Return to Transcripts main page

New Day

Special Counsel's Memo Outlines 2017 Interview with Flynn; Senate Report: Russian Trolls Targeted Mueller on Social Media; Wire: At Least 17 Investigations Related to Trump & His Circle. Aired 6- 6:30a ET

Aired December 18, 2018 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: They took a general that they said didn't lie, and they convinced him he did lie; and he made some kind of a deal.

[05:59:37] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The bottom line is clear. He pled guilty to lying to the FBI, period.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: I would be surprised if he got any jail time at all.

SEN. RICHARD BLUMENTHAL (D), CONNECTICUT: The Russian disinformation campaign is continuing to echo the Trump White House in its attack on Mueller.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're never going to have a democratic, free and open process if we don't stop this now.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY with Alisyn Camerota John Berman.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: We want to welcome our viewers in the United States and around the world. This is NEW DAY. It is Tuesday, December 18, 6 a.m. here in New York.

President Trump's former national security advisor, Michael Flynn, will be sentenced this morning for lying to the FBI about his contacts with the Russian ambassador during the presidential transition. Overnight, Special Counsel Robert Mueller released a memo with details of the FBI's interview with Flynn from January of 2017; and that lays out the lies that Flynn told that day.

President Trump and Flynn's allies have suggested that Flynn was somehow trapped by Mueller into lying, but this memo debunks that claim.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: So what does Robert Mueller get for all his work? We learned overnight he's now a Russian intelligence target. A study first reported in "The Washington Post" notes the Russian operatives unloaded on Mueller through fake accounts on Facebook, Twitter and beyond, falsely claiming that the former FBI director was corrupt and that the allegations of Russian interference in the 2016 election were crackpot conspiracies.

That language is eerily similar to what we hear from the president of the United States every few days. Coincidence?

One other headline: James Comey unplugged. The former FBI director is slamming President Trump for his attacks on the FBI, and Comey is now publicly shaming or trying to shame Republicans for their silence, accusing them of failing to stand up for the rule of law.

CAMEROTA: All right. Joining us now, we have former special assistant to FBI director Comey, Josh Campbell; CNN senior political reporter, Nia-Malika Henderson; and former U.S. attorney Harry Litman. Great to have all of you here in studio.

NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Good to be here.

BERMAN: Mystery people walking every which way.

CAMEROTA: It's a beehive of activity here.

OK. Josh, John and I this morning have been pouring over the 302, as we like to call it in bureau speak.

JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: We're all learning the new terminology.

CAMEROTA: That's right. So here is the memo that outlines the times that Flynn lied to FBI agents. What do you see when you read this?

CAMPBELL: So, this is an incredible document not only in its breadth but also the fact that the FBI released it. So these are documents that oftentimes, after a case is closed and adjudicated, they'll come out years later. This is the FBI in real time releasing that.

I mean, this isn't completely altruistic. We saw a judge yesterday say we need to see this, but it really shows that the bureau, you know, pushing this information out.

There are some redactions in there, because he was obviously the national security adviser who was prone -- you know, had knowledge of a lot of secrets.

But what this tells me, having written more of these than I can even count, is that the FBI agents sat across from him, systematically went through several questions, at times prompting him. And there's one instance in there where he actually says, "Oh, yes, thanks for the reminder" on this tip about his conversations. And so it's just them doing their job. And so here we see the results of their work.

I think, just to kind of put a button on it, I think it really runs counter to this narrative of they were out to entrap him or set him up. Because this a document of exchange: people sitting across from the national security advisor, asking questions and being lied to. CAMEROTA: And they don't seem like "gotcha" questions, frankly.

CAMPBELL: Correct.

CAMEROTA: They seem like just trying to get to the answer.

CAMPBELL: That's right.

BERMAN: Actually, it seems like even less than that. It seems like they gave him a million opportunities to tell the truth, and he declined to do it. Again, I just want to show people what we're looking at here. All these redactions are everywhere on the page, and then I have extensive notes, because I'm not sure you're making fun of me. But I was poring over the 302 for a few minutes.

But again and again and again, Josh, they go after him and they say, "Really? Really? Are you sure?"

And he would be like, "No, no."

CAMPBELL: Just the facts, right? And, you know, they're trying to get information. And I've heard this from Dershowitz and a lot of these people, they were trying to set him up. I can tell you, having been an FBI agent, when I went into an interview, I wanted the information. I wanted to know what was in that person's mind, because that helps you further the investigation. You don't go in there thinking, "How am I going to set this person up?"

But again, he lied. And the question is why did he do so? That's something that will be the next phase. We'll learn today what his sentence will be for his lies.

CAMEROTA: Well, that's the really interesting part of what was the motivation to lie over and over to FBI agents? Surely, he knew better. He knew that that might end in trouble.

And so, Harry, listen, we've been told a couple of things, that Robert Mueller is recommending, basically, no jail time for Michael Flynn, because he's been so helpful. But then you see all this and all these redactions and how many times he lied. So what do you think's going to happen at sentencing today?

HARRY LITMAN, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY: So my best guess is, in fact, he will get zero time, because this, as Mueller makes clear, is a contrast. He's got a very distinguished record, 33 years of public service. He lies and it's serious, and Mueller lays out why, doesn't try to minimize it.

But then he's completely unfettered, and he comes in early. That's the coin of the realm for the FBI. The first person who can come through the door and give it all up, that will make other people come through. That's what you really need.

As to why he lied, it is a bit of a mystery, because he must have known about the call. But we have reason to believe he'd already committed himself to a story to perhaps the vice president and others. He might have felt trapped, but nevertheless, it's perplexing that he's sitting there. He must have known that they had the information.

[06:05:08] BERMAN: It's totally perplexing, and maybe it just is that he was blocked (ph) into a story. Or maybe it's part of this bigger pattern where so many people connected to the president over the last two years have lied about issues when it comes to Russia.

HENDERSON: And the question is what did the president know? What did his advisers know? In that document, it's clear that he's communicating with someone at Mar-a-Lago, aides to the president, perhaps, about what the story is, what the conversations were with Russians, what the story was. So, you know, that's -- that's the big question.

We've obviously seen that in the Cohen affair, for instance, this idea of Cohen, at least, alleging that it was the president who was directing him. Was that the case here? We don't know.

The president obviously hasn't said anything bad about Flynn. He basically defends him, saying that he was entrapped by the FBI. That document tells a different story.

It will be interesting to see what the president's reaction is after today, once we get this sentence handed down. Maybe it will be zero months in jail. Maybe it will be three. Who knows? But it will be interesting to watch his Twitter account.

BERMAN: It could be zero jail time --

HENDERSON: Yes.

BERMAN: -- plus stern words or very admonishing words from the judge saying lying is really, really bad. I wouldn't be surprised to see something like that, would you?

LITMAN: No, except we now have a wild card. The judge is known for occasionally going after the government. And he's the one who actually initiated the release of this 302 and seemed to have some sympathy for the notion that was there some entrapment here. So Judge Sullivan it's possible come 11 a.m., will actually be tongue wagging towards Mueller's guys. But even so that pushes toward a sentence of zero time.

The one thing about the zero time is people are saying that's pretty easy. It's quite clear from the document, Flynn could have been charged with several more crimes, serious crimes.

CAMEROTA: Like what?

LITMAN: Like -- like conspiracy to defraud the United States by essentially impeding the function of the Department of Justice, the Department of State. He was carrying on a rogue foreign policy on behalf, basically, of Turkey, who was paying him, when he wasn't even in the White House yet. It's serious stuff with, you know, national security repercussions.

CAMEROTA: So that must mean that he has given up a lot of information. In other words, if something -- if it's that serious with national security repercussions, for Robert Mueller to say "We recommend no jail time," what does that tell you?

CAMPBELL: Well, it tells us that he's a substantial cooperator. We saw that in the response memo that Mueller put out, where you know, he's actually indicating as much. "This person has been helpful to the government. He has cooperated. We recommend no jail time."

What was interesting is that after that, Flynn took a playbook from the president and, for some bizarre reason, decided to attack investigators. And then Mueller came back and said, "OK, time out, I just said that you were a substantial cooperator, but I'm not going to let this stand. You know better; you know lying is wrong."

But I think that -- that goal was accomplished, mission accomplished there. Now we move on to the question you know, that you actually raised, where what is he providing the government?

CAMEROTA: Yes.

CAMPBELL: It has to be a lot, because someone in his position, someone, you know, that knew all the things that he knew, I think that whether you're the president, whether you're the Trump campaign or anyone who ever ran in circles with Michael Flynn, who may have run afoul of the law, should be concerned right now, because he's giving up the goods.

BERMAN: All right. I want to shift gears, if I can, to something else we learned yesterday. There were those reports given to the Senate Intelligence Committee about just what these Russian hackers have been doing in terms of spreading false information online, every possible social media outlet --

CAMEROTA: It's worse than you knew.

BERMAN: It's worse than you knew, and it went on for longer --

CAMEROTA: Yes.

BERMAN: -- than anyone knew, including Nia, overnight we learned in "The Washington Post" the extent to which these Russian bots have been going after Robert Mueller.

HENDERSON: Yes, and similarly going after Bob Mueller in the way that Donald Trump is going after Bob Mueller. This idea that he's basically a rogue -- a rogue prosecutor, a rogue operator. Really salacious terrible ideas about Bob Mueller. And, again, you know, this is what we've heard from Donald Trump over the last many months.

We obviously know about what happened during the 2016 campaign, them targeting African-Americans, trying to suppress the African-American vote. Also the Trump campaign doing the same thing.

So the kind of -- you know, there's this idea of whether or not there was a collusion or conspiracy theory. There certainly was kind of -- they were in synch, certainly, the Trump campaign and Russia. And now with this Mueller probe they're certainly speaking the same language in terms of trying to undermine Mueller.

CAMEROTA: Here's one example. Let's put it up on the screen. This is what might have appeared on your Instagram or on your Facebook feed or in Twitter. And so it says: "Russia Special Counsel Mueller worked with radical Islamic groups to purge anti-terrorism training material offensive to Muslims." So that gets your attention.

[06:10:04] First of all, I don't know what the red -- the red writing there --

HENDERSON: "Merican fury." Yes.

CAMEROTA: But it says "Merican."

BERMAN: It's how the kids talk.

CAMEROTA: It's missing an "A."

LITMAN: They know how the kids talk. I mean, it's incredibly sophisticated and targeted.

And, you know, take a step back. This is a hostile power trying to undermine the most essential of democratic values, keep people from the polls, distort others. And it is incredibly targeted. This is -- this is how -- there's semi -- there's little groups of populations, each one of them, the Russians are speaking their language better than -- than the marketers in the United States.

CAMPBELL: To add to the bad news in this report, what they actually indicate is that the work isn't done yet. You have a lot of these accounts that are sitting there. They're lying in wait, waiting for another opportunity to manipulate the public, to spread disinformation, to sow discord.

And one thing that's interesting as you read this, this assessment is what the U.S. intelligence community was telling us in 2016 and into 2017, that the Russians were actively working to support Donald Trump, to hurt Hillary Clinton. You know, doing all this mischief-making, essentially, and interference. And you'll recall, the president was siding with Vladimir Putin over his own intelligence community, standing there in Helsinki, saying, "Well, he told me that he didn't do it."

Here, we now see additional evidence, an outside party, and now the executive branch accepting this report, saying that, look, what the intel community was saying is happening right now. It really is a wake-up call. I don't expect the administration to do anything. President Trump isn't going to go to the microphone and defend Bob Mueller here, you know, in his image.

CAMEROTA: No, but every single person who reads their social media account and who relies on it for what they consider news needs to start doing some critical thinking when they see things like this and say, "I wonder if this is a bot talking to me. I wonder if this is a Russian hacker right now."

CAMPBELL: That's right, absolutely. They're termites on these social media platforms. They continue to sow discord.

BERMAN: Let me play one bit of sound that happened yesterday. James Comey, your former boss, former FBI director, was testifying behind closed doors to Congress again. He was asked behind closed doors a lot about Hillary Clinton's e-mails and subjects that I don't think James Comey thinks is as important -- are as important as the Russian attacks on the election.

And afterwards he came out and said that Republicans who aren't standing up for the president -- well, listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMES COMEY, FORMER FBI DIRECTOR: People who know better, including Republican members of this body, have to have the courage to stand up and speak the truth. Not be cowed by mean tweets or fear of their base. There is a truth, and they're not telling it. Their silence is shameful.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: If you all want to weigh in quickly, right message? Right messenger? Two separate questions.

LITMAN: Right message and, in a way, right messenger, that it's from the FBI.

But, look, he's making a plea for sort of common values here. The Republicans in the last ten days, as there's been a kind of a pivot on the president, and it really appears that he is -- possibly has committed crimes, have been flailing and not sure what to say and have been running away from reporters.

I think he's really right. They need to come to grips not, you know, with country over party here; something serious that they can't just run away from.

CAMEROTA: And you're seeing?

HENDERSON: Yes, I mean, interesting, you know, reminding the country and reminding the Republican Party that the Republican Party has been the law and order party. This is something that Donald Trump ran on; as far back as Nixon, as well. So his sort of direct to camera address to Republicans, in particularly.

I don't think it will be effective with Republicans. You saw Sarah Huckabee Sanders basically come out and say the country -- that Donald Trump did the country a favor by firing Jim Comey. So Comey doesn't have a lot of fans in either party and even, perhaps, inside the FBI. You know that better than I do.

CAMPBELL: Yes, so I think it's different inside the FBI. I will agree with you on the right and left. He's angered both sides, you know, at different decision points, different decisions he had to make.

HENDERSON: Yes.

CAMPBELL: Inside the FBI -- and we saw this data, when they actually released -- someone FOIA'ed his climate survey. This is the anonymous reports that employees actually fill out about their leaders. High marks, off the charts. Really countered this notion that Sanders was saying that, "Oh, FBI agents were calling me, thanking us for firing James Comey," which was just nonsense.

But the one thing I'll say that's interesting, obviously, I'm biased when it comes to him as a person. His decisions he can defend. Good people can debate those.

But what was striking is that not only the silence from Republicans, but he was on their turf. He was standing in the halls of Congress, walking out of a briefing, talking about threats to national security, looking left to right; and he's standing by himself. He is the former director, who was fired because he's investigating the president. He's the lone high-profile voice that's standing up for the rule of law. It's really striking. I don't know where the Republicans are.

CAMEROTA: All of it is striking. Thank you all very much for the perspective this morning.

BERMAN: So it's not just Russia. There are at least 17 -- 17 known investigations facing President Trump's orbit right now. We'll take a much deeper look, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:18:32] BERMAN: President Trump's former national security adviser, Michael Flynn, will be sentenced today. Now, this is just one part of 17 investigations related to President Trump and his circle.

Look at this exhaustive list. This is from a new Wire.com piece that breaks down the probes from the various federal and state prosecutors and their significance.

One man is behind putting this list together. The author of that piece and CNN contributor Garrett Graff joins us now.

And Garrett, look, we shorthand this as the Russia investigation; but it's not just the Russia investigation. It is 17 separate, by your count, and distinct issues being looked at by several different entities here. How did it get from the Russia investigation to all of this?

GARRETT GRAFF, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Yes, it's an interesting -- interesting constellation to lay it out like this, John, because what we have seen over the last couple of weeks is sort of these back to back to back to back revelations about, you know, all sorts of aspects of this campaign -- of these investigations and the probe into the 2016 campaign.

And what we've learned sort of over these last couple weeks, when you put it all together like this, is that we're probably thinking about this the wrong way. That we short-hand it as "the Mueller probe" or, as you said, "the Russia probe," but it's really something that's much bigger than that.

And really, what this has morphed into is the examination of how foreign money and foreign influence flowed in and out of the Trump campaign, the transition, the White House and Trump's own businesses.

And so what you have now are these 17 different investigations, actually run by a total of at least seven different prosecutors, not just Mueller, but the U.S. attorney in the Southern District of New York, in Manhattan; the U.S. attorney for the District of Columbia; the U.S. attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia in Northern Virginia, which is where we saw two of Michael Flynn's business associates indicted yesterday for their work on behalf of the government of Turkey during the course of this campaign.

And that really, this is something that involves perhaps even as many as a half dozen countries and how they sought to buy influence on the Trump campaign.

BERMAN: Right. Let's take that last bit first, if you will. We keep saying just Russia, but it's not just Russia. It's Russia; it's Turkey; it's UAE; it's Qatar. It's country after country after country that are part of this investigation.

GRAFF: Yes, and we actually haven't seen some of these parts become public yet. We know all year that Mueller has been interested in the work of this would-be Middle Eastern power broker, George Nader, and some of the Middle Eastern work that he did, both in terms of some Russia meetings that he tried to set up, as well as, as you said, the UAE, Saudi Arabia, even Israel to a certain extent. And "The Daily Beast" has been reporting that Mueller is moving towards perhaps making some of those charges and part of that case public early next year.

But that this really is a case where there's all sorts of countries that were trying to buy influence. And it appears, in some cases, that they were quite successful trying to buy influence from the Trump campaign.

BERMAN: So President Trump said to Maggie Haberman and others famously -- I guess it was a year ago -- that looking into his finances, into his money and his businesses would be crossing a red line. Well, we know from this list that you've put together of 17 -- these investigations are way beyond any red line. And you note, though, that that's because Donald Trump as a political candidate observed no red line.

GRAFF: Yes, and that is one of the sort of fascinating things that we're learning, particularly as we get deeper into Michael Cohen's plea agreements and his court cases, in terms of this campaign finance violation with the hush-money payments to women to cover up extramarital affairs, as well as the Trump Tower Moscow deal that he pleaded guilty to since Thanksgiving, about lying to Congress over.

And that really, it was Donald Trump who so intermingled his businesses and his campaign and his transition, and now the White House, that it's impossible for prosecutors to forensically examine one without diving deep into the other.

BERMAN: Another aspect of this article -- and I really -- people should go read this, because we can't go through all 17 here. We don't have the time, but it's so interesting to look at each one.

But one of the things you note, Garrett, is that in many, if not all, of them, there are separate cooperating witnesses, separate people who have either pleaded guilty or who are in agreements with prosecutors as part of their investigations.

GRAFF: Yes, you know, we saw Donald Trump go over the weekend on that ten-tweet rant about rats and people cooperating with Mueller and with prosecutors. And, you know, that's obviously strange, to see the president of the United States drawing on the language of mafia bosses and the heads of criminal conspiracies to complain about the rule of law and the system of justice that we have.

But, you know, one of the things that obviously is making the president nervous is when you look across those 17 investigations, there are known cooperators in almost every single one of them. Michael Cohen, of course, being a big player in many of those cases.

And one of the things that should make the president and his family really nervous is that, in some of these cases, it appears almost everyone else involved in the conspiracy is cooperating with investigators except for the Trump family. And that's a very dangerous place for them to be, knowing that they're probably the final targets of those probes.

BERMAN: Yes, Michael Flynn, Michael Cohen, Rick Gates and then some other names that aren't household names, too, caught up in it.

All right, Garrett, I'm going to throw you up a softball here. How do you answer the question, because you know when people read this list of 17, people invariably are going to ask you which is the biggest threat to the president?

GRAFF: And I -- it's a totally fair question, and the short answer, obviously, is the campaign finance violations, because that's where we've seen the president already effectively accused as an unindicted co-conspirator.

[06:25:10] But, John, I think that misses the point to a certain extent. When there are 17 investigations targeting you, the problem isn't one of them. It's all of them. And it's the way that prosecutors can use leverage in one case to advance one of the other cases.

And one of the things that just is so remarkable in all of this is the shear amount of unrelated criminality that everyone else, seemingly, in this campaign was involved in. Paul Manafort, Michael Flynn, Michael Cohen. That there's so much crime taking place here that prosecutors have so much leverage when they're doing this investigation of the president. BERMAN: Garrett Graff, the list of 17 is "Wired." Check it out at

Wired.com. Thank you so much for being with us this morning. Appreciate it.

GRAFF: Anytime, John.

BERMAN: Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: All right, John. It is a beloved dance move from the '90s. I'm sure you did it at many a fraternity party.

BERMAN: I'm doing it right now off camera. You just can't see it. Way off camera.

CAMEROTA: Oh, I can see it. And now the actor who made the Carlton famous says a popular video game is hijacking his moves.

BERMAN: No.

CAMEROTA: Yes. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)