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Mueller to Reveal Details on Trump Associates in Russia Probe; Washington Post: Bush Family Wants to Steer Clear of Anti-Trump Sentiment. Aired 6-6:30a ET

Aired December 04, 2018 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY), MAJORITY LEADER: This hero has returned to the Capitol a final time.

[05:59:19] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What we see is a man whose service was not driven by political gain or power.

MIKE PENCE (R), VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: May God bless the memory of George Herbert Walker Bush.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It could be a momentous week. The court filings could be quite revealing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These two tweets together, it's part of a very disturbing pattern.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He talked about Roger Stone telling the truth. That isn't tantamount to obstruction of justice.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: This is potentially an abuse of power that could lead to impeachment.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY, with Alisyn Camerota and John Berman.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome to our viewers in the United States and all around the world. This is NEW DAY. It's Tuesday, December 4, 6 p.m. here in Washington.

Former President George H.W. Bush lies in state this morning at the U.S. Capitol. Look at that. These are live pictures.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: That's incredible, yes. What a view.

BERMAN: And it's 6 a.m. and surrounded by the honor guard. The casket lies in state for public viewing until tomorrow morning, and people have been coming in all night long. You can see them there right now.

The president and first lady, they paid their respects overnight. They stood inside the hall for over a minute. You can see President Trump saluting the casket there. We learned that he will pay a condolence visit to the Bush family today. They're staying in Blair House across Pennsylvania Avenue from the White House.

"The Washington Post" reports that the Bush family decided on a sort of undeclared truce with the president this week. They want the focus to be on the legacy of President Bush rather than overt anti-Trump sentiment, although someone close to the family is quoted in "The Post" article as saying the comparisons are presenting themselves.

President Trump will attend the state funeral tomorrow, but he will not speak. Former president George W. Bush, who has been quite emotional over the last day, he will eulogize his father. You can see Bush 43 right there, filled with emotion throughout the ceremonies yesterday.

CAMEROTA: And Laura Bush as well, too, her face said a lot, as well. Meanwhile, we could learn a lot more about Special Counsel Robert Mueller's Russia investigation.

Through a series of court filings this week that involved three of President Trump's closest associates. The first is today, when Mueller is expected to reveal details of the cooperation that he obtained from fired national security adviser Michael Flynn.

You'll remember that Flynn pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI about his conversations about those sanctions with Russia's ambassador. President Trump is venting his frustration on Twitter about all of this, about the Mueller probe. He's blasting Michael Cohen, saying that Cohen should go to prison. And he's at the same time praising Roger Stone, who at the moment is refusing to testify against the president.

Is all of this somehow tampering with witnesses?

Let's begin our coverage with CNN's Phil Mattingly. He is live on Capitol Hill -- Phil.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Alisyn.

I was just talking to Capitol Police on my way in this morning, and they said throughout the night, there has been a small but steady stream of those who came to pay their respects to former President George H.W. Bush, a president that not just mitrepresented the presidency but also a lifetime of service. Somebody that Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell has called one of the most especially remarkable sons of the greatest generation, a generation that would no longer be represented in the White House.

Now, this morning as people still come in to pay their respects, it follows a day where almost some sense of bipartisanship broke out in the Capitol Rotunda, the Bush family sitting on and watching as McConnell, Speaker Paul Ryan, Vice President Mike Pence all gave remarks honoring the former president and also the bipartisan leaders, Nancy Pelosi and Speaker Ryan on one side, Chuck Schumer, the Democratic leader and McConnell on the other, laying wreaths in front of the casket of George H.W. Bush. Kind of a brief detente, if you will, of everything we've seen in Washington. Now, you noted that today President Trump is expected to go to a

private visit at the Blair House, a private house across the street from the White House, where the Bush family is staying. And the festivities, if you will, the honoring of the president will continue throughout the day here in the Capitol. I'm told also to keep an eye out for Sully, the service dog of President Bush. There's a chance he could show up today. Other close aides also expected to show up.

And this is all leading up to the service in Washington tomorrow at the National Cathedral. Now, as you guys noted, President George W. Bush, the son of President George H.W. Bush, will eulogize the president. Also expected to speak at that ceremony, Senator -- former Senator Alan Simpson; former Canadian Prime Minister Brian Mulroney; and Jon Meacham, who did, essentially, the definitive biography of George H.W. Bush. That will all lead into the ceremony that will start in Texas on Thursday.

Also expected at that ceremony tomorrow, all living presidents, presidents Trump, Obama, Carter and Clinton, their wives with the exception of Rosalynn Carter, also foreign leaders, people like Prince Charles, Angela Merkel, the German chancellor, all coming to pay their respects in a week that I think everybody acknowledges is one that is both very special for the country and very noteworthy, paying respects to somebody who basically deserves that respect based on his career -- guys.

BERMAN: Phil Mattingly for us on the Hill.

The pageantry is important. It is a moment for this nation to reflect, and we will be talking about it all morning long. But there's also a lot of other news.

Any moment this morning, we're expecting to see the sentencing memo for former Trump national security adviser Michael Flynn. This is a big deal. It could reveal new details about Special Counsel Mueller's investigation into Russian collusion. And it's just the first big moment in what could be a big week of revelations in this investigation.

Joining us, David Gregory, Abby Phillip and our legal analyst, Laura Coates. Laura, I want to start with you here. This sentencing memo, this will be the case against Michael Flynn like we haven't seen it before.

LAURA COATES, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It's true. Remember, he pled guilty last December, and all that time, there's been delays of his sentencing. Mueller's team has kept saying, "We need him still. He's still on the hook." The question is why? Why has he been on the hook for over a year at this point in time? And you see people like Michael Cohen and Paul Manafort have a matter of months before they are then pleading guilty and asking for sentencing.

CAMEROTA: And what does that tell you?

COATES: It tells me that somehow, what Michael Flynn knows has been of such importance during the transition period and on the campaign trail -- remember, he was three weeks into the actual administration. So we don't have much about that. But whatever it is he knows has been so important. And I think strategically, the timing is important here.

Alisyn, John, think about this: When the president of the United States finally handed in his answers, all of a sudden, Mueller was galvanized. Manafort is called a liar. You've got Michael Flynn all of a sudden wikcoming out of the shadows after a year, whereas Rick Gates, that's still the lingering question. Of course, you have Michael Cohen. This is going to be a very critical and impactful sentencing memo.

CAMEROTA: David, you know, we've talked a lot. John always brings up these speaking indictments. This could be a talking sentencing memo, where we -- I mean, where we will know more than we had. You know, there's been very few windows into this, and today might be one of those.

GREGORY: Right. Windows into the special prosecutor's thinking, his particular focus, where he might be focused on where there's coordination with the Russians, also with the president himself.

I think this question of what the president knew about the meeting at Trump Tower on opposition research; what business, financial dealings he may have had with Moscow that would have played into this question of whether there was actual collusion; what the relationship was with WikiLeaks.

And it's important to remember about Michael Flynn, this is somebody who had his own financial relationship with the Russians, was expecting speaking fees, was seated at a big RT television dinner with Vladimir Putin. And we know about, you know, his lying about being, you know, a foreign representative -- representative of foreign governments like Turkey.

So, yes, I think this provides some insight into the ultimate direction and gives us some clue, perhaps, about what he knew about some of these critical questions, which at least gives us -- you know, it illuminates at least part of this -- of this canvas that Mueller is working on.

BERMAN: You know, if we have speaking indictments and --

CAMEROTA: Talking sentencing.

BERMAN: -- talking sentencing, we have, like, a singing telegram president on what's going on in his head during this whole thing. And it's on Twitter for all of us to see, and it has legal implications here.

He was tweeting yesterday about Roger Stone and Michael Cohen, and there are questions this morning about witness tampering. Led me read to you what he said about Roger Stone. He's quoting here: "'I will never testify against Trump'." Because that's something Roger Stone said. "This statement was recently made by Roger Stone, essentially stating that he will not be forced by a rogue and out of control prosecutor to make up lies and stories about President Trump. Nice to know that some people still have 'guts'!"

Phil Mudd, this gets to you. As someone who spent a lot of time asking people questions, looking for information from witnesses, the president of the United States is saying what to you?

PHIL MUDD, CNN COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: Let's be clear here. This is the -- not just the president of the United States. This is the head of the federal government, the head of the execute I have it, the Department of Justice and the FBI are part of the executive.

When you're dealing with an investigative case. think of take it outside of this context and think of the things that I witnessed when I was at the FBI, for example, major organized crime cases, major drug cases. Consistently in those cases, you would see people tell their friends, "Don't testify. Don't do the ethical thing. If you've -- if you've seen something that's illegal or unethical, don't speak to the feds."

We now have the president of the United States, again, the head of the executive, telling people in the United States, messaging them that when the executive branch, via the Department of Justice and the FBI, comes to speak with you, if you know something unethical or illegal, the right thing to do, shut up. It's hard to imagine how do you build a case when you have people who are advised by the president of the United States, don't speak. It makes it a lot tougher, John.

CAMEROTA: And so Abby, the person who has taken a different tact, and it is fascinating to watch this, is Michael Cohen. Michael Cohen, who once said that he would take a bullet for President Trump, who was so dedicated and dutiful to the president, has decided to take a different tact and to confess and to -- I mean, from what we can tell, to sort of open up to everything that he has done.

And "The New York Times" has an interesting article this morning on why Michael Cohen had done this. "Mr. Cohen," it says, "has concluded that his life has been utterly destroyed by his relationship with Mr. Trump and his own actions, and to begin anew he needed to speed up the legal process by quickly confessing his crimes and serving any sentence he receives, according to his friends and associates, and analysis of documents in the case. He has told friends he is mystified that he is taking the fall for actions that he carried out on behalf of Mr. Trump, who remains unscathed. Still, he's resigned to accepting responsibility."

It is so frankly Shakespearian to me.

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes. A drama.

CAMEROTA: It is. I mean, but it's as if he never watched "The Sopranos." It doesn't end well sometimes for people around --

[06:10:01] PHILLIP: It's almost as if he didn't work for President Trump, who has been this way for, basically, his entire life. It is -- it has always been clear that loyalty is a one-way street

with Trump. That he expects blind loyalty from the people who work for him, but he often does not reciprocate that.

And Michael Cohen found out the hard way that President Trump was not going to come and save him, even though President Trump happens to also be the only person in this country who could save him from some of this. He's the only person who could potentially pardon Michael Cohen; and Michael Cohen realized that he couldn't rely on that.

And President Trump is showing us, in his tweets, that he really doesn't have any regard for this person who worked for him for so long. He's characterized him as weak, he said he deserves a very long prison sentence, the longest possible sentence. He said not only Michael Cohen but his wife and father-in-law ought to get that same sentence.

And President Trump is showing us in his tweets that he really doesn't have any regard for this person, who worked for him for so long. He's characterized him as weak. He's said he deserves a very long prison sentence, the longest possible sentence, he said. Not only Michael Cohen but his wife and father-in-law ought to get that same sentence of President Trump is beyond throwing him under the bus here.

And Cohen is in a difficult spot, because he has done exactly what Trump expects of everyone who works for him. He has lied for the president. He has done things quietly to protect him behind the scenes. And he tried to take the fall for him, but now it has become a lot -- and it's not just Cohen, it's also his family. I think for a lot of people involved in this case, that has become untenable for them. It's not just --

DAVID GREGORY, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Right. Throwing himself on the mercy of the court is the more traditional way to do it, whereas others -- if they're positioning themselves as the loyal, defiant members of the Trump clan, that's still a risky strategy that Trump is going to come rescue you with a pardon. But here, Michael Cohen is obviously hoping if he's -- cooperates and admits to these things, he can serve a more reduced sentence and then move on with his life.

BERMAN: Laura Coates, before we let go of these tweets from the president, because we heard Jeffrey Toobin's voice in the open, saying that this is a potential -- potential impeachable offense before others call it witness tampering.

Legally speaking, where do these statements on Twitter from the president of the United States land?

COATES: It all falls under the words "expectation" versus "direction."

First of all, did Michael Cohen expect something, and there was some direction that implied it? Or did he actually have a directive, either someone say to him that he is -- if he lies, you will get "X," that's No. 1. That's still to be determined. But in terms of the actual president's tweets, he did inoculate

himself a little bit in those tweets by saying this time around, "Listen, he -- I don't want, essentially, somebody to lie to the federal government."

GREGORY: Right.

COATES: "What I'm doing is actually trying to honor my role as the head of the executive branch and say, 'I don't want a rogue prosecutor to try to encourage somebody to commit falsehoods or say lies.'"

But that is part of a pattern. And the pattern for Donald Trump has been, up until now, to encourage a sort of behavior, to deny the investigators the full opportunity for comprehensive testimony.

And so, in isolation this tweet, it does lean towards influencing a witness unnecessarily and unlawfully, but it's the overall pattern that is much more concerning for the president of the United States, as opposed to this one.

GREGORY: In a political report to Congress if you fire Jim Comey, the FBI director, because you don't like how he's handling the investigation and you go down the line, that pattern could be something that -- part of a case they make politically to Congress.

COATES: Absolutely.

CAMEROTA: And that leads us to George Conway.

BERMAN: All roads.

CAMEROTA: All roads lead to George Conway.

BERMAN: -- to George Conway.

CAMEROTA: Phil Mudd, Kellyanne Conway has tried to suggest, in a very contentious interview that she did with our Dana Bash, that it's -- it's off-limits, that you should never be able to bring up her husband, that somehow, their marriage is off-limits.

George Conway keeps inserting himself into all of this. It's impossible not to bring him up.

So after the president tweeted about that, you know, how he thought that it took guts to go -- to not talk to Mueller, George Conway treated this cryptic tweet, which is just the kind of statute, right?

GRAPHIC: George Conway tweet reading, "File under 18 U.S.C. $$ 1503, 1512."

BERMAN: It's the witness tampering law.

CAMEROTA: OK, so here's what it really is: "Protection of Government Processes, Tampering with Victims, Witnesses or Informants." So he is suggesting that the president is witness tampering. And then Eric Trump, the president's son, went after George Conway and

said this: "Of all the ugliness in politics, the utter disrespect that George Conway shows towards his wife, her career, place of work and everything she has fought so hard to achieve, might top them all. Kellyanne Conway is a great person and, frankly, his actions are horrible."

What's happening here, Phil?

MUDD: Well, this is "Real Housewives of Pennsylvania Avenue." That is what's happening here.

Look, let me give you a couple of perspectives on this. If we think that the president of the United States is going to be charged with witness tampering after the investigation starts with the big story of was the United States in collusion with the Russians, I don't buy that for a heartbeat. I don't know if he violated the letter of the law. I don't believe that the special counsel is going to go after him on that.

As far as the marriage of Conway and Kellyanne Conway, I think I'll stay out of what they talk about over breakfast on Saturday, because I cannot understand, whether or not you think he has a right to speak, how you live in that marriage, and he walks in and says, "I'm going to hammer your boss again tonight in public." I don't get that one. That's just me.

[06:15:07] GREGORY: How about the fact that they invited --

BERMAN: Abby -- Abby, on this, though, but Kellyanne is pretty clear. She gets really deeply offended when anyone brings this up in any setting, yet her boss's son just brought it up in a very public way.

PHILLIP: And the president has brought it up.

BERMAN: Right.

PHILLIP: He called George Conway "Mr. Kellyanne Conway," which is a dig, by the way, at --

BERMAN: In Trump world it is.

PHILLIP: Yes. And I think, look, everybody around Kellyanne obviously understands this dynamic, but I would also say they sat for a lengthy "Washington Post" article on the subject --

GREGORY: Over breakfast. They brought them to their breakfast.

PHILLIP: So it is the subject of news by their --

CAMEROTA: And what did they reveal in that article about why they do that --?

(CROSSTALK)

PHILLIP: I mean, I think they reveal that the divisions that you see on Twitter are very real. That they do not agree on this issue.

And I think, you know, it wouldn't be the first Washington marriage, but I think what's interesting about this is that George Conway is someone who's actively, on the legal side, trying to undermine President Trump, implying that he is on the path to impeachment or some kind of legal peril. That's a totally different thing from a little disagreement.

BERMAN: And I just think Eric's role in it now is fascinating to me, as well.

CAMEROTA: It's all fascinating.

OK. Panel, thank you very much.

BERMAN: All right. We've been watching all morning as Americans honor President George H.W. Bush. There he is. This is live pictures from inside the Capitol Rotunda.

We're learning more about this sort of undeclared truce that the Bush family has headed into this week with. That they first contacted the president over the summer and said, yes, he would be invited to this funeral. We'll discuss all of this, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:20:28] CAMEROTA: All right. We're about to show you some live pictures of the honor guard. Look at this dramatic live shot right here. This is the honor guard watching over the casket of former President George H.W. Bush, who is lying in state at the U.S. Capitol. I mean, it's just so poetic, you know, and beautifully -- I don't know -- silent and lit dramatically.

The president and the first lady paid their respects last night. The "Washington Post" reports on this truce between the Bush family and President Trump ahead of tomorrow's state funeral. So let's talk about it.

We want to bring in David Gregory and Abby Phillip; CNN political commentator Scott Jennings, he was special assistant to President George W. Bush; and former White House correspondent for ABC News, Ann Compton. Great to have all of you.

So Ann, about this truce, it sounds -- I mean, according to "The Washington Post," this past summer, knowing that Bush 41 was declining, the family reached out to the White House and said, like, "Let's cool it," basically and that President Trump will be invited to the funeral.

I am fascinated by that sort of back-room dealing. If you can sustain a truce for these past four months, why not forever, No. 1? And what do you make of that?

ANN COMPTON, FORMER WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT FOR ABC NEWS: I make less of a truce and more of a detente to get through an important moment and the kind of moment that George Herbert Walker Bush feels is so valuable.

And the -- I suppose for President Trump, the worst thing would be to be completely ignored. He will be in the front row, but he won't have a starring role or, really, even a political role. So much of this funeral, it was, you know, designed by committee and military help for the last several years, before President Trump took office.

BERMAN: You know, some of it's practical also, because the Bush family wanted the plane that is Air Force One normally to be available; wanted the government resources; and I think may have been nervous, according to "The Washington Post," that the current President Trump would be so vindictive that he wouldn't provide it, unless there was this truce.

But also -- and, Scott, you can weigh in on this -- this seems to me to be the quintessential George H.W. Bush approach to this. You know, ease President Trump's concerns that he'll be excluded in this so that he knows this is about something bigger than a spat; this is about the country.

SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, and it reflects his life. You know, everything he did was bigger than himself. Everything he did was in service to his country. He was the opposite of tribalism.

You know, in his inaugural address, he reached out to the Democrats who controlled Congress and said, "I want to talk to my friends in the loyal opposition." He knew the value of bridging divides.

And there has been a divide between the Bush people and the new Trump people. And so as a Republican, but as an American who participates in politics, I like it when you see these big moments being used to bring people together and you hope it lasts. You hope it lasts, because certainly during the campaign, President Trump did not have great things to say about George W. Bush and the Bush family legacy.

But clearly, they've all lived these lives of service. And they've given so much to the country. And President Trump, I think, coming and being part of this, it's a good moment of reconciliation for the old Republicans and the new.

CAMEROTA: If history is any indication, it will not last.

BERMAN: Yes. I'm going to take the under on that.

CAMEROTA: It brings me no pleasure to say that, but again, the idea, you know, that they are respecting this truce is somehow, I guess, heartening.

GREGORY: Well, I think they didn't want the distraction as everyone has said. I think that's the biggest point. They didn't want anything to interfere, these kind of different story lines to interfere with honoring this family and honoring President Bush. And I think that's entirely appropriate.

It's just -- it's really who the -- it's who the Bush family is, you know, that they're not going to make -- they're not going to make that kind of statement.

I don't think we're going to see, you know, a moment like Eisenhower and Truman, who had reconciled at the funeral of President Kennedy after his assassination, but I do think it's the appropriateness of honoring the office, honoring the presidency.

I always felt, covering George W. Bush, that he wore the office so well; and that was obviously true of his father and part of the legacy of this family's commitment to service.

So I think this is entirely the right thing and, you know what? Even if we have a president who is more personally vindictive, it's really appropriate to see public figures doing the right thing in public, saying the right things in public. Do you know why? It feels good for the whole country, no matter where their heart is on it.

BERMAN: Right.

PHILLIP: I think it does, though, John, tell you a lot about President Trump, how this all played out. That he often, in almost every case, needs the other party to reach out to him, to extend the olive branch. And he is likely to accept if the other person extends the olive branch.

[06:25:11] And that is different. It's -- it is who he has always been, not just in this setting, but you see it on the world stage with all of his various feuds that he has with world leaders that come and go. But he always needs the other party to give him something in order for him to come to the table and do -- and do the thing that is expected of the office.

But as David said, I think this is important, because the Bush family understands as a family of service that goes back many generations, they understand that the institution and these images that we see are not just feel-good; they are about the character of this country.

GREGORY: They are.

PHILLIP: And the very foundation of this country --

BERMAN: And it was --

PHILLIP: -- passing the torch. And President Trump doesn't understand that in the same way, because he's so new to all of this.

BERMAN: It was good to see President Trump there overnight. It will be good to see him go to Blair House today to visit the family.

Another one of the images that yesterday I found so searing was watching George W. Bush, the 43rd president of the United States, throughout the day. He's someone that a number of us here covered extensively. You know, and we spent a lot of time trying to psychoanalyze President Trump. There were countless hours, days, trying to analyze the relationship between George W. Bush and George H.W. Bush; and I spent a long time doing it myself. I have come to the conclusion that the one word to describe the

feeling that George W. Bush feels for his father is love. And you see the love bursting from him yesterday, from the minute he walked off the plane to these moments at the Capitol, Ann Compton. You just see how dearly the son loved the father.

COMPTON: And idolized him. And to me, watching the actual Capitol ceremony yesterday after, what, 48 hours of the warmth and grace that were tributes coming out, George Bush sat there and is now facing his father's casket; and the pain etched on his face was palpable. And you could even see Laura turning around every once in a while, the first lady, almost concerned. That expression on his face, as you know, is not one of pleasure but of extreme pain.

BERMAN: He was holding it together. I mean, you could see -- and I've seen this before with him -- he was working so hard to hold it together.

CAMEROTA: I mean, of course, Scott, it's complicated, as are so many father/son relationships and particularly this one, that played out publicly and that many thought that George W. Bush was trying to somehow fulfill or right his father's wrongs in office. And so what, from where you sit, do you think Bush 41's legacy really is?

JENNINGS: Well, I think his legacy is one of, in our politics, it's possible for us to have vigorous push and pull in our democracy but still view each other as good Americans.

And I think part of what his message was, was that we can really go after each other -- and they did. The '88 campaign was a very hard- fought campaign. The '92 campaign was a hard-fought campaign. But when it's over, we accept these Democratic outcomes. And we can believe each other to be good Americans, even though we disagree on virtually everything. And certainly, people had vigorous disagreements with his policies during his one term. People had disagreements with Bush 43's policies.

But the idea that we can still look at each other as all being patriotic, all wanting the same thing, all rowing the boat in the same direction, despite those disagreements, to me, is the greatest legacy that Bush 41 and the whole Bush family is going to leave this country. So I think that message permeating this week, to me is one of the greatest things we can have in a country that feels very fractured right now in our politics.

BERMAN: You know, I think that's a great way of looking at it. Because it doesn't mean you have to say that he was perfect because no president is perfect.

JENNINGS: Right.

BERMAN: You can say that he tried, and he was trying to do good, and still acknowledge, for instance, that 1988 was, you know, a racial- based campaign or a campaign that was as negative as they come in some cases. That, for instance, you know, Saddam Hussein, David, he left Saddam Hussein in power. He's been criticized for that. I mean, there were parts of his administration that were open to debate and still are, but that doesn't mean you don't go back and say this was a man who tried.

GREGORY: Well, there's no question. And -- and we tend to interpret the father based on the presidency of the son, because you look at these contrasts and say, "Well, this was the son, in a public way as president, trying to redeem parts of his father's administration." The decision over pursuing Saddam Hussein is one that calls out.

But I agree with Scott. I think that, you know, that the elder President Bush was someone who felt very strongly about being a steward of the country. He didn't give himself the credit of being a visionary but a good steward at a very dangerous time. Somebody who was a pragmatic guy, who didn't always enjoy the price of politics but was willing to pay it and was willing to play at it hard to get ahead, because he was a competitive guy; but who always thought about moving the country forward.

And I look at that emotion that we see in 43 in President Bush, and I remember that image --