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President George H.W. Bush Lies In State At The U.S. Capitol; Trump Tweets Raise Questions About Witness Tampering; Special Counsel Mueller To Reveal Details On Trump Associates In Russia Probe; CNN Reality Check: Quora Says 100 Million Users Hit By Data Breach. Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired December 04, 2018 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:32:25] JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: All night, all morning long, people have been filing past President George H.W. Bush's casket as he lies in state at the Capitol.

You're looking at live pictures. Such a beautiful moment. Such a beautiful vision as we honor the nation's 41st president.

This will all continue tomorrow morning with the service at the National Cathedral.

Joining me now is former Pennsylvania governor and secretary of Homeland Security under George W. Bush, Tom Ridge. Governor Ridge was also the Erie County organizer for --

TOM RIDGE, FORMER SECRETARY, DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY, (R) FORMER GOVERNOR OF PENNSYLVANIA, FORMER CONGRESSMAN, PENNSYLVANIA: Here we go.

BERMAN: -- for then-candidate George H.W. Bush in 1980, which is the first campaign I remember. And people forget George H.W. Bush won the Pennsylvania primary. I submit it was because of you.

RIDGE: Well --

BERMAN: But why did you choose -- take me back to 1980. Why did you choose George H.W. Bush back then?

RIDGE: Well, you know, what's interesting is I took a look at the candidates and obviously, everybody admired Ronald Reagan for many reasons. But I took a look at the series of things he did for his country, from being the youngest naval aviator, to Congress, to CIA, to ambassador to China -- envoy to China -- and I said this is a -- this is a man that should be my president.

And so, I was grateful to have the opportunity to serve him back then. And one of the most remarkable things -- remarkable things about that effort is he became a friend -- we called him a friend and enjoyed his company on many occasions over decades.

BERMAN: So that's 1980 when you first met him. RIDGE: Yes.

BERMAN: Fast-forward to 1994. At that point, you'd already served in Congress when he was vice president.

RIDGE: Yes.

BERMAN: You got to know him better.

But in 1994, you ran for governor of Pennsylvania -- you won. You got a phone call.

RIDGE: Well, it's typical of President Bush -- called to congratulate. We had a wonderful conversation.

But he said at the time it was a bittersweet moment for him. He said he had two sons running for governor. One won in Texas, the other lost in Florida. And he said, you know, I know what it is to lose, so Bar and I are going to go down and see Jeb -- typical.

BERMAN: I find that so fascinating. He's on the phone with you congratulating you, and he has one son who just became governor Texas. But where most of his thoughts were, were in Florida with the son who lost.

RIDGE: And what he -- what he said to me was really revealing. You know how beautifully he handled his loss and the letter he left for President Clinton, but he said I know what it is to win, I know what it is to lose. I'm going to go see Jeb -- typical.

BERMAN: So thoughtful.

And again, just to give a sense of the span of your relationship with the former president, you ended up chairing the National Organization on Disability --

RIDGE: Yes.

BERMAN: -- which he was -- he was --

RIDGE: He was our honorary chairman for 25-28 years until his death.

BERMAN: And you had a chance as the chair of that to actually interview him --

[07:35:01] RIDGE: It was great.

BERMAN: -- not long ago -- like two or three years ago -- about the subject of disability. He, of course, signed the Americans with Disabilities Act when he was president --

RIDGE: Yes.

BERMAN: -- he believes one of his most significant achievements.

What was that discussion like? RIDGE: Well, you know, he has always been a strong proponent ever since that day in the -- on the lawn, 25-28 years ago. And it was easy to have the conversation with a friend.

And he alluded to that moment and said, quite proudly, of all of the things that he had done -- and maybe -- and I don't take it out of context -- that might have been the thing of which he was most proud because he elevated the rights of people with disabilities.

And I remember when he concluded the conversation and we both agreed now having elevated the rights of disabilities with one more stage -- one more effort we have to make and that's get more of them in the workforce, and he agreed with that.

BERMAN: And, of course, when he's having this discussion with you in 2015, at that point he's in a wheelchair.

RIDGE: Absolutely, absolutely.

BERMAN: So, Governor, I -- you know, this is a tough time for you. Not only did you lose a friend and a mentor in George H.W. Bush, but it's just a few months after the passing of John McCain, another very close friend --

RIDGE: Right.

BERMAN: -- of yours. It's a tough season.

RIDGE: Well, you know, when you think of these two men and you think of their voices within the party, their voices within the country -- but they had global voices that I think are going to be missed.

And when we are trying to -- we emulate -- we want to emulate and admire all the personal qualities of President Bush and we focus on him today -- but we have forgotten, I think, the historic contributions he made to the global scene in that brief span of four years.

The Cold War victory, dealing with Gorbachev during the dissolution of the Soviet Union. Keeping Margaret Thatcher and Mitterrand under control as they're unifying Germany. The liberation of Eastern Europe.

He had a vision and was instrumental in forming the -- I think it was the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation Council because he saw the world -- perhaps, the trade world, the geopolitical world shifting in that. And at the same time, worked hard on the Americans with Disabilities Act, bringing both parties together.

It was a rather remarkable four years.

BERMAN: And you talked about the role of George H.W. Bush, and John McCain, and the party -- a very different Republican Party than now exists.

Do you think that the party will ever go back to them? What would it take?

RIDGE: Well, I am hopeful that as we get into this next Congress and we take a look at the leaders we've lost the past two years, strong partisans, moral compass, azimuth in one direction, embrace a traditional role of the Republican Party and global affairs, strong defense, reduce the deficit.

But also, the approach that they brought to a whole notion of governance -- honesty and candor. Reaching across the aisle and looking for bipartisan solutions.

We've honored them at these ceremonies, we write eulogies with flowering language. And I think perhaps now is a time for the party to rethink where we've been and where we want to be and take a look at both of them to say you know, there's some lessons here -- lessons of both leadership, humanity, passion, and compassion.

Maybe we start thinking and acting that way in the future.

BERMAN: Yes.

RIDGE: It'll be up to the leaders to do so.

BERMAN: So after you were governor, of course, you served in George W. Bush's administration as secretary of Homeland Security.

Was the former president, George H.W. Bush -- did he have a presence? Was he around in any way during the aftermath of 9/11 and the years after when you were serving?

RIDGE: Well, he certainly wasn't a physical presence but, you know, as they affectionately refer to each other, 41 and 43, I suspect that there were conversations between father and son that the world doesn't know about and frankly, doesn't need to know about.

BERMAN: Governor Tom Ridge, it's always a pleasure and an honor to speak to you. Thanks for coming in and talking to us today. And we're sorry for the loss of these two close friends of yours over this season.

RIDGE: They were remarkable men, great global leaders. I think the entire country will miss them both. Thank you.

BERMAN: Governor, thank you.

RIDGE: My great pleasure.

BERMAN: And coming up in our next hour, I should say we are going to speak to President George H.W. Bush's grandson, George P. Bush, who will eulogize his grandfather on Thursday in Texas before his burial.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: So many emotional responses to what we're seeing this week.

Meanwhile, President Trump's latest Twitter tirade against the Mueller probe, does it put him in legal jeopardy? We explore. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:43:00] CAMEROTA: The president, again, lashing out at his former personal attorney Michael Cohen. In return for decades of devotion to Donald Trump, Mr. Trump now says Michael Cohen should face stiff punishment and serve a long prison sentence.

By contrast, President Trump is praising Roger Stone who, at the moment, is refusing to testify against the president.

Joining us now are former House Intelligence chairman and CNN national security commentator, Mike Rogers. And, director and president, and CEO of the Wilson Center and former U.S. congresswoman from California, Jane Harman.

Both of your credentials are too long to read. I only -- this is only a 3-hour show, OK, people?

JANE HARMAN (D), DIRECTOR, PRESIDENT, AND CEO, WILSON CENTER, FORMER U.S. CONGRESSWOMAN FROM CALIFORNIA, FORMER RANKING MEMBER, HOUSE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: His are.

CAMEROTA: So, number one, as my grandfather would have said, that's a fine how-do-you-do for Michael Cohen, first of all, and all of his devotion to Donald Trump.

But here is the tweet that some people think puts the president in legal jeopardy, OK? This is the president yesterday.

"I will never testify against Trump. This statement was recently made by Roger Stone, essentially stating that he will not be forced by a rogue and out of control prosecutor to make up lies and stories about President Trump. Nice to know that some people still have guts!"

Jane, is that the dangling of a pardon? Is that witness tampering, to your mind?

HARMAN: Well, I am a trained lawyer but I'm not a litigator and I don't want to opine about that.

But I think it's a careless statement and let's see what happens in a year or so if the evidence -- if the evidence shows that not only that he lied -- this Roger Stone we're talking about -- but that the future for him is absolutely grim. I assume he has a family, and kids, and grandkids, et cetera. And, you know, the moment of truth hasn't yet arrived for him.

CAMEROTA: They haven't even reached out to him, which is notable. Mueller's prosecutors have not, as far as we know, reached out to Roger Stone.

HARMAN: What I was going to say is the sadness is here were are at the time of the Bush funeral in Washington where people recall decency, courage, restraint, good manners, et cetera, and we have this coarse exchange going on on the airwaves -- certainly, not in this room -- [07:45:00] CAMEROTA: Of course, not.

HARMAN: -- not by him or you or John Berman. But I'm just saying this is sad.

And, Donald Trump seems totally transactional. If you're loyal to him this minute, you get praised. And I just don't know how this wears over time.

And the last thing I want to say about the Mueller inquiry is I do know him and Mike knows him, too. He came to the FBI right around 9/11. I was a very senior Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee and worked closely with him.

His tradecraft is meticulous, he's a Republican. And what he wants to do is find out what the truth is, and that's what he should be doing.

CAMEROTA: And so, because you were both on the House Intel Committee, as chair, Mike, would something like this have gotten your attention?

MIKE ROGERS, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY COMMENTATOR, (R) FORMER CHAIRMAN, HOUSE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: Well, listen, I think it's bad form. And as a former FBI guy, I just don't think that rises to the level of a crime.

But you don't want your President of the United States out there talking about this in any way or encouraging people not to cooperate with a prosecutor of any form -- special prosecutor, U.S. prosecutor, local prosecutor.

CAMEROTA: But that is what this is doing. I mean, by saying the people who don't cooperate have guts, you don't think that that's a crime. It's a --

ROGERS: I don't think it's a crime. Listen, I think it's terrible -- bad form, it's unseemly, it shouldn't happen.

Then -- but, you know, the fact that these people are flipping -- I worked organized crime when I was in the FBI and if Sammy "the Bull" Gravano, who was the lieutenant who killed, you know, dozens of people on behalf of John Gotti, the head of the Gambino crime family -- if he flips, all of these people will flip eventually.

So all of these statements that the president's going to make -- I'm telling you, when one of those prosecutors or those agents walk in and say guess what, you're going to jail. And these folks, I wouldn't say, are the toughest hombres on the block, right? They think they're tough where they're at.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

ROGERS: They start going --

CAMEROTA: Yes.

ROGERS: -- and talking prison time, they are going to cooperate. I just would -- again, the whole thing is unseemly and it's very

unpresidential and I wish he wouldn't do it.

CAMEROTA: There are things in the Mueller investigation that are going to be revealed this week. This is an important week.

HARMAN: Yes.

CAMEROTA: So there will be Michael Flynn's sentencing memo. So we will know in the public, for the first time, really what Michael Flynn has offered up, what Michael Flynn did. What the deal was with Sergei Kislyak, the ambassador who he was trying to work a backroom deal with sanctions.

Paul Manafort -- we will also know more about his sentencing.

An interesting development from "The New York Times" this morning. There was talk that Paul Manafort had gone to Ecuador to do something with Julian Assange. Here's a little bit more information for you both about that.

"In at least two meetings with Mr. Manafort, Mr. Moreno" -- who is the incoming president at that time, in Ecuador -- "and his aides discussed their desire to rid themselves of Mr. Assange in exchange for concessions like debt relief from the United States, according to three people familiar with these talks.

They said Mr. Manafort suggested he could help negotiate a deal for the handover of Mr. Assange to the United States."

What's interesting about this is that yes, he did go to Ecuador. Yes, he did have these conversations. Now, that was his job. He often did these sort of backroom international deals as a consultant.

We don't know if there was any connection here to, at the time, Donald Trump.

What does this tell you about where we are, Jane?

HARMAN: Well, I like Mike's analogy to the mob prosecution. It tells you that the circles are closing. That one person talks about the next person who talks about the next person. And who's in the center of the circle? Hmm, we'll just see.

But again, it -- I don't want to get ahead of --

CAMEROTA: Yes.

HARMAN: -- what's going on with them.

CAMEROTA: Agreed, because there have been no direct links. I mean, actually, there's been nothing that we know of that suggests that Donald Trump directed Michael Flynn to do what he did or that Donald Trump directed Paul Manafort to have these talks.

HARMAN: No. CAMEROTA: I hear you.

HARMAN: But the story is being told through these pleadings and the legal documents that the Mueller group is filing. And he has personally signed a couple of the recent ones, the point being that he's ready to put his own credibility on the line for this.

And as people are speculating, by the time we get to the end of this we may not need a report because the report may be through the court system, and through a series of indictments, and through a series of plea deals. And I think that's how our court system is supposed to work.

And again, the goal is the truth. The goal isn't to get people.

CAMEROTA: And if he did (ph)?

ROGERS: You know, I just think the Flynn -- what's -- the Flynn document is going to be very interesting to me because he's been pretty quiet --

CAMEROTA: What are you looking for?

ROGERS: You know, obviously, he was close to the campaign, close on the national security front throughout the campaign and then became his national security adviser. So he is the one person that was inside the White House and so he could talk not only about what happened pre-campaign but during his first few weeks at the White House.

That will tell you where the focus of the prosecution is, I think, if whatever you'll get in the sentencing guideline -- they won't give you everything but they'll give you very important clues about where they're going and why that's important to understand.

Is he going after the president? Is Mueller going after the president? Is Mueller just going to lay out the cause of what happened on Russian --

CAMEROTA: Yes.

ROGERS: -- interference in the election?

CAMEROTA: President Trump, obviously, isn't the first person -- first president to have -- to face some sort of scandal or controversy in office.

Do you worry when you watched the G20 and what happened, and how he presented the U.S. on the international stage that it is too distracting for him? That it is getting in the way of doing the U.S. business?

[07:50:10] HARMAN: Well, I actually thought that was his best summit meeting.

And some things may have happened, like the dinner with President Xi, may lead to some kind of reasonable stand-down on the U.S.-China trade dispute. That's important because having a reasonable trading relationship with China matters to the U.S. It matters to U.S. jobs, something the president cares about.

I also think that we have a very competitive relationship with China and China is doing some things wrong. But it matters, again, that we try to find a way forward.

I just want to say one thing, which is Gina Haspel is now going to testify -- the CIA director -- before some members of the Senate -- chairmen and rankers of four committees -- and that's, obviously, to stave off a resolution on Yemen. I think, frankly, that resolution should proceed.

But I also think it's a good thing, and I'm sure Mike agrees with me, that we have testimony from her about what happened in the Khashoggi matter.

CAMEROTA: Yes. Look, I mean, Sen. Lindsey Graham was on record of how frustrated he was that she hadn't been sent last week to do all of that.

Jane Harman, Mike Rogers, thank you both very much.

HARMAN: Thank you.

ROGERS: Thanks so much.

CAMEROTA: As always, great to have you here --

ROGERS: Appreciate it.

CAMEROTA: -- with us -- John.

BERMAN: All right, thanks so much.

A new day and a new data breach. While we were getting ready to tell you all about the huge Marriott hack, another one came along that stopped us dead in our tracks. Why these cyberattacks are worse than you think.

A CNN reality check, next.

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[07:55:43] BERMAN: So, the question and answer Web site, Quora, announced it is the latest company to fall victim to a huge data breach. Quora says the names, e-mail addresses, and passwords of some 100 million users were compromised by a quote "malicious third-party." And while this data breach is the latest, it is not the worst, by a long shot.

CNN senior political analyst John Avlon has your grim data reality check -- sir.

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Your grim reality check. Look, every week it seems we get news of a new, massive data hack.

The problem is becoming so prevalent that the question increasingly isn't who has been hacked, but who hasn't because the unbelievable number of people impacted -- it becomes easy to just accept it.

And this phenomena even has a name. It's called breach fatigue. But we all need to stay awake and vigilant.

The most recent headline-grabbing breach is at Marriott where some 500 million of its customers may have had their data stolen. Everything from addresses to credit cards, dates stayed, where and when -- even passport numbers. To put this in perspective, there are only 329 million people in the United States.

Marriott said it responded quickly but security experts point out that this hack started back in 2014 and Marriott had a chance to stop it a year later and missed. It's a story we hear over and over. Big companies hoping that big data breaches will just blow over.

And now, here come the lawyers. At least one lawsuit against Marriott is seeking a class-action status and $12.5 billion in damages, which sounds like a lot until you do the math and figure out that's only $25 per hack victim. The lawyers, of course, hope to get much, much more money.

Now, as bad as the Marriott breach is, it's only the second-worst in U.S. history. The top prize goes to the 2013 Yahoo! that compromised the personal information of some three billion people. That's more than twice the population of China, folks.

And that's not even Yahoo!'s only entry in the top five. It's tied for second with Marriott with a data breach impacting 500 million folks in 2014.

And this fall, we saw another massive breach -- this time at Facebook -- that exposed the very personal information of around 30 million people. The company says no financial information was compromised.

But what was compromised is, in some ways, worse -- religion, relationship status, gender preference -- even places the user had been. It took Facebook 11 days to plug the leak after it was found internally.

And now, several senators are calling for action, building on an idea about an online privacy bill of rights and now suggesting everything from limiting how long companies can store customer data to jail time for CEOs who callously ignore privacy concerns.

Senator Mark Warner argues we must not accept this hack attack trend as the new normal.

And so far, we've only been talking about data breaches that cost money and people's identities, which is bad enough. But this week we also found what happens when hacking turns deadly.

A Saudi dissident friend of Jamal Khashoggi believes that some 400 WhatsApp messages that he shared with the murdered journalist were intercepted by Saudi authorities. In the messages obtained exclusively by CNN, the pair plotted resistance against Saudi Crown Prince MBS, who Khashoggi called a "pac man" devouring everything in his way.

At one point, Khashoggi's friend realized his phone may have been hacked. "God help us," Khashoggi responded, and two months later he was dead.

Khashoggi's friend is now suing the Israeli company that invented the software he believed was used to hack his phone. He says the guilt he feels over this messages contributing to his friend's death is unbearable.

Look, if 500 million people had their homes broken into we'd all be calling it a crisis, and it's time to understand that cybercrime is no less real and it demands action.

And that's your reality check.

BERMAN: It's an important point, John.

And I have to say, the minute that I knew the press would pick up on this is when it was Marriott Rewards that had been breached because every reporter in America is obsessed with reward points there. Now, it's real all of a sudden.

AVLON: Now, it's personal. That's right.

BERMAN: Yes.

CAMEROTA: That got our attention.

AVLON: Yes.

CAMEROTA: John Avlon, thank you very much.

AVLON: Thanks, guys.

CAMEROTA: Of course, we are here in Washington this week as the country remembers George H.W. Bush. Our coverage continues right now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMES CLAPPER, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST, FORMER DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE: It could be a momentous week. These court filings could be quite revealing.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He pled guilty last December. Whatever it is he knows has been so important.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These two tweets together, it's part of a very disturbing pattern.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He talked about Roger Stone telling the truth. That is tantamount to obstruction of justice. JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: This is potentially an abuse of power that could lead to impeachment.

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY), SENATE MAJORITY LEADER: This hero has returned to the Capitol a final time.