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Romney Op-Ed Criticizes Trump's Character; American Detained in Russia as Suspected Spy. Aired 7-7:30a ET

Aired January 02, 2019 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: I, of course, representing CNN and because they were honoring the free press. And they were honoring journalists. And it was just a wonderful, moving ceremony to be able to press the button that lowers the ball.

[07:00:12] JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: You made 2019 happen.

CAMEROTA: Thank you.

Here it is. Look, as you can see, I took my job very seriously. In fact, I refused to let go of the button, OK.

BERMAN: You have magical powers? Magical 2019 powers?

CAMEROTA: Yes, I guess I do, because I just felt very strongly that that ball should not move after I touched it. And then we did the countdown, and you'll see all sorts of other journalists from top news organizations there. When the confetti falls -- I mean, it really is thrilling.

BERMAN: You didn't know the words to the song. Everyone else is singing. You did not know the words to the song.

CAMEROTA: I know "New York, New York." I do know "New York New York." I was just taking in the moment.

BERMAN: OK.

CAMEROTA: Meanwhile, here we are, a day before he is sworn in, as Senator Mitt Romney is attacking President Trump's character in this scathing "Washington Post" op-ed. Romney writes, the president has, quote, "not risen to the mantle of the office," end quote. He adds, "A president should unite us and inspire us to follow our better angels. A president should demonstrate the essential qualities of honesty and integrity, and elevate the national discourse with comity and mutual respect. And it is in this province where the incumbent's shortfall has been most glaring."

Mr. Trump's reelection campaign manager has already fired back, saying, quote, "Jealousy is a drink best served warm, and Romney just proved it."

BERMAN: We're going to explore the mixology of that statement coming up. But the harsh words from incoming Senator Romney come as the president and Congress remain at a stalemate over any of the government shutdown, which is now in day 12.

President Trump says he wants to make a deal. He's inviting congressional leaders from both sides of the aisle to the White House today for a briefing on border security. This will be the first face- to-face meeting since the president said he would be proud to shut down the government over border security. Democrats set to take control of the House tomorrow. Their first order of business will be voting on a funding bill to reopen the government. However, that bill will have no new money for the president's proposed border wall.

Joining us now, CNN political analysts David Gregory; former Republican Congressman Charlie Dent; and Kevin Madden, a Republican strategist who worked for Mitt Romney's presidential campaigns.

Congressman Dent, I want to start with you. you quit Congress out of frustration with President Trump.

So the sentiments expressed by Mitt Romney in this op-ed overnight, I think, are somewhat in line with what you've been saying for quite a long time. What difference will it make?

CHARLIE DENT, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, first, I do believe Mitt Romney is absolutely right. Character does count. And you know, how do you deal with a president, you know, who insults allies, who just shatters norms and traditions, and just behaves in ways that are unpresidential?

Mitt Romney is correct. You know, he's analyzed the problem accurately. The question is, what does one do about it? You know, I think we're at the point now, long past the point where somebody needs to stage an intervention, but there doesn't seem to be anyone willing or capable or somebody close enough to the president to do so.

I mean, this -- this never-ending dysfunction and chaos in the White House is creating a crisis of leadership, both at home and abroad. I think Romney, again, he's made the right diagnosis. A lot of us have. But nobody really has a good answer of how to deal with a presidency that seems to be spiraling out of control.

CAMEROTA: Well, Kevin, look, you know Mitt Romney very well. Obviously, you've worked with him for years.

It seems as though he thinks that speaking out is one of the action -- calls to action that people can do. And I hear what Charlie is saying, that it hasn't necessarily worked in the past to change anything. But that doesn't mean that you're not supposed to speak out. And Mitt Romney, it sounds to me, from reading his op-ed, that he felt that December, the month of December was a tipping point for him and for the presidency.

Let me just read a little portion of it. He says, "The Trump presidency made a deep descent in December. The departures of Defense Secretary Jim Mattis and White House chief of staff John Kelly, the appointment of senior persons of lesser experience, the abandonment of allies who fight behind us, the president's thoughtless claim that America has long been a 'sucker' in world affairs all defined his presidency down."

What do you think his goal is?

KEVIN MADDEN, CNN POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: I think it's also that it's correct. I think it's a diagnosis. I think it also is given that he's coming in a senator now and is taking on a new national profile, that's important for him to frame his work in accordance with those beliefs and those principles that he laid out in the op-ed.

I think part of it also is to fill a void now that's in the Senate with Corker and -- with Senator Corker and Senator Flake and Senator McCain no longer there, moving into that space and becoming, you know, essentially, maybe a new voice of conscience in the Senate.

But big challenge for him, though, is this is a grand gesture. Op-eds and speeches like he's given in the past. They are grand gestures. But what comes next? Is it in service of a larger strategy where he can build a coalition of -- of other senators and work with colleagues in the House to, you know, be a principled opposition or work on legislation that would then chart, have the White House chart a new course on policy.

And potentially, you know, a service, somebody who can keep this president on track, that, I think, is the big challenge going ahead.

BERMAN: You know, and he tried to frame it, David Gregory, in a specific way. He said, "I do not intend to comment on every tweet or fault, but I will speak out against significant statements or actions that are divisive, racist, sexist, anti-immigrant, dishonest or destructive to democratic institutions." He's trying to say he's not going to talk about it every day. But he lists dishonesty there among other things, and we know "The Washington Post" fact checkers note the president's lying, you know, 15 times a day. If he's only going to comment on those, it's a full-time job.

DAVID GREGORY, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: It's a full-time job. And he is also going to incur the wrath of President Trump any moment now, who will not, obviously, shy away from hitting back, hitting back hard and often.

And Mitt Romney is an incoming senator, is not just taking on President Trump. He's going to take on his most stalwart defenders on FOX News, for example. So he's going to occupy this space very quickly. People will look to him to do that. He's got a different profile than others senators do. But who stands with him? And where's the leadership?

We have said so often on this program, calling out Republican leaders, who say they stand for certain things but who don't stage any kind of intervention, as Charlie Dent says, against the president, largely because they feel they can't do it politically. They don't have the strength.

The president has a lot of political weakness. And 2019 is going to be a lot like 2020. We're going to be diagnosing the political climate in the country and looking ahead to a presidential race in 2020. If the president is sufficiently weak, you may see more Republicans stand up and say, "We're going to call him out. We're going to issue our own statement of principles as a party and join Romney." But I feel like we're a ways away from that just yet.

CAMEROTA: But Charlie, I don't even know what stage an intervention means in this case. He is who he is. What do you want Republicans to do with President Trump in an intervention?

DENT: Well, I think somebody has to march down Pennsylvania Avenue, presumably, Republican leaders and maybe a couple members of the family and senior staff, and say, "This is an unsustainable situation. It cannot continue this way." You know, the insulting of allies, the constant name calling, this -- the unpresidential behavior. Just the way he negotiates. I mean, he -- you can't -- he can't --nobody can speak on his behalf. It's difficult to negotiate with him, because you just don't know where he's going to come down on a given issue.

I mean, I think this kind of conversation has to happen. I don't know if it will change anything, but somebody needs to get in his face about it and maybe, you know, more than one person; and I think that would be helpful.

Now, will it change anything? I don't know. We've never -- we've never dealt with a president this mercurial, and you know, this out of control, as far as I am concerned.

BERMAN: It's interesting, and it's a backdrop now for what will happen in the new Washington, the new Washington where Democrats take charge of the House tomorrow.

And Kevin, the president has invited congressional leaders to come to the White House today for this meeting to try to re-open the government. He says he wants to make a deal.

Our reporting is that Democratic leaders believe it's a stunt. I'm very curious about what we're going to see today. The president has had days holed up in the White House all alone to prepare for this. Has he got some script he's going to unload? Some public performance, more rehearsed, perhaps, than the one a couple weeks ago when he said he would own the shutdown? What would he want to get out of this?

MADDEN: Well, I think first of all, you can -- if there's one guarantee, it's going to be that he's going to take a couple shots at Mitt Romney. I think the bait will be too easy to avoid on that one.

But I don't expect that there is any new conciliatory gesture by -- on behalf of the president or any new offer that is going to really move anything in a new direction, as it relates to trying to find an end to the shutdown.

It seems that the White House and the president have painted themselves into a corner, and they don't know how to -- how to get out of it. I don't yet see an off-ramp that would allow the president to very definitively declare victory here and start to move towards a legislative bargain on this.

So I expect that what we'll see is a couple -- a little bit of fireworks out of it.

CAMEROTA: David -- just, I also want you to comment on this. We keep using the term "the president's border wall." But I mean, that's just shorthand for "We don't know what he's talking about," because he has been so all over the map in terms of what his own definition of a border wall is.

So he started with 1,000 miles. OK? A thousand miles of a concrete 32-foot wall. That's where he started. Here is the montage of all the different things, the ways he's described the wall. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We actually need 1,000, because we have natural barriers.

It's going to be so big. It's going to be so powerful. It's going to be as beautiful as a wall can be.

[07:10:06] The wall, also called -- so that I give them a little bit of an out, steel slats. We don't use the word "wall" necessarily.

It's not going to be open until we have a wall, a fence, whatever they'd like to call it.

So we're looking at between 500 and 550.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Where do you start with that one?

GREGORY: Well, I think it's clear that the president wants to declare victory on a wall even if it's not a wall, even if it's any kind of reinforcement.

I think the pressure -- I'm always an optimist on this kind of broader immigration deal. Because I think -- I think the president would like it. There are people who are in his corner who advise him like Lindsey Graham. Who's floating a bigger deal on DREAMers.

The problem I think Democrats face is I think there's a lot of pressure within the caucus in the House, but more broadly, in the Democratic Party, not to reward this president at all -- a president who has so staunchly anti-immigrant in his statements and in his policies, if you think of family separations -- to allow him to declare any kind of victory, even if it's part of a broader deal. And I think they'd be even more willing to do that in the context of the government shutdown, to try to negotiate something larger at this point. BERMAN: Two things very quickly. First of all, we're trying to

figure out what the president means by the wall.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

BERMAN: You got an answer from someone who thinks for the president. CAMEROTA: Well, on Monday I texted Ann Coulter, because she was one

of the people, right, who got the president's attention. because she was so disgusted that he had settled for not building a wall, along with, it looks like, Rush Limbaugh. So I said, "Can you define what it is that you're calling for so that we all are clear?" And she said exactly what Israel has, nothing less.

BERMAN: Which is a 30-foot wall in some places, although it's a 5- foot or so wall in other places, which is interesting. I thought that was really, you know, clarifying for what the president is thinking here.

CAMEROTA: Yes. I mean, the problem is, as I've said, Israel is the size of New Jersey.

BERMAN: Yes.

CAMEROTA: So that's -- we already have that. If that's what Ann Coulter wants, we already have that amount of wall or fencing or border in on our southern border.

BERMAN: And Charlie, while we have you, I want to respond to what David Gregory just said moments ago, the idea that there is room for a larger immigration compromise. You've got the scars over the last several attempts at the larger -- larger immigration compromise, Congressman.

And you know that it was largely members from within the Republican Caucus who would not stand to give anything in terms of legal status for DREAMers or people who are undocumented in this country.

DENT: John, there's an easy way out of the mess. Actually, what Nancy Pelosi has proposed for Thursday, pass the six appropriations bill and a continuing resolution on the homeland bill until February is a way out. That's a way out.

And then between the time they enact this law and February 8, they should get into a serious negotiation. If I were the Democrats, I would happily trade $5 billion for protection of the DREAMers, the TPS population, and maybe a Mueller protection bill. I think it's -- and there should be a hard negotiation between the time the government re- opens and, you know, February 8. That's how they should deal with this.

And of course, nobody is talking about a 2,000-mile concrete barrier on the Southern border, but border security, we can do a lot there. I think the Democrats have a -- could actually cut a pretty good deal if they're smart about this.

CAMEROTA: That's really interesting. I mean, obviously, we'll see if they just want want -- if they want the president to not get a win, you know. Today will be a good test of all of that.

Gentlemen, thank you very much.

A programming note. Incoming senator, Mitt Romney, will give his first live interview after that scathing op-ed on "THE LEAD" with Jake Tapper. That's today at 4 p.m. Eastern right here on CNN.

BERMAN: Secretary of State Mike Pompeo just made his first statement about an American being detained in Russia accused of spying. We have breaking details of what Pompeo said, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:17:55] ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BERMAN: All right. The breaking news, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo spoke just moments ago. He's down in Brazil for the inauguration of the new president there, but he faced his first questions about the American detained in Russia accused of spying. Listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE POMPEO, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: With respect to Mr. Whelan, who's being held, we are hopeful within the next hours we will get consular access to see him, to get a chance to learn more. We've made clear to the Russians our expectation that we will learn more about the charges, come to understand what it is he's been accused of; and if the detention is not appropriate, we will demand his immediate return.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: All right. Joining us now to discuss this and more, CNN Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr; and former Army commanding general in Europe in the 7th Army, retired lieutenant general, Mark Hertling.

Barbara, to you. We just heard from Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, saying, "We're hoping to get consular access in the next hour," which to me reads they haven't had it yet, which is interesting in and of itself, because he's been in custody for a few days now. And also saying we hope to find out more about why he's detained, and if it's something fishy, we hope he's released. How did you read the statement from the secretary?

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think there are potentially some Russian laws and regulations about when someone is detained, when they get access to their consular officials. People have been waiting for that clock to tick down. But now it is coming down to it, and the U.S. is going to make a very strong case that they want to see this person, this retired Marine, American citizen.

You know, they have to do that. They cannot let the Russians simply take Americans off the street and not follow the rules. So expect to see a very strong push from the State Department to find out exactly what went on here.

CAMEROTA: General, what is the protocol when an American is arrested and detained and accused of spying?

LT. GEN. MARK HERTLING (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: In any country, Alisyn, that -- what Barbara just explained happened. I mean, I used to get a daily report as the commander of U.S. Army in Europe, on who had been detained in any country.

You have to get the consulate there. They have to find out what occurred. They have to see what kind of laws are broken, and then they report that.

[07:20:05] So this is something that occurs very quickly normally, under normal conditions, even with someone accused of spying; and I'm surprised it hadn't happened earlier, like you just said.

BERMAN: All right. We brought you guys on this morning to talk about big developments in national security, because there are major developments. There are -- there's actual policy developments, and there's drama.

And Barbara, I want to start with you on the policy developments. No. 1, we have a new acting secretary of defense, as of yesterday, or two days ago. My math is bad here, on Paul Shanahan. And also, the president, all of a sudden, saying that the drawdown from Syria will be gradual, over four months, which is different than what was first announced, albeit by Twitter a couple of weeks ago.

STARR: So permit me. The Pentagon does both policy and drama.

BERMAN: Yes.

STARR: At all times.

Yes, I mean, Patrick Shanahan, first day on the job. He walked up the steps early, early this morning in the 6 a.m. hour, didn't really speak to reporters other than to say he was on the job. He is now facing this very critical question. What does President Trump want to do about troops in Syria and troops in Afghanistan?

The president now apparently slowing it down a bit, if you listen to Lindsey Graham over the weekend after he talked to the president. But Shanahan is going to have to get the president to agree to a timetable that will keep U.S. troops safe as they withdraw. That is really the critical thing here.

Mr. Trump apparently surprised when he'd heard from commanders that no, ISIS is not defeated in Syria, and that U.S. troops still have work to do there. So this is going to be, perhaps, job No. 1 for Shanahan, because he is now going to have to show the military, military commanders that he understands what they're up against and that he's willing to talk to the president very plainly and very candidly about what he thinks needs to be done.

CAMEROTA: But General, I'm not sure that this is what Senator Lindsey Graham meant when he said that the president was in pause mode. I don't know that slowing something down. Announcing that there will be a troop withdrawal, announcing all of the American soldiers are coming home, OK, it will happen over four months. That's not a pause.

HERTLING: No, it's definitely not a pause. It's -- it appears to be the start of a change of mind, change of attitude.

Here's the thing. And I'd like to comment. This is perhaps one of those times you ought to ask Ann Coulter, again, on what's going on in Syria.

CAMEROTA: All right. I'll try that.

HERTLING: Because many people don't know. And here's one of the things that I would say.

The president seems to have not used his national security processes. The secretary of defense, the chairman of the joint chiefs, to secretary of state. He has, instead, asked for advice -- and certainly presidents can do this -- but he has asked for advice from people like Lindsey Graham, Rand Paul, Prime Minister Netanyahu, President Erdogan. So these are outsiders attempting to play in the national security process on what should be done before announcements are made.

So the president did, in this case, with Syria, what we in the military, we call a ready, shoot, aim. He made the decision first and then started looking for things to either back it up or run contrary to what he thought. That's confusing to not only our allies but also our foes. And it's especially confusing for the military people who have to execute this policy.

And as Barbara said, there's a whole lot more drama than there is sometimes policy within that Pentagon. I served there for two years.

BERMAN: On the subject of drama, the president continues to fight with retired military generals. Stanley McChrystal was on ABC's "THIS WEEK WITH MARTHA RADDATZ" over the weekend. Let me play you what he said that got the president so angry.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARTHA RADDATZ, ABC NEWS: If you were asked to join the Trump administration, what would you say?

GEN. STANLEY MCCHRYSTAL (RET.), FORMER COMMANDER, U.S. FORCES IN AFGHANISTAN: I'd say no. I think it's important for me to work for people who are honest, who tell the truth as best they know it.

RADDATZ: You think he's a liar?

MCCHRYSTAL: I don't think he tells the truth.

RADDATZ: Is Trump immoral, in your view?

MCCHRYSTAL: I think he is.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Not a lot of wiggle room there, Barbara Starr. To which the president responded, "General McChrystal got fired like a dog by Obama. Last assignment a total bust. Known for big, dumb mouth. Hillary lover!"

CAMEROTA: What job do dogs do that they get fired for?

BERMAN: He was in Afghanistan and -- you know, well, in this case, he was let go for talking about the Obama administration. But this idea that the president is in this ongoing feud with retired generals who served with honor, long careers, Barbara, it continues.

STARR: Well, it does. It's not that previous presidents have always been in agreement with their retired generals, and retired generals often -- we saw it back in the height of the Iraq War -- criticize ongoing national security events. They criticize wars.

There is a fundamental different here. The question for the Pentagon, the question for Patrick Shanahan right now, is the president bringing too much political influence into the military ranks? Is he politicizing the military in this country? And General Hertling knows much more about this than anybody. In the United States, the United States military is to be not impacted by politics. It is not a political force; it is a force for the American people.

[07:25:14] And when you start seeing these political influences, the rhetoric, the red hats, the "Make America Great Again" hats, there are a lot of questions -- questions raised with top commanders, a lot of worry and concern that the Trump administration simply is bringing too much politics into the military ranks.

CAMEROTA: General, Admiral McRaven has come out in strong support of General McChrystal. McRaven led the Navy SEAL team, of course, that got Osama bin Laden. You've worked with these gentlemen. Your thoughts on this fight.

HERTLING: Well, I'm going to -- add to what just Barbara said. You know, when Stan McChrystal was, quote unquote, "fired," he actually offered his resignation for something his staff did. Make that clear: it wasn't his words.

But one of the things that was different is he was in uniform at the time. You don't contradict the serving president, the member of your chain of command. You stay quiet. If you have disagreements, you voice them in private.

What he is doing now is answering questions as a private citizen. And again, another military term, BFO, blinding flash of the obvious. He said the president was untruthful and not very moral. Everyone knows that. That's been proven several times. So he was answering questions by Martha Raddatz that were actually true, and he's a private citizen, saying -- but Barbara is also right.

Those in the military are very concerned about politicization. Politicization of the military. It's not what they do when they're in uniform. They obey the orders of their commanders, to include the commander in chief. And they do what they're supposed to do.

Anytime you drive a wedge in there, just like you drive -- attempt to drive a wedge in the Justice Department or the intelligence community or anything else that is supposed to be apolitical, you have some problems.

The military, I don't believe, will allow this to continue to happen. But there's a lot of discussion going on in the active ranks right now about these continual assaults on general officers, on the military, and doing these kinds of things.

So make no mistake about it. It is being discussed in the active ranks about what is occurring with the president and how he's treating the military.

CAMEROTA: General Hertling, Barbara Starr, thank you very much.

All right. It happened again. Border Patrol agents using tear gas and pepper spray against migrants trying to get into the U.S. What the Border Patrol says led to this confrontation, next.

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