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CNN NEWSROOM

Court: Ukrainian Sailors to be Detained Two Months; Putin: Naval Clash Definitely a Provocation; Theresa May Takes Brexit Message to Scotland; Anti-Semitism Reaches Fever Pitch in France; Senate Votes to End Saudi-Led War in Yemen; Tijuana Refugee Camp Overflows, Short on Food. Aired 12-1a ET

Aired November 29, 2018 - 00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


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JOHN VAUSE, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): The rise of anti-Semitism in France as new data reveals the extent of the problem. Jews fearing for their safety are packing up and leaving the country.

Just a minor border incident: Russia's Vladimir Putin plays down the latest military confrontation with Ukraine and accuses President Poroshenko a well-planned pre-election provocation to try and boost his support.

And the U.S. Senate finds a backbone, defying President Trump and his unshakeable loyalty to the Saudi crown prince.

Hello and welcome to our viewers all around the world. Great to have you with us. I'm John Vause, this is CNN NEWSROOM.

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VAUSE: We begin with "A Shadow over Europe," our extensive investigation into the rise of anti-Semitism on the continent. CNN has spent months and looked at the surge in hate crimes and hate speech across Europe and nowhere is the problem more apparent than in France, home to the largest Jewish population in Europe.

CNN's exclusive polling shows 48 percent agree: anti-Semitism is a growing problem in France today; 29 percent of those surveyed say they know just a little or have never heard of the Holocaust. And 24 percent believe Jewish people have too much influence over global finance.

Rarely does a week pass in France without news of another anti-Semitic attack. The mood of the country is driving some Jews to leave France altogether. CNN's chief international correspondent Clarissa Ward reports from Paris.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CLARISSA WARD, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In France today, anti-Semitism is not just a prejudice. Its 26 people held hostage in a Kosher supermarket. Its three children and a teacher gunned down at a Jewish school. It's a Holocaust survivor murdered in her apartment. It's 11 body bags in 12 years.

Nathaniel Azuly (Ph) nearly ended in one, too. He says he and his brother were attacked in a Paris suburb by a group of local Muslim kids. One of them armed with a saw.

"We were in our car and it happened very quickly," he said. "It happened just because I had the kippah on."

WARD: Just because you were wearing a kippah?

WARD (voice-over): "His speech changed when he saw the kippah," he told us. "He started hurling anti-Semitic insults. Jew, you're going to die on this road."

Azuly (Ph) believes that his knowledge of Krav Maga, the martial art form favored by the Israeli military, saved his life.

Instructor Avi Atlan says he has seen an uptick in the number of young Jews wanting to learn to defend themselves.

"It's very said but that's where we are," he told us. "There are so many people who hate Jews."

According to the French government, the number of anti-Semitic acts here increased by a staggering 69 percent in the first nine months of this year and the nature of the attacks is changing, becoming more violent.

Frederic Potier has been tasked with managing the official response. He says the government does not fully understand the reason for the increase.

FREDERIC POTIER, HEAD, FRENCH GOVERNMENT OFFICE AGAINST ANTI-SEMITISM: We're worried about these figures. But we have decided not to hide these numbers. We decided to face it. And that's very important.

WARD: So, what do you say to a young French boy who is too afraid to wear a kippah?

POTIER: Don't be afraid to wear it. I need him, I need to fight anti-Semitism. I need him to fight cliche and stereotype. I need him to stand for with the republic saying that, all the French Jews are French.

WARD (voice-over): France is now spending nearly $6 million dollars on educational and online initiatives to combat hate speech. But anti-Semitism is a complex issue here. Analysts say the traditional anti-Semitism of the far-right has been compounded by a more recent threat from radical elements in France's Muslim population.

Hakim El Karoui has advised previous governments on what some are calling the new anti-Semitism. HAKIM EL KAROUI, SENIOR FELLOW, INSTITUT MONTAIGNE (through translator): We don't speak about Muslim anti-Semitism, which is a reality in which aligns the anti-Semitism from the far-right and from the far-left which is mostly directed towards Israel.

WARD (voice-over): A CNN poll found that more than a quarter of --

[00:05:00]

WARD (voice-over): -- French people have a somewhat or significantly less favorable opinion of Jews as a result of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. France is home to the largest Muslim and Jewish minorities in Europe with roughly half a million Jews and 4.7 Muslims.

But the relationship between the two communities has deteriorated steadily since the first Palestinian intifada in the year 2000. As the politics of the Middle East has lapped up on France's shores.

"They're right to be afraid because the conflict in Palestine has reached here. That's why there's this situation." Muslim resident Mallika says, "but for me when I see a Jew next to my place or on the street, I say we are the same family, they have nothing to do with what's going on in Palestine and they're afraid for their children. And that's crazy."

France does not identify the religion of those convicted of anti- Semitic crimes. Making it a difficult problem to quantify and a sensitive issue to discuss with the Muslim community that already feels discriminated against and disenfranchised.

EL KAROUI (through translator): The perception of the Muslim is that they are the victims. They are the ones who suffered from racism and discrimination. And then the Muslim community is going to tell you, yes, there is an an-Semitism problem but don't our situation. And the problem is that you start comparing victims.

WARD: Miriam and her family have considered moving from France, joining the more than 55,000 Jews who have left the year 2000. In the sanctuary of their home, they celebrate Shabbat, a ritual ushered in every Friday night by lighting candles and reciting a blessing.

MIRIAM, FRENCH CITIZEN: I'm scared for the future of my baby here, I hope that he will have a future here. And you know, Jewish community is a part of historical France. Really. And so, I think France without any Jews is not any more France.

WARD: Miriam's prayers are for a France of tolerance with her little boy can grow up free of fear, but for now, there are no signs that her prayers will be answered -- Clarissa Ward, CNN, Paris.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VAUSE: Most have reacted with shock or alarm to CNN's investigation.

The state secretary to the prime minister of France said, "The findings of the study on anti-Semitism in Europe published by CNN International are alarming. In France the increase in anti--Semitic acts, up 69 percent over the first few months of 2018, as well as the increase in homophobic acts, is an urgent concern for the government."

And Danny Danon, the Israeli ambassador to the U.N., says, "The findings tell us that it is easy to negate our history. We're barely a few generations removed from the Holocaust and yet these numbers are alarming."

On Friday, Clarissa will continue with her series of special reports when she will speak with the chief rabbi of Poland about the younger generation's frightening lack of awareness about the Holocaust.

In fact, a CNN poll has found that a third of Europeans say they know just a little or nothing at all about the systematic, state-sponsored persecution and murder of 6 million Jews by the Nazis.

Also on Friday we will hear from Edith Eger, a survivor of Auschwitz, who has dedicated her life to try and ensure the Holocaust's horrors are never forgotten.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

EDITH EGER, HOLOCAUST SURVIVOR: He pointed my mom to go to the left and I followed her. He came after me, grabbed me -- I'll never forget those eyes.

He said, "Your mother is just going to take a shower. You'll see her soon."

WARD (voice-over): Edie never saw her again. Both her parents were killed in the gas chambers of Auschwitz, along with more than 1 million Jews.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

VAUSE: Of all the horrific atrocities committed by the Nazis in the name of racial superiority, of all the grim statistics borne of mass murder on an industrial scale, keep this in mind.

Of the hundreds of thousands of children sent to Auschwitz for extermination, only 52 under the age of 8 managed to survive.

And one of those survivors is Michael Bornstein, who, along with his daughter, Debbie, is with us this hour from New York. They're also co-authors of the best-selling book "Survivors Club: The True Story of a Very Young Prisoner of Auschwitz."

Michael and Debbie, it is a real pleasure having you both here. Thank you for coming in.

MICHAEL BORNSTEIN, CO-AUTHOR, SURVIVORS CLUB: Thank you.

DEBBIE BORNSTEIN, CO-AUTHOR, SURVIVORS CLUB: Thank you.

VAUSE: Michael, I want to start with that polling we had out of Europe.

You -- are you surprised that a third of Europeans basically know nothing about the Holocaust or is that kind of the end result of the rise of these hard-right political parties in many countries?

M. BORNSTEIN: Well, I am surprised but I can tell you that my family visited --

[00:10:00]

M. BORNSTEIN: -- Austria and we had a tour guide and I asked him about Kristallnacht which happened right there in Austria and he didn't know a thing about Kristallnacht. So that's one example where Europeans just aren't familiar with it.

D. BORNSTEIN: That was a tour guide, by the way. A tour guide.

VAUSE: He's supposed to know a little bit about the history of the country, I guess.

M BORNSTEIN: Yes.

VAUSE: But when you hear that, I'm -- it's just -- it's incredibly surprising that an event is awful, this darkest moment of humanity is just being either ignored or we'll sort of not taught or people are just dealing with it in Europe.

D. BORNSTEIN: It's not being -- it's not being taught enough. I mean, you know, I look at those numbers and I -- and I feel like I'm letting my dad down. I feel like I'm letting -- like I'm not living up to what I should be doing as my role is the daughter of a survivor.

I feel this like constant need to try to make sure nobody ever forgets what happened to my dad, what happened to his mom and dad and I just -- I don't know why it's not getting through.

I don't know why people don't care. This is not ancient history. People are still walking the Earth. My dad is still here walking the Earth. This is not ancient history.

VAUSE: I mean -- and we also have the situation here in the United States. Anti-Semitism is on the rise.

These numbers which come out all the time, the Anti-Defamation League reports that the number of anti-Semitic incidents was nearly 60 percent higher in 2017 than 2016, the largest single year increase on record and the second highest number reported since ADL started tracking instant data in the 1970s.

You know, Michael, this is a country which was meant to be nothing like Europe.

This is the very place where you come, you could have freedom of religion, freedom of voice, or whatever you wanted. I guess, for the most part, it has been a fairly you know, well, the least anti-Semitic places in the world but I guess things are changing now. Well, last month a lot of Jews were shot dead at a Pittsburgh

synagogue. That gunman opened fire. Allegedly he wanted to "kill all the Jews," according to the (INAUDIBLE).

How concerned are you about where the U.S. is heading?

M. BORNSTEIN: I'm very concerned about it. First of all, during the Pittsburgh Massacre, my granddaughter had a Bat Mitzvah and that was a time for celebration.

And then we heard about Pittsburgh and it's really sad that this goes on. It's sad, the increase of neo-Nazis, white nationalists walking around. And I think we need to do something. I think the president needs to speak up and consider all this hatred that's going on in the United States.

D. BORNSTEIN: We went to actually a memorial service for -- at our own synagogue, my dad and I together, for victims in Pittsburgh and there was so much security there. And I have to tell you, my dad and I like every single Jewish person in the room was watching the exits and we know exactly how we would make our escape. Why do we have to think about that in a synagogue, you know? And my dad, I hate that he feels fear here. He escaped --

M. BORNSTEIN: And there were police all around the synagogue and not just synagogues, we talked a number of different places at schools and we have the same kind of story that we have police and guards.

And you know, it's concerning for me because I have a tattoo on my hand -- you might have seen it -- it reads B1148 and my name is Bornstein. And that really is a prime target.

VAUSE: You shouldn't have to worry. It shouldn't be a target. It shouldn't be an issue. I mean, this is -- this is the -- this is why don't get right now.

I just want to get back in time because, Michael, when you were four years old, that's when the Soviet Army liberated Auschwitz and on that day came that very famous image of you and you know a few other children wearing those striped prisoner uniforms.

But then decades later here in the U.S., your image from all these years ago, it was actually being used by Holocaust deniers to prove that, hey, Auschwitz wasn't so bad after all. And that's the moment when you decided to write the book with Debbie.

I guess, how difficult was it to go -- to go back there and to talk about what happened to you and your family?

M. BORNSTEIN: We were extremely concerned about looking on the internet, looking at a computer and seeing these deniers because Auschwitz happened, the Holocaust happened and I think people need to be educated about it. So this was a time that Debbie and I decided it's time to write a book about the Holocaust and my experiences and it has been on "The New York Times" bestseller list and we're very proud of that. D. BORNSTEIN: Yes, it's encouraging to know that people are reading

it and that they care. But my fear is that the right people aren't reading it and so we need --

(CROSSTALK)

VAUSE: People should need to read it;, I'm reading it.

D. BORNSTEIN: -- yes, exactly. Those are the ones in denial. And I'm so proud of my dad for kind of coming out of the shadows and telling his story after 70-plus years.

(CROSSTALK)

VAUSE: Debbie --

[00:15:00]

VAUSE: -- just very quickly, because he hadn't -- he hadn't spoken a lot about everything he went through.

So when he started telling everything to you, was that tough to hear?

D. BORNSTEIN: It was so hard. It was so hard. "Survivors Club," writing "Survivors Club" was the biggest labor of love in my entire life. I knew my dad. I've always known that my dad had that tattoo on his arm. I've always known in my memory that he, you know, can never remember not knowing that he wasn't in Auschwitz.

But hearing him talk about his experiences, remembering the smell of burning flesh and the sound of Nazi boots marching, to hear your dad talk about that -- and even after the war, the malnourishment; his hair fell out from malnourishment, he was sexually assaulted.

My dad experienced so much that he had protected my siblings and me from it. He had never talked about it. He wanted to protect us and I'm really proud of him for realizing that to be strong sometimes, you know, you have to be weak and he was -- and he was so vulnerable and opened up and I was so, so super proud of him.

M. BORNSTEIN: We do have 12 grandchildren.

VAUSE: Right.

M. BORNSTEIN: And when they talked to us and asked us about the Holocaust and asked us to talk about it, I just couldn't say no. So that really got it started as well.

VAUSE: That's great. Look, Debbie and Michael, I can talk to you all night, but we are out of time. But thank you. Thank you for coming in and thank you for everything you do. It's appreciated.

D. BORNSTEIN: Thank you so much for having us.

M. BORNSTEIN: Thanks for inviting us.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VAUSE: There's a lot more about anti-Semitism in Europe and the alarming results of that CNN poll on our website, cnn.com/antisemitism.

Still to come on NEWSROOM, Russia's president brushes off a maritime clash with Ukraine, describing the armed seizure of three Ukranian naval ships "totally legal." Just a minor incident.

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VAUSE: The U.S. Senate has voted 63-37 to advance a resolution that would ultimately end American support for the Saudi-led war in Yemen. It came just hours after CIA director Gina Haspel --

[00:20:00]

VAUSE: -- was a no-show at a closed door Senate briefing about the conflict. Lawmakers now want to know why Haspel's agency strongly suspects the Saudi crown prince was behind the murder of journalist Jamal Khashoggi and why the Trump administration just won't knowledge that.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

VAUSE: So when it comes to comes to global crises, we turn to Michael Moran. He's with the international consulting firm Control Risks. He joins us now from Denver in Colorado.

Mike, thanks for being with us.

If we look at this resolution that got passed through the Senate it's still a long, long way from becoming reality. But ultimately the plan would be to invoke the war powers resolution, which gives Congress oversight of the kind of military offensive.

So what are the chances it will survive in its current form and then actually be implemented?

MICHAEL MORAN, CONTROL RISKS: It's probably pretty unlikely that it would survive in its current form. I think the Senate is flexing its muscles a bit. It's a very unusual coalition of Democrats and Republicans for this era to be pushing this through.

And this is really just moving a resolution out of the committee level into the full Senate. In the meantime, I think what they're saying, we're not buying your line, President Trump, that, you know, the prince had nothing to do with the journalist's murder.

We don't buy the idea that there's, you know, due diligence being done on the Saudi side with regard to their war in Yemen. And we're going to demand something more than lip service in return. And I think what the administration is likely to do is come to the table with something that falls far short of what the Democrats want but will give cover for the Republicans to back down a bit.

VAUSE: You know the last time a vote came before the Senate to limit the U.S. role in Yemen's war is back in March. That resolution failed to pass 55 to 44. This time around, it's a mirror image -- 63 in favor and 37 opposed.

Is the only major factor here and what's changed in all of this is the murder of the journalist Jamal Khashoggi and the direct connection to the Saudi crown prince?

Is that the only thing which has changed the vote?

MORAN: You know, I think there's been -- there's been a good deal of unease about the war in Yemen for some time dating back to Mr. Obama's presidency. It has become worse and worse with regard to the attention that's been paid, at least within, you know, the Washington bubble and among the now much-maligned elites in the United States.

It's become something of a cause celebre that, you know, this can't go on, that American arms -- American intelligence are enabling a war that looks very lopsided and very much like a punitive war rather than anything that's advancing U.S. interests at least.

The other issue is, I think there's been some push back on the inflated numbers that Mr. Trump has been throwing around with regard to the Saudi arms deals that have been negotiated. You know, they're multiples of 10 and 20 times larger in the rhetoric for the president than it actually exists on paper.

So that's bothered Congress a bit. Certainly they don't want to upset any arms sales. I don't think they'll go that far. They all recognize that it would be very easy to be used against them if there were jobs lost in any of their districts.

But I think they are a little concerned with the inflated numbers that are being thrown around, the $110 billion in arms, which is a complete fantasy.

VAUSE: Yes. I was going to comment the other day, it was just kind of made-up stuff. It's, you know, unicorns jumping over rainbows.

But what we saw in the Senate on Wednesday was a full-court press by the White House sending only the true believers there to defend the president and support for the Saudis. Here's the Defense Secretary James Mattis. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMES MATTIS, U.S. SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: We have no smoking gun that the crown prince was involved, not the intelligence community or anyone else. There is no smoking gun. We have not changed that accountability for the murder is our expectation of everyone involved in the murder. Accountability is our position. That's not changed at all.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VAUSE: In case you missed it, there's no smoking gun. There was also the former CIA director, now secretary of state Mike Pompeo, who had a very sort of similar line. Here's what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE POMPEO, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: I believe I've read every piece of intelligence in the last few hours. I think I reads it all. There is no direct reporting connecting the crown prince to the order of the murder of Jamal Khashoggi. That's all I can say in a non-classified setting.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VAUSE: OK. So well, they were there testifying before the Senate. The current director of the CIA, Gina Haspel, was a no-show.

Is that because the administration was worried that, you know, she knows stuff and she would have to testify and tell the truth or were they worried that she would actually testify under oath the CIA is right and the president is wrong?

MORAN: Well, there's two things going on. First of all, you know, absolving Saudi Arabia because --

[00:25:00]

MORAN: -- the crown prince can't be proven to be -- have his hands on a gun, you know, that's ridiculous.

I mean, did Hillary Clinton get a pass for Benghazi?

No. That was, you know, something that went up the chain of command as it does in a mature democracy. And, you know, it hit her hard. And whether it was fair or not, the buck stops at the top. So we're absolving the prince, which is kind of silly.

With regard to the arguments that the administration is making, you know, the two people they sent, the secretary of state and Secretary of Defense are people who would make a strategic argument.

And there is a strategic argument for not upsetting completely the relationship with Saudi Arabia particularly since the Trump administration decided to pull away from the more even-handed or at least nuanced policy toward Iran that Obama was pursuing.

So now you need Saudi Arabia. You've put yourself in this position where you put all your eggs in one basket. So it is in some ways the administration's own fault that they've maneuvered themselves into this position. They have to stick with it.

Whether Haspel would have faced questions, absolutely. She certainly is the person who listened to the tape, who produced an analytical verdict that there was involvement from the top in Saudi Arabia. And the Senate Foreign Relations Committee has every right to ask those questions.

VAUSE: And quite possibly the only person in the administration who listened to that recording of Khashoggi's death.

Michael, thank you. Appreciate you being with us.

MORAN: Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VAUSE: U.S. troops could be spending more time on the border with Mexico, possibly until late January and maybe longer. The initial deployment was scheduled to end December 15th. All of this comes as a refugee camp in Tijuana is bursting at the seams, overwhelmed with migrants hoping for asylum in the United States.

Tijuana's mayor is saying it is a crisis. He's asking for humanitarian assistance. CNN's Leyla Santiago is there.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LEYLA SANTIAGO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Long lines every day, one for women and children the other for men that are waiting here, some say for hours, just to get a small plate of food.

Food, many telling me, is a very limited resource. The state tells me they spent 27,000 U.S. dollars just to feed this caravan.

Let me actually show you exactly what they get. It looks like spaghetti and soup. This is what will feed this young child and this gentlemen.

Gracias.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Gracias.

SANTIAGO: This is a family from Honduras, who I actually met earlier, saying that they are fleeing violence to hopefully for them to get asylum in the United States; that is their goal.

But I also want to walk over here to sort of show you what it is like. A lot of people crowding outside and this is outside the shelter, so you could see, again, many of them here, because it is time for a meal, but also, down over here, they actually have some tents that have been set up. Many of them using plastic right now to put some tarps over, because there's a concern that there could be rain in the next 24 hours.

And those tarps may cover them from above but that does not provide any sort of relief from any water that may get on the ground.

I spoke to a volunteer with one of three medical teams out here. He said they are seeing more than 150 people a day, many with respiratory infections; lice is an issue as well as stomach issues. So how long these migrants will be will be willing to stay under these conditions for what many call a dream, a hope of a better life, we'll have to wait and see -- Leyla Santiago, CNN, Tijuana.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VAUSE: With that, we'll take a short break. You're watching CNN.

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[00:30:00] VAUSE: Welcome back, everybody, I'm John Vause. Vladimir Putin says a naval confrontation of Crimea was long planned by the president of Ukraine, to boost his sagging popularity, ahead of March elections.

On Sunday, Russian forces seized three small Ukrainian ships and detained the crew, accusing them of violating Russian territory (INAUDIBLE) responded by imposing Martial Law in areas around the border. The president then warned Moscow could launch a full-scale invasion.

But, Vladimir Putin says Ukraine's president is playing a political game which could very well backfire. CNN's Fred Pleitgen has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: The three Ukrainian ships remain impounded at the other end of the bridge, where I'm standing at, right now, in the port town of Kerch. And a court in Crimea has also announced that 24 Ukrainian sailors who were on board those ships are going to remain in detention, for at least two months, awaiting a trial.

The Russians, of course, accused them of entering, illegally, into Russia's territory. Now, Russian President Vladimir Putin, he came out on Wednesday, and he said that he believed the incident was what he called, a planned provocation by the Ukrainian government and its president, Petro Poroshenko, when the Russian say was in trouble, ahead of an election in Ukraine.

That's one of the reasons why the Russians say they believe that this maneuver was pulled off. The Ukrainians, of course, very much, denying, that they continue to say that it's the Russians who provoked this incident and are in breach of international law.

Now, the U.S. special representative to Ukraine, he came out and he said, those ships need to be given back by the Russians, immediately, and the U.S. Secretary of Defense, James Mattis, also coming out and blasting the Russians, saying their showing that their word "cannot be trusted."

The Russians were not feeling as much blowback from the U.S. president. Dmitry Peskov, the spokesman for Russia's president, Vladimir Putin, saying he believes that despite this recent standoff, that meeting, between presidents Trump and Putin at the G20 summit, that's upcoming, of course, that, that meeting is still very much on. And Russia's President Vladimir Putin, he himself came out and he said that he still believes that President Trump is positively inclined to bettering relations between the United States and Russia despite the incident that took place right -- near where I'm standing, right now.

Fred Pleitgen, CNN, Taman, Russia.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VAUSE: Jill Dougherty joins us now. Jill is a CNN contributor and former CNN Moscow bureau chief. Good to see you.

JILL DOUGHERTY, CNN CONTRIBUTOR (via Skype): Hi John.

VAUSE: OK, you know, we've heard from the Russians, putting a couple of arguments out there that everything they did was perfectly legal under international law. Fred just mentioned Vladimir Putin saying this was actually just all planned. It was a provocation by the Ukrainian president. Let's listen to Vladimir Putin for a moment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VLADIMIR PUTIN, PRESIDENT OF RUSSIA (through translator): Now, a small incident occurred and Martial Law was introduced in the country. This is being done, obviously, in the run-up to the presidential poll. This is an absolutely obvious fact. Now, on this specific incident or this provocation to be precise, and this is a provocation, for sure.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VAUSE: OK. Just from a very practical, maybe even cynical point of view, does it actually make any difference who's in the right and who's wrong, because, it doesn't matter. It doesn't -- it won't change Russia's behavior, will it?

DOUGHERTY: Well, I mean, there are principles in this world. And you have a definition, a disagreement over the daring fact of what that water is, what are territorial waters? Who does it belong to, Ukraine or Russia?

I mean, there is -- there was an agreement between the two countries to, in effect, split control, to share control of the Sea of Azov and around that area, the Black Sea.

[00:35:11] So, if Russia is now saying, no, that's our territory, then they are expanding their concept of sovereignty in that area, and why it's important, John, is remember what we're talking about that area is Crimea. The part of Ukraine that was annexed by Russia, many consider it illegal.

The Russians (INAUDIBLE) that it was not illegal. But that's the principle. And if you can fire on somebody who is in international waters, then, there's a problem.

VAUSE: All right, OK. Well, along with imposing Martial Law, the president of Ukraine has warned that this incident could very quickly escalate. Listen to him.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PETRO POROSHENKO, PRESIDENT OF UKRAINE (through translator): We must insure effective personnel training, so that when needed, the enemy will be defeated and will pay a high price for an irresponsible decision to invade Ukrainian territory.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VAUSE: He's going to be the internal optimist, I mean, the chances of a Ukrainian victory over Russian forces would be, what, next to nothing on a good day?

DOUGHERTY: Maybe even less. No, seriously, the Ukrainians hardly have a navy. Their army has gotten better, obviously, with the fighting, but they have no naval -- real naval presence, so there's no way that they can compete.

I mean, what you got here is the political overlay in the situation, which is, it is true, that there will be elections, presidential elections, at the end of March of this coming year, 2019, and President Poroshenko hasn't really said he's going to run. But, his ratings are somewhere around, I think, it's 10 percent. He's not doing well.

So, what Putin is saying, look, number one, this is not a big incident, this is just overreaction and politically motivated, but once again, you have kind of the same thing happening. Russia setting something up, reacting, and then, accusing the other side of overreacting.

It's what we're seeing quite frequently and especially in this area of Ukraine and Crimea and the pressing, constant pressing that Russia has against Ukraine.

VAUSE: Yes. It does seem to be a familiar play that, obviously, it's (INAUDIBLE) past. We'll not do it again. Here's the U.S. Defense secretary, he made it very clear that it is Putin who is in the wrong. Here's James Mattis.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMES MATTIS, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE, UNITED STATES: It was obviously a flagrant violation of international law. It was, I think, a cavalier use of force that injured Ukrainian sailors. It was contempt really for the traditional ways for settling these kinds concerns if they had any.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VAUSE: I mean, take that for its worth, earlier, we've heard from the U.S. president who threatened he might cancel talks with Putin at the coming G20. The response from the U.S. so far, seems to be the equivalent of being hit with a wet piece of lettuce. Just doesn't seem to be quickly, you know, motivated there, in any major way. DOUGHERTY: Well, again, we have another -- the same pattern. We have members of the administration that -- Donald Trump, coming out, look at Nikki Haley at the United Nations, and then these later statements.

The strong statements against Russia, accusing that we can't trust them, et cetera. But when it comes to President Trump, he temporizes, or he says, we don't like, I mean, that actually was -- what we don't like, this aggression.

What does that mean? This is the problem. What does that mean? Will there be punishment? Will he meet with Putin? Will he bring up this, with Putin? It's a real disconnect between the rhetoric and the actions.

And many people are saying the principle here dictates that you have some type of reaction against sanctions, whatever it might be. But, this administration does not appear to be doing anything. It's saying a lot of things.

VAUSE: Right. Jill, thank you. It's good to see you.

OK. We'll take a break. When we come back, Britain's prime minister is on a publicity blitz trying to sell her Brexit deal. But, in a moment, we'll tell you why Scotland isn't buying what she's selling.

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[00:40:00] VAUSE: Right now, Britain's prime minister is staring at the defeat of her Brexit deal, in parliament votes, in less than two weeks. Theresa May insists the deal brokered with European Leaders will be good for the U.K., but she continues to face strong opposition both from within and from outside her Party.

CNN's Erin McLaughlin is in Scotland, where the prime minister is now hoping for a little last minute support.

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ERIN MCLAUGHLIN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Convincing Scotland was always going to be a tough slug. In the Brexit referendum, the Scots overwhelmingly voted to remain. So, British Prime Minister Theresa May is, perhaps, not the most welcomed guest.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think she's got brass neck, to suddenly ask for Scotland's support, when she's ignored us, disrespected us, and undermined our parliament.

MCLAUGHLIN: If she's in Glasggow today, if you could meet her, what would you tell her?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bleep.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't think I would speak to her.

MCLAUGHLIN: Despite some bitter feelings, the industrial city of Glasgow is a stop on May's Brexit tour, show of inclusivity, ahead of a historic parliamentary vote, her Brexit deal, fresh from the negotiating table.

THERESA MAY, PRIME MINISTER OF BRITAIN: I'm here today, talking to employers, hearing from people, and talking to them about the Brexit deal that we've negotiated for the U.K. So, this is a deal that is right for Scotland and right for Scottish fishermen.

MCLAUGHLIN: This is a tightly controlled P.R. event, in fact, this is as close as we are able to get. It's being held at a leather goods factory known for supplying to British parliament. And in Scotland, this is about as friendly as it gets for Theresa May.

Inside the city itself, people recoil at the thought of leaving the E.U., and Theresa May's Brexit deal.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You can't just say that you either got this deal or no deal, because that means that there's no other deals, you know.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Democracy doesn't work that way. Democracy does not work through a simple majority. You have to have consensus, and she chose to ignore that.

MCLAUGHLIN: And, do you want to see an independent Scotland? Do you want to see another --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now? Yes, absolutely. I did not, when we voted originally, but I do now.

MCLAUGHLIN: The government needs all the help it can get to see Theresa May's deal through, but from Scotland, there's little support, plenty of anger, and perhaps, a new problem for the United Kingdom.

Erin McLaughlin, CNN, Glasgow.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VAUSE: Thank you for watching CNN NEWSROOM. I'm John Vause. Please stay with us, "WORLD SPORT" is up next. You're watching CNN.

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