encourage hatred. Don't encourage attacks on media. This atmosphere of hatred is contributing to the choices people are making to turn to violence.

ZELENY: Republican Senator Jeff Flake of Arizona echoing the message from the Democratic mayor.

SEN. JEFF FLAKE (R), ARIZONA: We've got to tone it down. We've got to see people as opponents, but not enemies.

ZELENY: Thirteen days before the midterm elections, the attempted attacks carrying strong political overtones. Speaking in Florida today, Hillary Clinton, the recipient of one of the devices, praised law enforcement for stopping the package before it reached her Chappaqua home.

HILLARY CLINTON (D), FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: But it is a troubling time, isn't it? And it's a time of deep divisions and we have to do everything we can to bring our country together.


ZELENY: So what the president did not say today in the East Room was whether if he believes this is an act of domestic terrorism. We tried to ask him after that bill-signing event. He would not say.

Now, he has been receiving briefings, I'm told, throughout the day here at the White House, including from the director of the FBI. He'll be leaving the White House shortly. We'll see if he adds more on to this at all. But, Jake, the central question, as he heads to a campaign rally

tonight in Wisconsin, is his tone going to be the same there? Or is it going to be the call for civility that we heard in the East Room today coming 13 days before the midterm election? Jake?

TAPPER: All right. Jeff Zeleny, thanks so much.

I want to bring in CNN national security analyst, Lisa Monaco. She's the former assistant to President Obama for homeland security and counterterrorism.

Lisa, good to see you, as always.

You were homeland security adviser in 2013. When letters testing positive for ricin were sent to President Obama and to Congress, what's the process that the White House and authorities are likely going through right now?


So what happened there was the standoff facility, so the facilities outside the White House, outside Congress and at some distance, were able to fend off and see this and detect that envelope before it reached its intended targets. Now, what happened in that instance is I was immediately on the phone with the head of the Centers for Disease Control, with the director of the FBI, who was at that time Bob Mueller, and with a host of other officials in the government to figure out what did we know, what could we detect, was this a real source of attack in those envelopes?

And all of that is going on right now. I think my sense would be that right now the FBI is standing up a command post inside what's called the SIOC, Strategic Information Operation Center, in headquarters in the FBI right now, bring in information from where these packages were found or were mailed. All of that information is going to be pooled.

It's going to be shared back out with the White House, with the intelligence community, with the rest of the federal government national security team. So they are up to date on exactly what the investigators are finding. All of that is going to be pooled and is going to be reported almost as soon as it's gotten back out to the national security community.

TAPPER: You've also had threats directed at you specifically during your time of public service. What kinds of precautions might the public officials here, the Clintons, Obamas, Soros, Maxine Waters, Debbie Wasserman Schultz, Eric Holder, what might they be taking right now? What kind of precautions?

MONACO: So, look, I've been -- I was very fortunate. I never had any suspicious package mailed to me. I did have harassing mail sent to my home. And I was the subject, as was my family, the subject of threats from individuals who were later arrested. Thank you for the very good work by the Secret Service and federal, state and local partners on that. The Secret Service is exceptionally able. They, luckily, were able to

intercept this with regard to the mailings to President Obama and President Clinton. Obviously, that is not the case with regard to the mailings to former Attorney General Holder. He does not have Secret Service protection.

But those Secret Service agents and those protective details have protocols, some of which I'm quite confident they activated last night and this morning to be able to protect their protectees.

[16:25:11] They are going to be sharing information back with the local law enforcement community in the areas where their protectees are in order to thwart any subsequent attempts, and, again, feeding into that SIOC information operation center.

TAPPER: There are often scares when it comes to suspicious packages, but this device was described by a law enforcement official as, quote, rudimentary but functional. The NYPD said it appeared to be live, the one sent to CNN headquarters. What do you make of that?

MONACO: So, that's very concerning, Jake. I mean, rudimentary, but functional means rudimentary and potentially lethal. Certainly, the people handling that, unbeknownst to them, folks in the mail room, civilians who came into contact with those packages before they reached their intended destination, all of those individuals were potentially at risk.

So we're going to know a lot more as the investigation goes on, and as the commonality -- the potential commonality between those devices is understood and the investigation proceeds. But what I understand from the reporting thus far is rudimentary but functional could mean rudimentary but deadly.

TAPPER: The fact that there's a number of these packages, at least six. Does that give you confidence that law enforcement will likely be able to figure out who is behind this with so many clues?

MONACO: Look, I'm confident that the Joint Terrorism Task Force, which is going to be operating in each one of these locations and pooling information, which is, of course, FBI-led, but very importantly, Jake, has representatives from state and local partners in all of these jurisdictions. They're going to pool their information, their intelligence.

The common thread here seems to be this common return address. There will no doubt be leads developed about how these items may have been couriered. Some of them, I understand, as the reporting is coming in thus far, they were not actually mailed but may have been couriered.

All of those things are going to be potential leads and I'm very confident the FBI working with its state and local partners and other federal agencies like the ATF and other entities are going to be pooling those common data points and that's going to give them a lot to go on.

TAPPER: If you were advising President Trump right now, what would you tell him?

MONACO: Jake, I've been in that room, advising former president -- advising President Obama in the wake of the Boston marathon bombing, in the wake of this ricin attack, in the wake of mass shootings. The important thing is always to try and bring the country together, to explain to the country, this is what we are doing to keep you safe. This is what we know, importantly, this is what we don't know.

But very importantly, the job of the president in a crisis like this, in a situation like this, is to try and bring the country together, to appeal to the better angels of our nature. And that is the type of message that in the past I've been privileged to be a part of with the former president.

TAPPER: Lisa Monaco, always good to have you on. Thank you so much for your time and expertise.

I want to bring in CNN law enforcement analyst and former supervisory agent, Josh Campbell.

Josh, what will help investigators determine a clear motive right now?

JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: So there are a lot of clues here, mike. My dear friend Lisa Monaco talked about the commonalities. There is another set of commonalities investigators will be looking at in order to really dig into the criminology, into the mindset of the person who did this. And that is the target set, the people that were targeted, where devices were actually sent.

Now, I know some people will look at this through a political lens. Law enforcement officers won't care about the politics of it. But we can't lose sight of the fact that all of the targets here have these commonalities. They're all Democrats or in progressive circles or have been the subject of wrath from the president, from his allies and such.

So that's going to be key, because, again, investigators are trying to determine who is responsible. So the motivation will all go back to why was the person actually targeting these people, and in order to do that, you have to develop that target set.

I will tell you, Jake, one thing that is really troubling here, we've talked about the device and this crude nature. You know, we know that just because the device is unsophisticated doesn't mean it's not going to kill. But one of the larger I think threats here that is remaining that is still ongoing when you talk about the polarization, when you talk about the toxic climate is if it, in fact, turns out and we don't know, but if it turns out this person was acting because of the heated rhetoric, because these officials who were targeted were also facing wrath from, you know, politicians, then what that means is that there is a segment of the population out there that's predisposed to act on these violent tendencies, based on what leaders and based on what they're saying and what they're hearing and what they're tweeting.

So, again, that actually makes it more concerning for me as a former law enforcement officer. I'm not so much concerned whether this is a master bomb-maker. Either way, this person can be deadly, because if it turns out to be a mental issue or something of that nature, that still means that you have people out there that are taking in this messaging that are acting --