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New Day

Mattis Quits, Says Views Aren't "Aligned" With President Trump; CNN Reality Check: A History Of High-Profile White House Breaks; Coach Shares Emotional Moment After Championship; House Passes Spending Bill With $5 Billion For Trump's Border Wall. Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired December 24, 2018 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:33:05] ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Upheaval in Washington, a tailspin -- these are just some of the headlines that President Trump wakes up to this morning as Defense Sec. James Mattis resigns over his disputes with the president and lawmakers begin the countdown to a shutdown tonight.

So joining us now is acclaimed presidential historian Doris Kearns Goodwin, author of "The New York Times" bestseller, "Leadership in Turbulent Times." Doris, you picked the right title.

DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN, PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN, AUTHOR, "LEADERSHIP IN TURBULENT TIMES": I'm afraid so.

CAMEROTA: I'm afraid you did.

OK, so let's start with Defense Sec. Mattis resigning in protest over the president making a unilateral and sudden decision, without consulting the Pentagon, about withdrawing troops from Syria and Afghanistan.

Give us the historical context for this, if there is one.

GOODWIN: Oh, I think the most important thing is that what his resignation letter suggests is that there's been a lack of a stable team that's been operating in these last months. What you need for presidents, especially in turbulent times, are teams that can debate decisions, that can really listen to one another. That can come to a rational decision at the end and hopefully come to some consensus.

When I think about Abraham Lincoln -- that long debate he had about the Emancipation Proclamation -- some members of his cabinet didn't agree. But by the end of the long debate, they respected him so much they kept their disagreement private.

So here you have James Mattis not even really consulted. You have a feeling in these last years many other people blindsided by this decision because President Trump will say I have an organization -- it is myself. I have the best instincts on foreign policy. I have a very big brain. No president, especially in times of crisis, can operate without a stable team -- sharing credit with that team, shouldering blame for that team, and getting respect from that team. And that team has disintegrated one by one by one over these last months and this is a big loss for him to lose Gen. Mattis.

CAMEROTA: Here's a portion of Gen. Mattis' letter and I want to read it to you because of what you said. He chose to make this public. He didn't have to, OK? So he wants to get this message out.

[07:35:03] Here is a portion. "While the U.S. remains the indispensable nation in the free world, we cannot protect our interests or serve that role effectively without maintaining strong alliances and showing respect to those allies."

That is a message that was so important to him Doris, that he put it in a letter and he signed his name to it.

Have we seen this ever before?

GOODWIN: Well, not quite in this way with so many people, I think, feeling a sense that the team is not working together and that the alliances which are formed ever since World War II are the stability of our foreign policy have been undermined one by one by President Trump.

And I think Gen. Mattis is putting that out as a marker for other people coming in to make sure this is what you're going to have to do to try and persuade him that he's wrong about losing these alliances. That you can't operate alone. You cannot do foreign policy on instinct.

And he's an honorable man with dignity so he must have felt it very strongly to have put these views out. I think it's a very hopeful thing that he did so.

It's better to leave that way than to leave under some suspicion or to be fired by Twitter, and so many of the other people have and then have not spoken out in the same way. I think this is a healthy sign that he's doing so.

CAMEROTA: But when you say helpful -- hopeful, I guess, what do you mean? For the country or for his own future?

GOODWIN: No, I mean it's hopeful for the dialogue right now. I think it's important for the country to understand this kind of decision- making that is not going on in Washington.

I mean, new people are going to have to be coming into this White House. It's the most honorable thing in the world to work in the White House.

And you worry now that people knowing what chaos is in this decision- making structure, knowing that they might be fired by a tweet, knowing that they might be called a name, as Rex Tillerson was -- "dumb as a rock" or Jeff Sessions, "weak." You need to respect that team because they're working with you.

This is not easy -- these jobs -- and the only way that pressure can be relieved is by working collaboratively and knowing you've got a group of people who are holding your back and you're preparing them and you're helping them.

I mean, when people share credit when the decision is good, that gives you an upward movement. When you shoulder blame for them, then that allows you to have responsibility. None of those normal emotional intelligence operations have happened during this team.

And I don't know where we're going to get it from unless at some point there's a glimmer of hope that President Trump realizes it's not working the way it is, and it's supposed to be, and begins to look for a team that can work with him and not simply be doing this by himself.

CAMEROTA: Well, I mean, I think that the way he interprets it is that he needs a team of like-minded people. I mean, you, famously, of course, have written about Abraham Lincoln's team of rivals. That's not what President Trump wants.

For a while there he had a team of adults, as they were referred to and those are what you're talking about -- Gen. Mattis, McMaster, Kelly, Rex Tillerson was seen as that person. But they're all gone or soon to be gone.

And so, where does that leave the country?

GOODWIN: You know, I mean, I think it's all the more important for a president like Trump, who does not come in with military experience, with political experience, and really with a lot of leadership experience because his organization was him, in a certain sense -- the branded Mr. Trump -- to know that he needs experienced people around him.

That's certainly what Lincoln understood. That night he won the election he couldn't sleep.

He realized he'd only had four terms in the State Legislature, one term in Congress, the country was falling apart. He said I need the most experienced people by my side. They happened to be his rivals.

So were Chase and Bates. They all thought they should have been president instead of him.

People said you'll be a figurehead. How can you do that? He said it's more important that I have these people and he somehow had confidence in himself that he could bring them around. And sure enough, within the short period of time -- if they underestimated him at the start, they knew they were in the presence of an extraordinary leader.

And while they still disagreed on certain issues, their disagreements were contained within their inner circle because they became a family. And that's what you need if you're going to be in a time of crisis, in particular. CAMEROTA: Very quickly, Doris, have you ever seen a president -- for the president causing more chaos in the country than he's contained?

GOODWIN: I've seen presidents who've come into crisis and chaos, but I do think the exacerbation of that crisis -- I mean, James Buchanan exacerbated in the 1850s and it goes down in history as one of the worst presidents.

I mean, I've lived with these guys, I feel like, for a long time -- from the 1850s to the 1880s, to the 1920s, to the 1940s, to the 60s. And now -- and there's -- it's true when people say that this is unprecedented. It's something very different, except for the 1850s which ended up in the Civil War, and that's the last kind of outcome we want of this.

We've got a real sense of crisis in the country. The high partisanship is something we haven't seen since the 1850s. We need somebody to heal those divisions, not to exacerbate them and that's what we keep hoping for as a country.

And I still keep thinking we got through these worst times before. Somebody arose, the citizens arose and took responsibility.

[07:40:00] And the midterms show that long lines were waiting. Women came in who had never been in politics before, so they're still believing in politics as an honorable profession. That's what we need. More public servants coming into this situation with a sense of healing rather than exacerbating.

CAMEROTA: Doris Kearns Goodwin, thank you very much for all of your historical context. You have lived with a lot of guys. You're right.

GOODWIN: I'm afraid so, for a long period of time. The older I get, the more I live with them.

CAMEROTA: Thank you very much -- John.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Also (INAUDIBLE). Let's not do the 1950's -- 1850s thing again.

CAMEROTA: No.

BERMAN: We don't need the 1850s.

CAMEROTA: That --

BERMAN: All right.

The president says ISIS has been defeated in Syria, but what is the reality on the ground? We get a reality check, next.

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BERMAN: The resignation letter of Defense Sec. James Mattis made it clear he and President Trump, they're not on the same page. So, how rare are these kinds of major disagreements at high levels? Our senior political analyst John Avlon now with a reality check.

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: That's right, guys.

Remember this moment on the Trump campaign trail?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, THEN-CANDIDATE FOR PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I know more about ISIS than the generals do -- believe me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AVLON: That reminds me of the line, "often wrong, but never in doubt." And it's that kind of self-assurance in the face of facts and experience that led to Defense Sec. Mattis' resignation yesterday.

The last of the so-called axis of adults is leaving the building. The tipping point, the president's decision to withdraw from Syria despite the unanimous advice of the military brass.

[07:45:01] And in the announcement the president falsely stated that, quote, "We have defeated ISIS in Syria."

That's certainly not what this CNN footage from Syria, taken earlier this week, shows. It's not what our allies or our generals are seeing on the ground. Despite the strong progress we've made, this fight isn't over.

As one senior administration official told Jake Tapper, quote, "The president's decision-by-tweet will recklessly put American and allied lives in danger around the world, take the pressure off ISIS allowing them to reconstitute, and hand a strategic victory to our Syrian, Iranian, and Russian adversaries. It's a mistake of colossal proportions and the president fails to see how it will endanger our country."

A bipartisan group of six senators agreed, firing off a letter urging the president to reconsider. But instead, the president seems to have doubled down, again choosing to please Vladimir Putin over the Pentagon by mulling an over 50 percent drawdown in U.S. troops in Afghanistan.

Trump's isolationist impulse overturns a half-century of Republican internationalism dating back to Eisenhower, exemplified by Reagan and Bush 41.

And this vote of no confidence from Mattis represents a stark departure from our best traditions because such high-profile breaks with presidents over policy differences are very rare.

You've got to go back to Woodrow Wilson when Secretary of State Williams Jennings Bryan resigned over disagreements about getting into World War I. This wasn't a good fit between the isolationist populist and the progressive president. Fast-forward to Harry Truman and the so-called "Revolt of the Admirals," a rare public outcry from senior military men over Trump's (sic) attempts to slash defense budgets and emphasis nukes over the Navy.

As the Vietnam War raged, its architect, Defense Sec. McNamara handed in his resignation to President Johnson once he realized there was no way to escalate out of the quagmire he'd created.

Jimmy Carter's Secretary of State Cyrus Vance resigned over the president's decision to try a military rescue for U.S. hostages in Iran. Operation Eagle Claw failed. Eight service members died.

And, Carter eventually blamed his 1980 loss on it. So, Vance's resignation looked not just principled, but prescient.

And that's about it. It's been nearly 40 years since we've seen a resignation by a major cabinet figure over a policy difference with the president.

And, Mattis didn't simply resign over a tactical plan. His resignation was over a worldview, calling out Trump's alienation of our allies and embrace of our adversaries.

And all this should remind you that these are strange days. Now, Mattis joins this long list of Trump administration officials who have either run for the exits or been pushed out the door, demonstrating the radius of chaos emanating from this Oval Office.

And that's your reality check.

BERMAN: He resigned over a worldview. I think that is very important to note, John. Thank you very much.

All right, it was an emotional night in Texas as a high school coach -- football team won a championship for their ailing coach.

Andy Scholes has more in this morning's "Bleacher Report" -- Andy.

ANDY SCHOLES, CNN SPORTS CORRESPONDENT: Yes, good morning, John. This is such an emotional story. Really, a Christmas miracle.

Newton head coach W.T. Johnson -- he told his players in August that he probably wouldn't live to see the end of the season. Johnson had a double-lung transplant in 2015 and earlier this year doctors told him he had just eight months to live. Well, Johnson, not only still here, but he led Newton to a state title.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

W.T. JOHNSON, HEAD COACH, NEWTON HIGH SCHOOL, NEWTON, TEXAS: I've been given a great gift and people just don't understand that. The gift is I've been able to see how my life could affect people before I die.

And these guys -- I mean, they've touched my life and it's been a mutual thing. But I've been able to teach them a lesson that you don't get to see most times.

And I told them last night -- we talked about -- talked about wanting to win for me. This is their time. I've had my time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHOLES: And this is the second-straight championship for Newton, guys, and I'm sure it's one that that town and that school is never going to forget.

CAMEROTA: Oh my gosh, a double-lung transplant? Modern medicine is miraculous.

BERMAN: What an inspiration. Andy Scholes, thank you very, very much.

SCHOLES: All right.

CAMEROTA: All right. He served in Afghanistan and now he sits in Congress. So how does he feel about U.S. troops being pulled out? We talk to him, next.

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[07:53:46] BERMAN: A Defense official tells CNN the United States is planning to cut its military presence in Afghanistan in half, just like President Trump's decision to withdraw troops from Syria was reportedly a factor in Defense Sec. James Mattis -- his decision to resign.

Joining me now is Republican Congressman Jim Banks of Indiana. Congressman Banks served in Afghanistan and now sits on the House Armed Services Committee. Congressman, thanks so much for being with us.

I had an active duty service member tell me he was devastated by the resignation of James Mattis. What's your reaction?

REP. JIM BANKS (R-IN), MEMBER, HOUSE ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE: Well, I'm disappointed. I've served with Sec. Mattis over the past couple of years as a member of the Armed Services Committee. He's served this country tremendously well and America is safer today because of his leadership at the Pentagon.

I'm grateful that he's given the president a few months to make the transition and pick somebody different. I'm sure the president will find someone of the same caliber to replace Sec. Mattis and I will be waiting, somewhat impatiently, to see who that person will be.

BERMAN: Waiting impatiently.

Sec. Mattis, in his resignation letter -- which was extraordinary in that it did not offer any praise to President Trump on his way out the door -- suggested that he thought the president was too solicitous of U.S. enemies and not respectful enough of U.S. allies.

[07:55:00] Do you feel that way?

BANKS: Well, when Russia is praising us for pulling out of Syria, that deeply concerns me as well.

But, as Sec. Mattis' departure -- obviously, that is devastating news to our national security and to the Pentagon. A lot of leaders that I'm hearing from at the Pentagon who are disappointed.

But we'll look forward to this president picking someone of the same caliber. This president has made good decisions when it comes to national security figures in his administration before and I have a little doubt that he'll do that again.

BERMAN: You criticized the withdrawal of the U.S. troops from Syria. You know, you served in Afghanistan.

What is your reaction to the news, as both a veteran and a member of the Armed Services Committee, that the president wants to cut our troop presence in Afghanistan by half?

BANKS: Well, I hope that's not the case. I was in Afghanistan last month. I served there just a few years ago before being elected to Congress.

And when I went back last month it was clear that the threat in Afghanistan has evolved. The rise of ISIS-K in Afghanistan poses a much more serious threat than what we've seen there in many years since -- maybe even since 9/11.

So, a pullout of Afghanistan today would be a concession of defeat, not just to the Taliban, but it would be turning over the country to ISIS-K, which poses a much more significant threat to the homeland.

And that's why we have to remember why we're there to begin with. We're there, to begin with, to prevent another attack on American soil, like 9/11, and I'm more concerned today than ever before that ISIS-K poses that type of threat.

So I and other members of Congress, I'm sure, will call on this administration to rethink any strategy that would pull troops out of Afghanistan until the -- until the work there is done. It's clear that today, the work isn't done yet.

BERMAN: Just so I make sure I understand exactly what you said, you think if the United States reduces its troop presence in Afghanistan by as much as we learned the president is asking for -- you think it increases the chances of a 9/11-style attack?

BANKS: I think that it very much could because of the rise of ISIS-K in Afghanistan today which poses a much more complex, a much more serious threat to the homeland of the United States and a threat to our allies, as well. So now is not the time to pull back troops.

I've been critical of the administration over the last year because of the lack of attention or a lack of detail about the South Asia strategy. There's been very little meat on the bones of that strategy.

And I've always thought the president would serve our efforts there better if he visited Afghanistan and went and listened to the leaders on the ground. He would learn a great deal, just like I did last month when I visited with the bipartisan delegation, myself.

BERMAN: All right. To be fair, just so people don't think you're all critical of the president here -- you're being critical of his decision in Syria and Afghanistan -- you were very supportive of his action yesterday on the border wall and you voted for the House bill last night -- the funding bill which includes $5 billion for the border wall -- knowing that it likely will not get through the Senate and that a shutdown is likely.

And the president wrote this morning that there is a shutdown that could last for a very long time. Would you be comfortable with that?

BANKS: Well, nobody on Capitol Hill wants a shutdown. We still have time to get through this process. When the senators return from their premature early vacation and come back to Washington, D.C. today to do their work, then we can still -- we still have time to get this done to prevent a shutdown.

But what happened in the House yesterday was important. I am a rank and file member of the Republican Conference and our leadership listened to rank and file members, like myself, who come from districts with constituents who wanted us to vote on boosting border security funding like we did yesterday and send this spending deal back to the Senate so that they can take that under consideration, too.

That's how this process of negotiation in the legislative process works. We still have time to prevent a shutdown.

BERMAN: So the blame game is one of the sillier games we play in this country, particularly before Christmas. But the president did say that he was comfortable owning the shutdown. He sat in the Oval Office with Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer and said fine, fine, I own this. I'm happy to shut down the government if it's over border security.

So, if by tomorrow morning there isn't a deal made and the government is shut down, is this on him?

BANKS: The Legislative Branch crafts these spending deals so it is dependent upon Congress to pass a spending deal. We did that, responsibly so, with about 70 percent of the federal government that is funded for the full fiscal year that we passed before the fiscal year began earlier this year.

We have about 30 percent of the federal government that isn't funded and we have a chance today to pass a spending deal that will prevent a shutdown and fund the -- fund that rest of the government for the rest of the fiscal year.

BERMAN: Congressman Jim Banks, thanks for being with us. Thank you also for your service -- appreciate it. Have a wonderful holiday.

BANKS: Thank you. Happy holidays.

BERMAN: All right, the president is awake and he is weighing in on all the events of the morning -- the departure of James Mattis and the government shutdown, which he says could last for a long time.

NEW DAY continues right now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For Sec. Mattis, who's never been known to quit anything, this was the breaking point.

SEN. RICHARD BLUMENTHAL (D), CONNECTICUT: His decision to --