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Trump Defends Payments; Lyft Co-Founder's Struggle; Former Senators Warning. Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired December 11, 2018 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:30:00] JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Mostly interested in your perspectives on this.

Ken, I want to start with you.

The Southern District of New York took a guilty plea from Michael Cohen. Michael Cohen pleaded guilty to a felony campaign finance violation and the Southern District said in doing so he acted in coordination and at the direction of individual one, who is President Trump. We have had lawyers come on here and say, were President Trump not the president, he would be charged with a felony. Is that true?

KEN CUCCINELLI, CNN LEGAL AND POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: No. I don't -- I don't buy that. And we're in the context of a campaign here and there is precedent and it's the John Edwards precedent. And I've heard other people say, no, no, it's not like John Edwards.

But, look, this sort of situation for which the money was paid is an embarrassing topic to be covered and a campaign provides pressure on the other side, for the other side to extract such payments. That doesn't change the fact that it is a personal matter and that we have an example in the not too distant past where this was not prosecuted. And it would be completely untenable now with a candidate of the other party to do that.

BERMAN: Well, hang on a second. I just want to stop you. It was absolutely prosecuted. It was absolutely prosecuted. He was not found guilty, but it was prosecuted to great -- to a great extent, Ken.

CUCCINELLI: OK. Well, that -- you're correct. I sit corrected. But the outcome is what matters, is that it is not a convictable offense. And to go in a different direction, to achieve a different outcome, if that were to happen, with a candidate, then candidate of the other party would destroy the appearance of justice, not to mention justice itself. Absolutely destroy the notion of the rule of law in consistent application in the law.

BERMAN: Jeffrey.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: Completely disagree. And the Edwards example, as you point out, it was prosecuted, which was a much, much weaker case, more than a year before the election. Here you have transactions, on the eve of the election, to cover up an extremely political damaging material because the election is happening. The relationship, such as they were, with McDougal and Stormy Daniels were years before the presidential election. But then, out of all time, to make these expenditures, it's right on the eve of the election because Donald Trump recognized this was an embarrassing, politically toxic subject for him. He wanted to cover it up, so he paid the money to cover it up to help him win the presidency, which he did.

So, I mean, it is a total political expenditure. And I do think that if Donald Trump had not been president of the United States, and thus immune from being criminally prosecuted, he would be a co-defendant in the Michael Cohen case.

BERMAN: Ken, the fact that the president lied about it in public for so long, does that play into it?

CUCCINELLI: Prosecutors may think so, but anything that is this personally controversial, I don't think that's terribly surprising. People don't go wandering around and admitting that.

With respect to Jeffrey's point abut timing. Look, John Edwards didn't win his party's nomination, but he was in a hotly contested, ultimately three-way contest for the nomination. And he was a meaningful contender in that race. And unlike anything related to the stories for then candidate Donald Trump, John Edwards, of course, had a child come out of his relationship. And that's -- that rather tied him down. That created evidence of the truth of the underlying story, which is still disputed by the president with -- in his personal case.

So Jeffrey's point about timing I don't think is well founded because it was during a primary, so it wasn't near November. So what? It was still very much in the mind of John Edwards and very much a part of preparing and successfully executing his campaign for his party's nominee for president. There's no difference from a legal standpoint between the general election, the primary contest and so forth. It was still the same pressure, the pressure of an election, that forced the action to be taken.

TOOBIN: But, you know, one of the problems with having this kind of debate is that neither of us has access to all the evidence in the case. You know, what if Michael Cohen --

CUCCINELLI: True.

TOOBIN: Has evidence that he and Trump talked about the fact that this was because of the campaign? I mean, the problem with this conversation is the Southern District has evidence that prompted them to say that these payments were made at the direction of Donald Trump. I don't know what that evidence is. I don't think the Southern District is lying about what -- that they have this evidence. And I think that would be the most important determinate in the prosecutorial decision, as it always is, which is, what's the evidence in the case? And we have a piece of it but not all of it.

[08:35:29] CUCCINELLI: But two points.

BERMAN: Go ahead, Ken. CUCCINELLI: Yes, two points. One, we're always speculating here. We're

asked to speculate.

TOOBIN: It's cable news, Ken.

CUCCINELLI: And that's one of the weaknesses of these discussions. I -- that's exactly right, Jeffrey, on that we agree. And that -- that can create some problems.

BERMAN: But, Ken -- but, Ken, can I -- can I -- can I just get you on this point, Ken.

CUCCINELLI: Wait, let me get to the second point. I only had two.

BERMAN: OK, go ahead. Right.

CUCCINELLI: The second point is that the political motivation, the pressure of the campaign, can be part, even a part large, of the motivation of the individuals involved without converting this to a pure campaign undertaking. There is still massively the personal element that's related to this. And that's overriding, and that's decisive. And it certainly was, I believe in the Edwards matter, and it should be in this one.

BERMAN: Then just very quickly, Ken, like in 10 seconds or less, why did Michael Cohen plead guilty to it and why did the Southern District prosecute it if, as you say, it's a nothing?

CUCCINELLI: Well, Michael Cohen is making a deal. This is part of a bigger deal. And we don't know the terms of that deal either, though I'm -- it's not looking very good for Michael Cohen.

And, Michael Cohen has not shown himself to be a very good lawyer. And I don't imagine he's making good decisions for himself. It was very unwise on a -- just on the question of this issue to plead guilty, but there's a lot more going on for Michael Cohen and he may have traded it for other considerations.

BERMAN: Ken Cuccinelli, Jeff --

TOOBIN: But you know who is a good lawyer, and it's Ken Cuccinelli, and it's always impressive and in -- I always like even disagreeing with him.

BERMAN: (INAUDIBLE).

You are both good lawyers.

CUCCINELLI: That's very kind.

BERMAN: I enjoy the conversation. Thank you guys both very much.

Alisyn.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: That was quite a Kumbaya moment there.

BERMAN: Yes.

CAMEROTA: All right. Thank you, John.

A powerful tech boss opens up about his secret struggle.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN ZIMMER, LYFT PRESIDENT AND CO-FOUNDER: I went to a dark place. And, you know, people didn't see that when I came into work.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: More of our CNN exclusive, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:41:20] CAMEROTA: One of the top bosses at Lyft says the company plans to make its services better than owning a car. Yes, he said that. John Zimmer is also opening up about a secret personal battle that he's been going through.

CNN's Laurie Segall joins us with an exclusive from her new series, "The Human Code."

Tell us all about it, Laurie.

LAURIE SEGALL, CNN SENIOR TECHNOLOGY CORRESPONDENT: You know, John Zimmer's a very interesting guy. He doesn't actually have a typical Silicon Valley background. He studied hospitality and not engineering. So he talks a lot about empathy as a core value.

I spoke to him about the future of self-driving cars, what that means for jobs. And, also, he gets really candid about his personal struggles with entrepreneurship. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEGALL: What do you say to the Lyft driver who says I am genuinely concerned that I'm going to become irrelevant?

JOHN ZIMMER, LYFT PRESIDENT AND CO-FOUNDER: Yes, I would say I don't believe that's the case and I'm going to do everything possible to make sure that's not the case.

Over the next 10 years, I believe that we will have a proposition with Lyft for transportation as a service that is better than owning a car. And the majority of miles will turn over to platforms like Lift.

I don't see a time in the next decade or longer that we will need less drivers. We, as a company, will do everything possible to make sure that if there was that extreme of a transition, which, again, I don't believe to be true, then we would be responsible in that (ph).

SEGALL: Is there a moment you can go back to that you failed as a leader? ZIMMER: I mean stuff that happened that people didn't see. I mean I

think I was -- I was in a funk for several months. Four or five years ago Uber has 30 times as much cash as you. I went to a dark place and, you know, people didn't see that when I came into work.

SEGALL: What does a dark place look like?

ZIMMER: I was depressed. And I didn't know what to do. And I was -- it was foggy. And I didn't necessarily take action and focus on what I could control. I got, you know, overwhelmed with the things I couldn't control. And, again, I think that's normal, and I've learned a lot from it. I was slower to lead, I think, in that moment because I had to get myself right.

SEGALL: A lot of people in Silicon Valley have talked to me about depression or feeling, you know, because I think the same -- a lot of the same traits that make you incredible and great are also linked to some of the stuff that could be a little darker. So like during that time, like how did you take care of yourself? And I'm sure it was lonely, too, right, because when you're a leader at a company like this, who do you get to talk to and say I'm not doing OK? You're at the top of the company.

ZIMMER: Super fortunate, one, my wife has been incredible and my co- founder Logan. So, you know, he's often more reserved and more quiet. He's extremely steady.

SEGALL: It's cool to be on the other side talking about it when the fog is cleared.

ZIMMER: Yes.

SEGALL: I wonder like what is your advice to folks who are going through the fog?

ZIMMER: I mean it goes back to one of the reasons we want to build this is like community. And I think it's been overused and kind of oversold in kind of businesses. Oh, we're here to connect people and build community. So I want to be careful with how I talk about it.

SEGALL: Sure.

ZIMMER: But that's what matters the most. That's what makes us human. Being able to like either give or receive care from other human beings. And I think in today's world with so many distractions and so much information being thrown at us, it's easy to get distracted and sucked in versus, you know, go outside, get some fresh air, take a walk in nature, talk in person to your friends. Some of the most basic principles of being human are the best ways, I think, for me at least, to get out of that fog.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SEGALL: Certainly good advice. And, you know, he's one of many founders beginning to open up more about the dark stuff, about depression, about mental health, you know. And also, by the way, at a time where Lyft is prepping to go public. So, you know, really a venerable, honest moment but from a leader who has always talked about putting humanity first. And that's something I think we need to talk a lot about when it comes to Silicon Valley. I think that narrative has been missing.

[08:45:19] BERMAN: Laurie promised I would find him compelling, and she was absolutely right.

CAMEROTA: I really appreciate that because the more we talk about it openly, the more the stigma is removed.

SEGALL: Right. Right.

CAMEROTA: So that's great. Thanks, Laurie. Thanks so much for bringing us that.

SEGALL: Thank you.

CAMEROTA: All right, there are dozens of former senators from both parties, they have united to send a warning to current lawmakers. One of those joins me next with that warning.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: A bipartisan group of 44 former senators have issued an extraordinary warning to current senators. In a "Washington Post" op- ed, they say we are at an inflection point and it is time to put the country ahead of partisanship. They say, quote, we are entering a dangerous period.

[08:50:04] One of those former senators is Republican Alan Simpson. He joins us now on the phone.

Good morning, senator.

ALAN SIMPSON (R), FORMER WYOMING SENATOR (via telephone): Good morning. Good morning. Here we are out in the wild west early in the morning.

CAMEROTA: Thank you for getting up so early for us.

I want to put up a graphic of all of the 44 senators who have signed on to this cautionary letter in which, as I said, you all make the point that we're entering a dangerous period. What do you mean, exactly?

SIMPSON: Well, you can see what's happened. You can see the bitterness that goes on. You see the fact that so and so, if they're a Democrat, you just ignore them, or if they're a Republican, you ignore them. That the -- it's obvious to the American public that the Senate, where I used to work with -- I was the assistant leader of the Senate. And who did I work with? Al Cranston (ph) of California, a very noted progressive, and Wendell Ford (ph) of Kentucky, a thoughtful, moderate Democrat, Tom Daschle. Those are the people I worked with. Those are -- and in the Judiciary Committee, we worked with Ted Kennedy and Joe Biden while Strom Thurman or Orrin Hatch were the chairman. This is nuts.

CAMEROTA: And so there 44 senators -- and, again, we'll put them up -- there are, I believe, 32 Democrats, there are 10 Republicans, there are two independents. Tell me the back story. How did you all come together to write this warning? Who reached out to whom?

SIMPSON: Well, Chuck Hagel and Chris Dodd perhaps were a generating force in it and contacted me and sent me a copy of it. I said, sounds good to me, sign me up. And there will be others who will come aboard. I feel quite sure. They did it in a short period of time. I didn't know what their timetable was. But once I approved it, I didn't care what they did with it. Move it. And so I don't know that there's anything sinister in it. I think it's just a case of, when you look at a body you loved, which was the U.S. Senate, and saw it work where you -- I actually visited and laughed together and ate lunch together. They had a dining room, a private dining room, that was, you know, separated into Democrat and Republican. That's gone. They don't -- nobody would go in and sit with anybody on the other side. You'd go over and talk with Dale Bumpers (ph) or you'd go over and talk with Jesse Helms (ph) or you'd go -- you don't -- we integrated. We talked to each other. That dining room, I was surprised a few years ago, I looked in, it was just a storage room. So and then you've got to go raise money all day --

CAMEROTA: Wow, that is really a testament. Yes, senator, I mean that's really -- the loss of that comradery, you know, that dining room I think really does tell you something about where we are, as does this exchange that I want to play for you with one of your former colleagues, Orrin Hatch, the senator of course who's still in the Senate, and our Manu Raju, who asked him about the revelations that have come forward this week from Robert Mueller in these sentencing memos, primarily that Michael Cohen says he was directed by Donald Trump to commit campaign finance laws. So I just want to play for you Orrin Hatch's response to that. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. ORRIN HATCH (R), JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: The Democrats will do anything to hurt this president. Anything. And what happened before he was elected president, you know, is one thing. But since he's been elected, the economy has done well. Our country is moving ahead. We're in better shape than we were before he became president. And I think we ought to judge him on that basis.

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: But that's not the Democrats. That's the Southern District of New York. The U.S. attorney. I mean that's what's making these allegations.

HATCH: Do you think he's a Republican, do you?

RAJU: Well, he's been appointed by the president. He's been appointed by this president.

HATCH: OK. But I don't care. All I can say is he's doing a good job as president.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: I don't know if you could hear that, Senator Simpson, but basically what Orrin Hatch said was he doesn't care. I mean that's a quote. He said, I don't care about the revelations that have come from Mueller. He thinks that he's doing a good job as a president.

What's your response to that?

SIMPSON: Oh, I don't want to get into that kind of stuff.

I can tell you one thing that would solve everything. It would -- now, you want to hear this. Every U.S. senator who goes to the Judiciary Committee should have a full FBI investigation from birth until they go on the committee. That will take care of a lot of this crap.

CAMEROTA: How would that take care of what we've seen with -- happen with Donald Trump?

SIMPSON: Because you don't go back into the life beyond. You don't go -- hell, when I was 18, I was on federal probation for shooting mailbox. I fought a cop. I got thrown in the clink a night. Who is this? What's -- whatever happened to the mote (ph) in the eye of all these guys who are always bitching, whining, moaning they want a piece of everybody. So let it play out. I'm not going to get into -- Orrin, I care deeply for him. I cared deeply for Joe Biden. I cared -- I loved them all. And I got along with them all. And we made it work. So if you want to pick old scabs, you better pick a new guy to get on the show.

[08:55:14] CAMEROTA: But which is the old scab that we're picking?

SIMPSON: Well, I look at -- well now we have to watch a movie on Gary Hart (ph). If that ain't picking an old scab, you tell me what it is.

CAMEROTA: Well --

SIMPSON: I worked with him. He worked -- we worked on nuclear regulation matters. We were good. We were friends. Picking an old scab. Go in and get -- Chappaquiddick. Good, go back and pick an old scab. Confirmation, go back and look into Professor Hill and Clarence Thomas. Why don't you leave people alone and go find some new work?

CAMEROTA: Well, I thought I was asking you about was whether or not your Senate colleagues who are currently in the Senate should say things like they don't care about whatever revelations are coming out?

SIMPSON: I don't -- this -- I don't -- that's none of my business. You called me to ask me questions about me. I can answer those.

CAMEROTA: I understand. But I thought that your letter was don't let party stand above principle.

SIMPSON: Got it. You got her. You're in it. You got her. You're right.

CAMEROTA: Senator Alan Simpson, we appreciate your perspective on all of this. Thank you. SIMPSON: Great. You bet. Bye-bye.

CAMEROTA: Bye.

Key developments in the president's search for a new chief of staff happening this morning. A possible front runner says he will lunch with the president. That's next.

BERMAN: I'm excited for that.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:00:08] POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: All right, top of the hour.