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New Day

Government Shutdown Looms as President Trump Refuses to Sign Appropriations Bill with No Border Wall Funding; James Mattis Resigns as U.S. Secretary of Defense; Interview with Democratic Senator Chris Coons of Delaware. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired December 21, 2018 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[08:00:00] JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: NEW DAY Continue right now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For Secretary Mattis, who has never been known to quit anything, this was the breaking point.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: His decision to resign is virtually our worst nightmare.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The president is entitled to a secretary of defense that shares his worldview.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a message to the president that says I'm out and you're dead wrong.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I have made my position very clear. Any measure that funds the government must include border security.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm glad that the president won't sign the continuing resolution.

CHUCK SCHUMER, (D) SENATE MINORITY LEADER: The Trump temper tantrum will shut down the government, but it will not get him his wall.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is NEW DAY with Alisyn Camerota on John Berman.

BERMAN: Good morning and welcome to your New Day. It is Friday, December 21th, 8:00 in the east, as Matt Viser of the "Washington Post" notes, the darkest day of the year, and I don't think he's just talking about sunlight. There is a message being sent by U.S. allies, active duty servicemembers, even Republican lawmakers this morning. They are saying America is less safe.

The reaction to the resignation of Defense Secretary James Mattis cannot be overstated. On the surface General Mattis quit over the president's decision to pull U.S. troops over Syria and his plan to withdraw half the U.S. forces in Afghanistan. But the resignation letter from James Mattis is more of a rejection of Trumpism in its totality. The general made clear he will not work alongside a president he thinks is too ungrateful to U.S. allies and too cozy with its adversaries.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: And as if that's not enough, a partial government shutdown is less than 16 hours away now. The president now, this morning, insists he will not sign any spending bill that does include funding for his border wall. That sent the House scrambling to pass a bill with border wall funding included but the measure appears to be dead on arrival in the Senate. Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell is miffed. He plans to schedule a vote today to begin debate on the House bill. But unless someone blinks, about 800,000 government workers will go without paychecks in these days before Christmas.

So let's begin with CNN's Barbara Starr. She is live for us at the Pentagon. And Barbara, you have all sorts of really interesting reporting about what happened behind the scenes with General Mattis.

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Good morning to both of you this morning. The Mattis decision to resign is reverberating across world capitals. Where we are this morning, there is no way around it. The secretary of defense for the strongest, most powerful military the world has ever known has said he can no longer support the commander in chief of that powerful military.

James Mattis went to the White House yesterday about 3:00 to meet with President Trump. An official directly familiar with the events of that 45-minute meeting with the president says President Trump was surprised that Mattis was resigning. Mattis had his letter already written in hand. He did not anticipate there would be anything the president would say that would change his mind, that he would resign.

We are told by this official that it had been building for some time, but indeed the final straw was the president's decision to get U.S. troops out of Syria. Mattis was deeply, deeply upset at this, because it would mean he was leaving the Kurdish forces that he'd sworn to protect that U.S. troops were helping to a potential bloodbath. And Jim Mattis, 40 years in the U.S. military, doesn't leave his friends behind on the battlefield, compounded by troops coming out of Afghanistan, the same scenario, leaving Afghan forces abandoned.

What else had happened? One of the things we now know is his recommendation and General Dunford, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs recommendation for a new chairman had been rejected by the president. They wanted General David Goldfein, the current head of the Air Force. Mr. Trump selected instead the head of the Army, General Mark Milley.

Where we are this morning that is so important is the reaction of the rank and file of the U.S. military. Typically, they don't pay a lot of attention to politics, we are told. But I want to tell you, when I came into the Pentagon at an early hour this morning, the first five military people I saw in the hallway all expressed their dismay, their concern, and their uncertainty about what lies ahead. And the bottom line for the U.S. military, when they feel uncertainty, there is nothing more serious than that. John, Alisyn? BERMAN: I have got to tell you, Barbara Starr at the Pentagon, I've

heard the exact same thing from active duty servicemembers who normally don't weigh in on this, who normally keep a degree of separation. Not this time, not at all.

Joining us now, CNN's Abby Phillip and John Avlon, and national correspondent for "Bloomberg Businessweek" Josh Green. Josh, a few minutes ago we talked to Jim Banks, a Republican from Indiana on the Armed Services Committee, a big supporter of President Trump, extremely critical of the withdrawal of U.S. troops in Syria, the plans in Afghanistan, extremely unsettled by the departure of James Mattis.

[08:05:04] And that dynamic, where Republican supporters of President Trump are shaken, that to me is one of the most interesting and long- lasting impacts of what the president has done.

JOSHUA GREEN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I think that's right. I was speaking to a former White House official last night after the Mattis news broke who told me Trump is in a death spiral. With Mattis leaving, with the adults gone, there are no guardrails on this investigation. You have investigations. You have huge geostrategic questions now. And of course, you have a stock market that's in collapse. All of these things happening as a government shutdown looms a few hours from now, and a new Democratic Congress coming in. Every sign you look at points in a bad direction for Trump and for Republicans. And I think for the first time they're realizing that there's no clear means by which things are going to get better.

CAMEROTA: So John, I guess you can't run the United States like your family business. I guess that some days it is revealed that acting in a unilateral way, an impetuous way, does have really vast consequences for people like the rank and file, as Barbara Starr is talking about, for James Mattis, who because of his principles had to quit. I guess that the fantasy of, well, we're going to run this like a business and who is going to do that better than Donald Trump, some days you see the problem with that thinking.

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: The problem couldn't be more stark, and it goes beyond the idea that you can run government like a business. The problem is you have got someone in the Oval Office who thinks about everything through the prism of self-interest, when that office really requires someone who can transcend self- interest and think about the national interest, think about international responsibility, think about the consequences of their actions, and also the sense of continuity with the history of our constitutional republic, which this president does not.

These things matter. That's why studying history matters. And this president's determined ignorance and egotism leads to a crisis of confidence like this. And it is all self-inflicted. That is important to understand. America is strong. The culture of our country didn't change on Election Day. But this president is creating compounding self-inflicted crises that are now being felt throughout our government, throughout our economy, and the world order that Americans of different generations have done so much to secure. There is nothing more serious than that.

BERMAN: Abby, I was really curious what would happen when the president woke up this morning and saw the worldwide reaction to the letter that James Mattis wrote.

CAMEROTA: And what did I predict would happen?

BERMAN: What did you predict?

CAMEROTA: He would tweet.

BERMAN: He has, in fact, tweeted. You will also breath air and drink water. That's not going out on a limb.

CAMEROTA: I also predicted that.

BERMAN: The president had tweeted. But Abby, it's interesting, he's not addressing the James Mattis situation at all, not even a little bit of Twitter. He's talking about the shutdown and domestic politics. Will he be able to continue that throughout the day? Is that what he's going to try to do, you think, look over here, not at the fact that U.S. allies and Republicans on Capitol Hill right now feel that the world is less safe?

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. I think he's doing exactly what we would expect him to do, which is focus on the base, focus on the thing that he thinks is going to ingratiate him the most with the people that he cares about the most. That is a strategy for today. It's probably not a strategy for the next several months.

And as josh pointed out, this White House is entering into one of the most if not the most perilous periods that it has experienced so far. Remember, the president just lost his chief of staff, had trouble finding someone who would replace him, has named someone an acting chief of staff hanging open the possibility that he needs someone to fill that role on a permanent basis. He now has to replace a secretary of defense. He has already replaced an attorney general who is going in to a contentious confirmation hearing.

This is a White House that is facing a lot of headwinds and a president who is dealing with one crisis at a time, not in any strategic way, but just simply trying to get through the day. For right now, he feels like he's gotten the major victory with House Republicans last night, but the Senate is going to be a huge, huge problem. And President Trump is trying to get Mitch McConnell to end the filibuster to make this easier for him in the moment, which could potentially create even more problems for him when he has a House controlled by Democrats in January.

Again, there is no strategy here. There is just an effort to get through this latest thing. And I think what the Jim Mattis departure really highlights is that Republicans on the Hill are starting to finally worry about this. I think foreign policy has been kind of like the last resort here for Republicans. And now they feel like there is no -- there are no guardrails there anymore. And I think we'll see more and more concern, more and more willingness to speak up about the broader issue of a lack of strategy from this White House, and, frankly, a lack of organization around the basic tenets of governance that has gone without comment from Republicans for the last two years. I think they are finally starting to pay attention, even though this has been going on for quite some time.

[08:10:11] CAMEROTA: So Josh, part of the chaos is that less than 16 hours from now the government will shut down unless there's some sort of compromise, unless Mitch McConnell can pull some sort of rabbit out of his hat. And just let's cast our memories back. I really don't know if it was last week or Monday, two weeks ago, I'm told, when the president sat down with Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi, and for a split second he took responsibility. He issued the ultimatum, if there's no border wall, I'm willing to take the responsibility for the shutdown. Let's remind people of that moment in time.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHUCK SCHUMER, (D) SENATE MINORITY LEADER: We disagree.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I am proud to shut down the government for border security, Chuck, because the people of this country don't want criminals and people that have lots of problems and drugs pouring into our country. I will take that mantle of shutting down, and I will shut it down for border security.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: That moment of responsibility did not last. And this morning, the president is rebranding. We should have a sound effect for a rebranding alert. Here it is. "Senate Mitch McConnell should fight for the wall as border security as hard as he fought for anything. He will need Democrat votes. But as shown in the House, good things happen. If enough Democrats don't vote, it will be a Democrat shutdown."

BERMAN: That's not what he said.

CAMEROTA: "House Republican were great yesterday."

BERMAN: He didn't say "Democrat shutdown."

CAMEROTA: No. Then he said he was going to take responsibility, but something has changed, strangely, Josh.

GREEN: What's changed is the ramifications of that statement are becoming clear. In less than 16 hours, the government is going to shut down. So Trump is doing what he characteristically does when he's under pressure. He's throwing the hot potato to Mitch McConnell and trying to absolve himself of blame.

I think the bigger problem here is that Trump, instead of listening to his generals, has been listening to right wing media personalities. And by following their strategy and their admonition that he has to stand tough on the wall, what they have done is driven him into a box canyon. There is no clear exit strategy for Trump and Republicans, even if the government does shut down. So as John and Abby have said, he seems to be governing by impulse moment to moment without any larger thought to where this is going to lead and how he's going to get out of it.

AVLON: And look, first of all, if we are going to have a rebranding alert, it should just be jazz hands thrown up on the screen. I'll make that suggestion from a production standpoint. But look, what the president is doing here, listening to right wing media, the fundamentally problem is right wing media's responsibility is to get ratings. It doesn't have the responsibility of governing. And so when the president listens to them in topsy-turvy land, we get things like this. And we are hours away from a Christmas shutdown brought by a Republican president with a Republican Congress. That itself is bizarro-world. So as he contemplates the situation he's gotten in and the fact that there is no strategy, it reminds me of his nemesis John McCain's favorite joke, which was it's always darkest moments just before it goes completely black. That's the situation in the White House right now, folks. The problem is it's not just about him. It's about all of us.

BERMAN: I have to say, he is putting Mitch McConnell on the spot and in the bind. He is saying Mitch McConnell should use the nuclear option to try to pass this budget with 50 votes. McConnell is not going to do that. Mitch McConnell has made clear he will not do that. This is what the president just said on Twitter for those who want to know.

CAMEROTA: Should I do jazz hands here?

BERMAN: Or spirit fingers, or both. The nuclear option, so people know about it, is that funding bills like this require 60 votes in the Senate by Senate rules. The president is suggesting they change those rules to pass it with 50. Mitch McConnell doesn't want to do that because Mitch McConnell has a long view.

CAMEROTA: And memory.

BERMAN: And memory of what happens in the Senate. He is also, Mitch McConnell, is miffed is the way you put it, miffed at the president right now to say the least. He's really upset about the shutdown and how this has gone out. He's really upset about James Mattis. He put out a blistering statement in Mitch McConnell terms for the resignation of Mattis and the president's role in that, Josh. So I just wonder what will McConnell do today? How far out on a limb will McConnell go for the president?

GREEN: Well, we'll see. We have been told to expect a vote around noon today. And the presumption is that vote is going to fail. And when it does, it is likely that the government shuts down. And then it becomes a question of how much pressure comes on Trump and the government to reopen. The issue facing Trump really, again, I was speaking to a White House official last night who said half in jest, but not really, that this shut down is keeping Trump away from his golf course at Mar-a-Lago. He was supposed to leave on a 16-day vacation, and he is not going to be happy sitting in the White House not golfing, watching the bad coverage on television that is going to ensue when the government shut downs. So we don't know if he's going to be a long shutdown, if it's going to be a short shutdown, or how Mitch McConnell is going to get out of it.

CAMEROTA: When do you think, Abby, the president is going to leave the White House for Mar-a-Lago?

[08:15:00] PHILLIP: I know you think, Alisyn, that he's going to go anyway, but I think Josh is right about this. First of all, Republicans on the Hill are basically telling the president you can't ditch us here in Washington with a government shut down and go in a 16-day vacation. So, the White House has committed he will stay here and Sara Sanders basically reiterated that this morning, but it is a real question. How long is he going to want to sit in the White House to sort of wringing his hands about the situations, not being able to go where he wants to go because the government is shutdown?

He's declared this morning that it's going to be shutdown for a long time. But again, there are going to be parts of this government where people are working on furlough, parts of Homeland Security ironically where people will be working on furlough. So, it can't go on forever.

Mitch McConnell is no fan of shutdowns. He understands the politics of this are bad. He also understands that the bad politics of ending the filibuster are not only bad in the long term, they're bad in the near term. The filibuster is going to help protect him from having to pass Democratic legislation when Nancy Pelosi takes over in January.

So, the president is in a bind here. I'm not sure what McConnell is going to do, but I think as Josh said, everyone is expecting that vote, which only requires 50 votes at noon today to fail.

(CROSSTALK)

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Yes.

PHILLIP: Well, they don't think it's going to go forward. So that's going to basically put the president back at square one.

CAMEROTA: OK. As we're never supposed to say, time will tell.

Abby, Josh, John, thank you very much.

Many senators are already back home for the holidays, but with this critical vote to prevent the shut down today, are they going to head back to Washington? We're going to ask one of them, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:20:11] CAMEROTA: Washington is still reeling this morning between Defense Secretary James Mattis' resignation and this looming partial government shutdown.

Joining us now to talk about all of it, we have Democratic Senator Chris Coons of Delaware. He is on the foreign relations, judiciary, appropriations and ethics committee.

You're a busy man, Senator. We appreciate you taking the time. We should note you are in Wilmington, Delaware. What train are you getting on to haul your butt back to the beltway to

vote today on this?

SEN. CHRIS COONS (D-DE), JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: I'm hoping I will be on the 8:34. But if we have a longer conversation, I will be on the 8:51.

CAMEROTA: OK. I will try to keep it snappy in that case.

So what's happening? I mean, let's just start there. What's happening with this government shutdown? Is the government going to shut down at midnight tonight? Is there anything that could any way in the Senate that this could be averted?

COONS: Well, frankly, the president could indicate once again that he's willing to sign the bill that we have already passed through the Senate. The Senate passed a bill we worked on very hard in a bipartisan way all year that includes $1.6 billion in additional investments in border security but doesn't include $5 billion for a border wall.

That strikes me as a small difference that is not worth shutting down the government over. And by the way, let me remind you, making 40,000 federal law enforcement officers, 54,000 Customs and Border Patrol agents and officers work over the holiday without pay as a result. I don't think this is a wise or necessary outcome.

The federal government -- the president's administration hasn't yet spent the $1.3 billion we appropriated for border security last year.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

COONS: I think this is a fight more over message and the president trying to fulfill a campaign promise rather substance.

Alisyn, I'm old enough to remember when Mexico was going to pay for this wall. And in a series of hearings and meetings with Homeland Security and Customs and Border Patrol leaders, I'm convinced that building a big concrete wall isn't a wise investment, but we should invest more in border security. There's a way to do this if we can simply responsibly compromise.

Let me, Alisyn, remind you, later this morning, the president is going to sign a big bipartisan criminal justice bill. Just on Wednesday, we were celebrating this big, positive step forward that Republicans and Democrats agree on.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

COONS: It was only when the president got up yesterday morning and listened to far right wing media that he changed his mind abruptly and decided he'd careen back towards a shutdown I think frankly to change the news from his terrible, tragic and mistaken decision to withdraw our troops in Syria and hand that country to Iranians, the Russians and to the murderous regime of Bashar al-Assad. CAMEROTA: And I do want to get to that in a moment, but first, just

in terms of this shutdown, a couple more points. You are suggesting the president revert to 24 hours ago where he seemed willing to sign that continuing resolution to February 8th to keep that open. A lot has changed, as you pointed out, in the past 24 hours. He apparently had a conversation with Rush Limbaugh. That's one of the things that changed his mind and he now seems in no mood to compromise.

Here's what he's tweeting this morning. He wants Mitch McConnell to end the filibuster rule that requires 60 votes. So, he wants it to just be a bare majority so that they can get this passed.

Do you think Mitch McConnell is considering that?

COONS: I certainly hope not. Leader McConnell understands the profound and changing impact that it would have on the functioning of the United States Senate to make us just like the House, to get rid of the one most important rule that requires compromise, requires working across the aisle to get anything significant done.

And I respect the fact that Majority Leader McConnell has refused the president's repeated tweets and speeches demanding that he tear down the one last critical remaining element of how we govern ourselves in the Senate just so that the president could achieve some short-term goal.

Let me just say this. The two folks who've been tweeting in support of President Trump's decision in Syria, Vladimir Putin and Rand Paul, don't strike me as the right folks to listen to about our national security. And listening to Rush Limbaugh and making decisions about governance doesn't strike me as a terrific idea either.

Our founders designed a country that runs best when we work across the aisle and compromise. And the fact that the president is urging Mitch McConnell to tear up the last thing that forces to compromise in the Senate is not a good sign.

CAMEROTA: Here's an interesting suggestion. It came up this morning on NEW DAY. We had Joe Lockhart on. He had a suggestion for how to compromise. I just want to bounce it off with you.

He suggested that Democrats cough up more money for the president's border wall or slats, I guess as we're now calling it in the rebranding effort, in exchange for protection for Robert Mueller.

[08:25:11] What do you think?

COONS: Look, we have offered up a broad bipartisan compromise I worked on with Senator McCain and Senator Collins earlier in this Congress that would have given a significant investment in border security over a decade in exchange for a path to citizenship for Dreamers and fixing a number of other challenges in our immigration system. I have been willing to work across the aisle on that compromise. I'm continuing to negotiate on an immigration compromise.

It is an interesting idea. I am very concerned about Robert Mueller, particularly given Matthew Whitaker, the acting attorney general's refusal to listen to the advice of the professional ethics advisers in the Department of Justice. You know, I personally don't think we need to throw another $5 billion into the border wall through a slush fund without congressional oversight, but I am willing to invest more in border security.

So I don't think the gap is that big, and the idea of getting the bill that Senator Flake and I have gone on the floor now three times to demand a vote on, getting that bill passed would be a significant step forward in my view.

CAMEROTA: First of all, senator, the use of the new jazz hands mandate that we have here well played. Very nice. Thank you. You used it perfectly.

OK. Let's talk about Secretary Mattis. What changes? What will change without Secretary Mattis now at the help at the Defense Department? Because as you know he was often called the last adult in the room.

COONS: With General Mattis, a decorated and seasoned marine corps general with significant combat leadership experience was someone who gave reassurance to our allies, clear eyed leadership to our armed forces, critically clear advice to our president who has no previous military or public service -- public sector service experience, the first president in our history without that experience. And frankly more than anything, Secretary Mattis, General Mattis was very clear about the very real threat posed to our democracy and our alliances by both Russia and potentially by China.

In the absence of that advice, I'm very concerned about what President Trump's America first world view might lead him to do. I think it was a tragic error to withdraw our troops from Syria. I pray our president will reconsider. And what I'm hearing he is considering doing in Afghanistan is alarming.

If he has not consulted with our close allies, who served alongside us and sacrificed over 17 years, I will remind you, Alisyn, 1,000 NATO soldiers have died in Afghanistan. If the president is abrupt and flawed in his decision-making in Afghanistan as he seems to have been about Syria, not consulting our allies, not consulting senior leaders in Congress, I think the consequences for our alliances as well as our security would be significant.

I urge everybody watching to read Secretary Mattis' resignation better. I had a lump in my throat reading it last night. This is a chilling moment. I think it will be difficult for President Trump to secure the service of a comparably skilled, seasoned and respected leader in national security.

Democrats and Republicans may have policy differences, but all of us want our nation to be secure. And that means relying on our alliances and having a clear eyed view over our adversaries. Secretary Mattis certainly put that first and foremost in his incredible dedicated service to our nation. I am very concerned that President Trump will begin working on his worst instincts in foreign policy and national security without the guiding hand of Secretary Mattis at the helm.

CAMEROTA: Senator Chris Coons, thank you very much for being here. We look very forward to seeing what you all come up with at about noon today. Thank you.

COONS: Thank you, Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: John?

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: I want to keep the camera on him to see if he makes the 8:34 train. He's got six minutes to get there. Run, senator.

All right. A new report shows veteran suicides, they are on the rise. Is the V.A. doing enough to manage this crisis? The call for action by the leader of one veterans group, that's next.

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