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Former FBI Director Urges GOP Lawmakers to Stand up to Trump's Lies; Sentencing Memo Outlines Flynn's Lies in 2017 Interview; Report: Russian Operatives Targeting Mueller on Social Media; Four Days Away from Possible Partial Government Shutdown. Aired 7-7:30a ET

Aired December 18, 2018 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY with Alisyn Camerota and John Berman.

[07:00:04] JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. Welcome to your NEW DAY. In just a couple hours, former national security advisor Michael Flynn will be sentenced for lying to the FBI about his contacts with the Russian ambassador during the transition. And just moments ago, President Trump wished him luck.

So a brief recap of what I just said seconds ago. Someone is pleading guilty to lying to the FBI, which is a felony; and the president is wishing him luck.

Overnight, we got a better idea of what Flynn told the FBI, as Special Counselor Robert Mueller complied with a judge's order and released a memo with details of the FBI's interview with Flynn in January of 2017. This is the 302. It's heavily redacted, but it does lay out the lies that Flynn told on that day.

The president has accused Mueller of trapping Flynn into lying, but if you look at this memo, again here, it clearly debunks that myth.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: We've also learned that Mueller has been targeted by Russian hackers and bots. A study first reported in "The Washington Post" says, "The Russian operatives unloaded on Mueller through fake accounts on Facebook, Twitter and beyond, falsely claiming the former FBI director was corrupt and the allegations of Russian interference in 2016 election were crackpot conspiracies."

And fired FBI director James Comey letting loose after his second round of closed-door questioning on Capitol Hill. He slammed President Trump for his attacks on the FBI; and he attempted to shame Republicans for their silence, accusing them of failing to stand up for the rule of law.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Joining us now, Jeffrey Toobin, Nia-Malika Henderson, Joe Lockhart.

I want to start at the end here. We just heard from the president of the United States a few hours before sentencing, Michael Flynn pleading guilty to lying to the FBI, which could get him up to six months in prison; and the president is wishing him luck. Wishing him luck, "despite" what he says, "the tremendous pressure being put on him about Russian collusion in our great and obviously, highly successful political campaign."

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: Well, you know, it reminds me a little bit of what Comey said, which is, I think, Comey reminded us that we need to take seriously all the stuff the president says.

I think those of us who are here every day, we somewhat become inured to the whack-a-doodle tweets and the, you know, totally outrageous stuff. The lies that the president tells.

And I thought Comey's statement was a good reminder of how outrageous this stuff is and how much of a departure from the norms and tradition of the presidency, as is, you know, "Good luck to my felonious former national security adviser." It's just -- I thought Comey gave us a good reminder of when it's important to be outraged, which is often.

CAMEROTA: We have that moment. Let's listen to what James Comey said yesterday to Republicans.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

People who know better, including Republican members of this body, have to have the courage to stand up and speak the truth. Not be cowed by mean tweets or fear of their base. There is a truth, and they 'e not telling it. Their silence is shameful.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Nia, how's that going over on Capitol Hill?

NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: You know, listen, Comey doesn't have a lot of fans on Capitol Hill. Whether you're a Democrat or Republican, you have a reason to not necessarily like Jim Comey, particularly, you know, him getting up -- he was obviously called there by Republicans; and there he is scolding Republicans on their turf.

It is fascinating that we haven't seen anyone do this kind of thing: talk about the FBI, defend the FBI. We've seen the president, obviously, rip into the FBI over and over and over again.

And to have him there, I think, and speak out for the FBI -- Christopher Wray obviously hasn't really done that consistently -- he has at times. But I thought it was a powerful moment. Whether it will matter to Republicans, doubtful. We'll just have to see going forward. We obviously saw the White House respond pretty disparagingly about Jim Comey, Sarah Huckabee Sanders basically saying, "Good riddance" to Jim Comey.

BERMAN: It's interesting. Along the lines of false accusations against the FBI, this document, the 302, which you've been looking at all morning, Alisyn, you know, there have been those who suggest that the FBI somehow trapped Michael Flynn into lying.

But if you read this, Joe, again and again and again ,the FBI seemed to be giving Michael Flynn the chance to tell the truth. They showed him the road to the truth again and again; and he didn't take it. CAMEROTA: And they weren't gotcha questions. When you read it, it's

like so straightforward, the questions they're asking him. "Did you meet with Ambassador Kislyak on this date?"

JOE LOCKHART, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, they knew they were going in and talking to a sophisticated guy. Michael Flynn ran the Defense Intelligence Agency, and he had every reason to know that the people asking the questions already knew the answers. And it reads like they're saying, "Do you really want to say that?"

But the narrative coming from the White House -- and this is why the president was wishing good luck to Flynn this morning -- is he's a victim, not a criminal. We've got to remember: he's the criminal here, not the victim.

And this idea that somehow two agents would come into the White House, and it was routine and he didn't know -- is ridiculous. You know, I never -- I sat a couple times with FBI agents at the White House; and I had a White House lawyer with me at every time.

[07:05:11] Now, if it was a meeting in the situation room, and they were doing counterterrorism, senior members of the FBI would come over. But when two agents come over and say, "We have questions for you," it's not about the weather or what's going on in Yemen. So there's no way Michael Flynn was sandbagged.

But it goes to their narrative. Trump has to say this. He has to make -- you know, he has to have -- surround himself with other victims.

CAMEROTA: I think it's interesting to read a little excerpt of the 302. Why keep it all to ourselves? And so I just think that for people at home to understand what's in there.

So here it is, Jeffrey. "The interview agents asked Flynn if he recalled any conversation with Kislyak in which the expulsions were discussed of Russians where Flynn might have encouraged Kislyak not to escalate the situation, to keep the Russian response reciprocal, or not engage in a 'tit-for-tat.' Flynn responded, 'Not really. I don't remember. It wasn't, "Don't do anything."'"

So, in other words, he's saying he didn't direct Kislyak to do anything about sanctions.

TOOBIN: Well, I mean, what's remarkable about that exchange is that you can almost see the agent reading the intercept of what the conversation was. And he's almost like begging Flynn: "We know you said this. Will you please acknowledge that you said this?" And Flynn is either too stupid or too arrogant or too something to see what's going on; and he just lies.

Now, what remains mysterious is why is he lying?

BERMAN: We don't know.

TOOBIN: And, you know, it goes to the larger question of the Russian investigation. Why are so many people affiliated with Trump lying about Russia? In this case, you know, other than simply just bullheadedness or reluctance to acknowledge that you were negotiating perhaps before you should have been with the Russians. It's baffling.

BERMAN: Could he tell us at sentencing? Will Michael Flynn get a chance to speak at sentencing? Could he talk about why he lied? Or could he say something that would make the president happy?

TOOBIN: Well, look, you know, his sentencing guidelines are zero to six months, and he cooperated. In those circumstances, almost always the person gets no jail time.

If I'm his lawyer I'm telling him, "Just shut up and say you're sorry. Don't make waves. Don't try to, you know, explain the situation." He's almost certainly not going to get jail time. So don't make it more complicated than it has to be. Whether he follows that advice, I'm not his lawyer. I don't know.

CAMEROTA: At 11 a.m. what might we hear today? How does this scenario play out?

TOOBIN: Well, he might explain why he felt compelled to lie and why he said what he said. Frankly, I doubt it, because I think, you know --

CAMEROTA: Less is more.

TOOBIN: Less is more from his perspective, but, you know, talk about his service to the country, the -- which is considerable. But as for a broader explanation of the political context, I doubt we're going to hear much of that.

LOCKHART: But I don't think we're going to get what people really want to know, which is what else does he know and what else has he told Mueller? That's really the -- the mystery.

What happened in those -- all those hours and all those interviews? And what did he give him that Mueller was anxious to tell the court, "He gave us what we needed. He was helpful. He shouldn't go to jail"?

TOOBIN: We do know yesterday two of his associates were indicted in Virginia in a non-Mueller case in connection with lobbying with regard to Turkey. So presumably, he helped with that case, but whether he helped with anything related to the Russia investigation, we don't know at this point. I'm sorry. Did I --

HENDERSON: No, I think that's right. And Trump certainly doesn't know, either. I mean, in some of the court filings, obviously, you've seen Mueller say that this guy was incredibly helpful. And Donald Trump seems to be ignoring that at this point in keeping Mike Flynn close in terms of the way he talks about him, wishing him luck today.

BERMAN: That's what it seems like. It does seem like he's trying to keep him close for some reason. Look, we've been talking about this, is are there signs that the

president's supporters, or areas where the president usually seeks safe ground, are they starting to turn on the president? Well, one of those areas is FOX News. I mean, there's no safer place for the president than FOX News.

CAMEROTA: Yes, but I wouldn't say that there's a majority of voices that are pointing out what Judge Andrew Napolitano did.

BERMAN: That's what we want to play for you, Judge Andrew Napolitano. Explain who he is.

CAMEROTA: OK. So he is their legal analyst. He's been there --

TOOBIN: He's the Jeff Toobin of FOX.

CAMEROTA: Jeff Toobin of FOX.

TOOBIN: I love the judge. The judge is great.

CAMEROTA: We call him judge. We don't call you -- counselor?

TOOBIN: We call you "Yo, meat," is how I'm --

CAMEROTA: Wow.

TOOBIN: That's the official --

CAMEROTA: So it is striking when somebody who is part of the FOX family goes out on a limb. Well, off the reservation. And he said something that got a lot of attention yesterday. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[07:10:00] JUDGE ANDREW NAPOLITANO, FOX NEWS LEGAL ANALYST: There's ample evidence -- this doesn't require too much analysis -- to indict the president. The question is do they want to do it?

The DOJ has three opinions on this. Two say you can't indict a sitting president; one says you can. But all three address the problem of what do you do when the statute of limitations is about to expire? All three agree in that circumstance, you indict in secret, keep the indictment sealed, and release it the day he gets out of office. You can't let a person go scot-free because they happen to be in the White House.

SHEPARD SMITH, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: So he may be an already indicted co- conspirator?

NAPOLITANO: He -- that I don't know about, but it could be, because we don't know what's been sealed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Could already be indicted.

HENDERSON: Yes. Fascinating.

TOOBIN: The judge is a good guy and a good lawyer and a serious person; and that's also -- that's Shep Smith's show.

CAMEROTA: He would have said it --

HENDERSON: He's been on other shows.

TOOBIN: But that's like the journalism zone of the FOX network. And that's not prime time. Prime time is crazy night.

HENDERSON: But he's been on other shows, basically fact checking the president, fact checking Giuliani when Giuliani says this isn't a crime, you know, in terms of the campaign finance violation.

And, you know, it's fascinating. We know the president keeps his channel locked on FOX News. Sometimes he watches it in repeat. He obviously watches CNN, too. So to hear him consistent -- consistently go against the talking points of this White House is fascinating to see that on FOX News.

TOOBIN: It's just simply called telling the truth.

HENDERSON: But -- but it is FOX.

LOCKHART: I think this is the result of what started now almost ten days ago on that Friday with -- with the court filing. There are people like the judge, Andrew McCarthy is another big FOX person. And he has written an op-ed saying -- changing his tune and being critical of the president.

I think there's a lot of institutional people who realize they're still going to want to be able to talk in the post-Trump era, who are beginning to turn. And that's -- you know, it's one of those things where, you know, it starts as a trickle and could turn into a landslide.

I can't see Republicans doing it yet, but, you know, at some point, there's going to be intense pressure for all of the people who have been defending him as more and more comes out to take another look at this. And I think we saw that on FOX in the last couple days.

BERMAN: Joe Lockhart, Nia-Malika Henderson, Meat, thank you all for being with us this morning.

A new report in the Senate shows that Russian trolls took on a new target after the 2016 election using fake accounts on Facebook and Twitter. Russians unloaded on Robert Mueller.

"The Washington Post" broke this story overnight, and one of the reporters on that story, national technology correspondent for "The Post," Craig Timberg, joins us now.

And Craig, you had the scoop a day and a half ago about some of the reports on how vast and how many social media networks -- all of them -- were used by the Russians. And then late yesterday all of a sudden, this reporting on the fact that the Russians were going after or have been going after Robert Mueller. Lay it out for us.

CRAIG TIMBERG, NATIONAL TECHNOLOGY CORRESPONDENT, "THE WASHINGTON POST": We now have two new very strong reports from the Senate Intelligence Committee that just lay out in a much broader way than we've ever seen before exactly what the Russians were up to during, you know, 2014, 2015, 2016 and well into 2017. And it's startling in its detail. And there's more -- they took on almost everybody who they perceived to be Trump's enemies, including CNN.

BERMAN: And what's interesting to me is they go after Mueller, calling it a crackpot investigation and other things, in language that is not dissimilar to language the president uses, correct?

TIMBERG: True. You know, some of these researchers said to me, you know, more than a year ago now, "We have trouble now telling the difference between the Russian disinformation and American conservatives also on social media." The messaging just overlaps to an extraordinary degree.

BERMAN: So overlaps. Is there a chicken and egg notion about where it started?

TIMBERG: You know, I've gone down that rabbit hole to try to figure out, like, where certain things start and how they move around. And it's such a morass of messaging across platforms. Things are hidden; things are visible. You can't really tell. But you know, there's certainly a synergistic quality to it at this point.

BERMAN: So it's important, I think, to note that sometimes you can't tell. I'm not even sure it matters in this day and age where it started, if both sides are putting it out and doing it in concert.

TIMBERG: Look, as we and others have written in the congressional midterm elections, there's every reason to believe that the major source of disinformation on American politics was from Americans. A bit on the left. It looks like the research shows more on the right. But you know, the Russians aren't the only ones in this space. And a lot of people in this space are Americans who have learned how to use these same tools to spread disinformation.

BERMAN: What do we know about how much the Russians know about the American political system? And I ask that because of some of the reporting over the last two days, not just Robert Mueller, but in the targeting in the social media campaign: to suppress the African- American vote, to suppress the vote among young women, to maybe boost the vote for Jill Stein. You know, you don't have to be a genius to know that, but it does require some degree of sophistication about the U.S. system.

[07:15:00] TIMBERG: You know, from a kind of professional reserve, I've always sort of admired how sophisticated the Russian understanding of our political system and our political players is. I mean, I've read thousands and thousands of tweets and posts on Instagram and all that stuff, and man, they know us, in many ways, better than we know ourselves. And I think the people who put this campaign together, if they moved

to the United States they could definitely get jobs as political consultants here.

BERMAN: So these reports that you scooped or your put out, or one of them that you put out, for the Senate Intelligence Committee. Do you have the sense that the U.S. Congress is looking at these and taking them seriously? What has been the internal reaction?

TIMBERG: The Senate Intelligence Committee definitely is looking at them carefully and definitely is taking them seriously. I think we all know that there's a git partisan gridlock problem in Congress and in Washington more generally. So it's hard to know if that will come to anything that matters.

But, yes, they're focused. These reports have gotten everybody's attention.

BERMAN: All right. Craig Timberg for "The Washington Post." Two scoops in two days. I'm expecting a third within the next few hours. So get back to work. Appreciate it.

TIMBERG: My pleasure.

BERMAN: Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: All right. Republican senators say they have no idea what the plan is to avoid a government shutdown. Do Democrats? We speak to one next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:20:07] CAMEROTA: New details are emerging from a newly-released report on Russian meddling in the 2016 election. and we have learned that Russians did not stop after President Trump's win. An analysis shows that Russian trolls targeted Robert Mueller after he was named special counsel and a host of other things that you probably read on your social media accounts.

Joining us now is Democratic Senator Ben Cardin of Maryland. Senator Cardin is a member of the Foreign Relations Committee.

Senator, this -- the findings of this report are so chilling, because it turns out out that the Russian interference was so much deeper and more insidious even than we knew. And it's hard to see how any American was immune from this.

I mean, here are some of the things that they tried to inject toxicity into our world. I mean, not just the election. They aimed to increase support for Julian Assange. They aimed to erode support for Robert Mueller and James Comey. They specifically targeted African- Americans, really sowing discord in that community, trying to kind of gin up outrage. They pushed turnout depression, saying, "Stay home on election day. Your vote doesn't matter." They did all sorts of text to vote scams. They created confusion about voting rules. They diverted candidate support. They tried to suggest voting for a third party.

And it continues to this day. They're still doing it. I just don't know how anybody can trust, frankly, when they see a meme on their social media account now.

SEN. BEN CARDIN (D), MARYLAND: Well, Alisyn, the information that you're using is coming from the Senate Intelligence Committee. Earlier this year in January, I issued a report from the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, talking about Russia's asymmetric arsenal against democracies, not only here in the United States but around Europe.

And what Russia is doing is interfering in our system. And the tragedy is that this administration is not taking steps to protect us.

We know that Russia is going to be active. They feel more comfortable in supporting the Trump policies and the Trump institutions. And we need to protect ourselves from foreign interference. And this administration was very late to even acknowledging that Russia was involved.

CAMEROTA: Yes, so --

CARDIN: We need to take steps to protect ourselves.

CAMEROTA: Right. So what's the answer? If you can't count on the Trump administration -- and evidence proves that you can't -- how are people supposed to know when they're reading -- they're on social media, if they are dealing with a real person or if they're dealing with a troll? What's Congress doing? What are the rest of us supposed to be doing?

CARDIN: What we've seen in Europe that they have taken action against social media platforms for disclosure and accountability. We have not taken adequate steps here in the United States to require social media platforms to know who they're dealing with and to make sure the public is aware where this information is coming from.

CAMEROTA: Here's just -- I just want to put it up so people can recognize these things. OK? I think it really is going to be up to individual people to now be able to spot something that just doesn't feel right.

I mean, so here -- this is all about Mueller, right? So they say that Robert Mueller was, you know, trying to side with radical Islamic groups; and it just doesn't wash. I mean, it's just made up out of thin air.

And then they have all sorts of stuff about how James Comey is a dirty cop, and they have all of this kind of Hollywood imagery. There's one of Hillary Clinton here that Russian trolls put out that say that black college students are not excited about this election; they think Hillary is a liar. None of this turns out to be true, but when you see it, you know, on your Facebook feed you think for a minute, "Oh, I didn't know that. Wow, that's interesting." But it's not true. It's just stunning, this stuff. And I think it's

really a big responsibility that people are going to have to educate themselves, since they're still doing it to this day.

CARDIN: Well, misinformation is a tool that's used by Russia. They use it against their own citizens in order to keep popular support for the government. Misinformation is a tool. They're using it in Russia. They're using it in Europe. They're using it in the United States. And we need to defend ourselves against this foreign attack.

CAMEROTA: OK, government shutdown. Is the government shutting down on Friday? Do you see any way to avoid it?

CARDIN: It makes no sense for government to shut down. First of all, the issue we're talking about is border security. Democrats and Republicans in the Senate have reached an agreement on border security that would give the president another $1.6 billion for border security but just not a wall; because a wall makes no sense at all.

If the president can't go along with that, we have another way to keep government open. It's called a continuing resolution where we keep government open as we negotiate our differences. In either case, there's no reason at all for a government shutdown, unless the president not only wants a shutdown, but demands a shutdown.

CAMEROTA: So what's Mitch McConnell doing today about it?

CARDIN: Mitch McConnell is trying to find a way in which we can avoid this. He does not want a government shutdown. I'm convinced about that. But will he take on President Trump? That's going to be the issue.

[07:25:05] We have the votes in the Senate. We have the votes in the House. Is he willing to take on the president and say, "No, it makes no sense to close government. Let's pass at least a continuing resolution in order we make sure the government stays open past Friday"?

CAMEROTA: I want to ask you about something that we've heard so much about in terms of a bipartisan approach and something that you've supported; and that's this criminal justice reform.

That seems like it's going full steam ahead. That seems like it's going to pass. That seems like something that the president, since he has supported it, will sign, but of course, it has its detractors.

So Senator Tom Cotton has said here, "With respect to my conservative friends and colleagues, they have jumped on the bandwagon too soon. A number of serious felonies, including violent crimes, are still eligible for early release in the version of the bill the Senate will vote on in a matter of days."

He doesn't like it. There are others: Senator Kennedy we've had on has issues with it. What is your message to those Republican colleagues of yours? CARDIN: Well, this is modest reform that's long overdue. The

Judiciary Committee held hearings on it. It's bipartisan. It takes nonviolent offenders, gives them an opportunity, a second chance. All of us in life have had a second chance.

So it really is sensible sentencing reform, and it will pass, I think, the Senate this week and the House, be signed by the president. It's about time that we move forward with reforming a criminal justice system that needs change.

CAMEROTA: Senator Dick Durbin, Democrat, gives Jared Kushner most of the credit for making this happen. This was something that had been stalled, as you know, in Congress for a long time. Democrats had wanted it to happen, and then Jared Kushner came to town. Do you give him the credit for moving this to the point it is today?

CARDIN: I give the Trump administration credit for moving it through the House and Senate. Remember, the House and Senate are controlled by Republicans these days. To pass a prison reform or sentencing reform in a Republican-controlled Congress is unusual, and it would not have happened without the support of the White House, which has been -- Jared Kushner has certainly been the key person on this.

CAMEROTA: Senator Ben Cardin, thank you very much for giving us an update on all of these things this morning.

CARDIN: Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: John.

BERMAN: So it is a case getting the attention of a president, a one- time war hero facing a murder charge for killing a suspected Taliban bomb maker. Up next, his family's message for President Trump.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)