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HALA GORANI TONIGHT
Residents Told to Shelter in Place after Quake Hits Alaska; White House Says Mueller Probe is "Undermining" U.S.-Russia Relations; Ignorance of Holocaust Mirrors Rise in Anti-Semitism. Aired 2-3p ET
Aired November 30, 2018 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): This is CNN breaking news.
HANNAH VAUGHAN JONES, CNN HOST: Welcome to the program. We do begin with breaking news and a chaotic scene in Alaska right now. Authorities are
telling everyone there to shelter in place after an earthquake struck near the city of Anchorage.
Officials have issued a tsunami warning as well. Phone lines are impacted. Roads are closed and one of CNN's affiliates was knocked off the air when
its roof collapsed. There are reports of an overpass that may have collapsed, as well.
Let's go to Nick Watt who's standing by in Los Angeles with the latest.
Nick, I guess the best source of information at the moment is social media.
What are we hearing?
NICK WATT, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It is. We're seeing videos of pendant lights swinging furiously at a coffee shop with everything knocked off the
table. Some windows smashed. Also the phone lines are down. We have spoken to a number of people inside Anchorage.
One man, Philip Peterson (ph), said, "I could tell this was bigger than anything I'd been in before and it wasn't going to stop."
We have also heard from an Anchorage assembly member, Pete Peterson (ph). He says everything shook off the walls. The prints fell off the walls,
But now listen. You mentioned that TV station was downed. Phone lines are down. So getting information out is a little bit tricky right now.
But we have heard from the Anchorage Police Department that they are dealing with multiple situations. And I can -- a quote from them is that
there's major infrastructure damage across Anchorage, many homes and buildings are damaged.
We hear they're dealing with stuff also and the Department of Transportation have had numerous reports of damage. They're out trying to
assess it right now.
It is not just the initial shock. That was at about 8:30 this morning local time. About 11 miles north-northwest of Anchorages, we have also
heard from Wasilla, which is maybe 40-50 kilometers away, which is where Sarah Palin lives. She ran for vice president famously.
She tweets, "Our family is intact. House is not."
I imagine that's the case for many, many others. The school district in Anchorage also closed. They're also assessing the damage. So we hear
major infrastructure issues. We do not yet know exactly what those are.
But as you mentioned, that tsunami warning is in place for the Kenai Peninsula and the Cook Inlet. It seems fairly localized for now. And as I
mentioned, that one person saying he had never felt anything like this before.
Of course, back in 1964, there was a 9.2 earthquake up there that killed more than 100 people, mainly through the tsunami. So we're still waiting
as news trickles in from Anchorage after this 7.0 quake this morning. And now, up to eight aftershocks felt in the area.
JONES: You mentioned then, Nick, about the aftershocks. We have been hearing from the U.S. Geological Survey, they've been saying at least eight
aftershocks as well.
I guess, with that in mind, the advice to residents, to people who are stuck in this situation, in and around Anchorage at the moment, what are
they being told to do?
Are they being told to just stay exactly where they are?
WATT: People are being told to shelter in place and advised to turn off the gas supply to their homes. But of course, in areas where there's
issues with the tsunami, they're being -- people in certain areas are being told to get to higher ground.
But in Anchorage itself, it appears that people are being told to shelter in place as these aftershocks do continue and as authorities try to assess
the breadth of the damage. As we have heard, major infrastructure issues; buildings, according to the police department, damaged across Anchorage and
JONES: Nick, as we talk to you, we are looking at video of one particular road, a highway that just looks like it completely collapsed in the middle
of it. You mentioned about Alaska's or Anchorage's history with earthquakes.
Does that mean that the infrastructure is built to withstand such quakes now?
WATT: Well, it's going to -- we'll see if it's been built to withstand once we see -- yes. Across the U.S., a lot of buildings have been
retrofitted to deal with earthquake threat but it is unclear exactly what we are going to see in Anchorage.
This is a city of more than 300,000 people and the epicenter of this first quake was very close. As I mentioned, just 11 kilometers away but about 40
kilometers deep underground but very close to that inlet and that is why we have this tsunami threat, as well.
As you can see now, these are the images we are getting from Anchorage on social media of fairly minor damage so far that we have seen. But, of
course, there is that one what looks like a ramp onto a highway that has completely collapsed.
And over the next few hours we'll get more of an indication exactly how bad the damage has been. Back to you.
JONES: Nick, you've --
JONES: -- talked about the Alaskan police department there. Obviously working overtime at the moment just to make sure that they can try to get
to anyone who needs help and trying to deal with the infrastructure problems you have been discussing.
But what about the ambulance, hospitals?
Have we heard any word from them yet as to any people needing help?
WATT: We have not had reports yet of injuries or fatalities. We have heard from the police department that their 9-1-1 call center is fully
staffed and they're dealing with multiple situations, is how they put it. So listen. As we've been discussing, it's very early still in this process
and it is difficult to get information out of Anchorage.
So we'll get those details over the coming hours. But so far, we have not heard any reports of injuries to people or deaths. We have heard there's
some major infrastructure damage, damage to buildings across Anchorage. So far, that's all we are hearing.
JONES: All right. Nick Watt in Los Angeles for us, thank you so much. Stay across the story. I know you will and come back to us as soon as you
have further details.
That one person who was in Anchorage at the time of the quake describes the moment it struck. Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
BLAIR BRAVEMAN, QUAKE SURVIVOR: I grew up in California. I've felt earthquakes before. But this was the next level. Just the bed started
shaking. Everything was shaking so dramatically.
My husband sort of crawled across the room and threw himself on top of me and we crawled to the bathroom together and waited it out in the doorway
and waited out the aftershocks.
After that, people were running down the halls, banging on the doors to evacuate. All the power was out and it was so dark here. The sun hadn't
risen. So you really couldn't get light from outside the window, either.
We are on the road and there's just a lot of stop and go traffic of people trying to get to high ground. But, you know, we are getting reports about
onramps crumbled, sinkholes in the road, rockslides covering the road. There's a lot of mountainous areas around here and people are trying to
figure out how to get out safely.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
JONES: Reporters at CNN affiliate KTVA described falling window panes at their station's offices. Take a listen as a station meteorologist
described the scene. This is just in the last hour.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEREMY LAGOO, KTVA METEOROLOGIST: If you are in a building, you should just get out. It's one of those points where, if it's a higher building,
it gets more compromised as it goes up. There's a lot of structural engineering that goes into it. There's a lot of chemicals that are in the
building. And like John said, my voice is still a little scratchy from breathing, just evacuating.
So we grabbed a couple of things and ran out and in that short period of time got soaking wet, got stuff in our lungs. It is one of those
situations where you just want to be safe. Even the road right behind us, it's backed up with traffic. People look like they're trying to get home,
trying to get to family. Cell service is spotty at best.
And that's one of the things that we are still monitoring. It is one of those situations where it's hard to get information. But right now, once
again, what we do know, five miles north of Anchorage, a 7.0 earthquake, there are multiple roads and overpasses shut down around town. Multiple
reports of fire. So just do everything you can to be safe and just take it slow right now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JONES: Okay. So that was one from -- one of our affiliates there in an Anchorage, Alaska. The latest we're hearing is that the tsunami warning
has been canceled but still a very serious situation unfolding there in Anchorage, Alaska, 7.0 magnitude quake. We'll bring you further details
when we have them.
Let's turn our attention to Argentina now, where as we speak, the most powerful leaders in the world are shaping the fate of global policy as we
In the past couple of hours, President Trump met the prime ministers of India and Japan. Trade was high on their agenda especially as the U.S.
president prepares to meet China's leader on Saturday.
Now that issue dominated earlier in the day, as well. You're looking at a picture of Mr. Trump signing a new trade deal with Mexico and Canada.
But for all the sense of progress abroad, there's trouble back home. A guilty plea from Mr. Trump's former lawyer is something that's reportedly
souring the president's mood altogether.
In today's big developments at the G20, President Trump briefly met the Saudi crown prince, Mohammed bin Salman, but from Mr. Trump says of the
encounter, it was simply (AUDIO GAP).
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. President, what did you discuss with MBS?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Come on.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. President?
TRUMP: We had no discussion. We had no discussion.
TRUMP: We had no discussion. We might but we had none.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JONES: So no discussions there. But Mohammed bin Salman certainly appeared to enjoy this moment with the Russian president. Both leaders are
under close scrutiny right now with Moscow's standoff in Ukraine and the murder of journalist Jamal Khashoggi --
JONES: -- dominating the headlines. The French president told the Saudi crown prince that international experts need to be part of the ongoing
Khashoggi investigation. Our Nic Robertson joins us now from Buenos Aires with all the latest.
Nic, it is always an interesting picture when you put world leaders together in one room and there have been some surprise interactions for us
this time around.
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: And I think you called out one of them there, that sort of very joyous greeting between
President Putin and Mohammed bin Salman, the crown prince of Saudi Arabia.
We have also seen President Xi of China, Xi Jinping, standing next to Mohammed bin Salman, having their photograph taken. Not clear what was
We know what was said last night when the Indian prime minister, Modi, met with Mohammed bin Salman. The discussion apparently not about Jamal
Khashoggi; all about Saudi investment in India.
So those have been sort of some of the meetings that people will look at to see the body language, to see how international leaders were going to react
to Mohammed bin Salman.
Of course, his is an effort by him to rehabilitate himself and the image of Saudi Arabia on the global stage, so that's all under way. British Prime
Minister Theresa May is meeting with him right around now. She has said she is going to be firm on the issue of Jamal Khashoggi, wanting to make
sure that there is a full and thorough and clear and transparent investigation.
But I think one of the sort of surprises today, if you will, was to hear from the Argentinian president Macri and his opening statements really be
very, very clear about the need to get a joint communique, the need for dialogue, the need for multilateralism.
And these are all things that at least the multilateralism that are anathema to President Trump, really seemed to highlight what was going on
behind the scenes, that President Trump doesn't want to sign up to a final joint communique that talks about free trade. He wants fair trade. He
doesn't want one that talks about global climate change.
And this was something that President Macri talked about, about the need for sustainable growth, the need to do that for the people, you know, for
all the people in the world. So really, the big issues, the G20, being opened up at the very beginning here by President Macri.
JONES: We heard at the beginning of the summit that Donald Trump was in a, quote, "terrible mood." I wonder if the mood has improved at all and
whether the overall success of the entire summit hangs on Donald Trump's every whim.
ROBERTSON: I think a lot of people here are really hoping that he can work out a deal with China. He said it would be good if we can. I think China
wants it. We got good people, smart people working on it.
But there really is a big sense here that, you know, with that meeting, of these two leaders tomorrow, Xi Jinping and President Trump, how that
meeting goes can really have a major impact on the global economy.
So there is concern, you know, at that level here by all the leaders here. So you know, that permeates the atmosphere.
Yes, President Trump had a moment in the sun this morning with the signing of the new NAFTA agreement, so-called USMCA, rather. That was a positive
moment for him. And he was busy there. He's been busy in the afternoon. He met with Shinzo Abe, the Japanese prime minister. He met with Modi, the
prime minister of India as well.
So he's been busy. But, you know, having arrived in this sort of so-called foul mood, he does seem to have been, you know, have had his work cut out
for him with all the meetings on the ground at the moment. So I don't think we'll be able to see that overcast temperament play out here, if it
does play out at all.
JONES: I think we can call it the new NAFTA agreement. We don't need to get our heads around all the new abbreviations. Nic Robertson, live for us
in Buenos Aires, thanks very much, indeed.
And now even while President Trump is tackling a world of problems, of course, at the G20, new revelations back home in the Russia investigation
are clearly weighing on his mind.
Today he's defending his business dealings during his presidential campaign, calling them on Twitter, quote, "very legal and very cool."
The president's former lawyer, Michael Cohen, admitted in a plea deal that he was trying to help Mr. Trump land a real estate project in Moscow just
months before the election. Cohen said he lied about it to Congress, to be consistent with Mr. Trump's political messaging.
Now Donald Trump's own intelligence agencies have found that Russia, indeed, interfered in the U.S. election, acting as a hostile power. But
today the White House is lashing out at special counsel Mueller's investigation, saying it undermines U.S. relations with Russia. Let's
bring in CNN White House reporter Steven Collinson for more on this.
JONES: This statement from Sarah Sanders, the press secretary, it seems everyone in the Trump administration at the moment can't stop talking about
STEPHEN COLLINSON, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: That's right. On the face of what she says, it's correct. The Mueller investigation and the
fallout and the political controversy is undermining Donald Trump's administration's efforts to improve relations with Russia.
And it makes it almost impossible to have any kind of meeting that's not overshadowed by the Russia investigation. The problem is that that, of
course, is largely due to Donald Trump himself. He's given all sorts of reasons for us to be suspicious about his relationship with Vladimir Putin.
There's a clear split inside the administration between much of the structure of the State Department and the Pentagon, who want to be tough on
Russia, and you have this cozy relationship between Trump and Putin.
And as we learned from Robert Mueller's court filings yesterday, Donald Trump was conducting business with the Russian state right up to the middle
of the 2016 election campaign, when he was already the presumptive Republican nominee.
So it's not as though there aren't many, many reasons for everybody to be suspicious about his relationship with Vladimir Putin. And it's sort of
undermines the spirit, I think, of that Sarah Sanders statement.
JONES: As we look at the special counsel's ongoing investigation by Robert Mueller, of course, everyone's looking for collusion. Donald Trump saying
there was no collusion. No smoking gun but certainly an awful lot of smoke.
COLLINSON: Yes. And what the Robert Mueller filing yesterday and the announcement he has a cooperation with Trump's former lawyer, Michael
Cohen, did, it sort of gave some texture and it perhaps hinted at the reasons why the president might be very solicitous to Vladimir Putin and
might be beholden to him.
Because after all, for half of the campaign, he was trying to seal a deal for a Trump Tower in Moscow. And then having said that there were no
contacts between him and Russia in a business sense, he was effectively compromised by the Russians because they knew that there were.
So I think that is one of the reasons why what we saw yesterday advances the collusion case perhaps.
JONES: All right. Stephen Collinson, live for us there in Washington, thanks so much. We appreciate it.
Still to come on the program tonight, the alarming ignorance of the Holocaust. We'll tell you just how many Europeans know little about it or,
more shockingly, have never even heard of it. The latest in our "A Shadow over Europe" series is up next.
JONES: Welcome back to the program.
The Holocaust, one of the darkest chapters in modern history, a horror so abominable it would seem unforgettable to forget it. But more than seven
decades on and there are worrying signs --
JONES: -- that may be the case. A new CNN poll shows an alarming number of people in Europe, of all places, don't even know about it. A shocking
34 percent of Europeans surveyed said they know little about the Holocaust or have never heard of it.
Just as disturbing, 31 percent say they believe commemorating the Holocaust distracts from other atrocities and injustices today.
Edith Eger survived the Nazi death camp at Auschwitz. Today she has a message for young people. Here is what she told our Clarissa Ward in the
latest installment of our special series, "A Shadow over Europe."
EDITH EGER, HOLOCAUST SURVIVOR: It was hell. It was hell and yet I'm here. I'm here hopefully to tell young people that I count on them.
CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Edith Eger was 16 years old when she arrived at Auschwitz from her native Hungary with her
family in May 1944.
Nazi physician Josef Mengele was standing at the end of the train platform known as the Angel of Death. He performed cruel and often deadly medical
experiments on his prisoners.
EGER: We pointed my mom to go to the left and I followed. He came after me, grabbed me. I never forget those eyes. He said your mother is just
going to take a shower. You'll see her soon.
WARD: Edith never saw her again. Both her parents were killed in the gas chambers of Auschwitz along with one million Jews. Hundreds of thousands
of others were worked or starved to death. Edith did see Dr. Mengele again.
EGER: He came to the barracks and he wanted to be entertained so they volunteered me and I ended up dancing and closing my eyes and pretending
that the music was Tchaikovsky and I was dancing the "Romeo and Juliet" in the Budapest Opera House.
WARD (voice-over): It was that powerful spirit and imagination that helped Edith to survive the unsurvivable. It would be with eight months before
Soviet troops would liberate the death camp, discovering horrors that remain etched on humanity's conscience 73 years later.
JONES: Our Clarissa Ward there with the story of one Holocaust survivor, Edith Eger.
Our next guest arrived in the U.K. in 1939 as a 6-year-old refugee, fleeing the persecution of Jews in Nazi-occupied Czechoslovakia. Alfred Dubs is
well-known here in the U.K. as a politician and campaigner for refugees. I'm delighted to say Alfred Dubs joins me in the studio.
We were hearing there from one Holocaust survivor talking about that fear that perhaps this moment in history is being wiped from modern history
lessons, from modern people and their recollections.
How concerned are you that it's just going to be completely ignored?
ALFRED DUBS, BRITISH LABOUR PEER AND REFUGEE CAMPAIGNER: Well, I share her concern very, very much. Of course, there are projects whereby
schoolchildren are taken to Auschwitz so that they can see for themselves. I think they have to do more of that because -- because if young people are
aware of what happened then they'll be conscious of the need to stop it happening ever again.
JONES: Interesting you mention about school trips; I was actually privileged as a 13-14-year-old schoolgirl to go to Auschwitz-Birkenau on a
school trip and that was before I'd even learned about it in history.
But it remains etched in my mind as a result of having been there. There are obviously -- the impact through education is fantastic if that
education is there.
But how much is it important to have the political will there as well, to keep this narrative going?
DUBS: I think it's absolutely crucial. If we forget about the Holocaust, we are doing an enormous disservice to the victims of the Holocaust. The
woman you heard just then.
We're also not encouraging the future generation to be aware that this happened. It could happen again. And if we're not aware of what happened
in the past, we're not alert to stopping it happening next time.
JONES: All week we have been looking at anti-Semitism and the rise of anti-Semitism across Europe at the moment. It seems to be sort of a
blanket term for all sorts of anti things, be it anti-globalization, or nationalism or populism or something like that.
Are you concerned in particular about what's happening right now, with the political makeup of leaders that we have around the world, that anti-
Semitism is being allowed to thrive?
DUBS: I think our political leaders across the world could be doing a lot better than they're doing. I'm being very polite about this. And I think
it's a disgrace. There can't be a political leader who's not aware of what happened in the 1930s and the 1940s and if they're just turning a blind --
DUBS: -- eye to it, they're letting themselves down but they're letting the next generation down. I think it's awful, awful.
JONES: What more could they do?
DUBS: I think everybody should be made aware of what happened during the Holocaust. I think we have to step up all over Europe, the educational
programs, and make sure young people are taken to see Auschwitz or other camps and are aware of what went on.
It's a matter of education. We have quite a good project here in Britain. There's a Holocaust Educations Trust and they work very well and they take
quite a lot of children and one of them is being -- becoming ambassadors and spread the word.
But that's got to happen all over Europe. It's no good if it's just happening in Britain and we could be doing better in Britain as well, I'm
JONES: Do you think it matters how old the children are when they first learn about this as well?
Because, for example, there are some elements perhaps, that the gas chambers would perhaps too disturbing for a young child to understand. But
for me, at least, it's one of the most powerful things about Auschwitz- birkenau was seeing the glasses, the spectacles, the suitcases, the hair.
And that was -- that's just remained etched in my mind and perhaps very young children, the first school trips they go on abroad could be that.
DUBS: I think they could be fairly young and they will begin to understand. Because as you say, when I went to Auschwitz, the glasses and
the suitcases, I was looking for initials on the suitcases.
JONES: Yes, because they all had etchings all over them.
DUBS: And to see if there were any relatives there. Because I know they died in Auschwitz, were murdered in Auschwitz.
So yes, I think it's -- I think it's important. I think young people can be pretty young and I think it's important they go. But above all, nobody
should get through the education system without being made aware of it.
I'm afraid some do. And I know it happens in other countries and Britain but perhaps in some, they don't do as much as we do. And I hope they will
step up the process of making sure young people all over Europe are educated in this.
JONES: We hope so and especially with the series we're running this week, we hope that will indeed be the case. Lord Dubs, thank you so much for
coming on and sharing your experiences. We appreciate it very much.
DUBS: Thank you. And I'm glad you're doing it. Congratulations.
JONES: Thank you.
And thank you for watching tonight. Do stay with us here on CNN. Our special program, "A Shadow over Europe" with Clarissa Ward is coming up.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): This is CNN breaking news.
JONES: Hello, there. I'm Hannah Vaughan Jones, live in London. Back to our breaking news this hour.
Authorities in Alaska have told residents to take shelter after a magnitude 7.0 earthquake hit near the city of Anchorage. Right now, roads there are
damaged. Phone lines are down and all flights are grounded. The state's governor has issued a disaster declaration as they continue to assess the
Now, for the very latest on the aftershocks, let's go over to our meteorologist, Allison Chinchar, at the CNN Weather Center.
[14:30:00] Allison, a couple of hours on from when this quake first hit. What's the very latest?
ALLISON CHINCHAR, CNN METEOROLOGIST: We already have nine aftershocks, several of which of have been quite large. The largest one a 5.7 and
that's actually the closest one to the downtown area of Anchorage. The main concern there is any of the buildings that may have been structurally
compromised from the initial quake may continue to see damage because of the strong aftershocks.
Again, when we take a look at the overall, it was a magnitude 7.0, depth of 40.9 kilometers. The main concern here is how widespread this was,
actually felt. You have a lot of people that felt strong, very strong if not severe shaking from some of those areas and we saw that obviously
through some of the damage.
The main concern is going to continue to be that damage with some of these aftershocks and the initial quake. In fact, the U.S. Geological Survey has
indicated a yellow pager for estimated economic impacts because we talk about not only damage to buildings but we know of damage to roadways and
some of those areas there.
We know that there is one major road going into the Anchorage International Airport that is severely damaged. They had a sinkhole there. There is
also a ground stop at the Anchorage International Airport. So if you have any travel plans in and out of that airport, Hannah, you may want to check
with your carrier.
JONES: All right. Allison Chinchar at the weather center there with the very latest for us there on this earthquake that has hit Anchorage, Alaska.
Allison, thanks very much.
Indeed, just to remind our viewers, 7.0 in magnitude. A tsunami warning initially was issued. That has since been cleared. At least nine
aftershocks. Everyone in the area has been told to stay in place. Only call 911 in cases of absolute emergency. You can imagine the emergency
services all stretched to the limit at the moment. The telecommunications affected and infrastructure also affected. This is our breaking news
story. More on CNN.
CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It is the CNN poll that has made headlines all around the world. An examination of anti-
Semitism across Europe showing in stark detail how threats and prejudices against Jews are still very real, right in the heart of the continent where
the holocaust happened.
CNN polled more than 7,000 adults in seven countries. Let's take a look at some of the numbers. We found that many feel anti-Semitism is indeed on
the rise. Forty-four percent of Europeans say it's a growing problem. That includes 55 percent of Germans. We've also learned that anti-Semitic
stereotypes are still widespread. Twenty-eight percent of Europeans think Jewish people have too much influence over global finance and business.
And perhaps most shockingly our poll reveals that awareness of the holocaust is fading. More than a third of Europeans know just a little
about it or have never heard of it at all.
While the response to CNN's poll has been huge, newspaper front pages in Israel, a Wall Street Journal editorial, and even reaction from Israel's
Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu. In an exclusive interview with CNN he said, "Authorities everywhere must tackle anti-Semitism."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, PRIME MINISTER OF ISRAEL: I'm concerned. Because I think anti-Semitism is an ancient disease and when it rears its ugly head,
it attacks Jews but it never stops with that. And then sweeps entire societies as happened honestly in midcentury Europe, first in Germany and
then throughout all of Europe and the consequences were horrible.
Yes, I'm concerned. But I think we have to fight it. And we are fighting it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WARD: Germany's foreign minister has also reacted to our research. Heiko Maas tweeted, these are shocking numbers that CNN has revealed. We must
remember the greatest crime against humanity if we want to prevent fascism in the future.
Now, I want to introduce my two guests, joining me in the studio is David Baddiel, he's a Jewish comedian and author who has regularly commented on
anti-Semitism. And also with us is Rachel Shabi, she's a journalist and author of "Iraqi Jewish Heritage." Thank you both so much for joining us
to talk about this important issue. And we're going to take a look shortly at one of the stories that we did in Germany.
But I just wanted to start out by getting your thoughts, each of you, on this poll. David?
DAVID BADDIEL, JEWISH COMEDIAN AND AUTHOR: The basic thing that I -- anti- Semitism is still a big issue and lots of people still have lots of stereotypes and myths about Jews that they hold especially in Europe isn't
a huge surprise to me.
I think it remains shocking without being surprising in the sense that, you know, Erdogan the other day was talking about George Soros very virulently
and just referred to him as that Hungarian Jew Soros and there's been no statement on that from any other world leaders. Well, that's just past as
a sort of acceptable thing to say because there's this weird thing that anti-Semitism is a sort of an eternal current in the way that people think
and with it certainty comes a thing that it gets revitalized along the way by things that happen.
[14:35:25] At the moment, those main things I would say are technological. So I think the rise of conspiracy theory which is to do with social media
and the way that -- and also to do with populism means that the Jew, which always somehow appears as the mythic figure within the (INAUDIBLE)
conspiracy theory becomes a hate figure again.
WARD: And there is a sense maybe that they're more acceptable suddenly to give air to these views in mainstream than perhaps there was before.
Rachel, what were your thoughts?
RACHEL SHABI, BRITISH JOURNALIST: Yes, I'm very much in agreement and that it's not surprising but it is shocking to see and certainly shocking to
such an expansive polling, you know, from the CNN going right across European countries. So it's a comprehensive survey so it has force because
Your report talks a lot about the idea that people don't really understand or have much idea of what the holocaust was and, you know, what it was that
led to the holocaust. So it's a combination of decent citation and the lack of understanding of anti-Semitism combined with being given permission
in recent years. This ultimate global conspiracy theory, this really malicious conspiracy theory about George Soros --
WARD: And we saw that within Europe as well, by the way.
WARD: By the way, from the Hungarian president himself, Viktor Orban, during the campaign trail. It was all about George Soros.
SHABI: Global leaders including President Trump in the U.S. will quite happily invoke a really malicious anti-Semitic conspiracy theory that was
previously just in the realm of the fringe far-right. Now it's mainstream.
WARD: I'm going to stop you right there just because I think that's going to takes us nicely into the story that we did in Germany and you'll hear
from the anti-Semitism czar, Felix Klein. This is, of course Germany, less than 75 years after the holocaust, there are now signs that the lessons of
the past are fading away. Take a look at our story and then we'll come back and discuss more.
CLARISSA WARD, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's a sight you don't expect to see in Germany in 2018. Hundreds of right-wing
extremists, many neo-Nazis marching through the nation's capital.
"Close the border," they shout. "Resistance, resistance."
The far-right is enjoying a major come back here, bringing with it a troubling rise in anti-Semitism.
According to government figures, anti-Semitic attacks have increased by 20 percent in the last five years. The number of violent right-wing
extremists has gone up by nearly a third. This man tells us a shadowy cabal of globalist controls the world.
So, when you talk about elites and you talk about finance, is that another way of saying Jewish people?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
WARD: It is.
"Let me say it this way. The banking system, for sure. Banks, finance, the economy, mainly Jews," he says. We had more questions but our
conversation was cut short by one of the march's organizers.
I think we have someone who's following.
Making anti-Semitic statements can be punishable under German law. But Christian Weissberger explains that neo-Nazis are finding new ways to
express the same old hatred. And he should know, Weissberger used to be a right-wing extremist himself.
CHRISTIAN WEISSBERGER, FORMER NEO-NAZI: I would say that it is a form of anti-Semitism that disguised itself, so they don't talk about the Jew
anymore, they talk about the Zionist, or the globalist or the bankers.
WARD: And they are growing more brazen. One man flashes a quick but unmistakable Nazi salute right in front of us, a crime in Germany.
It's important to remember this isn't any country, this is Germany.
Just a few hundred yards from the march is a memorial for the millions of Jews murdered here in the Second World War.
WARD (on-camera): More than 70 years after the Holocaust, Germany is still haunted by its past and yet remarkably anti-Semitism is once again a
growing problem here with 50 percent of Germans agreeing that Jewish people are now at risk of racist violence.
WARD (voice-over): The statistic comes from a CNN poll that also found half of Germans believe Jews are at risk of hate speech.
At Feinberg's Israeli restaurant, owner Yorai says he gets threats every day.
[14:40:06] YORAI FEINBERG, RESTAURANT OWNER: From murder to, I will break your knees, I will break your arms, I will break your teeth, they're very
creative in everything. All the options that they want to break.
WARD: He was recently accosted by a man who told him Jews will end up in the gas chamber.
"It's only about the money for you, you will pay," the man says to him. "Nobody wants you here."
He told you to go to the gas chambers or that you will go back to the gas chambers?
WARD: You've heard things like that before?
FEINBERG: I heard it very often.
WARD: Germany acknowledged it has a problem, recently appointing its first anti-Semitism czar. Felix Klein is focused on creating a nationwide system
for reporting anti-Semitic crimes and on improving integration of Germany's different communities.
FELIZ KLEIN, ANTI-SEMITISM COMMISSIONER, GERMANY: Anti-Semitism has always existed in Germany, also after 1945. And now though, it is showing its
ugly face more openly. Things that people would never have dared to say in a bar or in a restaurant and a private surrounding do it, so now using
social media or the net.
WARD: Germany has seen upticks in neo-Nazi activity before. Most notably in the 1990s. While official statistics show that more than 90 percent of
anti-Semitic attacks nationwide are from the far-right, there's a new element of concern for the Jewish community. The arrival of 1.4 million
Muslim refugees in the last three years.
Doron Rubin is the leader of Germany's small Orthodox Jewish community.
DORON RUBIN, HEAD OF KAHAL ADASS JISROEL CONGREGATION: There's a lot of coming, the incoming of a lot of immigrants, different history and
different background and especially obviously coming from the Middle East have also because of Israel, a different attitude towards Jews.
KLEIN: When we talk about Muslim originated anti-Semitism, I think we can only win that battle with the help of the moderate Muslims, without them,
this wouldn't be a successful fight.
WARD: Overall, the Jewish community remains anxious.
RUBIN: I think much more Jews now think again like, can we call Germany our home? And is it possible to live in this society? You can know that
that's question that might not have been asked five years ago are starting to pop up again.
WARD: It's a question few in this country ever imagined would have to be asked again.
WARD: David, Rachel, I mean, you've seen the report. How is it that once again Jewish people in Germany are asking themselves this question? Are
reconsidering whether they can stay and live?
BADDIEL: Well, a key thing from that report which I have actually talked about quite a lot and I thought anti-Semitism is -- anti-Semitism is a two-
pronged racism. Slightly unique in that form. In that all minorities get a type of very low status racism thrown at them about being dirty and
thieving and vermin, all that stuff and Jews get that.
But Jews has this very particular thing that most other racist don't get which is that they're also very high status, i.e., secretly in control,
secretly in power, pulling the strings behind global capitalism or whatever it might be. Both of those things are mythic.
But the second one creates an issue whereby you can get both far-right and far-left people deciding to hate the Jews, because there's a sense in which
in attacking the Jews, you are also attacking global capitalism and that creates a particular problem for the Jews. And particularly I think with
this normalization of anti-Semitic discourse, because we would look, I think to the left in particular, to say this is unacceptable.
WARD: And this was one of the most sort of edifying things for me on the series is the idea of anti-Semitism on the left.
I mean, Rachel, where does that come from?
SHABI: Yes. I think it's a really unfortunate time for it to happen because as David said exactly at the moment when you see a resurgent far-
right using anti-Semitic tropes. And by the way, I think the far-right, you know, will attack Muslims migrants and Jewish people interchangeably.
SHABI: It's just more expedient for them at the moment to attack Muslims and migrants.
BADDIEL: (INAUDIBLE) Rachel, I don't wish to interrupt you which I think is really important, which is not not only will they do that, they will
assume that Jews are in league or Jews controlling the flood of migrants into Europe in order to subvert the white racism --
SHABI: Yes. I think that it's important to understand that anti-Semitism and Islamophobia for the far-right work interchangeably.
WARD: Hand and gloves.
SHABI: We have to police against both or guard against both.
WARD: But this is an interesting thing, as well, though, because there is a reluctance also to talk about anti-Semitism in certain pockets of the
Muslim community, even though it does exist and in Germany, the German government has spoken openly about this. It's a problem in schools. It's
an issue of integration.
[14:45:02] The Jewish community in France talk about it a lot as the new anti-Semitism.
BADDIEL: Yes. I think it's very complicated. I mean, Rachel might be less happy to talk about it. I think it's there, it's undeniably there.
And there's an undeniably case that within certain aspects of the Muslim community, it's a normalized discourse, as well.
But actually, that's not I think where the sort of -- that's not where it's coming from in a way. I think where the actual stoking of the fires of
anti-Semitism, which has to say is a very eternal thing, is this weird confluence I think of mainly the hard right and then supported by the hard
SHABI: That goes back to what I was trying to say earlier which is precisely at this time when there is an anti-Semitism that's a part of the
resurgent far-right who are also anti-Muslimism and anti-migrant, that's when Jewish people look to the left. And it's precisely at that time that
the left seems to be mired in its own blind spot around anti-Semitism. And some of it is to do with just not understanding that the differences
between criticism of Israel and anti-Semitism.
It seems to have been all jumbled up. But also there's this perception actually that Jewish people don't need protecting. They're not a
rationalized minority. They're fine.
WARD: I think you hit, as well, on another point that is such a thorny issue. And, David, I know you've talked about this before. The difference
between legitimate criticism of Israel and anti-Semitism.
BADDIEL: There is anti-Zionism which is a political position and there is anti-Semitism which draws on a whole load of ancient tropes. So I think
it's fine to say it's a political position the state of Israel shouldn't exist. You can say that as a political position.
The minute you say the state of Israel shouldn't exist and it's existent is only supported by a secret global lobby who are controlling the reins of
power, then you're being anti-Semitic. And those are two different things. And what you need to look out for in the ancient tropes mixed in with
criticism to Israel.
WARD: That's interesting. One of the other findings that was really striking to me and I think we have a graphic that illustrates it is the
idea that 18% percent of people surveyed said that they believe that anti- Semitism in their own countries is a result of the everyday behavior of Jewish people. This sort of --
WARD: That blew my mind.
BADDIEL: And that's simply mad.
WARD: It's mad. And also, I don't know what it means.
BADDIEL: Unless it's me. I mean, there may have been a few things that I did.
WARD: But what do you understand that to even mean, Rachel?
SHABI: But that's also a troupe because the Jewish people brought it upon themselves.
SHABI: That's feeding into the troupes of anti-Semitism that statement in itself as is, you know, what we saw or allotting the last few months around
the debate on anti-Semitism in the left was the idea that Jewish people are somehow constantly foregrounding this issue over other more worthy issue.
BADDIEL: People are hyperaware of causing offense to almost any other ethnic minority of sectionalized minorities --
WARD: OK. I'm going to have to -- we're going to have to take a break for one moment. But this is such a great conversation. We'll put you back
But ahead, CNN's exclusive polling on anti-Semitism shows that it is still a sobering reality across Europe.
And next, we journey to Auschwitz to take a look at the power of this place and the importance of remembering the past. That's still to come.
[14:50:38] WARD: This hour, we've bene taking a closer look at the findings of an exclusive CNN poll on anti-Semitism across Europe. One that
has been generating headlines and conversation around the world.
Among the shock figures a third of Europeans says they know little or nothing about the holocaust. We visited the Nazi death camp Auschwitz to
look at the importance and power of remembering.
EDITH EGER, HOLOCAUST SURVIVOR: It was him. It was him and yet, I'm here. I'm here hopefully to tell young people that I count on them.
WARD (voice-over): Edith Eger was just 16 years old when she arrived at Auschwitz from her native Hungary with her family in May 1944.
Nazi physician Josef Mengele was standing at the end of the train platform. Known as the angel of death, he performed cruel and often deadly medical
experiments on his prisoners.
EGER: He pointed my mom to go to the left and I followed her. He came after me, grabbed me. I never forget those eyes. He said, your mother is
just going to take a shower. You'll see her soon.
WARD: Edith never saw her again. Both her parents were killed in the gas chambers of Auschwitz, along with more than one million Jews. Hundreds of
thousands of others were worked or starved to death.
Edith did see Dr. Mengele again.
EGER: He came to the barracks and he wanted to be entertained so they volunteered me and I ended up dancing. And closing my eyes. And
pretending that the music was Tchaikovsky (ph) and I was dancing the Romeo and the Juliet in the Budapest Opera House.
WARD: It was that powerful spirit and imagination that helped Edith to survive the un-survivable. It would be eight months before soviet troops
would liberate the death camp, discovering horrors that remain etched on humanity's conscience 73 years later.
WARD (on camera): In many ways, it's the experiences and testimonies of those who survived that have kept the horrors of the holocaust alive. And
the fear now is that as fewer and fewer of them remain, the memory will start to fade.
WARD (voce-over): According to a CNN poll, it already is. More than a third of Europeans have either never heard of or know just a little about
the holocaust. The statistics for the younger generation are even more alarming, 20 percent of young French adults have never even heard of the
Michael Schudrich is the chief rabbi of Poland.
When you hear that younger people say they know very little or next to nothing about the holocaust, in Europe which is where the holocaust was
perpetrated, how does that make you feel as a Jew?
MICHAEL SCHUDRICH, CHIEF RABBI OF POLAND: How does it make me feel? It makes me feel I have more work to do. It makes me feel that I need to --
that we need to be more proactive. It makes me feel that we need to work far more intensively with ministers or education.
WARD: The stakes are high as Europe grapples with a resurgence of anti- Semitism but there are signs of hope. More than 40 percent of the respondents believe anti-Semitism is a growing problem in Europe. Half
agree the commemorating the holocaust helps to combat anti-Semitism. And nearly two thirds say it can help ensure such atrocities never happen
Today, the ghosts of Auschwitz still linger. Serving as a vital reminder to the more than two million tourists who visit every year.
SCHUDRICH: Visiting Auschwitz fundamentally transcends the intellectual. It confronts you face to face every year. You're not looking at a book,
you're not looking at a film. You're looking at a place that was built to kill human beings. You're looking at a place that's a factory of death.
Four huge gas chambers with crematorium built for the only purpose to eliminate Jews from Europe.
[14:55:33] When you stand there, don't try to understand it. Just have your eyes open, your heart open, absorb the moment. Somehow if you go
there and you stand there and you experience it, maybe that will help every human being that visits to be one step, 20 steps away, from every doing
something like that again.
WARD: Well, let me get back to my two guests now. David Baddiel and Rachel Shabi. Obviously, it's a tough piece to watch in many ways and I
just wanted to say that Edith Eger, who we interviewed there, this incredible woman has since surviving the un-survivable, gone on to become a
psychologist. She deals with victims of trauma. She's written many books and she's an inspiration to so many people.
But, Rachel, just watching that and thinking of this problem going forward and kind of remembering what it really is all about, what are your sort of
thoughts on -- how Europe deals with this issue going forward?
SHABI: Well, I think it's just vital to remember that these things have to be reiterated constantly. It's not that we reach a plateau of
understanding and awareness and that we stay at that level. These things can be -- can and have as we've seen be eroded over time. Understanding
when a sensitivity can be eroded over time and especially we consider that the generation that we have of holocaust survivors who have been living
historical testimonies to what's happened. We're losing that generation.
WARD: Something else that the rabbi said there which is this isn't actually just about Jewish people because, you know, or you've heard
Benjamin Netanyahu, as well, saying it starts with the Jews but then it's - - this is about all sorts of different people whether they're Muslims, whether migrants, whether they're Roma who are vulnerable to being the
victim of this kind of dehumanization and demonization. David?
BADDIEL: Yes, that's obviously correct, I think. But I think what Rachel said is very important which is that the lessons of history are present in
the political moment. And there's something going on in the political moment in the moment which is a huge populism and anti-elitism.
And anti-elitism is all very well but it can be very easily translated into an idea that the globally elite are essentially racially defined and they
tend to be primarily racially defined as Jewish. Because for some reason that always has to be an enemy and populist often like to locate the enemy.
And so this notion that a certain amount of economic success means we don't really have to worry when racism in this kind of genocidal way starts to
build, that is incorrect and that's the lesson we need to remember if anything.
WARD: Such an important lesson. David Baddiel, Rachel Shabi, I can't thank you enough for joining me to talk about this truly important issue.
And I want to thank all of you, as well, for watching. Thank you so much and goodbye.