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Wolf

Suspicious Devices Sent to CNN, Clintons, Obamas, New York Governor, Ex-Attorney General. Aired 1:30-2p ET

Aired October 24, 2018 - 13:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: But when you have a former Attorney General of the United States, a former CIA Director of the United States, two former Presidents of the United States, a former Secretary of State of the United States and maybe some members of Congress, Debbie Wasserman Schultz, she may have been targeted as well, what does that say to you as an explosives investigator for the Federal government, at least you're retired now.

ANTHONY MAY, SECURITY AND EXPLOSIVES CONSULTANT: Basically, when we look at multiple devices that are sent through the community, we try to determine who was the target, what was the motive behind these devices being sent.

And for example, during the Austin bombing, the serial bombing that occurred several months back, investigators were looking at the pattern of the placement of those devices. In this particular case, it cannot be ignored that this is politically motivated. The term terrorism is being used, I would not suspect this as international terrorism, I would suspect this is, if we're going to label it terrorism, domestic terrorism would be the appropriate term. But I would not even go so far as calling it domestic terrorism yet.

BLITZER: Because there is still this investigation. This is obviously very, very early right now. Stand by, Anthony, Carrie Cordero is with us as well, our national security analyst, you have got some strong thoughts on where this is all heading.

CARRIE CORDERO, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, there is a question as to whether or not it would be domestic terrorism and I would think from the investigative standpoint, where they are going to be looking for is they are going to be looking at the forensic piece which you've been discussing a lot as far as the origins of the actual devices.

And then on a separate track, Federal law enforcement investigators and domestic terrorism investigators, I would expect that the FBI are going to go back and they're going to be looking at all of their ongoing cases for individuals who are politically motivated to carry out these types of acts, and there have been other cases just within the last few weeks that the Justice Department has brought regarding pipe bomb and individual pipe bombs. There was a case charged. There was another case charged with something, with a potential toxic device that they were -- toxic substance, excuse me that they were trying to use in a way. So these are cases that are ongoing and I would expect that it really would fall within domestic terrorism investigations that they're going to be looking at and they're going to be coordinating.

I would just add, there is no disputing that the targets of these particular devices as we have been reporting so far are all connected to individuals that the President specifically and his political allies have been attacking. And there is the President and his allies, they need to dial down the political rhetoric, they are making people less safe, they are making journalists less safe, and they are making law enforcement officers less safe because they are creating an environment where somebody and we'll find out whether this is an individual person or whether this is a network of people, because now we're seeing that these are attacks -- potential attacks taking place in various locations.

So there's a question as to whether this is just a lone actor or a network of individuals. But each time, this is generating an enormous law enforcement response who then has to handle these devices and needs to explore further to what extent this threat exists and track down the other devices.

BLITZER: Because I assume, Carrie, you're deeply concerned as recently as a couple of days ago, this week at a huge political rally, the President of the United States was once again encouraging the crowd when they were screaming, "Lock her up, lock her up," referring to Hillary Clinton, he was smiling and he was encouraging them with that chant.

Another time, they were chanting "CNN sucks, CNN sucks," he was smiling. He was encouraging that chant at a time when he refers to the fake news, he points to the pen where the journalists are located, he berates them and then he goes on and he actually suggests that the news media are the enemy of the American people.

CORDERO: Look, the news media is not the enemy of the American people, the news media is protected by the Constitution. It has a constitutional function to perform a check and balance on executive power and on believers of power.

And every time the President or other politicians attack members of the press, they're actually attacking the Constitution. They are attacking our system of justice and they are undermining the rule of law, and I understand that this particular investigation, law enforcement, will track down who the perpetrators of these potential -- these actual attacks and potential attacks are, but at the same time, there is a responsibility from political leadership to dial this all down and if the President has a rally tonight, he needs to start today.

DAVID GREGORY, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I think there is a general context here that is often incredibly heated. We have seen political figures targeted in restaurants, ran out of restaurants, those are mostly conservatives.

[13:35:07]

GREGORY: We see targeting in that regard. A lot of the people on the right throw around the mob violence or the mob mentality of more liberal protesters and the President's attacks on the press, CNN specifically. Let's remember that this is something that is very different. This is an attempted murder, this is an act of terror, this is perhaps coordinated, perhaps an individual, a group of individuals -- we don't know the answer to that. But this is a whole different order.

We need to get focused on what's real here and I agree with you. I mean, we've got to hold this broader context in mind about what the limits of our political fighting can and should be in this country of what it's always been. We have seen periods in our history of gross excess, but we also have to think about -- I remember back during this '90s in the Oklahoma City bombing, the way people hear certain kinds of attacks can motivate people to act in a way that is something we all need to think about.

SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: Can I just add something on what Carrie was saying, I mean, look, the FBI is all very much aware of the climate that we're in right now and they do look for these kinds of things, right? It's not always that they could bring charges against people for any kind of violence or inciting these protest situations, but they are very much aware of the climate and they have certainly done a lot of work to keep an eye on the people within this country who are prone to any kind of violence, political violence.

And make no mistake about this, they knew very early on Monday, after the George Soros thing that they were dealing with a politically motivated thing. I mean, certainly that's what they told me, and they started making every effort to try and let everyone know that there could be other targets.

The other thing is, they have a lot of work ahead of them here. They have a lot of evidence. We don't know exactly what other pieces of evidence they have uncovered in the other pipe bombs, but they have a ton of stuff to work in here from what they have recovered. They have the envelope, there are stamps on there, there's writing, and also one thing in talking to law enforcement in New York, they do believe that CNN was targeted as well. It may have John Brennan's name on this. but the point here is, the person put CNN on there.

So is this person really mistaken about where John Brennan works? Unclear.

GREGORY: It's interesting that there's a lot misspellings, right? Schultz was misspelled, Brennan was misspelled. But I think that's exactly right, and of course, this is a political target because everyone involved is political. It could be political motivation killing civilians and attempting to kill civilians.

BLITZER: The package that was sent to the former Attorney General Eric Holder was sent to the wrong address and as a result, they sent it back to the return address which was Congresswoman Debbie Wasserman Schultz's address down at Sunrise, Florida.

PROKUPECZ: And how lucky are we then than none of these has gone off. I mean, it's really -- they say that while it's rudimentary, but these are functioning devices, why they have not gone off, luckily and thankfully they haven't.

GREGORY: Well, when you think about the Unabomber, I mean, these were pretty rudimentary devices that killed and maimed even it was one person targeted.

BLITZER: But all the misspellings, sending it to the wrong address, suggest not a very sophisticated operation.

PROKUPECZ: No, I don't think anyone here thinks this is sophisticated. Look, the FBI just dealt with this out in the Austin area where they were dealing with packaged bags. They are good at this, so they're going to know probably -- well, they should know where this was sent from. There are stamps on there. They're going to go through every component on that bomb and try to figure out where was this purchased, who purchased it, where, what area?

We do have amount of clues, and even some of the devices that they had detonated, they will be able to gather clues from that and this here will be key for them I bet, in trying to determine who this person is. I mean, you can get fingerprints, there's black tape on there, the electrical tape. How many times we've heard about, this is the thing that kind of helps law enforcement find the suspect.

There could be fingerprints on there. There's all sorts of piping. There's wires. The stamps. The envelope, they're going to run down every lead and probably have a good idea at least in -- generally, probably within hours, if not already where some of this material was purchased, or at least what area and they could start zeroing in there.

BLITZER: When you say suspect, it could be suspects.

PROKUPECZ: It could be. This is really -- but the other thing is, this is such a scary situation right now for law enforcement, because they do believe there's potentially other devices like this out there.

GREGORY: But to your point, they have got so much great experience and they will work very fast to track this down. This is a pattern they have seen many times before.

BLITZER: Let's hope.

JULIE HIRSCHFELD DAVIS, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: And at some point, they're going to brief the White House and the President presumably on what they're finding. I know we're going to probably hear from him at an event at the White House in the next hour, but he does have a rally tonight in Wisconsin, and given that, beating up on the media, and also just this violent rhetoric of calling Democrats a mob of saying that they support MS-13 and criminals, of basically calling them radical and dangerous is such a staple of the way that he talks about his opponents.

It will be really interesting to see if he has some information about what has actually gone on here. Does he dial it back? Does he ratchet it up? And how does the crowd respond to that? BLITZER: I can't tell you how many people have gone to the President

quietly behind the scenes and appealed to him, don't do this anymore, don't go after the news media. Don't go after the Democrats and make these accusations that they simply want to see the United States in deep, deep trouble because it could cause ...

[13:40:10]

BLITZER: ... some strange people out there to take action on their own. This has been the fear and the President so far has refused to listen to all of that advice. I will be curious to see if he dials all that back shortly. We will monitor that obviously very closely. Kate Bolduan, you've been there since the beginning, you had to evacuate the Time Warner Center when those alarms went off. You've been there on the streets of New York ever since, what are you seeing now?

KATE BOLDUAN, ANCHOR, CNN: Right now, Wolf we're basically in front of the Time Warner Center, just a short distance from the entrance to our building here at CNN. I was here for the press conference between the Governor, the Mayor, the Police Commissioner, and after the press conference where they talked about that lives explosive device that was at CNN and all of the other locations that we're talking about, I was able to catch up with Governor Andrew Cuomo, and he talked about what you guys were just talking about on set, the heated rhetoric that's going on right now in the country, from politicians, the White House and he had his thoughts. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANDREW COUMO, GOVERNOR, NEW YORK: Do I believe the heated rhetoric, the toxic environment is part of this? Yes. We haven't done a full investigation, but a suggestion of the pattern is that they are politically related and I think that's a caution to all political officials, elected officials, candidates, and Americans. We can have political differences. We have always had political differences. That's what made America, America, but let's have our political differences with civility and let's avoid the hostility and the rhetoric and the rancor and the anger because we are at a boiling point.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: Yes, and to put a finer point on that boiling point where we were at, well, during the press conference, after the Governor had spoken, I was standing nearby some of his aides and something came in on their phones. They walked up to the Governor and showed him their phones. He found out during the press conference that a package -- a suspicious package had been sent and received to his New York office.

In that moment is when he found out about it. I asked him about it afterwards, he said they still need to get information. It came -- it was addressed to their New York office here in Manhattan and he said that there was a letter associated with it, but he didn't want to provide any more details beyond that, just putting a finer point on where things are at the moment. The Governor calling this an act of terror, Wolf.

BLITZER: Yes, an act of terror indeed, an act of potential murder as well as some very high ranking former US government officials including two Presidents of the United States, an attorney general, a former CIA director, former Secretary of State among others, and now Governor Cuomo is saying, his office in New York City received a suspicious package as well.

Pamela Brown now, our White House correspondent is getting some more information, what are you learning, Pamela?

PAMELA BROWN, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, we've learned Wolf that there are now five suspicious packages that law enforcement believes are all linked and one law enforcement source I was just speaking with described why that is.

One of course is the timing, when these packages were received, we know the five locations including the CNN New York bureau, George Soros, the Clintons, the Obamas, and now this mail facility, this Congressional mail facility in Capitol Heights, Maryland, a suspicious package was recently intercepted there. Bomb squads are looking at that and it's believed that it was from the same sender as the others.

So you have five packages now and based on the timing, based on the packaging, Wolf, we know several of these packages have the return address to Debbie Wasserman Schultz. Obviously, we do not believe she was behind this, but the similarities with the packaging, with the return address is another clue, and then of course what was inside of these packages. We heard there during the press conferences, the FBI believes that these are pipe bombs.

These were live explosive devices, while they may be rudimentary, they are still considered live explosive devices, so all of these clues, the timing, the packaging, the outside, as well as what was inside of these boxes are all clues that are leading law enforcement to believe that they are a link to be big concern of this hour, Wolf, as we have been saying is that there are more out there. I can tell you letters have been sent to members of Congress warning them, do not bring any unopened packages or letters into the buildings, just sort of reiterating what the protocol is, but there is a lot of concern, law enforcement is on heightened alert that there could be more than beyond the five packages, suspicious devices that we know about, Wolf.

BLITZER: Yes, a lot of suspicion that there are more out there yet to be discovered and I know that law enforcement, local law enforcement, state law enforcement, the Federal government all of them are on high alert ...

[13:45:10]

BLITZER: ... right now for this. Jim Sciutto and Poppy Harlow, they are outside the CNN bureau in New York City at the Time Warner Center. You guys, as our viewers probably know by now, you escaped, you were on the air, you were anchoring our coverage, when all of a sudden the alarms went off and you got out of there very quickly. POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: We did indeed. Jim and I are now on the

corner of 58th Street and 9th Avenue, about a block away from the CNN center. I can just give you one update, Wolf. As you know, about an hour and a half ago, they moved the device, the live explosive device up to the Bronx to check it, but they also found that envelope with white powder and we still don't know what that white powder was.

We've learned a few things. We know they are testing it inside of the mail room, because again, this made it into the Time Warner Center where CNN is located here in New York. They are testing it and we've just got an internal update because we're reporting on this story, but also living it. We have heard that at this point, the sweep of the Time Warner Center still continues. This is from internal communications.

As a result, it will take some time until we know more about the safety of the building. We will continue to keep you posted as we know more. That means there are still a lot of questions about safety, Wolf and that's why none of us are back inside of the building and we don't know when we will be.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, it's four hours since really the start of this and it's still a buzz of activity on 58th Street outside -- once this truck moves -- outside, you could see there, of where our office is.

And this white powder, it adds a big question mark, right, because the explosive device that has been removed, the white powders they tested, listen, it could be a fake. You have letters like this sent all the time, and that white powder turns out to be talcum powder or something.

But it could also be something worse. There's precedent of anthrax sent to news organizations. I was working at ABC News soon after 9/11 when our office in New York received an envelope that contained anthrax and it did affect a child of someone who worked there, so these are the questions that law enforcement now has to determine, is this a risk and that will take them some time because as they did with the explosive device, they're going to operate out of an abundance of caution.

BLITZER: All right, so I want you guys to stand by over there, because we're getting a lot more information, even as we speak, and Shimon Prokupecz is with us right now. And Shimon, walk us through, because you've done a lot of reporting on the investigation, how all of this unfolds?

PROKUPECZ: So what happens here is the FBI immediately after Monday night's incident at George Soros' house, starts to brief the joint terrorism task force, takes over the investigation, they start to brief other authorities, other police departments about what to look for in case there's similar packages. They sent out an alert. They sent out photos of things for look for, Wolf, and then what happens is obviously overnight, and then this morning, there are other packages that are discovered. One that was sent to Barack Obama and then one that was sent to

Hillary Clinton and immediately, they launch a bigger investigation, they then brief the joint terrorism task force, then briefs the NYPD, briefs other law enforcement that work on the joint terrorism task force. And immediately, the NYPD now knows what they're looking for.

They step up security at other areas within New York that are connected to Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton and also George Soros and then they get notified of a potentially suspicious package at our offices in New York and I was on the air with both Poppy and Jim as that started developing and I got word right away, someone had reached out to me and said, "Hey, I think you guys may have one in your building," and then within moments, you can hear the fire alarms start going off, and thankfully, the NYPD knew almost immediately that they were dealing with something that was very similar to the other devices because they had been briefed about what to look for.

And they just went into that mode of what to do, the bomb squad responded. They were able to remove this safely. It's now in the Bronx at their facility where they will be able to take a look at it. We will see if they are detonate it, usually in these kinds of situations, they detonate it and then they are able to gather all the forensics.

Some of this material is going to go obviously to the FBI because they are the ones that leading this investigation over at Quantico at the lab, and they are going to be able to try and connect and the dots from the wires to the tape, to the metal piping, to the envelope that was used, the stamps that were placed, so all of that, the FBI and the forensic teams in Virginia are probably going to go ahead and look into that, and then they need to really start piecing together as to how all of these are connected and they are going to be able to tell by some of the components in the bomb, some of the explosive material, the forensic and sort of -- explosive material has its own DNA kind of and they'll be able to start looking at that and seeing if it is similar is to what the other devices had.

[13:45:03]

PROKUPECZ: Clearly on its face from the pictures that we've seen, from the pictures that the FBI has seen and the NYPD, they all believe these are connected. But it will be the forensic materials certainly that will link all of this -- fingerprints, DNA -- those are going to be the key components here for the FBI.

BLITZER: So investigation is only just beginning. Senator Jack Reed of Rhode Island is with us. He is a member of both the intelligence and armed service committees. First of all, have you been briefed on these incidents?

SEN. JACK REED (D), RHODE ISLAND: No, it's been breaking so quickly that there's been no formal briefing and frankly, most of my colleagues are dispersed across the country.

BLITZER: Have you been -- has your office been warned? Be careful. Watch out what you're getting in the mail? REED: We have screening devices in place in the Senate and the House

and we are consciously alert for these types of packages that before it reaches us, it's been carefully screened.

BLITZER: But have they told you that there is a greater threat today as opposed to yesterday.

REED: We have not. I have not heard that directly.

BLITZER: Because they're apparently, they're looking at various -- at least one suspicious device addressed to somebody in the US House or Senate that they are looking at right now here in the Washington DC area.

REED: That could be the case. There's multiple targets and there could be many more. That's disturbing.

BLITZER: So what's your reaction when you hear that someone was sending bombs, acts of terror, potentially murder two former presidents, a former Secretary of State, a former Attorney General, a former CIA director and CNN and others presumably. What's your reaction to that?

REED: It is an attack on our government, our Constitution. These are people who have enjoyed the trust and support of the American people to lead us, two President as you point out, Secretary of State, and so it's not just an individualized attack. It's an attack on our system of government, our constitution, and as you pointed out and I think is quite obvious, some of this is a reflection of the base tone of debate and when the President of the United States is at a rally and smile as people chant "lock her up" or make direct attacks on the news media, that doesn't raise the level of debate, that lowers it and it creates this environment where these acts could take place.

And not only being an attack. I think the other thing I have to point, this is an act of profound cowardice. Someone is sending an explosive device anonymously to people who could be hurt, and this is something that is just disreputable.

BLITZER: And it's not just -- let's not forget, it's not just these individuals whose name was on the envelope, on the address, but there are postal workers, there are clerical workers. There are a lot of people who might have access, or might have to might have to deal with this and especially, as John Miller, the head of counterterrorism in New York with the New York Police Department says, there was suspicious powder found in these packages as well.

REED: I mean, it's unlikely that a former President of the United States will receive mail that has not ...

BLITZER: Secret Service will take care of it.

REED: So yes, a Secret Service agent, a public servant, a postal worker. In fact, one of the surprising things with five or six devices, they're fairly sophisticated if they didn't detonate en route. I mean, most times, these sort of homemade weapons, the danger is they'll detonate prior to their delivery.

But you're exactly right, these are postal workers. These are average men and women who are doing their jobs, and they could be the victims.

BLITZER: So what's your message to President Trump right now if he is watching you, what do you say to him?

REED: He has to stand up personally, not through a Twitter message or endorsing someone else's statement and very calmly talk about this is a threat to our Constitution and then he has to begin to raise the tenor of comments about public life here. He can't condone these chants of lock her up, et cetera. That's unpresidential. He has to now step up as a President and call us all to a much higher level of conduct and debate and discussion.

BLITZER: For him to acknowledge, for him to say, "You know what, I apologize, I was wrong, I didn't mean it, and those who think along the lines of what I was suggesting and are taking these kinds of dastardly steps, please don't do it," that's not in his nature.

REED: I don't think it is frankly. But at least he has to draw a clear line between this tenor of abuse and personal attack and acrimony and raise his discussion. He can set the example. He can start talking about policies based upon facts, based upon what's in the best interests of the United States. We could disagree about that. But it doesn't have to be personalized. It doesn't have to be really frankly a reality TV post going for ratings. He's got to be the president.

[13:55:01]

BLITZER: You've been in Washington for a while, you've been around for a while. Have you ever seen anything like this emanating, the kind of language from the President of the United States?

REED: No, all of presidents I've had the opportunity to work with, George Herbert Walker Bush, President Clinton, President George W. Bush, President Obama, have took it upon themselves to actually raise the level if they felt it was -- the public was sort of slipping into personalized attacks, and they did it in a very conscious way.

They looked upon the presidency as an office that had to be respected and their behavior had to reflect the kind of solemn and important duties a President performs.

BLITZER: I know you take this very seriously. You and I went to Iraq together several years ago. you're a former US Army Ranger. You work hard as a politician as a United States senator, but also you remember your military background. And it's very disturbing to see what's going on right now.

REED: I think it is. Because again, you think about the thousands and thousands of young Americans all across the globe that are dedicating themselves to our protection. I don't think they'd behave this way. They understand the respect and they understand the importance of what they say and what they do. BLITZER: Yes, they want some importance. Very poignant words from

the President, the Commander in Chief right now.

REED: Yes.

BLITZER: Let's see if we can hear that, Senator Reed. Thanks so much for joining us.

REED: Thanks, Wolf.

BLITZER: All right, Jim Sciutto and Poppy Harlow, you guys are on the scene for us in New York right now, go ahead.

SCIUTTO: Wolf, and you can hear the sirens. There is still a hype of activity around here as law enforcement continues to respond. We're joined now by James Gagliano, former FBI special agent. And I just want to ask you, now that this additional threat has been discovered, the white powder, not determined yet if that is an actual threat, but something they want to check out, how long and how will they determine if this is a fake talcum powder or something more concerning?

JAMES GAGLIANO, FORMER FBI SPECIAL AGENT: This is something they'll definitely test, probably not at the site. They'll probably take this up to Rodman's Neck and they'll do it there. Now, I'm not a chemist, but the way they look at these things, there's three things this could possibly be. One, is it could still be an explosive because plastic C-4 comes in a powdered form.

It could also be ricin and it could be anthrax. If it's those things, they'd be able to test it and determine that right away. It could also be talcum powder. A lot of times, people want to build a device, they're not setting up the build one that's effective, and they'll put something like in there to give the appearance of a dirty bomb.

HARLOW: Let's remind people the other packages that were sent to the former Presidents, et cetera that Jim and I reported on this morning before this happened at CNN were rudimentary but functional. That's our reporting. You have now seen, and I think guys in the control room, if we can pull it up on the screen what the actual package looked like that arrived here at the Time Warner Center addressed to CNN and John Brennan. What you have gleaned from looking closely at everything we can see on the picture on this package?

GAGLIANO: Okay, important clues here, Poppy and again, I'm just looking at the package talking to some of the former special agent bomb technicians that have worked these things. The way it looks on the outside, again, the way people send these things out, if they're amateur, there's generally a lot of tape or strings, excessive postage. Because the last thing a bomb maker wants is for that to be sent back to them. So they want to do that.

The device could possibly be either PVC piping, it could possibly be cast iron or something like that. Where bomb makers struggle is when they're trying to seal the device. This has two end caps on it and generally speaking, some of the explosive residue, black powder, something like that, gets caught in the threads, that's where bomb makers typically meet their demise while they're trying to put the device together.

Looking at the device, talking to special agent bomb techs within the FBI and with the New York Police Department, they're telling me that that looks clearly like an amateur device. It's sad but since 1971 obviously, you find these recipes in places, whether they are books or online and unfortunately, that's where somebody that this does not look like from the outside of this like something that somebody that had experience in this would have put together.

SCIUTTO: So now you have multiple devices that you've discovered. You have in your possession, now, that you can test for information, intelligence. You also have a pattern of targets here. Does that give you enough -- and again it's early -- to potentially find who sent these things?

GAGLIANO: Yes, with a caveat. Now, the number one thing that police are doing, we hear the sirens in the background, make sure that no one gets hurt, crisis resolution. Make sure that there is no more devices out there, stop people in their tracks and people that are looking at devices or potential devices right now, oily residue on a package, stamped do not x-ray or fragile, excessive tape, those are things to be keyed in on. The second piece is content management, how are we then going to do the investigation to find out the people that did this. Every bomb maker, they're just like bakers, they have their own special signature, how they crimp the wires, the tool marks, how they tape it up, how they type out the addressee on there.

HARLOW: And what that does that indicate as to how this may be tied to all of the others, James, thank you for expertise. We're going to stand by, Jim and I here again.

[14:00:10]