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Fate of Mueller Probe; Mass Shooting in California; Midterm Aftermath; Democrats Taking on Trump; Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired November 08, 2018 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[08:30:00] JEFFREY TOOBIN, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: You know, yesterday, General Kelly, the White House chief of staff, calls the attorney general and says, the president wants your resignation. This was yesterday, Wednesday. And Jeff Sessions says, you know what, can I have until the end of the week? And Kelly says, no, you have to leave today.

Now, you're someone who's been around a long time. What do you think of that?

KEN STARR, LED INDEPENDENT COUNSEL INVESTIGATION ON PRESIDENT CLINTON: That's poor form. It's not very attractive. I mean this is the part of the president that if I were his adviser, I would be fired, because I would say don't tweet this and don't tweet that. The people who like your policies, overwhelmingly 80 percent to 85 percent of your policies, who love the fact the economy -- I'm not here to be a shill (ph) -- who are -- love what's happening in the economy, the dynamism, the animal spirits in the economy and so forth. But let's get with this rule of law set of issues, right?

You're the president of the United States. You took an oath of office, mentioned the Constitution, talked about Abraham Lincoln, but I haven't been hired.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

STARR: So it's a different style. We'll have elections in 2020. But here's the thing, the department has -- and this is one of the things I know think Judge Gonzales, Alberto Gonzales, has mentioned this, and it's very -- one of the most important points. The new attorney general is going to have advice, ethical advice, the same office that advised Jeff Sessions is now going to be advising Mr. Whittaker. And that's why Jeff Sessions recused himself because he was advised, you need to recuse yourself from the Russia investigation.

CAMEROTA: Well --

STARR: Let's see what happens when that office has -- they're not going to rush to judgment. They're going to take all the facts and assess all those facts and then say, Mr. Attorney General, here's what you should do. You don't have to do it.

CAMEROTA: Maybe. Maybe.

STARR: No, not maybe. It will -- it will happen.

CAMEROTA: I mean but maybe they'll also see how well it worked for Jeff Sessions, that whole strategy.

STARR: Well, yes, but he did recuse himself.

CAMEROTA: He did.

STARR: In other words, Jeff Sessions did the right thing.

CAMEROTA: And then he got fired.

STARR: Right. And the president should not have held that against Jeff Sessions.

CAMEROTA: But he did.

STARR: You're right. No, he -- that was the --

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: Do you think -- do you think --

STARR: No, you're right.

CAMEROTA: I mean the point -- I mean, Ken, we've got to go is that the norms -- all the norms that you're laying out and outlining have been broken.

TOOBIN: Based on what you know, do you think Mr. Whittaker should recuse himself on the Russia investigation?

STARR: I don't know. I don't know enough. I do know this, you can set aside your opinions, what you had as a private citizen. He did not express those opinions as the chief of staff to the attorney general. And he was behind, again, my vail of ignorance, he did not know what Bob Mueller knows. I don't know what Bob Mueller knows. And when you sit in a room -- and I've actually been the acting attorney general -- and you are briefed by FBI agents, career prosecutors and the like, you then say, oh, my word, my loyalty is to the Department of Justice, to the Constitution of laws of the United States and that's why Elliot Richardson resigned, rather than fire Archibald Cox.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

STARR: Why Bill Ruckhouse (ph) resigned rather than fire Archibald Cox.

CAMEROTA: Right. You hope that that's what people say.

But, Mr. Starr, thank you.

STARR: You're welcome.

CAMEROTA: Thank you for laying all of this out. And your -- the scenarios, as you see them, we appreciate your expertise on all of that. STARR: Thanks, Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: Thank you, Jeffrey Toobin, for playing along and the --

TOOBIN: You know what, it's always a pleasure to ask Ken Starr questions.

CAMEROTA: Good. I think that --

STARR: Thank you, Jeffrey.

TOOBIN: I mean there's a guy whose -- I mean, seriously, Ken Starr has been at the center of these things for 40 years, as he points out. And, you know, he's been there.

STARR: Thank you.

CAMEROTA: Thank you.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: All right, we do have breaking news this morning. A mass shooting in California. Twelve people dead, including a sheriff's deputy being hailed as a hero this morning. We have new details, next.

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[08:37:41] BERMAN: The breaking news this morning, 12 people have been killed, including a sheriff's deputy who rushed to the scene, in Thousand Oaks, California. Another mass shooting in this country.

CNN's Nick Watt is live at the scene with the very latest.

Nick, what have you learned?

NICK WATT, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, medical examiners are trying to identify the 11 people who were shot dead inside the Borderline Bar and Grill, and they're also trying to identify the gunman, who was also found dead inside the building. It seems to be of a self- inflicted gun wound. They are trying to identify him using fingerprints, using perhaps identifying tattoos.

Now, we've also just heard some more details about the timeline of how this happened. The first calls, the first 911 calls were at 11:19 last night. Within three minutes, a Ventura County sergeant was on the scene, along with a California highway patrolman. Three minutes later, they tried to make entry into the building. They could hear the gunfire. They were trying to get in there to help. They were met with a hail of bullets, and that sergeant was hit. He was dragged back by the highway patrolman, but he died later in the hospital of his injuries.

Now, we've also been speaking to a number of eyewitnesses who were in there who were clearly shocked. This was a country music college night. They were line dancing at the time. Now, they tell us they did not hear the gunman say anything, either before he opened fire or during the firing. They describe him as an average build. He was wearing black clothing, and he was carrying a short-barreled handgun.

Now, the county sheriff's department has told us that they have found one firearm in the building that they believe belonged to the gunman. And they're also looking into eyewitness reports that we've heard also that there were smoke bombs involved.

Now, a lot of people did manage to get out. They hid under pool tables. They waited for a break in the firing and they smashed the windows and ran for their lives. But 11 people killed by this gunman in here and that sheriff sergeant also dead.

Back to you guys.

CAMEROTA: Oh, my gosh, Nick, we pray that the parents there who are waiting for some word can get word of their loved ones whereabouts very soon.

Thank you so much for the reporting from the scene.

[08:40:00] So, back to politics. What does a divided Congress mean for the next two years? Well, Mitch Landrieu will give us his take, next.

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BERMAN: We do have some breaking political news. The Democrats just picked up another seat in the House of Representatives in a very high profile congressional race. Georgia 6, Representative Karen Handel, the Republican, just conceded the race to her Democratic opponent, Lucy McBath. You will remember, this was the seat where there was that special election a year ago. Handel narrowly beat John Osoff for that seat, keeping it in Republican hands. Now in Republican hands no longer.

Fascinating, Democrats have actually picked up a number of seats since the polls closed on Tuesday night.

Joining me now is a former Democratic mayor of New Orleans, Mitch Landrieu.

Mayor, thank you so much for being with us.

We're going to get to politics in just a moment.

MITCH LANDRIEU (D), FORMER NEW ORLEANS MAYOR: John -- yes, thank you.

BERMAN: But I want to get your reaction to what happened overnight in California. A mass shooting at a bar. Twelve people killed, 11 days --

LANDRIEU: It's just --

BERMAN: Eleven days after 11 people were killed in a synagogue.

LANDRIEU: Yes, I have a couple of thoughts. First of all, as a father, my wife and I have five kids and I have a son that's a freshman in college. And my heart goes out to Cody's father. I saw the interview earlier about the agony and the pain that he's in. Also as the mayor of a major American city, there were a number of mass shootings in New Orleans, and right now the first responders who did a great job, thank you for their work. To the officer who was killed, thoughts and prayers to his family.

[08:45:18] But right now those parents are panicked about where their kids are. And I have no doubt that there are great emergency room physicians who are working on the wounded and then trying to figure out a way to get notification to their family. So it's a very traumatic, very emotional thing.

But, John, I want to make a point to the American people that we don't think about. As we think about these individuals who were killed, sometimes the big numbers numb us. Since 1980 in the United States of America, we have had 630,000 American citizens killed on the streets of America, including suicide, from this kind of public violence. And it is something that we really do have to take a minute to look at, to really dig down deep on, and then to think through the very difficult policy prescriptions that could help make the country safer.

BERMAN: And such was the case 11 days ago after Pittsburgh.

LANDRIEU: No question.

BERMAN: And such was the case eight months ago before that in Parkland.

LANDRIEU: It's going to -- it's been going on -- and it keeps going on. And it's going to continue unless we stop it. And there is a lot that we can do as a country that's just not about guns, but it's also about substance abuse and mental health and law enforcement and treating violence like a public health threat or we're going to continue to have these unbelievably heart-breaking tragedies that, of course, that we see today.

BERMAN: And there's a lot we can do. There's a difference though between can and will.

Mayor, if I can --

LANDRIEU: There's no question about that.

BERMAN: If I can shift gears to politics.

LANDRIEU: Sure.

BERMAN: Tuesday night. What was the lesson for Democrats from the election Tuesday night? Picked up a lot of seats in the House.

LANDRIEU: Correct.

BERMAN: Lost a number of seats in the Senate. So what do you take away?

LANDRIEU: Well, first of all, I think that the American people spoke loudly and clearly that they wanted a Congress that was going to do its job in a couple of different ways. First, exercise its independence as a third branch of government and check the president when he goes outside of the guard rails, which he is one to do on a more frequent basis. The second was to send really a message, and a big one, where the American people who were afraid of losing their health care because they were going to be excluded for pre-existing conditions. And three states, three states against the wishes of Republican governors enacted Medicaid expansion. So that's a big, big, big deal that has been overlooked.

The third thing is, they want people to go to Washington and start working together to get things done. I think they're tired of the gridlock. And, unfortunately, Washington has been broken for a very long period of time. So it's my hope that the new Democratic elected members that represent a much more diverse look for the United States of America is going to go to Washington, find partnerships and start to get the work of the American people done.

BERMAN: So the news over the last 24 hours is also the president fired the attorney general, Jeff Sessions.

LANDRIEU: Yes.

BERMAN: Put in a loyalist to run the Justice Department and oversee the Russia investigation. So given the Democratic prescription you just offered there, how should Democrats handle that? How should the Democratic House handle that? Is he baiting them?

LANDRIEU: Yes. Well, there's no question that he is. You know, he says -- this president is just a strange gay -- I'll work with you if you do everything I say and if you don't I'm just going to beat you in the head. That's kind of a hard person to work with. Notwithstanding that, there will be Republican House members and Senate members that will want to finally get together and try to work. And so they should work with the president and the opposing side when they can. And on principles like this, where the president, who clearly has the authority to fire an attorney general, but does it in order to thwart the investigation, then that's a problem. I think Ken Starr talked a lot about this. I know the attorney general talked about it a little bit earlier. And it's just a real problem the way he's approaching this particular issue. And they ought to stand up to him when they should.

BERMAN: So Democrats should stand up to him how? Because what you do here, some Democrats say, we don't want to go crazy with the investigations. So what's the right amount in this case?

LANDRIEU: Well, listen, I'm not in Congress and I would never, you know, try to give them suggestions about how to go forward. As a legislator for 16 years, I think you have to use your prerogatives as a legislative body to do what you think is right. When you can find compromise, you should always do that. I think sometimes on the Democratic side we think compromise is a bad word when you're governing and you have to get things done. The American people get frustrated when we can't get things done.

For example, infrastructure is a huge problem in the United States of America and we're looking to Washington, D.C., to get together to figure that issue out. And there are thousands of other issues. So Congress has got to do a bunch of things at one time. The investigations may or may not be important depending on what the facts and circumstances show. They can do two things at once, and they ought to be thoughtful about how they do them.

BERMAN: All right, Mayor Mitch Landrieu, thanks very much for being with us. Appreciate it.

LANDRIEU: Great. Thank you.

CAMEROTA: All right, let's bring in our CNN political analyst, David Gregory, and CNN political commentator Ana Navarro.

Great to have both of you.

So let's just rewind the clock if we could to 24 hours ago and what a head-slapping day it was, Ana, on every level. First there was the midterms, the historic midterms. We were just kind of still getting in returns and results and seeing what happened and it felt as though the president had waited until minutes after finding out that Republicans had secured the Senate to getting rid of his -- the long itch that he's wanted to scratch and getting rid of Jeff Sessions. And he did it immediately. And he put in someone who has said on TV that he thinks that Mueller's scope should be limited.

[08:50:21] Where are we now?

ANA NAVARRO, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: We are one day after that. And, look, I think you're right, the cynicism of the timing of this is, you know, if it wasn't Donald Trump, would have us all by surprise. But because it is Donald Trump, it's normal. He knows that had he fired Jeff Sessions before this, it would have affected some of the races because people do not want a rubber stamp Congress. People want a Congress that acts like an independent, co-equal branch of government and exerts some supervision over the man baby in the White House.

And, listen, if he does fire Mueller -- and let's understand something, Jeff Sessions did absolutely everything that Donald Trump wanted, on immigration, on curtailing LBGTQ rights on voter suppression. He did everything. There was one thing that irritated Donald Trump, and it was his recusal from the Russia investigation. That was his one thing. His one thing, OK? And so there is no doubt that the reason that he got rid of Jeff Sessions is to undermine this investigation.

Earlier this year, it was passed out of Senate Judiciary Committee, S- 2644 (ph), the Senate -- the Special Counsel Independence and Integrity Act to protect Bob Mueller from a trivial, you know, revengeful firing from Donald Trump. Republicans should do themselves a favor, Republicans should do their country a favor, and they should bring this to a vote at the floor of the Senate today. They should do it immediately. And, you know, allow us not to be put into the position of having Donald Trump fire Bob Mueller.

BERMAN: The thing is, is that the issue isn't necessarily even firing Bob Mueller because now the president's found a way to neuter him. He's put in Matt Whittaker as the acting attorney general, who has oversight over the investigation and can cut off the money. He can say no if Mueller wants to issue indictments. He can pocket whatever report Mueller hands him, never give it to Congress, never make it public at all. He now has that power. Matt Whittaker, who has written about how he does not approve of the Mueller investigation.

And, David Gregory, so not only did the president take legal action yesterday, he issued a political threat.

DAVID GREGORY, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Right.

BERMAN: Because he told Democrats who will be taking over the House, you know, if you come after me on Russia, I'm going to come after you. And when he was saying that, he knew he had already fired his attorney general and put in his own guy to oversee Russia.

GREGORY: Well, and pull back and think about what he's saying. You had Democrats who have taken control of the House, whose job, as the executor -- as the legislative branch is to provide checks and balances on the executive branch. And he is saying to Democrats in the House, oh, I'll work with you. But, by the way, if you investigate me, I won't work with you. And on top of that, I will use any Senate majority to investigate you and thwart your constitutionally protected power.

And at the same time is signaling that he can, of course, fire Mueller. But, as you said, put into place the potential now to either curtail the investigation, impede the investigation, force it to a conclusion.

And here's another big point. People say, well, this is pretty far along here. And this will most likely culminate in a report to Congress, which is what the statute calls for. The person who now oversees that investigation, oversees and decides whether that report becomes public, goes to Congress, leaves his office, is now the Acting Attorney General Whittaker, who has criticized the investigation.

And it's also important to note this as a question, as we think about, as Ana says, what is Congress going to do? What about senators, Republicans, leaders who have said that Mueller should finish his work, what are they going to do? If Congress -- if they, the House, wants to subpoena a report, if it comes to that, that could be withheld. There could be a fight over executive privilege.

And what can Bob Mueller do? People should member that Mueller, in his capacity as a prosecutor, is legally bound not to talk about what he has learned in the grand jury. So is it a potential outcome here that we learn nothing about what has happened in this investigation? Those critical questions have to be asked at this point.

CAMEROTA: Ana, just on that one note about the president saying two can play at that game in terms of the investigation, can the president instruct the Senate to investigate Democrats that he doesn't like? Is that how this works? NAVARRO: It seems to me this president can get away with doing a lot

of things when it comes to Republicans. And, listen, he didn't just threaten Democrats yesterday. Remember, he also spiked the football and gloated over the loss of Republicans who had not given him enough love.

[08:55:04] GREGORY: Right.

NAVARRO: Who had maybe dared to confront him. And I think it was a very clear message to republicans still in office, should you not stand with me, should you not be blindly loyal to everything I do, you, too, could suffer this fate. Yes, we heard him yesterday say he had retired Jeff Flake and take pride in it. We heard him read off a list of Republican Congress people who probably would have won their seats, including my friend Carlos Curbelo, who last name he can't even pronounce correctly, because -- who lost their seats because of Donald Trump. And he was happy about it. He was taking a victory lap.

GREGORY: And he blew off support from the -- those kinds of Republicans, suburban Republicans, more traditional Republicans.

NAVARRO: Right.

GREGORY: They actually were with him in 2016, which people forget. And he's saying, don't need you.

BERMAN: All right, David Gregory --

NAVARRO: But if the Republican Senate cowers to Donald Trump's threats, they might as well just hand over their souls, along with other body parts, to him.

BERMAN: Well, just look at Lindsey Graham's comments over the last two years on that subject. I think there's no reason to believe at this point that they will stand up here, but we'll see.

A lot of news this morning. A mass shooting in the United States. Twelve people dead. We have new details right after this.

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