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President Trump Supports Saudi Arabia Despite Khashoggi Murder; More Stock Market Volatility; Ivanka Trump Used Private Computer for Government Emails; Russian to Head Interpol? Carlos Ghosn's Troubles. Aired 2-3p ET

Aired November 20, 2018 - 14:00   ET


[14:00:00] HALA GORANI, CNN HOST: Hello, everyone. Live from CNN London, I'm Hala Gorani. Tonight, maybe he did and maybe he didn't. That is what

the U.S. President is saying about the Saudi crown prince's knowledge of Jamal Khashoggi's murder in an extraordinary and unusual statement.

Also tonight, it is another wild day for stocks. It's been down more than 500 points for the Dow. We have the latest on what is fueling this, all

the gains for the year wiped out.

And remember how using personal e-mail for government business caused such a fuss? In 2016. Well, it's happening again but this time it's Ivanka

Trump under scrutiny.

Standing with Saudi Arabia. We start this evening with a stunning declaration from the President of the United States in an explosive

statement from the White House released just in the last hour, the President has backed Saudi Arabia despite the murder of journalist Jamal

Khashoggi. He begins, quote, "The world is a dangerous place" with an exclamation point. There it is and then signaled he won't punish Saudi

crown prince Mohammad bin Salman over the killing.

He does however concede that the crown prince may have known about the murder and the statement undercuts the findings of his own intelligence

officials after sources said the CIA concluded that the murder was ordered by the Saudi ruler. It comes as the President is expected to receive a

full report on the murder sometime today.

So, the President continues to refuse to link the controversial crown prince to this crime and this time he's put it on paper. Let's bring in

Sarah Westwood at the White House for us and CNN's military and diplomatic analyst John Kirby in Washington, as well. Sarah, first of all, this is a

very long statement with lots of exclamation marks. The first paragraph strangely even though it is a statement on Saudi Arabia starts with Iran

and its role in the region. What was behind this statement? Why did the President feel the need to issue a statement that's so strongly supports

the U.S.'s ties with Saudi?

SARAH WESTWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Well, Hala, as you mentioned the President focused repeatedly on Iran throughout that statement because Iran

and countering Iranian influence in the Middle East underpins a lot of the President's foreign policy in that region, it is part of why his

administration this realignment with Saudi Arabia in the first place. The President preparing to leave town for Mara Lago for the holidays in just a

couple of hours and releases a statement as he's awaiting a CIA assessment about what the intelligence community has learned to date as to who was

involved in the murder of Jamal Khashoggi in early October.

I want to read you part of the statement that the President released. It says, "King Salman and Crown Prince Mohammad bin Salman vigorously deny any

knowledge of the planning or execution of the murder of Mr. Khashoggi. He went on to say our intelligence agencies continue to assess all information

but it could very well be that the crown prince had knowledge of the tragic event, maybe he did and maybe he didn't."

Of course, this is on the heels of reports that that CIA assessment is going to conclude with a relatively high confidence that the Crown Prince

Mohammad bin Salman did have direct knowledge that the murder was going to take place and this is the President facing pressure from a bipartisan

group of lawmakers on capitol hill to take stronger action against Saudi Arabia, so the President positioning himself before leaving town to keep

the hands off Saudi Arabia if the news emerges that the crown prince was involved, Hala.

GORANI: And, John Kirby, this entire statement is about taking the pressure off Saudi Arabia, first pointing the finger at Iran before saying

anything about Saudi and then repeating what some have called definitely a smear coming from the Saudis in this paragraph. Representatives of Saudi

Arabia saying that "Jamal Khashoggi was an enemy of the state and a member of the Muslim Brotherhood. But my decision is in no way based on that."

What do you make of the fact that he included that in this statement?

JOHN KIRBY, CNN MILITARY AND DIPLOMATIC ANALYST: He is trying to grant I think credence to the Saudi government's argument that Khashoggi was

somebody to worry about and therefore we were justified trying to strong arm him at least to get back to Saudi Arabia and perhaps even to cause him

physical harm. But I think Sarah had her finger right on the button when you went to her first, Hala, and that is, this isn't just about easing

pressure on Saudi Arabia.

[14:05:00] It is about easing pressure on Donald Trump because he knows Congress will force his hand. The Senate Foreign Relations Committee led

by a Republican, Bob Corker, already made clear that they're not going to stand for this and hold the Saudis much more accountable than the

administration has already done and he knows that so this gets him off the hook and say to King Salman and the crown prince, I'm on your side and not

pushing this further and the congress is forcing my hand and this is about getting in front of the news cycle and ask questions after the briefing

from the CIA and, B, letting himself off the hook.

GORANI: But also, Sarah, in the third paragraph the President discusses these arms sales and these promissory notes from the United States. He's

talking about billions and billions of dollars. To justify, you know, not necessarily punishing Saudi Arabia. And also, saying if the U.S. doesn't

sell these weapons, well, they'll get them from somewhere else.

WESTWOOD: That's right. The President tweeted that arms deal that he struck with Saudi Arabia last year as a reason why he was slow walking the

response to Saudi Arabia. He was asked about the news that the CIA had assessed Mohammad bin Salman was involved with the murder on Saturday and

he said that he's President. He has to take a lot of things under consideration and one of them was that arms deal although he cites numbers

higher than the number of jobs and amount of money that's really come to fruition since that deal was struck and the President has really been

focused on the strict and strategic value of the relationship with Saudi Arabia over the more diplomatic and the human rights concerns involved with

that relationship and so that's why the White House is coziness with Saudi Arabia to come under scrutiny even before the Khashoggi murder, Hala.

GORANI: Is this it, John, as far as the administration is concerned? No sanctions beyond the individuals sort of individually and personally

sanctioned by the United States for alleged involvement?

KIRBY: I don't think it is, Hala. Not at all. I think it may be all you get proactively out of this White House but I don't think what you're going

to get out of the United States government. Congress I think will take a hard look and see this intel assessment and find it hard to believe they

won't want to take additional actions perhaps even against the crown prince himself. The statement is full of caveats and misleading statements. The

arms sales, I mean, just a promissory note and they won't run into the arms of the Russians and Chinese because they want U.S. arms material. Ours is

the best in the world and what they're trained on and already use and the idea to scare everybody away from the arms sale deal going south is just

not credible.

GORANI: But, John, of course, this is not just the United States. Apart from Germany, every country doing arms sales with Saudi Arabia did not halt

the business dealings or suspended any contract with them, as well.

KIRBY: Yes. Look, nobody's suggesting -- I don't think even the staunchest critics to torpedo the bilateral relationship between United

States and Saudi Arabia. Or between Saudi Arabia in some of their Western partners. They are a strong partner in the region. They have been a key

member of the coalition to go against ISIS. There's a lot of reasons why we need to keep the relationship moving forward. But there's -- but it's

absolutely inconceivable I think to think that the relationship shouldn't be altered and not changed in some significant ways as a result of what

they have done to Jamal Khashoggi.

GORANI: All right. John Kirby, thanks so much in Washington. Sarah Westwood at the White House, thanks to both of you with the very latest on

that. I want to go to the region now. Sam Kylie joins me from Abu Dhabi with that reaction. This must be a relief to Saudi Arabia and the crown


SAM KYLIE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Not just to Saudi Arabia or the crown prince, but indeed, many or in fact all of without

exception the Sunni allies of Saudi Arabia and that's pretty much the whole Sunni Arab world will breathe a sigh of relief that Donald Trump is really

echoing exactly what is felt in this part of the world. As you know well, Hala, this is not a region that particularly at a government level values

human rights. It values a success. It values survival.

[14:10:00] And it values commercial relationships and above all recently it values a Sunni -- pursuit against Iran and opened the statement with Iran

and I don't think there's going to be anything other than a support and relief from countries like the United Arab Emirates right across to much

more liberal regimes such as the Jordanians. The Jordanians are economically dependent on Saudi Arabia. And the other thing to bear in

mind here is for all of the desire to punish the crown prince of Saudi Arabia, to make some kind of an example of him in the view of many of his

critics if there is any kind of proven link to him to the murder of Jamal Khashoggi, we have to remember that what's waiting in the wings in terms of

an opposition in Saudi Arabia are not a bunch of bearded liberals. They're a bunch of bearded fundamentalists, strongly Wahhabi. Hardline


The crown prince moved the country out of their clutches into his clutches and in his view and in the view of his supporters he's the only person

who's strong enough to drive forward a reform movement. It may be somewhat ironic in this a most ghastly sense given the murder of Jamal Khashoggi but

that's the real politic of this region all the way from Jerusalem right through to Bahrain. There will be celebrations really in support of Donald

Trump's position. Hala?

GORANI: Right. Also, the jailing of many of the activists, some of the female activists who fought so hard to get women behind the wheel, for

instance, are also being detained. What's interesting in this statement, Sam, is that some of the talking points coming from Saudi Arabia were

basically reproduced almost word for word. King Salman and Crown Prince Mohammad bin Salman deny any planning of the murder. Representatives say

that Khashoggi was an enemy of the state and a member of the Muslim brotherhood. So, he's repeating some of these talking points that we have

heard from Riyadh.

KYLIE: Yes, he is. You use the term Muslim Brotherhood there. This is an organization that's banned in most of the authoritarian or monarchy

governments here in the middle east. It's not banned in Europe. It's -- when you say Muslim Brotherhood, the lay viewer might think of the Muslim

equivalent of the Ku Klux Klan but they're a much more broader, much more ecumenical and philosophical position than anything like that. But you say

it and it has a kind of boogieman effect, particularly I think to the American audience. Talking about him as an enemy of the state. There were

-- there are broadcasters that are broadcasting around the clock very aggressive criticisms by Saudis of Saudi Arabia, Saudi Arabia's government,

the Saudis in exiles I should stress. So, he wasn't top of the list of dangerous opponents.

I think really where he fell foul of is the people in the circle that have been identified by the Saudi prosecutors, a circle of people around the

crown prince. Although, the Saudis insist the crown prince and the senior executives did not know about the plot to murder him. But much more

broadly, look at this region. Where in this region do dissidents not get locked up? Where in the region do they not get disappeared? Where in the

region is there a fully functioning democracy? The answer is nowhere. And therefore, this region would rather move on and deal with the real politic

and that is really what Donald Trump is signaling. His view is completely in lockstep with a largely authoritarian view here that what matters is

fighting Iran and commercial relationships and the other thing I have to say is that in the west, whilst Donald Trump has gone public with this,

this is privately really what people have been thinking in London and elsewhere and wish that Khashoggi issue never happened and go away.

GORANI: That's going to be my point. This is the unusually long and in some places rambling statement of a President that is mirroring very much

the strategic position of western countries, you know, from the U.K. to France, to even Spain that continue selling weapons and doing business and

probably hoping to be able to move on, to get back to normal. Thanks so much, Sam Kylie for joining us live there. A lot more to come on CNN. The

selloff on Wall Street continues. It is erasing all of the gains of this year. Investors aren't just nervous about tech stocks anymore. We'll tell

you what's driving the markets lower and lower. We'll be right back.


GORANI: All right. We'll get back to the top story in a moment and update you on what's happening on Wall Street a. Selloff of U.S. stocks again.

Here's what the Dow is doing right now. It's lower by more than 500 points. That's 2 percent down for the Dow Jones at 24,500 and change. All

three major indices are negative for the year and falling. President Trump had been tweeting with such glee about the rise in stocks as proof that the

management of the economy doing well and in this case, we shouldn't expect a Trump tweet on stocks any time soon. Paul La Monica joins me from New

York. What is going on? Because we're seeing -- starting to see quite a bit of worry now on Wall Street and not just tech stocks. What is going


PAUL LA MONICA, CNN MONEY DIGITAL CORRESPONDENT: Exactly. I think today a key reason why the market is down this much, you had several retailers

reporting disappointing earnings and outlooks for the holidays. Companies of Target and Lowe's and Kohls, all of them tumbling and that's dragging

the broader market lower and of course we have Apple and other tech stocks falling and then oil prices are down, too, which is hurting companies of

Exxon. Add it all up and that's why we have the Dow down 500 points.

GORANI: What are economists and market watchers saying? I mean, because this could be the beginning of a significant selloff, obviously.

LA MONICA: Yes. There are some who would argue that we are in the beginning stages already of a bear market and this is not just a garden

variety correction. There are others who think, though, this is just a correction. Kind of like what happened earlier this year. Remember, in

February we had two days when the Dow fell more than 1,000 points each day and the markets wound up rebounding so I think there are hopes that

consumer spending will still hold up the U.S. economy, that the holidays will be better than what we might be getting from early retail sales

figures but unless there's a U.S./China trade deal or the fed stops raising interest rates we might be needing to get used to the markets being this

volatile for the foreseeable future.

GORANI: And lastly, why are retail sales down? Interest rates are still low. Wages are up. Unemployment is low. Why?

LA MONICA: Yes. Retail -- this is the thing. It is all about market expectations. Retail sales aren't down necessarily. They're not

performing as well as expected. And expectations were high and it is not to say all retailers doing badly. Best Buy, which a lot of people written

off for dead a few years ago because of Amazon, they reported strong results today and Wall Street's rewarding them for that.

[14:20:00] GORANI: Paul, thanks very much. Business and tech correspondent Samuel Burke is here with me. Let's talk about tech shares

and seeing shares up today like Facebook but doing poorly over the last several sessions.

SAMUEL BURKE, CNN MONEY BUSINESS AND TECHNOLOGY CORRESPONDENT: Overall, they have lost about 20 percent of their value from the highs that they had

just a few months ago. If you put it in context, this is like the GDP of a country like Saudi Arabia gone now. We are talking about hundreds of

billions of dollars. But just want to go through each of these stocks because sometimes the whole sector goes down because of a couple of bad

Apples. In this case, each of the companies has really had bad news. Like Saudi Arabia gone now. We are talking about hundreds of billions of

dollars. But just want to go through each of these stocks because sometimes the whole sector goes down because of a couple of bad Apples. In

this case, each of the companies has really had bad news. So, if we start with the fangs, amazon weak guidance for next quarter. Apple reports of

weak demand for iPhone, the most expensive is $1,500, Hala. Netflix, Disney and parent company AT&T looking to bring their own streaming

products out this coming year. Increased borrowing costs because of increased interest rates which you mentioned with Paul. Google, concerns

of ads shifting from that platform to amazon. Lastly, maybe most important, Facebook, you have a wave of bad publicity which you and have

been talking about again over the past 24 hours.

GORANI: Yes. Facebook is an interesting one. Yesterday we were talking about criticism at Facebook for not acting on a page of a young girl

auctioned off to be married in South Sudan and then many other criticisms of Facebook, of it not being able to curate and monitor what's broadcast on

the platform.

BURKE: This was a 16-year-old girl in South Sudan reporting on last night auctioned off for marriage. Her family receiving 500 cows, 3 cars and

$10,000 in exchange for her hand in marriage. Facebook says that they took down the post as soon as they found out about it. That post was up for 15

days and even though there was reports in local media and rights groups, female lawyers calling on Facebook to bring it down, days before it

actually happened. At the end of the day, Hala, I'm hearing from users, investors and even former Facebook executives who say that this cannot

continue. It's -- I think a lot of times people thought this is just something Facebook -- even people within the walls of Facebook don't

believe that the people running this product have control of this product.

GORANI: In what way? I know there were reports in "Wall Street Journal" that Mark Zuckerberg said we're at war and more of a strategy from him at

least to be more aggressive.

BURKE: They don't think that people at the top of this company have taken everything from what are these small stories, I hate to say that, we are

talking about a young 16-year-old girl here, but it's one case to the larger story that affect maybe all of America. They don't think that the

bosses from the get-go are taking this serious enough and more worried sometimes about the PR, hiring a right-wing firm maybe, spreading PR

messages that may have anti-Semitic tropes to them and perceived to be fighting the message and fights than actually getting to the root of them.

One number, thinking about this, there are 2 billion plus people on Facebook. There are 30,000 moderators.

GORANI: I was going to ask you, lastly, what's the solution? If the solution to moderate everything that crosses that platform, you are talking

about having to hire much more than 30,000 moderators.

BURKE: We know that's not going to happen and not one moderator for every person when it comes to 2 billion --

GORANI: Even a group of accounts, for instance. We are in the business of checking facts and making things not legit make it on air and how many

people to do this job. It is a lot and it is a full-time job. You got more than 2 billion daily users on the platform?

BURKE: It's artificial intelligence and investors and why we see the stock down so much believe that maybe people will pull back from the product and

that's why we see the lack of growth, maybe people realize that they have created something that can get to every human being on earth and human

beings may not be comfortable with that.

GORANI: Right. Well, Samuel, stay with us. We cover depressing news and politics sometimes can be. But in this case, maybe not. I don't know.

This one is in London in Westminster. We are covering Brexit a lot. Cabinet resignations or the threat of an open rebellion not enough, there's

a dramatic moment today. This is -- what I like about this, if you needed a 15-second capsule to illustrate this country's divisions, this is it.


[14:25:00] DAME ROSALIE WINTERTON, BRITISH MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT, LABOUR PARTY: The question is, the amendments haven't been made. As many that

are of that opinion say aye.


CROWD: No, no, no!

WINTERTON: Division. Clear the lobby.


BURKE: That does --

GORANI: No! I mean, this is in parliament. This is voting aye or nay on the bill.

We're not sure who it was?

BURKE: A woman.

GORANI: It was a response to a Brexit-related amendment.

BURKE: I can't stop thinking about with Brexit having lived here through it is the thing we talk about most is North Ireland and we were here when

it was campaigned for. Nobody was talking about North Ireland and now Gibraltar. Bottom of the list.

GORANI: It's because when the campaign was going on, there's very little expectation to win and therefore very few specifics were discussed. It was

an overarching notion to leave the EU, it wasn't we will leave the EU and here is our plan, and here is exactly how much it would cost or how much we

would save. This is what the country has to deal with.

BURKE: It's fascinating. The smallest countries literally in the U.K. and European Union are top of mind.

GORANI: Yes. We are -- I think we have a lot more to discuss regarding Brexit.

BURKE: scream.

GORANI: No! All right. Thanks very much, Samuel, for that.

I want to bring you up to speed on a story rocking the business world. The arrest of Carlos Ghosn in Japan. He is of course the legendary head of

Renault, Nissan, Mitsubishi alliance.

The board of Renault is meeting as we speak as the French government pressures them to dump Ghosn as CEO. He is accused of financial misconduct

by the company Nissan. Now, over in Japan, Nissan is preparing to oust him as chairman, as well. A stunning reversal of fortune. He reshaped and

redefined the car industry for almost 20 years. We have a walk-through of the story from Tokyo.


KAORI ENJOJI, CNN JOURNALIST: When he arrived in Japan nearly 20 years ago, Carlos Ghosn was the CEO Japan loved to hate. In a country with few

foreigners at the top, he stood out and when he cut thousands of jobs at Nissan, they labeled him the la cost killer. Over the year he saved Nissan

from bankruptcy, allied with Renault and Mitsubishi and turned the alliance into one of the most competitive in the world.

Throughout the transformation, though, tensions simmered, repeatedly over one issue -- his salary. The initial disdain wore off and Ghosn morphed

into an icon with the $10 million payout at Nissan handily doubled and tripled salaries at other Japanese blue chips, investors even his own

board, started to question whether he really deserved it. His arrest on Monday on allegations of underreporting his salary by $44 million over a

period of 5 years to some industry watchers was a bombshell. Another Nissan executive Greg Kelly was also arrested after an investigation based

on the same whistle-blower report that Nissan says led to Ghosn's arrest and blamed the scandal on too much power concentrated for too long in one


TAKAKI NAKANISHI, ANALYST AND CEO, NAKANISHI RESEARCH INSTITUTE: I Carlos Ghosn really wanted to maintain his autonomy, power and control

after risk and of course over three governors.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He took pride in being an exception. Carmakers are competing against tech giants and their deep pockets to keep up with new

technology. And Renault and Mitsubishi cannot ill afford losing valuable backing from Nissan.

NAKANISHI: Carlos Ghosn was highly respected and well accepted by Japanese people. So, this is significant damage to globalizing Japanese society,

Japanese rulemaking, Japanese corporations.

ENJOJI: There's no doubt that Carlos Ghosn was a lynch pin of the Nissan, Renault, Mitsubishi alliance and its success. Without him, the future of

all three companies is at stake as well as the future of the global auto industry. Kaori Enjoji, CNN Tokyo.


GORANI: Personal e-mails for U.S. government business back in the headlines but this time they're not Hillary Clinton's. Ivanka Trump is now

under fire for her own questionable actions. We will hear her explanation ahead.

Later, new video shows firefighter making a dramatic rescue in California. Their helicopter was low on fuel when they got an urgent call for help.

We'll bring you that story.


[14:30:38] HALA GORANI, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: Back to our top story now. A stunning defense of Saudi Arabia by U.S. president, Donald Trump.

Today, he signaled that he will not take punitive action over the killing of journalist and U.S. President Jamal Khashoggi. Sources say Mr. Trump's

own CIA has concluded that the Saudi prince himself ordered his murder.

Today, the U.S. President literally said maybe he did or maybe he didn't about -- know about the murder. But, quote, in any case, our relationship

is with Saudi Arabia. Just minutes ago, America's top diplomat, the secretary of state, Mike Pompeo echoed that message.


MIKE POMPEO, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: It's a mean, nasty world out there. The Middle East in particular. There are important American interests to

keep the American people safe. To protect Americans. Not only Americans who are here but Americans who are traveling and working, doing business in

the Middle East.

It is the president's obligation and indeed the state department's duty, as well, to ensure that we adopt policies that further the America's national

security. So as the president said today, the United States will continue to have a relationship with the kingdom of Saudi Arabia. They're important

partner of ours. We will do that with the kingdom of Saudi Arabia, its people. That is the commitment that the president made today. It's that



GORANI: Our chief international correspondent, Clarissa Ward is here with more. This was a stunning statement on so many levels, first of all,

because the statement on Saudi Arabia starts with a very long paragraph on Iran.

CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Iran is the objective of the day for the Trump White House. That is essentially what

this statement is saying. Maybe he did it. Maybe he didn't. Talking about the crown prince, as you alluded to, being responsible for the murder

or the killing of Jamal Khashoggi.

But ultimately, we don't care. What we care about is Iran. We see Iran as being the greatest threat to regional security. We also need Saudi

Arabia's help with fighting terrorism. Though, of course, that irony is not lost on many of us who know full well that Saudi's often playing the

role of both the arsonist and the firefighter in the fight against terror.

And, of course, Hala, we need Saudi Arabia's help when it comes to weapons deals. $110 billion in weapons deals. Although President Trump alludes to

$450 billion in investment agreements. We have not been able to substantiate that figure at all.

GORANI: Sure. And usually, those come in the form of promissory notes. It doesn't mean that these were, in fact, materialize.

But I found interesting and many people were offended, in fact, by the inclusion in the statement of smears and claims that have never been proven

regarding Jamal Khashoggi's membership of the Muslim brotherhood and reiterating what Saudi Arabia has said that Jamal Khashoggi was an enemy of

the state. These are reports that have come down over the last several weeks. He is now confirming that Saudi has said this.

WARD: The idea that President Trump could just throw out there Saudi Arabia says he's an enemy of the state when there's not a single shred of

evidence in anything he has written that ever would indicate that he was an enemy of the state, that everyone would indicate that he was anything other

than someone who loved his country but had concerns about the direction it was taking, had some criticisms, legitimate criticisms, particularly of the

war in Yemen. It was also very interesting the way President Trump said, hey, Saudi Arabia would love to leave Yemen, if only Iran would leave, too.

[14:35:02] Every word of this statement seemed like it had been written partly by President Trump and very much in his language. But also partly

by a Saudi Arabian ally. It smacked of all the sort of rhetoric that we have seen him use, we've seen the Saudis use.

And to sort of throw out there this insidious remark that he could be Muslim brotherhood, knowing full well that to many Americans who don't

understand the geopolitics of the region, who don't understand the history of the movement that they might find that extremely frightening and a clear

indication that he was some kind of an Islamist or some militant or fundamentalist is so unfair.

GORANI: I'm just injecting that in the statement alone, just puts that idea back out there.

WARD: Absolutely. And he does not have the freedom right now from where he is to come and defend his own name.

GORANI: Now, this is a very unusual long and rambling statement. It's got exclamation marks all over it and we can find many aspects of it that are

certainly eyebrow raising. But when it comes down to the actual -- to the foundational message here, it's something that we see in other European

countries. The fact that France, the U.K., many others would want also this thing to go away so we can all get back to business as usual.

WARD: Business as usual, business being the operative word, Hala. Ultimately, what President Trump is saying, what we have heard other

nations indicate, though they certainly won't say it as overtly is there's too much money on the table here. No one is interested in stopping the

very lucrative flow of weapons sales to Saudi Arabia because European countries and the U.S. are worried about their own economies.

GORANI: But that being said, it's not about stopping weapons flows to Saudi Arabia, it's about but MBS himself. It's MBS specific. The U.S.

could have put some pressure on King Salman.

WARD: Of course. Of course. But once they saw that the Saudis seemed to be indicating that MBS was a line in the sand, that they would take so much

responsibility for Jamal Khashoggi's killing but they wouldn't go so far as to implicate the prince. Once Saudi's foreign minister come out today and

said, "we will not allow them to be harmed," everyone seems to be now sort of backing away and saying, OK, well maybe he did, maybe he didn't. We'll

never be able to prove it. Let's get back to the business of selling weapons.

GORANI: Germany halted arms sales and it's in fact banning 18 people believed to be involved in the killing from Schengen.

WARD: Well, the U.S. has also banned 17 people who were believed to be involved.

GORANI: All right. Clarissa Ward, thanks very much. Our chief international correspondent.

Donald Trump is getting ready to leave Washington for the Thanksgiving holiday, but there is no break from controversy on multiple fronts. First,

a new setback to the president's crackdown on illegal immigration. A judge has temporarily blocked his order to automatically reject asylum bids from

migrants who enter the United States undocumented.

And questionable e-mails are back in the headlines but this time not Hillary Clinton's. It turns out Ivanka Trump used a private account to

discuss White House business last year. The explanation was that she was reportedly unaware that there were rules that ban White House employees

from receiving briefings on their personal e-mail server. That has left critics scratching their heads, wondering how that's possible given that

Ivanka's father raked Hillary Clinton over the coals during the presidential campaign over that. Remember?


DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: 33,000 missing e-mails. Think of it. 33,000!

She should never have been allowed to run for the presidency based on what she did with e-mails.

She doesn't even remember whether or not she was instructed on how to use e-mails! Were you instructed on how to use -- I can't remember.

Hillary Clinton can't keep her e-mails safe. And you know what, folks? She sure as hell can't keep our country safe.

She deleted the e-mails! She has to go to jail.


GORANI: A spokesman says Ivanka Trump, quote, "Did not create a private server in her house or office. There was never classified information

transmitted. The account was never transferred and housed at Trump organization and no e-mails were ever deleted." Making a distinction

between what Ivanka Trump did and what Donald Trump has accused Hillary Clinton of doing.

Our legal analyst Joey Jackson joins me now. Did Ivanka Trump do anything illegal here?

JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, we don't know yet. Good do see you, Hala. That most certainly will be investigated. Remember, the House

of Representatives which is one part of the United States Congress, right? You have U.S. Senate, there's 100 of those. There's 435 U.S. House of

Representatives members. That's now in democratic hands to the extent that the democrats are in control.

I would suspect that there will be an investigation to answer the ultimate question, whether something was done illegally. Certainly, there was

something done improperly on the face of it and it was done improperly. That could be said with confidence as a result of regulations and laws

which say, you cannot do this.

[14:40:06] There is a Presidential Records Act that speaks to the issue of preserving e-mails, particularly not making them personal. You cannot do

it for ethical and other reasons, historical reasons. And then of course, reasons that pertain to national security.

So the legal or illegal question is yet to be answered but the improper question has already been answered and the irony and the hypocrisy in this

entire story is just mindboggling.

GORANI: And you can't plead ignorance when it comes to laws. You can't say I didn't know. I wasn't allowed to steal. But what about rules and


JACKSON: That's 100 percent correct.


JACKSON: That's right. What happens is, is that there something that says that ignorance of the law is no excuse. And so, you know, from a normal

perspective anyone, for example, could say, hey, I didn't know what the speed limit was. I didn't know what the regulation was. I didn't know

what that was. That's never excusable.

But in this particular instance when it comes from the daughter of the president of the United States and, you know, you said raking over the

coals. I 100 percent agree. It was worse, though, even then that.

I mean, he excoriated her based upon that is now President Trump, Hillary Clinton based upon the handling of her e-mails. You certainly would think

that his daughter might know better as a high ranking official in the White House to not do this.

GORANI: It is still -- it is still the chant that comes back to this day at Donald Trump's rallies, lock her up.

JACKSON: Lock her up.

GORANI: Referring to Hillary Clinton. Even though the election was more than two years ago.

A judge, a federal judge has blocked Donald Trump's asylum ban. The attempt to ban any migrant entering undocumented from applying for asylum.

The judge said essentially that the president, quote, "May not rewrite the immigration laws." Where does that leave us?

JACKSON: Well, that's 100 percent correct. And the reason why that is correct is because you have, right, the separation of branches of

government and very briefly stated, you need Congress, right? To enact laws that deal with and otherwise affect immigration. You cannot have the

president unilaterally applying immigration policies that are new and that really contravene and otherwise contradict well-established law.

So the judge, you know, very clearly saying that it's in the province of congress to fix the problem. It's in the province of you. We don't elect

kings or popes or anything else. We elect presidents who have to really go along with and certainly, you know, be leaders in terms of making laws.

But the ultimate law lies with Congress.

Where it leaves us, Hala, is that the order's in effect until December 19th. It's a temporary order which says, no, Mr. President, you're not

able to do this. It'll be continued and it'll be argued. I should just hasten to add, though, that interestingly enough the district court judge

was an Obama appointee. The relevance of that, of course, is we're in a very polarized country. Democrats, Republicans.

And, of course, the Justice Department who works under Trump believes that if it gets kicked up to the Supreme Court of the United States where it is

more conservative based upon recent appointments by Trump, Gorsuch, as of late, you may have heard the word Kavanaugh, right? He's the new justice

on the Supreme Court.

GORANI: Yes. It rings a bell.

Jackson: They believe that they would have the votes. Yes, it rings a bell. They believe they have the vote to this point to make it stand.

GORANI: I was going to say, that being said, the judge who ordered the administration to restore Jim Acosta's press pass or his hard pass was a

Trump nominee. So it doesn't always fall, you know, neatly along partisan lines.

JACKSON: One hundred percent. And that's one of the things that I would say and I appreciate you pointing out, Hala, because it restores your faith

in the system. At the end of the day, these judges serve for life and what that means essentially is that their loyalty is to the constitution of the

United States and notwithstanding whoever may have appointed you, you want to uphold the law.

But at the end of the day, I hasten to add that part of upholding the law comes with a philosophy. And oftentimes, conservative philosophy is much

different than a philosophy that's much more liberal. Both can apply the law but the notion of what the law is and how it applies can vary greatly

depending upon what your views on the law are.

And so this is not the last we'll be talking about it. Remember, the Trump ban initially, you might recall, when he was banning immigrants and various

countries, that was struck down initially and then the Supreme Court ultimately upheld it and so that's where this is going, I think to the

United States Supreme Court.

GORANI: Joey Jackson, as always, pleasure having you on. Thanks so much.

JACKSON: Pleasure's mine.

GORANI: Well, we're just getting a newly released footage of a dramatic rescue from wildfires in California. Two firefighters have finished

dropping water on the flames when they got the call to help a group and their dogs trapped on top of a mountain. Take a look.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. So just so you know, just to add to it, we're getting pretty close to our bingo of fuel.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Keep the door open. I'm going to go run out.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. Godspeed.

[14:45:00] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go ahead, fourth.


GORANI: Well, that fire near Los Angeles has killed at least three people. But officials expect it to be fully contained by Thursday, thankfully.

Much-needed rain is forecast to hit the state later this week and that's going to help a lot, as well.

But in the state's north which has been hit by the worst fires, the rain could cause flooding and mudslides. Paul Vercammen is there in the town of

Paradise where the wildfire burned down most of the homes. So we want rain but not too much rain, Paul.

PAUL VERCAMMEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's exactly right, Hala. If you look behind me, as far as you can see this entire manufactured home

community has been obliterated. And if you look, you'll see that excavator in the background, is it lifting up rooves off some of these homes and

other buildings such as, let's say, the community hall, and what they want to do is get the crews in and go through every single one of these places.

We just saw a moment -- just off to the left where they had looked at this house rather carefully.

They brought in an anthropologist. They said no, there's no human remains here. But what are they looking for? You see the car. It's still in the

drive. And that's something that they look at. They look in bathtubs. They look in where the couch or back bedroom might be. They also like to

look in an area where there might be, let's say, a recliner.

In this instance, while they didn't find any body, they think that there might be other people in this neighborhood and they're working very

furiously. And the reason being is when these rains come, it's going to compact the ash. And that means it makes it like soil, as they explained

to me, and it's very difficult to sort of separate everything when it gets to that point. So they're working against the clock.

The other thing they're worried about, as we look at the devastation behind me, is first responders. They're going to be driving in and around this

and that ash can get very slurry. It becomes mixed in with mud and they don't want anybody to be driving through the runoff from this stuff as in a

first responder in their rig and risking their lives on these twisting roads.

Paradise, the small city, sits on top of a hill if you will. And there are plenty of those twisting canyons. It's not all like this. But you get a

sense for how ferocious this fire was.

This neighborhood, I'm going to guess, 80 homes. Gone. Nothing standing, Hala.

GORANI: Just unbelievable. Apocalyptic. Thanks very much, Paul Vercammen, in Paradise, California.

Still to come, could a Putin loyalist become the next head of Interpol? That's what Kremlin critics says is likely to happen. We'll take you live

to Moscow, next.


[14:50:56] GORANI: It is a mounting death toll in Kabul. A suicide blast interrupted a celebration for the Prophet Mohammad's birthday. Afghan

officials say at least 50 people were killed and dozens of others were wounded. The bomb ripped through the venue where religious scholars had


It is the latest sign of the country's rapidly deteriorating security situation. No group has claimed responsibility for this.

A battle is brewing over who will be the next president of Interpol as a Russian official emerges as a leading candidate. Critics say, if chosen,

he would make Russian abuse of the agency even worse than it already is.

And a group of U.S. senators say it would be like putting a fox in charge of a hen house. That vote is expected to take place on Wednesday.

Tomorrow. Matthew Chance joins me now from Moscow with the latest. Talk to us about this candidate, Matthew.

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Hala. His name is Alexander Prokopchuk and he's an official with the Russian interior

ministry. He's also already a vice president of Interpol for Europe. And so he's in a very strong position as this election process gets underway

tomorrow in Dubai with the Interpol member states selecting a new president, there's Mr. Prokopchuk is a candidate. There's a candidate from

South Korea as well.

But it's the Russian who is ticked to get the majority of the votes. And that would the situation when a Russian nationalist, of course, heading up

that world policing body. It's a country which critics say has been abusive in its use of Interpol read notices. The closest thing Interpol

has to an international arrest warrant which has been issuing against out of favor business men, against political dissidents, even against

environmental campaigners in an attempt to sort of harass people and persecute critics and opponents overseas when they -- when they leave the

borders of Russia.

And for that reason, critics say that a Russian national should not be elected into that senior most position. Bill Browder is of course, a U.S.-

born businessman who is himself been a victim of multiple red notices. His loyalist Sergei Magnitsky was killed in Russian custody back in 2009 and

he's been campaigning hard to bring those in Russia responsible to justice. He's been outspoken at his criticism at the prospect of a Russian leading

Interpol. Take a listen.


BILL BROWDER, AMERICAN-BRITISH FINANCIER: I can't imagine a more inappropriate person than a person who has been the architect of the abuse

doled out to me by Russia at Interpol. There is probably no more inappropriate person than this person and there's no more inappropriate

country to have any type of leadership position at Interpol than Russia.


CHANCE: Yes. And inappropriate country because Russia has, particularly over the last couple of years, been accused of flagrant disregard itself

for international law, from, you know, the meddling in U.S. elections to the poisoning or the using of a chemical weapon on the streets of Britain.

And so, you know, this potential appointment is causing a great deal of consternation in the liberal west.

GORANI: Matthew Chance, our senior international correspondent in Moscow, thanks very much.

Worth noting that Secretary of State Mike Pompeo has backed the South Korean candidate for the job, Kim Jong Yang. We'll know tomorrow what

decision is made.

More to come. Stay with us.


[14:55:13] GORANI: The great white shark, the African penguin, whales and dolphins, the way the world imagines the ocean itself is a reality for the

waters around South Africa. You may not have seen these incredible creatures in person and the sad thing is, the way things are going, there's

a chance you might. But someone is working to change that. Take a look.


KERRY SINK, MARINE SCIENTIST: South Africa's really a maritime nation. We have three ocean systems.

So here we are in the beautiful Table Mountain National Park in the City of Cape Town at the tip of South Africa and it's here where the Atlantic Ocean

and the Indian Ocean come together and the mixing area and that's what drives this incredible marine biodiversity.

We get to experience places that no one has ever seen before. And to witness the incredible diversity of the different types of ecosystems. I

mean, people imagine in their minds that you kind of go down and as soon as you hit that dark water, it all looks the same, but it's not like that.

There is incredible deep reefs with colorful less corrals, the gardens of thistle corrals. There are areas where life is sparse.

I've been working towards the proclamation of 20 new marine-protected areas that will really represent our offshore biodiversity so the different

ecosystem types and to safeguard offshore resources.

Dance of the winged whale. On humpbacks. I'm also inspired by watching the next generation of scientists meet their goals and to show to them

what's under this blue blanket and to watch children and adults experience that is very rewarding.


GORANI: All right. That's going to do it for me. Before I leave you, a quick check of the Dow Jones. I was telling a little bit earlier this hour

that it was a pretty bruising day for stocks. Here's a look at the Dow and losses are accelerating. Down almost 2.25 percent, under 24,500.

Well, "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" will have full coverage of that for you after this break. I'm Hala Gorani. I'll see you next time.