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Bush 41 Lies in State at Capitol; Bush Family, Trump Declare Truce for Funeral; Soon: Mueller to File Sentencing Memo on Michael Flynn. Aired 7-7:30a ET

Aired December 04, 2018 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: -- the honor guard that you're watching live pictures of right now as they change shifts, which happens every few hours there. It's been going on all night.

[07:00:09] ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Look at this vantage point. I mean, it's so dramatic. It's so poignant to just watch kind of the silence and slow movements happening there in the Rotunda. The public viewing will continue until tomorrow morning.

The current president and first lady paid their respects last night. President Trump saluting the casket. Today he will visit the Bush family at Blair House where they are staying.

So all of this ceremony as "The Washington Post" reports the Bush family initiated a truce with President Trump this week. They wanted the focus to be on the legacy of President Bush rather than any anti- Trump sentiment. President Trump will attend the memorial service tomorrow, but he will not have a speaking role. Former President George W. Bush will eulogize his father, and he has been clearly emotional throughout these ceremonies yesterday.

BERMAN: He really has been. From the moment he walked off the plane yesterday, you could see him trying to hold back the emotions, such a devoted son.

While this is going on, there's other news in Washington, potentially big news in the Mueller investigation. The first big reveal for that probe.

The special counsel released the sentencing memo from former national security adviser Michael Flynn. Flynn, you will remember, pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI about his sanctions conversation with Russia's ambassador, but that was a year ago. What cooperation has he provided to the investigation since then?

This could be just the first revelation in a series of legal proceedings over the next few days, and it all seems to be getting to the president.

In a string of potentially legally dubious statements, the president said that Michael Cohen should go to prison. He said that Roger Stone has guts for refusing to testify against him. And this has legal analysts asking if the president is tampering with witnesses. We'll have more on that in just a moment, though.

Let's go first to CNN's Phil Mattingly, live on Capitol Hill where the viewing of President Bush continues this morning -- Phil.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi, good morning, John.

Poignant, emotional, bipartisan. Those are the three words used by a senator who spoke to me who attended the memorial service yesterday. A recognition of a man whose life was defined by government service but also how, when you talked to people who knew him, he treated other people at that memorial service, a generation of top Washington officials, cabinet officials, military officials, senators, House makers -- House lawmakers, all there to pay their respects. Including later in the night the president and the first lady coming into the Rotunda, stopping silently for two minutes, the president delivering a crisp salute before he walked out.

I mentioned the bipartisanship. You also had Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi and Speaker Paul Ryan come and lay a wreath representing the House. On the Senate side, Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, Democratic Leader Chuck Schumer doing the same, kind of a brief detente in what has been a rather rancorous series of partisanship over the course of the last couple years.

Now, as things continue throughout the day, as you guys noted, the public viewing remained open all night. I talked to Capitol Police. They said there had been a series -- a steady stream of people coming in to pay their respects. That is expected to continue until 7 a.m. tomorrow.

You mentioned the memorial service. At that memorial service, President George H.W. Bush will deliver the eulogy. Also expected to speak, Senator -- former Senator Alan Simpson; Canadian Prime Minister Brian Mulroney; and Jon Meacham, somebody who had a very close relationship with President George H.W. Bush and wrote what is considered the definitive biography of his life.

You also mentioned, John, that President Trump will meet privately with the Bush family at Blair House across the street from the White House. You mentioned the relationship between the Bushes and the Trumps. That senator I spoke to earlier today said, plainly, this is not about him. This is about President George H.W. Bush. And that has been kind of the feeling and the emotion that has driven the course of this week, something that's expected to continue over the next couple of days.

And keep an eye on the Rotunda throughout the day today. The individual or entity that has garnered so much national attention, the service dog, Sully. I'm told there is a possibility he will show up to pay his respects, as well, guys.

BERMAN: All right. Phil Mattingly for us up on Capitol Hill. Phil, thank you very much.

We have a lot to discuss this morning between these services for the former president and the Mueller investigation.

Joining us now, CNN political analyst David Gregory; Anita McBride, she was the director of White House personnel under presidents Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush; our political director, David Chalian; and legal analyst Laura Coates.

Anita, I want to start with you.

ANITA MCBRIDE, FORMER DIRECTOR OF WHITE HOUSE PERSONNEL: Sure.

BERMAN: Because we talked about this detente between the Bush family and the Trumps, it was really the Bush family that initiated this deliberately over the summer. They knew that this time would come. And they got a message to the White House that President Trump will be invited to the funeral when it happens. Why do you think they decided to do that?

MCBRIDE: Of course, I don't think there was ever a question that that would be the case. I think that we have been talking about George H.W. Bush now for the last week and really understand this is a person who respected the institution of the presidency. No matter who the president was going to be, that person would be invited to his funeral.

And I think after Barbara Bush died and there was, you know, chatter sort of going on about whether Donald Trump would be invited to George Bush's funeral, because he wasn't at Barbara Bush's funeral, I think the family wanted to put that to rest right away.

CAMEROTA: David Gregory, let's talk about all of this backdrop, as this is a pivotal week for Robert Mueller's investigation, and certainly, the public and the media are going to see things that we haven't seen before.

So Michael Flynn, his sentencing memo is going to come out, so we are going to know for the first time what exactly he has, perhaps, proffered, what the crimes are, if he ever talked to President Trump about his meeting with Sergey Kislyak, all of that stuff. So give us the juxtaposition.

DAVID GREGORY, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, I think what's so significant about that is that Flynn has been, really, in the shadows for so long after making such a big splash on the campaign trail for his inappropriate conduct politically, at the convention and otherwise, and then only to find out that he was being charged with crimes including lying to the FBI.

But as Laura Coates was making the point earlier this morning, the fact that he's really been on the sidelines of this investigation and now coming forward may speak to how important he is to the investigation and whatever is in the sentencing memo may give us another indication of where the focus of Mueller really is. Where he's zeroing in on potential crimes that he will charge and fodder for an ultimate report to Congress, which is what's really going to be occupying us. If there's ever consideration of impeachment, we will be looking at what's in that report. BERMAN: Yes. One of the things that's so remarkable at the Mueller

investigation is we've heard so little. We only see it in these filings, these speaking indictments. We only see it in the plea deal from Michael Cohen or in the proposed plea deal with Jerome Corsi. And now this morning, we're going to see it laid out in terms of Michael Flynn; and we're going to know what's been going on for the past year. That's fascinating.

We see every day where the president is on this investigation, Laura, and where the president is right now is potentially legally dubious. He is weighing in on the cases involving Michael Cohen and the potential case involving Roger Stone with these tweets.

Let me read the Stone tweet here, because I think that is the most legally dubious. I'll put it up on the screen, if you will for me. It says, "'I will never testify against Trump.' This statement was recently made by Roger Stone. essentially stating that he will not be forced by a rogue and out of control prosecutor to make up lies and stories about President Trump. Nice to know that some people still have 'guts'!"

He's saying, "Nice to know that some people still have guts" about a guy who says he won't testify about the president. Is it witness tampering?

LAURA COATES, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Let's unpack it. First of all, it's odd that Roger Stone is being held out as an example. No one has asked for you to testify against Donald Trump, because no one wants to talk to you except your associates; which means to me that you're probably a defendant or a target in an investigation.

The fact that you're being held out as, "See? This is a great guy no one is talking to," Michael Cohen was not spoken to before he was actually charged with a crime. That's No. 1.

No. 2 about the president's statement, this is part of an ongoing pattern here, John, where the president is weighing in against his best interests.

Now, this particular tweet, for me, does not rise quite to the level as perhaps previous ones have, because this one inoculates him in a small sense. He is essentially saying that, one, he thinks the prosecutor is rogue and that he doesn't want anyone to lie to the federal government or try to concoct stories. And so in that respect, this tends to be, in an odd way, him saying, "Well, I want people to honor the law, and I'm going to say this."

But the final part is notion of guts. We have seen pardon dangling for quite some time now, and if this is in some way intended to insinuate or imply to Roger Stone or anyone else who may testify that "You're my guy and I'll take care of you," that's a huge problem for the president and, frankly, for the country and for every other defendant who goes before the DOJ and says, "Actually, do you know what? I'm not a snitch, either. The president says it's OK."

CAMEROTA: Everybody says they're not going to snitch until prosecutors knock on their door.

COHEN: Right.

CAMEROTA: Michael Cohen said he would take a bullet for the president, but things somehow change when you get into Robert Mueller's --

BERMAN: It's nice to know you're telling me this now in our relationship, that when the time comes, you will sing. It's over.

CAMEROTA: You are on your own. You are on your own.

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: President Trump bemoans this all the time, "this flipping process." He constantly is descrying the --

CAMEROTA: It's called realty.

CHALIAN: Exactly.

But the pardon dangling piece of this, I think, is key. Remember last week, the president, in addition to Roger Stone, was touting Paul Manafort and Jerome Corsi as -- all three of them he was holding up as prime examples of people doing the right thing, comparing and contrasting against the weakness of Michael Cohen. Well, what lesson are they supposed to take away from that, except that he is potentially holding out the notion of a pardon?

BERMAN: It's interesting to see, and particularly, when you hear about Michael Cohen's mindset, as reported this morning in "The New York Times." Let me read you something "The Times" reported this morning: "Mr. Cohen has concluded that his life has been utterly destroyed by his relationship with Mr. Trump and his own actions, and to begin anew, he needed to speed up the legal process by quickly confessing his crimes and serving any sentence he receives, according to his friends and associates, and analysis of documents in the case. He has told friends he is mystified that he is taking the fall for actions he carried out on behalf of Mr. Trump, who remains unscathed. Still, he is resigned to accepting responsibility."

[07:10:12] Anita McBride, you came in friendly, expecting to talk about George H.W. Bush this morning --

MCBRIDE: Now?

BERMAN: -- and not these scandals, but it is interesting when you talk about loyalty to someone like George H.W. Bush --

MCBRIDE: Yes, sure.

BERMAN: -- and then Michael Cohen --

MCBRIDE: Sure.

BERMAN: -- talking about loyalty as a one-way street with President Trump. MCBRIDE: Well, two things I was thinking about as you are having this

discussion is "My gosh, what would George H.W. Bush be saying about this?"

Now, looking down on this and saying, "This is not the way our country should be operating, and people need to just know they're telling the truth, not interfere with any process from a special counsel, an investigator, whatever it is; and let the chips fall where they may."

And then the other on Cohen, I'm thinking how lucky I was to work in the administrations that I did and never be faced with something like this. It's really, really sad.

GREGORY: But it is extraordinary. I mean, look, you know, you go back to Iran-Contra.

MCBRIDE: Yes.

GREGORY: Then President Bush was in the middle of a lot of controversy, as well --

MCBRIDE: He was.

GREGORY: -- issuing a pardon, as he did, to Cap Weinberger, who was the former secretary of defense, before he ultimately faced trial. So these are -- these can be really controversial issues.

The difference here is that you have a president of the United States, when there's an ongoing investigation, coming up to that line of suggesting, "Well, if you -- if you don't talk, you know, you've got guts and I'll stand with you." And here's Michael Cohen probably doing -- of course, doing the right thing, telling the truth.

MCBRIDE: Yes, sure. Telling the truth.

GREGORY: And throwing himself on the mercy of the court, rather than waiting for Donald Trump to act or not act on your behalf, which is all so unseemly.

But again, you have an effort by the president, in real time, to undermine an investigation in such an obvious way.

MCBRIDE: And I think that's the difference with President Bush and even President Reagan, too, you know, did not interfere, did not make public statements about this, the judicial process that was playing out.

COATES: And I have to -- I have to think the idea that the "on the behalf of" statement just keeps going in my mind. Because "acting on the behalf of," as opposed to "at the direction of" makes all the difference in the world.

And we've had the impression up to this point that the president is surrounded by yes-men. Well, is he surrounded by yes-men or people pleasers? Because I can prosecute yes-men who follow directions and the person who gave directions. A people pleaser, who thinks they want to do what will make the person happy, that's a little bit less of a -- more of a tenuous relationship for me to try to prosecute. And so what is it, Michael Cohen, people pleaser, yes-man?

CHALIAN: Well, for Michael Cohen in the campaign finance violations --

COATES: He was a yes-man.

CHALIAN: -- as it relates to Stormy Daniels and Karen McDougal, he clearly stated it was at the direction of President Trump.

BERMAN: But --

COATES: In the latest one --

BERMAN: -- in the second thing not so much. There's an interesting distinction there.

CAMEROTA: OK. The one -- there is one person who disagrees with Laura Coates's analysis that this is not yet witness tampering, or you can't be sure, and that is George Conway, Kellyanne Conway's husband.

David Gregory, I'm sorry we can't get past how striking it is that Kellyanne Conway's husband so publicly castigates the administration for which his wife serves. So Eric Trump, the president's son, has taken notice of this, whatever is going on in the Conway house, and has said this via Twitter: "Of all the ugliness in politics, the utter disrespect George Conway shows towards his wife, her career, place of work and everything she has fought so hard to achieve might top them all. This might top them all. Kellyanne is a great person and, frankly, his actions are horrible."

This is fascinating to watch play out.

MCBRIDE: Kellyanne wouldn't agree with that, I don't think.

BERMAN: What do you mean?

MCBRIDE: No, because she -- and she actually even said on CNN on an interview even several weeks ago is, you know, "Look, so I have a different opinion than my husband --"

CAMEROTA: Yes, but he publicly, Anita, he publicly goes after her place of work. Don't you find this eyebrow-raising?

MCBRIDE: I think, though, the comment by Eric Trump is the one that I'm taking issue with. I think that Kellyanne Conway said her husband has a mind of his own and --

CAMEROTA: Eric shouldn't have weighed in, you think?

MCBRIDE: That's right. He shouldn't have.

GREGORY: I do think it's -- I think it's striking. Look, as someone who has a spouse who is often in high-profile situations and politically-controversial situations, given her work as a lawyer, I mean, it's striking to me that you, you know, insert yourself into that.

And I think that, you know, Kellyanne Conway has also taken umbrage and questions about this in their marriage. They invited the "Washington Post" in to dissect their marriage and this very odd situation --

BERMAN: It didn't go well, though.

GREGORY: And it didn't go well. So you know, it's --

CHALIAN: Which is why she wanted to retroactively off the record --

GREGORY: But, I -- but look, I mean, people make up their own minds about it, and it will be a fight within the White House. But it's certainly striking to have a Republican lawyer who's been operating in those circles to come out so publicly, relentlessly on Twitter.

BERMAN: David, can we give you the last word on this? And I want you to talk about Eric Trump here. Where does he fit into this universe? We're used to Donald Trump Jr. weighing in. Is Junior not weighing in, because he could be connected to this investigation? Does Eric feel more free to?

CHALIAN: Well, I don't -- I don't know. I haven't noticed Donald Trump Jr. afraid to weigh in on things, even though he is potentially wrapped up in this investigation.

[07:15:22] But I think Eric Trump has been an ardent supporter and defender of his father's. He was, certainly was throughout the entire campaign, obviously has been a little more focused on the business.

I -- I think this is about trying to remove George Conway from Kellyanne Conway and not let him get away with just being a Trump critic, just because his wife has a close relationship with the president.

BERMAN: Fascinating to see, isn't it?

CAMEROTA: Yes. I find all of this dynamic very fascinating.

Thank you all for weighing in on it with us.

So the Bush family making efforts to avoid controversy this week by reaching out to President Trump ahead of President George H.W. Bush's passing. So what lessons were learned from Senator McCain's funeral or even that of Barbara Bush's? We explore.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:20:06] Here are these live pictures that we've been looking at all morning of the Rotunda. Just such an interesting vantage point. So dramatic. This is, of course, President George H.W. Bush lying in state in the U.S. Capitol Rotunda.

Americans paid tribute to our nation's 41st president this morning and well into the night last night. You can already see the onlookers there and the crowd in this very serene and somber moment.

President Trump and the first lady visited, as well. They paid their respects there, and they will attend the state funeral tomorrow with all the living presidents.

Joining us now is White House correspondent for "The New York Times" Maggie Haberman.

Maggie, great to have you here with us in Washington.

So let's talk about the optics of all of this. With President Trump, he'll be with all of his predecessors. That's always interesting, anytime you see all the presidents in one place, but particularly with President Trump, because he has such a different style; and the fact that he doesn't have a speaking role at this memorial service.

MAGGIE HABERMAN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I don't think he minds not having a speaking role, to be clear. I think that he knows that, were he to speak, No. 1, I think then you would expect other presidents to be speaking, as well, particularly Bill Clinton, who developed a very close relationship with 41 before he died and over the last several years. And how did that relationship develop? Over a common cause of working on humanitarian issues, of working for charitable causes, for people who are impoverished by storms. That is another stark contrast with this president.

So I don't think that President Trump minds not speaking. He is not going to be viewed favorably. He turns every speech that he is doing, wherever he is, into some form of a rally. I don't think anyone wanted him doing that, and I think that he understands that, too.

I do think that he knows that all eyes are going to be on him, and I think what you are seeing right now -- this may change by the time we get to Wednesday when there have been two more days of nonstop tributes to President H.W. Bush on television, which we know President Trump watches quite a bit of -- but until though, there has been something of an overcorrection for how they handled John McCain's death. And I think that is what you are seeing.

For all of his refusal to give in, for all of his public insisting that he didn't do anything wrong around John McCain's death, he knows very well that that was a very bad moment for his White House. His aides know that was a bad moment for his White House, and they are trying to do it differently right now.

BERMAN: It's interesting because his approval rating dipped during that period.

HABERMAN: Yes.

BERMAN: And I -- I remember everything you report, but I remember your reporting at the time --

CAMEROTA: Word-for-word.

HABERMAN: Thanks. BERMAN: -- that he was infuriated that week --

HABERMAN: Yes.

BERMAN: -- that he thought that the public and the press was overdoing --

HABERMAN: Yes, yes. Yes.

BERMAN: -- the adulation for McCain and affording him the kind of ceremony befitting only a president. I guess the difference here is it is a president.

HABERMAN: Correct. I also -- I am in -- by no means defending how President Trump treated John McCain --

BERMAN: Right.

HABERMAN: -- to be clear. But I do think that there was a reason to feel -- if you are people around him, they're going to view it as an attack on him. I think objectively, you know, people can say that President Trump is not a permission structure to declare that everybody else is perfect, and I think that that is what ended up happening that week.

It is different because this is a president. It is different because this is a president who was president and was vice president when Donald Trump was coming of age. I mean, if you think about how many of his cultural references are sort of preserved in the 1980s, H.W. Bush is right there with them.

And he recognizes his service. He recognizes had his heroism. And more importantly, he doesn't feel the personal animus about H.W. that he did toward Jeb Bush, for instance, and he is able to, for whatever reason, compartmentalize that right now. Again, whether it lasts we will see, but so far he has been doing it.

CAMEROTA: Always striking to look at the juxtaposition of moments like this and their serenity and their sort of pomp and circumstance, and then what's happening with the Mueller investigation, this week in particular because things are heating up.

So today the deadline for the Michael Flynn sentencing memo, and that means we will have, for the first time, a real window into what Michael Flynn did wrong and how Robert Mueller sees it.

HABERMAN: That's right. Look, we don't know how wide that window will open. It could get that we get sort of the barest of glimpses, right? But it is going to be, for someone like Flynn, who has really been sort of an off in the wings character throughout this opera of the last 18 months or 20 months, 22 months in his case, it's the first time we're going to get a look at what he has said to prosecutors. We might get a sense of why it is that the sentencing has been delayed as long as it has.

Then you are going to have the prosecutor's memo, I think, on sentencing Michael Cohen this week, as well. And then on Friday, we're going to find out, I think, to some extent, what Paul Manafort allegedly lied to investigators about.

So there is actually going to be -- one of the frustrating things about covering all of this for reporters, as both of you know, is it can be very hard to tell who is telling the truth, because so many people connected to this have a habit of not doing so, particularly hence you have all the lying charges that Mueller has brought.

Mueller has become somewhat of a bracing figure and aspect of this investigation. These charges have, in the public's mind, of trying to figure out what's true and what's not. And I think that's why this week is so important.

[07:25:04] BERMAN: That's right. We have to count on Mueller to be the one --

HABERMAN: That's right.

BERMAN: -- to provide us the evidence to show what is true.

HABERMAN: Correct.

BERMAN: We've had only very few glimpses of that.

HABERMAN: That's right.

BERMAN: And today, this morning -- in minutes, in hours, we don't know -- will be that big wide look at Michael Flynn.

I found so fascinating, in regards to Paul Manafort, the special counsel's spokesman, Peter Carr, said actually, there was a discussion about whether or not that filing would be public or private. He went out of his way to say parts of it, at least, will be public.

HABERMAN: Yes.

BERMAN: He wanted us to know that they were going to tell us some of what Paul Manafort was lying about. I found that significant. You know, every word they choose so carefully. I'm trying to figure out why they were telling us that.

HABERMAN: I think for the reason that we just said. I think that there is a reason to have Mueller adjudicate the facts of this case, because so many people are not telling the truth and because, as we have seen, there is a reason that President Trump is trying to say, "Who are you going to believe, you know? Me or Mueller's eyes?" essentially. He is doing everything he can to discredit Mueller as an independent arbiter here, and this is why. All of these factors together are why.

CAMEROTA: Your paper has a fascinating piece on Michael Cohen and what has happened to him and why he decided to confess. He's taken such a different tack than, thus far, other people who have claimed that they're never going to cooperate. Michael Cohen has cooperated. And here is the insight: "Mr. Cohen has concluded that his life has been utterly destroyed by his relationship with Mr. Trump and his own actions, and to begin anew he needed to speed up the legal process by quickly confessing his crimes and serving any sentence he receives, according to his friends and associates, and analysis of the documents in the case. He has told friends he's mystified that he is taking the fall for actions he carried out on behalf of Mr. Trump, who remains unscathed. Still, he is resigned to accepting responsibility."

It is -- I mean, I said it earlier, it's just so Shakespearian to me. This person who gave so many years of his life in duty to Donald Trump and that he is the first to take the fall so publicly.

HABERMAN: He is also the person who -- and I wrote about this earlier this year, and it infuriated the president -- the president had spent years being abusive to Michael Cohen. And I mean, his argument and, I think, his family's argument would be, well, Michael made mistakes or he didn't really trust Michael or he thought Michael had problems.

Michael Cohen was going out of his way to try to please Donald Trump at every turn and, at almost every turn as, actually, Roger Stone said to me for that story, Donald goes out of his way to treat him like garbage. And I think that you are seeing the problem with doing that.

Donald Trump's argument then becomes, "Well, and he's making up stories about me." There is no reason to believe that that is the, truth and Michael Cohen has done it under oath, which -- said his views under oath and his version of events under oath, which Donald Trump has not done.

BERMAN: And of course, the special counsel has told us, when he's released these documents, that he has backup.

HABERMAN: That's true.

BERMAN: He has evidence to back up some of the things that Michael Cohen has said or the things that they're letting Michael Cohen come public with.

HABERMAN: They're very aware that Michael Cohen said things that were not true, hence the lying to Congress charge. They are going to make sure that there are other pieces that bolster what he said.

And again, they are aware this is the lawyer to the president. There is a huge political sensitivity around that.

BERMAN: Maggie Haberman, great to have you here with us this morning. I get the sense that, as this week progresses, we're going to need to speak to you again.

HABERMAN: I'll be available.

BERMAN: Appreciate it.

All right. So how will history remember President George H.W. Bush? We're going to speak to one of his earliest campaign operatives from 1980, a man who ultimately went on to become a governor and secretary of homeland security. Tom Ridge joins us next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)