Return to Transcripts main page

New Day

Interview with San Diego Sector Chief Border Patrol Agent; President Trump Tweets on Immigration Policy. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired November 26, 2018 - 8:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00] JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: The San Ysidro Port is back open after being shut down for hours on Sunday.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: So the unrest at the border providing new fuel for President Trump over the weekend. The president tweeted that migrants seeking asylum in the U.S. will be forced to stay in Mexico while their claims are decided. But the incoming Mexican government denies any deal exists with the U.S. about these migrants.

BERMAN: Joining us now is Rodney Scott, chief patrol agent of the San Diego sector of Border Patrol. Chief, thank you very much for being with us. We've been looking at these pictures for the last 20 hours or so. You've been right in the middle of it watching. We're lucky to have you on this morning. Explain the decision to use the tear gas, because that is one question I think people have this morning.

RODNEY SCOTT, CHIEF PATROL AGENT, SAN DIEGO SECTOR BORDER PATROL: So one of our primary missions is to make sure that we keep the border is safe and secure. I kind of challenge that this was a peaceful protest or that the majority of these people were claiming asylum. We ended up making 42 about arrests. Only eight of those were females and there were only a few children involved. The vast majority of people we're dealing with are adult males.

Similar to what we saw the first wave of the caravan that came up about a week or so ago, the group immediately starting throwing rocks and debris at our agents, taunting the agents. Once our agents were assaulted and the numbers started growing, we had two or three agents at a time initially facing hundreds of people at a time, they deployed tear gas to protect themselves and to protect the border.

BERMAN: Were any of your agents hurt?

SCOTT: So at least three agents were actually struck by rocks, but they were in tactical gear, so their helmets and their shields and their bulletproof vests actually protected them from the rocks. We did have a few vehicles that were damaged, some windows and quite a few dents. But none of the agents were seriously injured.

BERMAN: You just gave us a bit of news this morning, because we had been reporting there were 39 arrests on the Mexican side of the border. We're hearing from the first time from you that there were 42 arrests on the U.S. side? So 42 people did manage to cross the border? SCOTT: That is correct, 42 crossed the border and were arrested. To

be completely frank, there were numerous people that actually made it across the border. We're in the process of building the new border wall here but we don't have it completed. There were some sections that had dilapidated border wall that was made out of scrap the military gave us. The group breached a couple sections of that, actually tore down one section, started to rush across, and that's another time they started assaulting our agents. We were able to hold them back using riot techniques. But there were ultimately 42 arrests of individuals. And, again, as I mentioned, the vast majority of those were adult males.

BERMAN: Do you feel as though you had enough agents at the border to handle this situation? Were your people overwhelmed?

SCOTT: We were able to manage this and effectively control this, but I want to be clear that all of our agents on a daily basis are fully employed. We had to bring in several hundred additional border patrol agents from around the country, 100 additional CBP officers from around the country. That's affecting our operations in other areas. But the fact that no one made it across the border or past our defenses, I would say we were adequately staffed, but it was not without a cost.

BERMAN: This was Customs Border Patrol personnel. This was not U.S. military personnel engaged in this conflict directly. Is that correct?

SCOTT: That's correct, Customs and Border Protection personnel. DOD is here helping us with logistical support. They another flew another 59 agents in and officers in from El Centro, the next sector over for us, and they were helping to provide overwatch, but they were not doing any law enforcement role.

BERMAN: So at the outset of this interview you took issue with the idea that these were people seeking asylum. The caravan, though, 5,000 to 9,000, depending on which count you believe, that is in Tijuana, those are people coming to the border, as far as you know, for asylum, isn't it?

SCOTT: I do not believe that is true. I believe there are definitely people in that group that are going to try to claim asylum. The vast majority of those, from what we call the northern triangle, are economic migrants, though. They do not meet the qualifications to get asylum here. They can still apply. That's a different issue. However, what I saw on the border yesterday was not people walking up to Border Patrol agents and asking to claim asylum. As a matter of fact one of the groups I've watched, one of the groups, several of them were arrested, they passed 10 or 15 marked border patrol units walking east to west, or west to east, I'm sorry, numerous uniformed personnel as they were chanting, waving a Honduran flag, and throwing rocks at the agents. If they were truly asylum seekers, they would have just walked up with their hands up and surrendered, and that did not take place.

BERMAN: What we understand has happened -- and I'm not disputing there were rocks being thrown -- is that these are among the group that had been in Tijuana in that stadium and they grew frustrated, they say, because their claims weren't be processed quickly enough.

[08:05:07] I understand, CBP, you don't do the asylum processing. That's not your job. However, let me ask you if you think your job would be made easier by a smoother, a more streamlined, a quicker assimilation process.

SCOTT: So that's quite often a question. I believe there's a lot of issues with our current immigration policy, if you will, the laws. I think Congress is -- we've made very clear to Congress what some of those fixes are. I think they can step in at any point in time and make some legislative changes to help us out immensely.

But we are at capacity. So it doesn't matter what port you go to, where you're against We are already arresting 2,000 people a day. We're processing just at San Ysidro over 100,000 legitimate trade and travel every day, 100,000 people, if you will. So any additional resources we assign to processing asylum seekers literally slows down the economy of the United States, it slows down people that legitimately cross back and forth across our borders, to include the international airports that many of you, I'm sure, fly in. We get complaints constantly about the lines as they are. We just have limited resources.

BERMAN: I do understand that. I guess what I'm getting at as we talk about a more comprehensive process to fixing the situation at the border, if making the process quicker would make your life easier. You did answer, though, that question, largely.

You said that you arrested mostly men at the border there. The pictures have included women and children, and there are those questioning, again, the use of the tear gas on the women and children. Is there some barrier in place to the use when women and children, children specifically, might be at risk?

SCOTT: So, use of those less lethal techniques are -- when the threat is to our personnel or to protect others, you've got to do what you've got to do. What I find unconscionable is that people would intentionally take children into this situation. What we saw over and over yesterday was that the group, the caravan as we call them, would push women and children toward the front and then begin basically rocking our agents.

So there's different types of tools we use, different types of CS deployment. We try to target specifically the instigators, specifically the person assaulting the agent. But as you saw from the vehicle, once that chemical is released, it does go through the air. I was in an area where I actually inhaled quite a bit of it yesterday as well. That's what's going to happen in those situations.

BERMAN: Chief Rodney Scott, we do appreciate you being with us this morning. It's early out there. You've had a lot of work over the last 24 hours and more work to do, so we do appreciate your time, sir.

SCOTT: Thank you for having me on this morning. I really appreciate it.

BERMAN: Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: That was so helpful, John. It was so helpful to get information directly from the source.

So let's talk about it. We want to bring in "New York Times" op-ed columnist and CNN contributor Frank Bruni, CNN political commentator Ana Navarro, and former federal prosecutor and CNN chief legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin.

So Jeffrey, having chief Scott there tell us what happened is really helpful. So we have new information -- 42 people did cross the border, they were instantly arrested by border patrol agents, and arrested, I assume sent back or jailed. This is a problem. He just spelled out exactly why they have their hands full and what's going on at the borders.

And so when you hear President Trump say "Would it be very smart if Mexico could stop the caravans long before they got to our southern border or originating countries would not let them form, it is a way they get certain people out of their country and dump them in the U.S. no longer. Dems created this problem. No crossing!" I'm not sure what the plan is, but something has to happen.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: It is true that it would be better if these caravans didn't form and if our -- the immigration process were a lot more orderly. If your answer to all the problems is the wall, it doesn't seem that would address what went on yesterday. Actually it seemed like the system worked pretty well yesterday.

CAMEROTA: It did, but he saying that their hands were full. They shouldn't have to take rocks to their border patrol agents. They shouldn't have to do that. They shouldn't have to arrest 42 people that are able to come through a dilapidated part of the fence.

TOOBIN: Certainly, there shouldn't be a dilapidated part of the fence and certainly people shouldn't throw rocks. We are always going to have limited control of what goes on in Mexico, much less what goes on in Honduras. Fundamentally the problem, it seems, is these people are poor, they're desperate, they want to come to find a better life, which is why immigrants always come. And we are always going to have limited capacity for immigrants. I don't have a comprehensive answer for that problem. But a wall in and of itself strikes me as much more symbol than substance.

[08:10:00] BERMAN: Ana Navarro is with us this morning. Ana, did you find that to be a compelling answer from chief Scott about the use of tear gas, which was essentially, look, our job is to protect the border. By the time they're here or through the fence, what are we supposed to do? His claim that most of the people storming the fence were men, not the women and children that we've seen in the pictures.

ANA NAVARRO, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Look, there are no easy answers here. And it's a very difficult situation, a very complicated situation. I don't find that a compelling answer. We have seen the images of the children and the women, and there has got to be a pragmatic and compassionate answer here that does not involve tear gassing children. That is not who America is. That is not what we do. The eyes of the world are watching us, and if we are going to be the beacon of human rights for the world, we can't have these images coming out from our country.

That being said, we need to protect our borders. We need to have security. I keep thinking, look, if Donald Trump is saying these countries should stop them in their countries of origin, we should set up asylum processing centers, regional processing centers, which at one point existed and were shut down in some of those countries in the region, so if anybody does have a legitimate political asylum claim, because they're not just fleeing poverty. A lot of them are. But a lot of them are also fleeing from political persecution and gang violence. Guatemala, Honduras, El Salvador, now also Nicaragua, the death rate there, the gang violence there, the political corruption there is among the highest in the world. And as long as there is that desperation to flee from, people are going to flee.

CAMEROTA: So listen, Frank, history books are filled with bipartisan efforts to try to have some sort of comprehensive immigration so we don't see scenes like what happened at the border. And most recently I think Joe Manchin spearheaded one of them. There was a bipartisan effort. I think it was even going to give President Trump funding, a lot of funding. So what's the sticking point?

FRANK BRUNI, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: The sticking point is neither party wants to give the other anything that seems like a victory. Each side wants to come out of it saying they got more than the other side, and everything breaks down there.

Another thing that is a hurdle here, and it's right there in that tweet that you read from President Trump, this is, as Ana said, as Jeff said, this is a super complicated situation and there are going to be ugly moments like the one we saw yesterday. We're not going to get past it if the president continues to insist on dabbling in lies and fearmongering. He said in that tweet this is a system or phenomenon by which these countries are dumping their worst on America. That's not who is in that caravan, by and large, and we all know that. And as long as President Trump insists on perpetuating those myths, insists on doing that, we're not going to reach a political solution because he's not dealing in the real world and he's just trying to score really base political point.

BERMAN: It's interesting, though, is over the last year, two years, you do hear from Democrats who say you know what, give him $10 billion for the wall if it just means he'll quiet down and we can actually put adults in the room and figure the things that need to happen here.

BRUNI: And I think they feel, as ludicrous as the wall is as a long term solution, I think Jeff is totally right on that, I think they are willing to give a little if they can make improvements in other areas.

TOOBIN: That's right. NAVARRO: John, if I can say, I think this is going on in the region.

And remember, I was born in Nicaragua. It takes more than comprehensive immigration reform. I think it takes like a plan Colombia. You remember when there were joint operations between the region and the United States in order to rein in the out of control drug trade and drug production in Colombia.

If we don't have some sort of strategic, targeted, joint effort so that the gang violence gets under control, so that there's more economic opportunities in the region, so that there is asylum processing in the region, it's more than immigration. It's foreign policy. It's foreign cooperation. It's military operations. It is I think a multi-pronged approach, because this problem is not going to go away by itself.

Donald Trump has been separating families, he's been putting children in detention centers. That has not stopped them. By the same token, I'm not starry-eyed about this. You let people come in, and it can turn from 1,000 to 10,000 like this. It could become an exodus like this. I live in Miami where I have seen exoduses of Cubans happen, 100,000 and Cubans during the Mariel Boatlift in a matter of weeks. I've seen it happen with Haitians. And what I've seen happen here historically is that administrations from both parties, people like Bush administration, Clinton administration, would take those potential refugees, put them somewhere, and process those applications. And the ones that qualified, qualified. The ones that didn't got repatriated.

TOOBIN: But let's also, just to go back to your question about the politics. Yes, there is a faction who would say sure, give him his $10 billion. First of all, it's not going to stop him from talking about immigration once he got the $10 billion. But democrats have to get something in return for that. What about a deal for the Dreamers, the kids who were - the people who brought here as children, have lived in America their whole lives. Why not give them a route to a green card or citizenship?

ALISYN CAMEROTA, HOST, NEW DAY: And President Trump had expressed at times a lot of sympathy for them and wants to do that.

TOOBIN: Exactly. Exactly. So I can't blame the Democrats for not just sort of giving him the $10 billion and getting nothing in return, especially the Dreamers. As you said, the President has said at various times that he is supportive of a deal for the Dreamers. If there is a deal, maybe he will get his wall.

FRANK BRUNI, CONTRIBUTOR, CNN: The President has been a total windshield wiper on the Dreamers. I mean, he's here, he's there and that's part of the problem here. You can't negotiate with someone who changes his position hourly, which is what Donald Trump has done on immigration. He has been all over the map.

And also to Ana's very good point about foreign policy being so important, international relations. If you want to work on immigration you have to work with in a collaborative fashion with the countries that these people are coming from. And when you are calling them blank hole countries, you're not really

getting off on a good foot

CAMEROTA: It's not just name calling, I mean, haven't we also cut funding to Honduras and Guatemala as opposed to helping them in their own country with foreign aid? I mean, I know that requires some larges and we may not be in the mood for that right now as Americans, but what do we expect to happen regarding the economic conditions?

BRUNI: Yes, we've cut funding and oratorically, President Trump has given every signal that he has absolutely no respect for these countries and he is more willing to use them as political pawns and to say nasty things about them to score points with his base than he is to actually try to improve the situation.

TOOBIN: And let's remember, the drug dealers who are a huge threat to all of the people not just in Mexico but throughout Central America, who is buying those drugs? Americans are buying those drugs, ultimately. And that money is fueling, you know, a lot of the fear and unrest, which is forcing people to come here.

ANA NAVARRO, POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, CNN: But listen but this is --

CAMEROTA: Yes, go ahead, Ana.

NAVARRO: This is a political crisis, but it's also a humanitarian crisis and I think it's one that involves a lot of very smart heads getting together and coming up with an approach that can address the problems there and here. The UN - there's organizations that deal with refugee resettlement. Look, there's refugees being resettled out of Syria. I've been in Lebanon. I've seen much smaller countries take in a much bigger amount of refugees. Same thing can be said for Jordan.

There are orderly processes to do this. There are request countries willing to take refugees. Some of these people are fleeing poverty. Some of these people are fleeing poverty. Some of them are fleeing absolutely legitimate political strife.

Daniel Ortega has killed 550 people or more in the last six months in Nicaragua. When people are running for their lives, when they want their children to be raised in freedom, I know this, because I am one of those children. They will do anything and take any steps. I know this because I live in Miami and I see Cubans get in inner tubes and getting in rickety rafts in order to bring their children to freedom. I've seen Cuban-American friends of mine who came here alone as children and the church had a very big role.

So we need to get people who have been through this, people who have done these processing centers in the past, people who have experience. Border state governors, we need to get military personnel. We need to get people like Mel Martinez, who was a Peter Pan kid, came here by himself as a boy from Cuba, fleeing that kind of repression.

We need to get folks who can be pragmatic, who know the law, who know the solutions, who know the conditions in these countries to actually come up with some real proposals instead of all this political posturing by tweet, like Donald Trump is doing, which is irresponsible.

TOOBIN: I have a suggestion for someone who can lead that effort. George W. Bush. George W. Bush had a progressive attitude toward immigration, obviously, someone with a lot of credibility with Republicans maybe should take time off from his painting and lead this effort.

JOHN BERMAN, HOST, NEW DAY: What did he say about family values?

BRUNI: Well, I'm just thinking George W. Bush is very into post presidential etiquette. I don't think he is going to re-enter the political arena.

TOOBIN: He shouldn't, I'm just --

BRUNI: I'm talking about the realm of the possible.

BERMAN: But he said family values don't stop at the Rio Grande River is what he said. I don't think that's going to pull him away from his painting now. Ana, Frank, and Jeffrey, thank you all very much. We've got some breaking news. Ukraine's President just signed a decree to introduce Martial Law for two months pending Parliamentary approval. This comes after a dangerous naval confrontation with Russia. Ukraine says, Russia open fired on and seized three of its naval vessels. The UN Security Council will hold an emergency meeting in just hours.

CAMEROTA: Okay, President Trump under scrutiny for not visiting US troops in a combat zone all weekend. Lots of people had speculated that over the Thanksgiving weekend, there might be a surprise trip somewhere overseas. That did not happen. So we discuss with the leading veterans group leader, the thoughts. How are our troops feeling today?

[08:20:02]

CAMEROTA: So President Trump did not visit troops over the Thanksgiving holiday, but he did hold a conference call with military leaders to thank them for their service and also vent about political topics like trade.

Let's bring in Paul Rieckhoff. He is the founder and CEO of Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America and author of "Chasing Ghosts." Paul, great to have you here.

PAUL RIECKHOFF, FOUNDER AND CEO, IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN VETERANS OF AMERICA: Good morning.

CAMEROTA: So listen, there were people were speculating that there were some signs, we were reading the tea leaves that maybe the President would make a surprise trip some place over Thanksgiving weekend. He did not do that. He did golf, came back from Mar-a-Lago and he had his Thanksgiving there. But let's really talk about this. Is it important for the President to go to a war zone, a danger zone and visit troops? It's a nice gesture. Is it really important for a US President to do that?

RIECKHOFF: I think it is. You don't have to do it, but I think you really should do it. It's kind of like going to your kids' soccer games, right, you don't have to do it, but it's a good thing to do.

You want to show your support. War is not a game. But our troops feel forgotten, especially around holiday times, around Thanksgiving, around the end of the year. And especially in Afghanistan. You know, they often feel like America is going on without them and that their service and their sacrifice is often forgotten.

And especially this weekend, it was Thanksgiving. But an army ranger was killed in Afghanistan. Leandro Jasso, 25 years old, on his third tour, you know, he was killed in action. We need to honor those folks, we need to remember them, we need to support their families back home.

CAMEROTA: But let me challenge you on the notion that they feel forgotten because I've heard from service members and here's what they like. They like that President Trump talks about them a lot.

[08:25:04]

CAMEROTA: They like that he expresses adulation or admiration for their service. They like these $674 billion in defense appropriations for fiscal 2018. They like the host of new equipment purchases. They like the largest military pay raise in a decade, so --

RIECKHOFF: Sure.

CAMEROTA: So where are we? I mean, don't they - doesn't that action speak louder than a visit?

RIECKHOFF: I think it has got to be both. And I think it's also got to be corrective action when things go wrong like for example, the VA right now has got major problems. The GI bill checks that are supposed to be going to student veterans around the country aren't getting there cut on time. The President is not focusing his fury on the VA right now. He is focused on plenty of other targets, but not the VA. That's where they want to see focus.

They want to see focus on suicide. They want to see focus on reforming the bureaucracy around their mental health and their healthcare. That's what they want to see. So it has got to be both.

And I think also the politics has to be removed from it. That call next week, it's not helpful to drag in Supreme Court justices and all of these other stuff when you're on a call with troops overseas. They don't need to hear that. They need focus and they know they their service isn't being politicized.

CAMEROTA: So it diddnt - you don't think it went over well with the military? I mean --

RIECKHOFF: No. CAMEROTA: The reports fashion that the military leaders said they

were sort of baffled by the President veering into conversations about trade.

RIECKHOFF: Yes, yes. I mean, there's a third rail and it's mixing political and military and he's done it over and over again. We see our military being politicized over and over again and that's just a bad place for the President to go. He isn't experienced, right, he wasn't a governor, and he wasn't a senator. You learn a lot of this on the court of that time in service.

But really, it's a guardrail that you shouldn't hit, especially around the holidays. And I think you see him hitting it over and over again. He has done it with the Kahn family, he's done it with John McCain. He did it with Admiral McRaven. I mean, it's becoming a pattern and I think he has got to be more sensitive to that, because even his numbers in the military are dropping. It's been a base of support for him, but we've seen them going down, and I think these things are starting to pile up.

CAMEROTA: That's interesting. He also - let's be honest, doesn't have any military service. He avoided it. But sometimes, he does speak as if he knows how to channel how the military is feeling. Here is this moment from Tuesday about what he said about how they're feeling at Thanksgiving. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Oh, you don't worry about the Thanksgiving. These are tough people. They know what they're doing and they're great and they've done a great job. You're so worried about the Thanksgiving holiday for them. They are so proud to be representing our country on the border.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: What did you hear in that statement?

RIECKHOFF: A lack of empathy. I think you know, they are tough people. They're doing incredible things, but they also need support and it's his job to do it. It's his job to remember them on Thanksgiving. And look, you've got to go on the border, right? I mean, it's not a trip to Afghanistan. It's not that much further from Mar-a-Lago. So I think, he has to understand their service, he has to support their service, but he also has to be a part of it.

As the Commander-in-chief, you have got to increase the morale. You have got to stay connected. Nobody speaks on behalf of all the troops not me, not Donald Trump, not anybody. But I think you've got to understand their play and connect them with the American people. That's the job of the Commander-in-Chief over and over again and throughout the rest of his Presidency.

CAMEROTA: There was one more moment that the President took heat for over the weekend and that was when asked what he was thankful for. That is just a softball. That is just the moment where you talk about the troops.

RIECKHOFF: Right.

CAMEROTA: And about their sacrifice. The president had a different take. So here is that moment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What are you most thankful for, Mr. President?

TRUMP: For having a great family and for having made a tremendous difference in this country. I've made a tremendous difference in the country. This country is so much stronger now than it was when I took office that you wouldn't believe it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: How did that go over?

RIECKHOFF: Yes, I don't think they went over too well. And I think folks would be thankful if he focused on the military. Focus on fixing the VA, right, like I would be thankful, many vets would be thankful if he even commented on the fact that GI bill checks aren't being cut on time to thousands of veterans around the country. That's the kind of focus we need around the holidays. Not more politics, not praising yourself. The military is about selfless service, it's about others before yourself, and that's what we need from all leaders of all parties.

CAMEROTA: And look, the President had said that he was going to fix the VA. That was something that he talked about as candidate. So what grade do you give the President in this past few years?

RIECKHOFF: Incomplete right now. I mean, he hasn't really focused on the VA Secretary. I mean, this is a major catastrophe happening at the VA right now where folks aren't getting paid on time, around the holidays. Some of them may have to drop out of school. They are facing housing challenges, financial stress. Dig in to that, right, he has focused plenty of attention on a lot of his enemies, but not on the VA Secretary. Bring that focus and that heat down in the VA and get it cleaned up.

Every President who walks into Washington says "I'm going to clean the VA up." It's like saying, I'm going to clean up Washington, right? It's the ultimate throwaway line, but unfortunately almost every President fails and so far he's not getting it done.

CAMEROTA: So last, what's your wish list if today the President could wave his pen or wand, what would you have him fix today?

RIECKHOFF: My number is suicide. That's the number one issue for all of our members. They've talked about it. It's part of our big six. Focusing on women veterans, burn pits or our agent orange of our generation, toxin exposures that are really hurting a lot of folks, protecting the GI bill. These are the top issues that we need focus on all the time, not just around the holidays. CAMEROTA: Oh my gosh, Paul Rieckhoff, thank you so much for always

coming in and heightening our awareness.

RIECKHOFF: Anytime. Thank you, Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: We really appreciate it. John?

BERMAN: Focus all the time, not just the holidays, I like that message.

[08:30:10]