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Trump Calls Oversight Harassment; Trump Reshapes Cabinet; Lead Singer Battles Disease; Trump Rants over Being Alone. Aired 8:30-9a ET
Aired December 26, 2018 - 08:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[08:30:00] JOHN AVLON, CNN ANCHOR: Oversight duties and investigate the Trump administration vigorously. And here's how the president sees it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, then it's probably presidential harassment. And we know how to handle that. I think I handle that better than anybody. And there's been no collusion. After two years, no collusion. There has been collusion, but it's been by the Democrats.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AVLON: Checks and balances and presidential harassment.
Joining me now to cut through it all, CNN chief legal analyst Jeff Toobin and impeachment attorney Ross Garber.
Gentlemen, good to see you.
Jeff, let me start with you.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, sir.
AVLON: The president repeated one of his favorite riffs, no collusion, but Democrat collusion. Put on your Trump whisperer hat. What's he talking about?
TOOBIN: Well, I think he's talking about -- I mean it's a little mysterious to me, to be honest. I really don't -- never quite understood what he means by the Democrat collusion.
I think what he means is the creation of the Steele dossier and the research that went into Trump's -- the Trump campaign's connection with Russia that he regards as collusion itself. I don't want to justify what he's saying because I think it's crazy, but I think that's what he's talking about.
AVLON: That's the kernel beneath of truth (INAUDIBLE) the misinformation.
TOOBIN: Yes. Yes, indeed. Yes. AVLON: Ross, one of the things that we know that Democrats are excited to investigate and release, in fact, are the president's tax returns, via the Ways and Means Committee. Are there any obstacles to them taking that step? And do you think that's where the president could face the most legal and political jeopardy.
ROSS GARBER, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: So, on the tax returns, the first thing they have to do is get them. And there is an obstacle.
AVLON: Right.
GARBER: The president controls the executive branch. He can try to prevent them from getting the -- from getting his tax returns.
AVLON: But the chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee has the ability to release any individual's tax returns. So how does that fight work out?
GARBER: Has the ability to try to get them. But it -- again, in terms of actually getting them, there is a potential obstacle because the administration can resist. And I think that's one of the things we're going to look for, you know, when the Democrats take control is they're going to try to get all sorts of information, they're going to issue subpoenas.
The question is the enforcement of those subpoenas. And I think, you know, I think we're going to see the administration resist subpoenas. So the White House probably resist subpoenas to the Department of Justice. May resist subpoenas for things like tax returns. And then the question becomes, you're exactly right, what do they release and how do they release it?
TOOBIN: Well, and also, what do the courts do?
GARBER: Sure. Yes.
TOOBIN: I mean these fights over what the executive branch has to disclose ultimately will wind up in court. And it's worth remembering that during the Obama administration, the House of Representatives held Eric Holder in contempt at one point for failure to turn over documents, which had no effect, really. And I think those sorts of confrontations may happen, particularly over documents that the administration doesn't want to reveal.
AVLON: Well, it will be fascinating to see the White House adapt the mantle of the resistance as part of their slogan.
GARBER: Yes.
TOOBIN: Yes.
AVLON: Jeff, you had a great article in "The New Yorker" on Adam Schiff and that investigation's going forward in the House Intelligence Committee. And one of the things he told you was, quote, we're going to be looking at the issue of possible money laundering by the Trump Organization and Deutsche Bank is one obvious place to start. That's a big target right there and lots of questions about that relationship. How do you see that going forward?
TOOBIN: Well, see, there, I think, that's particularly promising because that's not something ultimately that the White House can object to. That is not federal government material. That is Deutsche Bank's material. And they are much more likely to fear being held in contempt by a congressional committee than the White House is.
You know, as many people may remember, in the 1990s, many banks, American banks, refused to do business with the Trump Organization. Trump took his business to Deutsche Bank. The nature of that relationship has been a subject of controversy and Deutsche Bank has been fined for money laundering, particularly for Russians. So there is smoke there. Whether there's any fire, we'll see.
AVLON: We'll see.
GARBER: Yes. Jeff is right, I think there are two things to look for. You know, putting aside sort of the power to force the administration to do anything, it's getting others, third parties, to cooperate with subpoenas, especially folks who have an incentive to cooperate. You know, banks who don't want to take on Congress, other individuals who are inclined to cooperate anyway. That's, I think, where Trump has the most potential damage.
TOOBIN: Like Michael Cohen, for example.
GARBER: Exactly. Right.
TOOBIN: Michael Cohen has said he will testify before Congress. That will be quite a show if and when he testifies in public.
AVLON: Particularly if it's an open hearing.
And, Ross --
GARBER: Yes.
AVLON: To Jeff's earlier point, I mean the red line that the president, you know, stated for the Mueller investigation with regard to personal finances of the company doesn't apply to Congress.
So let me ask you this, if they go into the Deutsche Bank relationship and really find some stuff, there's an open question. We know there's already folks who are eager for impeachment in the progressive caucus. Whether a president or any individual can be impeached for crimes committed before they took office, kind of a legal jump ball. Help us make sense of that.
[08:35:10] GARBER: Yes. So -- so the answer is, you know, we've never removed a president from office through impeachment.
AVLON: Sure.
GARBER: We've only impeached two presidents. And so there's a lot of uncertainty. You know, as we know this, the constitutional standard is treason,
bribery and other high crimes and misdemeanors and that phrase, that last phrase, there have been books written about it. And so there -- there is a question. There is precedent for impeaching judges for conduct before they took judicial office. But, you know, largely, but not exclusively, impeachment is a political process. And so it may come down to what Congress thinks. But I expect that issue, the one you've just identified, if we get that far, to get a lot of debate.
AVLON: And there's still, obviously, the obstacle of the Senate and the Republican margin there.
GARBER: Sure.
AVLON: Jeff, let me ask you this. We are heading into a new year and one of the fights we can clearly expect is the confirmation over Attorney General Nominee Barr. And he wrote a long memo --
TOOBIN: Right.
AVLON: With a pretty breath-taking view of executive power that dovetailed with things that Justice Kavanaugh had written in that "Minnesota Law Review" article.
Explain the sort of larger view of -- of executive power. Some people call it the theory of the unified -- unitary executive. That the president seems to be appealing to him perhaps simply out of self- interest.
TOOBIN: Well, that's right. I mean presidents, as a rule, tend to have expansive views of executive power. And the unitary theory of the executive says that -- is basically a more absolute view of executive power and limitations especially on the congressional -- the ability of the -- the legislative branch to tranch (ph) on any of those powers.
Kavanaugh expressed it in the "Minnesota Law Review" article. Barr expressed it in saying that Trump could not be accused of obstruction of justice for firing James Comey. That's what that memo was about.
You know, there are now going to be 50 -- is it 52 or 53 Republicans --
AVLON: Two.
TOOBIN: Fifty-two in the Senate. They are going to have the majority. And I think they will get Barr confirmed as attorney general. It's good to be in the majority.
GARBER: Fair enough.
Yes, and -- and this issue of the unitary executive, I think probably doesn't get enough attention. There's a lot of debate and discussion about sort of an independent department of justice and independent prosecutors. I mean the reality, especially, you know, under this theory of the unitary executive is that it's the president that oversees the executive branch of government and all of the agencies.
AVLON: Sure.
GARBER: That's the president's job.
AVLON: Well, you might understand why such a theory would appeal to someone who considers checks and balances presidential harassment.
TOOBIN: Yes.
AVLON: Gentlemen, thank you both very much for joining us.
TOOBIN: All right.
ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: Outnumbered, but not outmatched. Why New York City's mayor is praising the performance of this police officer. That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[08:41:46] HILL: More than $400,000 in donations have been returned to people who contributed to a bonus crowd funding campaign. Kate McClure and Mark D'Amico said a homeless man, Johnny Bobbitt had given McClure his last $20 when she was stranded on an interstate. He gave it to her so she could put gas in her car.
Well, the couple claimed they then started this GoFundMe campaign to thank him. Tough to forget the story, pulled at so many heartstrings. In fact, some 14,000 people donated to that GoFundMe account. Well now prosecutors say the story behind the campaign was predicated on a lie. McClure and D'Amico squandered the money on a car, they say, expensive handbags, trips, casinos. All three face charges of second degree theft and conspiracy charges.
AVLON: Charity scams are the worst.
All right, New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio is praising an NYPD officer for his extraordinary professionalism and bravery after he singlehandedly fought off a group of attackers on a subway platform. The tense confrontation caught on video. The officer approached the group after a woman told him she was being harassed. Police say the group appeared drunk and refused to leave. The officer could be heard repeatedly telling them to step back and I don't want to hurt you. One of the attackers lunged at the officer and fell onto the subway tracks. All five were taken into custody. But prosecutors decided not to charge them.
HILL: President Trump tweeting about being all alone at the White House. We'll speak with a Trump biographer about how the presidency is affecting Mr. Trump, next.
HILL: But, first, a lead singer who knows the roar of the crowd and the pain of an incurable disease. Dr. Sanjay Gupta has his story in today's "Turning Points."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): For Stuart Murdoch, playing for crowds just feels right. He's the charismatic front man of the Indie pop group Belle and Sebastian. But back in his early 20s, something felt very wrong.
STUART MURDOCH, : I became increasingly ill.
GUPTA: Murdoch was diagnosed with chronic fatigue syndrome, a complex condition that left him exhausted and in pain.
MURDOCH: One by one, you know, I gave up my university, and I had to give up working. I sat down one day at the piano and very gingerly put my thoughts into music and realized that I could write a song. I did feel that I'd been given a secret weapon.
GUPTA: Murdoch found his cause and his career, but he still struggles.
MURDOCH: I have the occasionally happy moment, you know, when I'm -- maybe I'm on stage in Radio City or Redrocks (ph) and just thinking, wow, I never planned this. Perhaps as soon as the concert's over, I'm going to feel sick and I'm going to look like an invalid for the next 24 hours.
We didn't' talk about Indie (ph). We were swept under the carpet.
GUPTA: He now speaks to others about his experience to help raise awareness.
MURDOCH: It could be the most important thing that I ever do.
GUPTA: Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN reporting.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[08:48:31] HILL: It is no secret being the president of the United States can feel like a very lonely job. President Trump revealing just how he's feeling, tweeting this on Christmas Eve. I am all alone, poor me, in the White House, waiting for the Democrats to come back and make a deal on desperately needed border security. At some point the Democrats not wanting to make a deal will cost our country more money than the border wall we're all king about. Crazy.
There we have it.
AVLON: It wasn't a Patsy Cline reference, either.
HILL: No.
AVLON: No.
HILL: No, it was not.
AVLON: All right, joining us now is CNN contributor and Trump biographer, Michael D'Antonio. Michael, thank you for joining us.
That tweet was so surreal because you've got this contradiction with President Trump, this sort of super human self-confidence and then this bottomless self-pity. You're his biographer. Help me make sense of it.
MICHAEL D'ANTONIO, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, John, they've always been present. So he's projected outwardly this image of self-confidence. And I think some of it is real. He's very confident about his ability to manipulate us with Twitter and to command our attention. So it's hard to fault him on that. But when he says I'm all alone, you know, it's up to us to decide whether that's kind of a joke and he's just tweaking us, or whether he really does feel all alone.
We do know from "The New York Times" reporting last week that he is quite isolated and that's always been a problem for him. He's tended to surround himself with people who say, yes, and agree with him and that can lead to isolation from information that might be helpful.
[08:50:11] HILL: It's also fascinating. You wrote in a piece for CNN on the 20th, just a few days ago, that his presidency is really a reflection, as you just pointed out, of who he's always been. And so for people who are disappointed that perhaps he's not acting in a way that they think that he should or even following through on some promises, they shouldn't be.
D'ANTONIO: No, they shouldn't be. And I think before the break you mentioned that people were wondering if he was adapting to being in the White House. And when he came into office, people said, I even speculated that maybe the office would change him. But what he is really doing is insisting that we change our view of what the presidency is. And I think that's actually happening. People, in many realms are starting to tune out elements of what comes out of Washington because they know it's going to change the next day. And they're not as upset by the chaos as they might have been a year ago.
And I know that's a strange thing to say because everybody runs around with their hair on fire all the time, but I think we're starting to say, well, you know, there's turnover, massive turnover in the White House. This is him imposing his personality on the administration.
AVLON: Well, what you're describing is a process of normalization. And you've got, on the one hand, the reality show vision of the presidency, the president's own instincts to some extent in that regard, and the feedback loop of him apparently spending a lot of executive time just watching television, and then cold, hard reality intruding. The markets. The investigations.
And my question for you is, as he is increasingly isolated and these additional pressures come in, given your understanding of the man, what's likely to be his reaction? Lashing out, some who's even more erratic and impulsive?
D'ANTONIO: Well, I think what you described is actually happening. That the stock market that he loved for a year and a half is now something he's very upset about. And you can see that world events are not under his control.
He's going to keep doing this. This is the reality that we have to accept, that he's not a person who makes progress toward a specific goal and then looks to the next one and climbs higher. He loops. So he's always going to go in a cycle of demanding something, not getting what he wants entirely, but interpreting it as a win. And then anything that happens that isn't pleasant is going to be somebody else's fault.
So -- but I think, you know, the interesting thing is that everybody knows this now. This is his operating system, you know, this cyclical approach to manipulating us and declaring what's real instead of accepting what's real. And there may be terrible things that happen in the year to come, but I don't think he's going to ever take responsibly for any of them.
HILL: And a lot of this too is, I mean, it does play out. Maybe it was a joke in the beginning for some people, the reality TV president, but a lot of this plays out like reality television. And we see it over and over again, he's trying to set up a narrative. He's trying to, you know, tease you to what the next big thing is. He wants a big finale. He wants a big finish.
AVLON: Yes.
HILL: All of that, though, as it plays out.
D'ANTONIO: Well --
HILL: As you -- as you say people are starting to realize how he operates, do you think they're changing the way they interact with him to get a better outcome for the country?
D'ANTONIO: Well, that's a difficult thing to assess. You saw that Secretary Mattis obviously didn't think he could do that anymore. And I think you can look at the military and wonder how folks there are thinking about this. There is a decided resistance element I think in almost every department of the government. There are professionals who are going to keep doing their jobs and keeping us safe and making sure that things work.
The shutdown that we're in now is one area where you can see the president disturbing that effort to compensate for him. People -- and he's going to surround himself with people who are going to challenge him less. And that's what's -- we have to accept, too, is that the new cabinet members are going to be even less independent minded than the ones who have departed. So I wouldn't expect there to be more adults in the room.
AVLON: That's reassuring.
HILL: A good note to end on, or not.
AVLON: Yes.
HILL: Always appreciate it, Michael. Thank you. AVLON: Thank you, Michael.
D'ANTONIO: This is -- thank you.
AVLON: All right.
HILL: Stay tuned. "The Good Stuff" is next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[08:58:41] HILL: How about a little "Good Stuff" this morning?
AVLON: Yes.
HILL: An eight-year-old New Jersey boy's selfless Christmas wish coming true. Just about a week ago Michael Bell (ph) asked the neighborhood Santa if he could borrow some money. He wanted to help kids fighting cancer. Michael, it turns out, would see these children in the hospital because he was there for routine treatment for a genetic condition that can cause tumors. Word spread quickly among his family and friends and on Christmas morning Michael found a surprise under the tree.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I thought I was all done. I took it out. And there was a million hundred dollars.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HILL: Not quite a million hundred dollars, but $1,200.
AVLON: But it felt the same way.
HILL: Not so bad. So Santa got the message.
AVLON: Love it.
HILL: I think a lot of other people did, too. So that money all going to pediatric brain cancer research. The card enclosed called Michael a shining star. And what a great example for the rest of us.
AVLON: I love it. It's the spirit of the season. It's not getting, it's giving.
HILL: Absolutely.
AVLON: We too often forget that. Beautiful stuff. "The Good Stuff" for sure.
HILL: "The Good Stuff" it is.
AVLON: All right.
All right "NEWSROOM" with Jim Sciutto begins right now. JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: A very good morning to you. The day after Christmas. Time to open presents. Also look to a new year of news. I'm Jim Sciutto. Poppy Harlow has the day off.
[08:59:55] The second day of Christmas is day five of a partial government shutdown that in theory could end as soon as tomorrow. That's when lawmakers come back to Capitol Hill for the last few days of the 115th Congress. In reality, though, let's be honest, the funny
