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Reporting Indicates John Kelly Possibly Leaving Chief of Staff Position; President Trump Tweets about Mueller Investigation; President Trump Possibly Considering Former Attorney General Under President George H. W. Bush for Current Attorney General. Aired 8- 8:30a ET

Aired December 07, 2018 - 8:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00] JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: They're not on speaking terms at this point. We're getting this on what is already going to be a pivotal day for this White House and the Mueller investigation. The president is clearly aware of that. This morning he has been all over Twitter, a long Twitter rampage, at least four tweets taking aim at Mueller, Rod Rosenstein, the deputy attorney general, all kinds of other people connected to this investigation. The question is, why. The answer might be because at the end of this day, we will know much more than we do right now about where this investigation stands. Two sentencing memos will detail the extent of Michael Cohen's cooperation, what he's been telling them about the president's business ties to Russia.

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: The Mueller team will also file a document which spells out the lies they say Paul Manafort told them, which ended up tanking his plea deal. And there's more here. CNN has learned in the days before Mueller was appointed and right after FBI Director James Comey was fired, Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein and top FBI officials viewed President Trump as a leader who needed to be reined in. Sources say then acting FBI director Andrew McCabe took the extraordinary step at that point of opening an obstruction of justice investigation.

Let's begin with our breaking news. CNN's Kaitlan Collins is live in Washington with the latest. OK, what more do we know about how we got to this point today for John Kelly?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Erica, we know that things have gotten so bad between President Trump and his chief of staff that they're not speaking right now. And essentially their relationship is seen as a stalemate right now, and White House officials believe that essentially it is no longer tenable because the two of them are disagreeing so much. Even though they've disagreed before, they believe that right now things are so bad that they are expecting, John Kelly, the chief of staff, to resign in the coming days.

Now, we have had this up-down relationship, back and forth between President Trump and John Kelly for some time now, since the beginning of this year when things first started going downhill for their relationship. But now it is seen as more serious inside the West Wing because President Trump is essentially telling people he's gearing up for what the next two years are going to look like with a Democratic House in Washington, and he wants to be prepared for that. And if he and the chief of staff, John Kelly, are not on speaking terms, they just don't believe that is a tenable relationship and that that can move forward in this West Wing.

Of course, that's going to raise the question of who it is that's going to replace John Kelly, because when Trump fired his last chief of staff, Reince Priebus, he had an immediate replacement for him, John Kelly, who had formerly been at the Department of Homeland Security. Right now, that's not seen as a given, who it is that would replace John Kelly. A leading contender has been the vice president -- Vice President Mike Pence's chief of staff Nick Ayers, but it is still an open question of whether or not Nick Ayers would take on that job. He has a much different style than John Kelly, this retired Marine general. Nick Ayers is seen as someone who is more politically savvy. He is much younger than John Kelly is. So if he does take over that job, it would be a very different West Wing.

Now, John Kelly leaving would really mark the end of an era inside this White House because when he entered, he really changed the way things were structured inside the West Wing, not only by curbing access to the Oval Office, but also restricting certain people from being able to call in to the White House switch board and be able to speak with the president. So it would raise the question of whether or not that's going to continue or whether there would be someone who wanted to instill a similar kind of order that John Kelly did.

But, of course, Erica and John, I've got to give you that word of caution that everyone in the White House will give you, that even though President Trump is actively discussing who it is that could replace John Kelly, nothing is final until President Trump announces it.

BERMAN: Kaitlan Collins, thank you very much for this reporting. Just to reinforce what Kaitlan is reporting from some of our colleagues in other networks, Major Garrett at CBS is saying that John Kelly is not in his office or wasn't as of 7:35, and he almost always is there at this time. Jonathan Karl at ABC is reporting that a senior staff meeting that was to be chaired by John Kelly has been canceled, so the signs are out there.

Joining us now, our CNN political commentator Ana Navarro, Democratic strategist Paul Begala, and former special assistant to President George W. Bush Scott Jennings. I guess, Ana, I want to start with you. Let's talk about the impact here. If, and I suppose we always have to say if until we see Kelly walking out with his bags at the end, what's the impact of no John Kelly in this White House?

ANA NAVARRO, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I don't know, because I think his impact has lessened tremendously in the last few months, certainly in the last several weeks. I think it is obvious to everybody that when John Kelly came in, he came in with great authority, he came in with great fanfare, with the trust and backing of Trump. He's obviously lost that.

And he's lost that because, look, John Kelly is an adult. John Kelly is a marine. John Kelly is a patriotic American. John Kelly is a responsible person.

[08:05:03] I have known him for many years. I knew him in Miami when he was commander of South Com. There's things he has done as chief of staff that I have criticized and I've disagreed with. But at the end of the day, the man is a responsible human being. And I think anybody can get tired of babysitting President Loco. Just go look at his Twitter feed today. This is somebody who is off his medications.

BERMAN: Paul?

PAUL BEGALA: Oh, no. Everything is fine. All is well on the good ship Titanic. The problem is not General Kelly. I said this when he was hired. Donald Trump is only three staffers away from a well-run White House -- the father, the son, and the holy spirit. The problem is Trump. He rots from the head down. And whoever he picks next, should General Kelly go, and I do trust our reporting, it's going to see the same thing. Trump going to Trump. And anybody who goes to work for him is going to wind up besmirched. As you say, John Kelly, a man who has given his entire adult life in service to our country, he's going to leave diminished because of his association with Donald Trump. It's going to happen to the next person who takes that job, too.

NAVARRO: Oh, god. I hope he writes a tell-all book.

(LAUGHTER)

HILL: There are a lot of questions we all have for him, that's for sure, especially how he got to this point. What was is, what is the, if in fact today is the day, what finally pushed him to the point where he decided this is it. So there's that question that hangs in the balance, which none of can answer this point, obviously.

There is also the question of who would step in, and a leading contender, as we heard, is Nick Ayers. This would be potentially a dramatic shift depending on how much control the president would actually give him.

SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think if Nick takes the job, I've known Nick for a very long time, and he is a real solid and well thought of political operative. And you look, the president is about to engage in a reelection campaign. They've made some other moves this morning. They took the White House political director Bill Stepien and the public liaison director, Justin Clark, both veterans of the first campaign, they have now moved back to the campaign as of this morning. If you see Nick Ayers take the job as chief of staff, you see a battleship that is being turned away from governing and towards the task at hand, which is reelection.

So to have a real political operative as chief of staff right now makes a lot of sense to me. I think Nick's success running the vice president's office made him attractive to the president. And I think he could have some success in this job if he's given the latitude to mesh the White House operation with the campaign operation and that they could do what they have to do to have a successful reelection campaign. HILL: Obviously -- Paul, I'll let you weigh in. Go ahead.

BEGALA: I'm a political guy like Scott and Ana. It's not quite time. My honest advice to the Trump White House would be you could get some things done in 2019. I would pick a Hill veteran. You'll have time enough to campaign. By the way, Donald Trump is a pretty good campaigner. I think he can take care of that. I worked for Bill Clinton. We lost the House. Clinton brought in Leon Panetta, a respected former congressman who both sides of the aisle had respect for. We got some things done with that Republican Congress, which is the most important thing to getting reelected. I would look at a Kay Bailey Hutchison, former senator from my state of Texas, loyal Republican. She's now our ambassador to NATO, respected by both sides of the aisle. He might have 2019 where he could really get some things done.

NAVARRO: She does not have the masochism to go into that White House --

(LAUGHTER)

BEGALA: That's probably true.

NAVARRO: -- as a chief of staff. Listen, that's a job where they chew you up and spit you out. It is a very tough job, and I don't know what Hill veteran is going to get it.

BEGALA: There's a lot of them.

NAVARRO: Yes, and they all hate Trump, or Trump hates them.

JENNINGS: What strikes me from a staffing perspective, this is one important thing. But the other thing going on is they still don't have enough lawyers on staff to handle what Paul just mentioned. That's dealing with the Hill. Yes, maybe they get some things done. I'm skeptical. But the onslaught of investigations demands -- I think after 2006, when we lost the House and the Senate and the Bush White House, we doubled the number of lawyers and it still wasn't enough. They have to absolutely staff up that legal office because the subpoenas, the inquiries, the people that will be called to the Hill, it will be a huge headache to the White House.

BERMAN: Thanks for the segue, Mr. Jennings, there, because it's not about lawyers in January, it might be lawyers by noon that this White House needs, because we're going to get more information, I'd say probably by 5:00, where we're going to get documents from the Mueller team about what's been going on with Michael Cohen, what's been going on with Paul Manafort. Ana Navarro, I know you are waiting with bated breath here. We only learn things very slowly in this investigation, but this is one of those rare days where we will know more by the end of the day than we know today.

NAVARRO: Obviously. And again, I go back to -- I think that some people it used to be that you would do fortune telling, you would read the tea leaves. Now all you have got to do is read Donald Trump's Twitter feed. And he is obviously shook this morning. He is tweeting attacks since early in the morning, one after the other against Mueller, against the investigation, against the integrity of the entire thing. He obviously knows winter is coming.

HILL: So we have that. We can tell, as you point out so well, by the tweets, it is obvious that the president is rattled this morning.

[08:10:02] It is impossible to miss the fact that there are all these other changes happening on the same day that we know this is coming. Distraction much? Perhaps. And there's also this new reporting in "The Atlantic" and a fascinating interview with Rudy Giuliani where he seemed far more candid, frankly, than I think he has in the last few months and more measured in his assessment of the president, where he's at as his client, and also how the president is handling everything, which is, as we have known for a long time, on his own. He said I can't control him. I certainly can't control his tweets. All of that adds up to something, Paul.

BEGALA: It does. And this president needs, Scott's right, more lawyers and better lawyers. And he needs to listen to them. I don't think that that's likely to happen. But we will find out more. I suspect the president knows more about what Mueller has than we do because he does have lawyers and they are talking to the other defendants. They have joint defense agreements, perfectly acceptable, common practice in these kinds of cases. So he knows more than we do. And he must the worst poker player in the world. Down south we're saying a hit dog tweet.

BERMAN: That's the new version.

BEGALA: This is a tech version, but he's tweeting. He is telling us that this is a very big deal, the Mueller reports today.

BERMAN: If you do an overlay between some of the president's tweeting and anger on this subject and actual events, you will see there does occasionally seem to be a coincidence there. You say the president needs a good lawyer. He may have his eyes on someone widely regarded as a good lawyer to go to an important lawyering job, which is attorney general of the United States. William Barr who was the attorney general under George H. W. Bush, the late president whom we have been celebrating all week, is said to be a leading candidate for attorney general. I don't think there is a coincidence, by the way, that these two things are aligning this week with all the focus on George H. W. Bush that maybe President Trump is looking at someone who was part of that administration.

JENNINGS: Yes. Barr would be a great choice. I would just say to the White House, that whatever you are going to do on this, get someone into the confirmation process immediately because it is going to take some time. These senators, even though I think the person is highly likely to be cleared by a Republican Senate, they are going to have to answer a lot of questions. There's going to be a deep vetting of whoever this choice is, so let's get someone into vetting and into the confirmation process sooner rather than later to have a fully functioning and fully staffed Justice Department. I think the situation with Whitaker has bumped along, but until we get someone in the confirmation process, folks are not going to be satisfied. So I would just say pick the person you want and get going and hit the ground running in January with a confirmation.

BERMAN: It may be happening today. We have the Barr news, we have Heather Nauert coming in as a nominee to be ambassador to the U.N. We have John Kelly maybe on the way out. We have all this Mueller stuff all happening today.

HILL: It's 8:12.

(LAUGHTER)

BERMAN: It's going to be a Friday, folks.

HILL: Just in case anybody wanted to know, it's 8:12.

BERMAN: Going to be a Friday.

NAVARRO: Mueller Christmas.

BERMAN: Paul, Ana, Scott, really appreciate it. Thank you very much for being here.

President Trump, as we were saying, has his eyes on a new possible nominee for attorney general, someone familiar with that job. What will it mean for the Mueller investigation? We're going to be joined by someone who knows something about investigations, a good friend of Paul Begala, former independent counsel Kenneth Starr weighs in next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:16:34] JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: All morning long, President Trump has been attacking special counsel Robert Mueller and his investigation, just hours before we are expecting big developments from that investigatory team. The special counsel will explain why it says Paul Manafort lied to investigators, and we're going to see a sentencing memo from Michael Cohen. We will see details about what he has been cooperating with, both in terms of Russia and also things that happened during the campaign in terms of Stormy Daniels and Karen McDougal.

Joining us is Ken Starr. He led the independent counsel investigation of President Bill Clinton. He is the author of the book, "Contempt: A Memoir of the Clinton Investigation".

The most immediate news this morning, Ken, we talked about this before, the president is attacking Robert Mueller saying he has conflicts of interest. He's been more personal in the past.

What's your assessment of Robert Mueller?

KEN STARR, LED INDEPENDENT COUNSEL INVESTIGATION ON PRESIDENT CLINTON: I continue to believe in the integrity of Bob Mueller. The president is not well-advised to continue these attacks. They're going nowhere. They're doing no good. I think they do him harm.

Obviously, the Congress continues to support on both sides of the aisle the Mueller investigation. Let's bring it to an end. But the attacks, I think, are self-defeating.

BERMAN: Now, you are a lawyer, a well-practiced lawyer. You know the nature of the documents we are going to see today, in one case the sentencing memos from Michael Cohen on two separate matters.

One, just to be clear so people, because there are two separate matters, one, this most recent plea deal where he said that he lied to Congress about business dealings he was doing with Russia well into the 2016 campaign. The other plea deal is with the Southern District of New York where he

pled guilty to payoffs in the Stormy Daniels and Karen McDougal, arranging it for Karen McDougal in cahoots with then candidate Donald Trump.

What are you expecting to see here? What do you think we might learn from these memos today?

STARR: We'll get more texture and flavor of the details. We're going to have some details filled in, subject, of course, as we saw, with General Flynn, documents to the redactions. Those redactions, by the way, and we'll see what they are, and we don't know what's behind the redactions by definition, but those redactions tell us that there is activity underway. It is continuing in the Mueller probe.

So I think when we say it looks as if things are coming to an end, and I have said that, I think the redactions are going to be as it were kind of a signal that there may be more or there may be less remaining. But in any event, you just get a fuller picture. There will be details that we do not know now. We will know later today with respect to what was Michael doing. The Paul Manafort situation is obviously different because of the brokenness of that relationship.

And why was he lying to Congress about the timing of the Russian project, the Moscow project? I'm behind the veil of ignorance, most of us are. Why would you lie? What was the reason for that? There has to be a reason and hopefully we'll know that.

BERMAN: One other development overnight, CNN reporting in that brief period after James Comey was fired and while Mueller was brought on as special counsel, the then-acting director of the FBI, apparently with the knowledge of the Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein, opened an obstruction of justice investigation.

[08:20:09] To me, a layperson, when I read that, that seems like a major step. It seems like that is not the type of thing that you do casually. How do you read it?

STARR: I think it was the spur of the moment. From what I have read of the report, I'm prepared to assume the accuracy of it, it was a crisis moment. What should we do? This doesn't look right, so what is it that's the right step to do?

I don't think that there was, from what I have read and my understanding more generally, a sober look at what is it that we're saying that the president of the United States, given his power under Article Two of the Constitution could be guilty of. I don't think the lawyers from the office of legal counsel, for example, were likely brought in to say, is that right? Can we actually open based on these facts?

The president was open and transparent. I don't like the Russia probe. I want it to go away and the like. So that truthfulness, that candor suggests to me that there was not an obstruction of justice in light of his exercising his power.

Was it a wise exercise of his power? Debatable, right? But was it criminal? I don't think so.

BERMAN: We will see if the special counsel tells us what he thinks on that.

I want to get your take on two more things very quickly. Number one, William Barr, the leading candidate to be the next attorney general. Of course, he had the job before.

You worked with him. He stated publically he's got issues with aspects of the Mueller investigation. Should those be something that perhaps he should have to recuse himself from the investigation, his oversight, if he does become attorney general?

STARR: Well, those are issues to be probed. But I have the greatest respect for Attorney General Barr. I still call him General Barr because although we were colleagues under President Bush 41, to whom we were both proud to serve, he became the attorney general, and he did a superb job.

He's a person of integrity, so he will be consulting with the ethics officers, lay out the facts. And Bill Barr turns square corners. He's extremely smart. But I think the president will be very well served to have someone of his experience in the Justice Department, especially given the nature of these times in which the president finds himself.

BERMAN: All right. I want to ask you one other question on a completely different subject. Jeffrey Epstein has been back in the news, and you were part of his legal team. Senator Ben Sasse of Nebraska is asking for answers from the department of justice about this deal that he cut years ago having to do with these charges involving teenage girls.

Sasse writes: The fact that this monster received such a pathetically soft sentence is a travesty that should outrage us all. And he's calling for an investigation of this.

Again, you were part of that legal team. What's your response?

STARR: Oh, my response is, first of all, I think the Senate is just completely wrong. And once -- he's a very smart guy, very able guy. Once he finds out the facts, I think he will see that the case was handled exactly in an appropriate way.

Look, I disagreed. I didn't think it should be a federal case at all. That was part of my submission. But I think once the facts are more fully known, we'll see that Alex Acosta, as the United States attorney, handled himself with complete integrity.

BERMAN: All right. I hope we get a chance to talk about this further and other issues

Ken Starr, always a pleasure to speak with you. Thanks for your help this morning.

STARR: Thank you. My pleasure.

BERMAN: Erica?

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: Democrats flipping 40 seats this midterm election. That is the most since Watergate. We'll speak to the incoming chair of the Democratic caucus, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:27:39] HILL: Breaking news. Sources telling CNN White House chief of staff John Kelly is expected to resign soon. That news comes as we await new details of course today on the Russia investigation from Robert Mueller's team. Details about Paul Manafort and Michael Cohen. We are waiting on those court filings today.

Joining me now, the incoming chair of the Democratic Caucus, Hakeem Jeffries.

Good to have you with us.

REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES (D), NEW YORK: Good to with you.

HILL: So, I have to get your take on this news that we're just getting. That chief of staff John Kelly expected to resign soon and that a leading contender is Vice President Mike Pence's chief of staff, Nick Ayers.

JEFFRIES: I don't know much about the leading contender. But I can say as it relates to John Kelly, it's been a tremendous disappointment. He had done a lot for our country in terms of his service prior to arriving at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.

Once he arrived there it was a total disaster. He was supposed to change the chaos that has been the Trump administration, but it's really gone from bad to worse. At the end of the day, his tenure should be judged based on output.

The only legislative thing they have accomplished in the first two years has been a tax scam where 83 percent of the benefits went to the wealthiest 1 percent, exploded our debt and they're going to try to stick senior citizens with the bill and young people in terms of trying to strip away Social Security and Medicare. We'll see what comes next. But by any objective standard, it's been a failed tenure for John Kelly.

HILL: So, you think it's time for him to go and has been for sometime? If I'm reading between the lines there. JEFFRIES: It's certainly time for him to go. And hopefully whoever comes in next is willing to try to find common ground with us as house Democrats to deal with the substantive pocketbook kitchen table issues we will focus on in the majority.

HILL: Do you think that's something the president is looking for, someone who is opening to finding common ground with Democrats?

JEFFRIES: Well, that's not clear because the president does tend to want to have people around him who are sycophants, who don't necessarily disagree with him or individuals who weren't able to steer him in the right direction. That's been unfortunate.

Hopefully, that will change because we're committed to enacting our agenda as House Democrats and to work with the White House and the Senate in order to get things done like lowering the high cost of prescription drugs or real infrastructure plans.

HILL: So, you're holding out a hand there, you're holding an olive branch to the president, saying I'm here to work with you.

JEFFRIES: Well, I think the American people inherently want us to work together in a divided government context.