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New Day
The Evolution Of President Trump's "Border Wall"; Update On Young Migrant Heard On Tape Crying For Her Family; Russia Charges Detained American With Espionage; U.S. Scouting Sites For Second Trump-Kim Summit. Aired 7:30-8a ET
Aired January 04, 2019 - 07:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[07:30:44] ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Some Republican senators are breaking with President Trump and GOP leaders, signaling they could support a budget plan without funding for a border wall in order to end the government shutdown. But, the vice president says the White House will not budge.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE PENCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The president's made it clear. We are here to make a deal, but it's deal that's going to result in achieving real gains on border security. And you have no border security without a wall. We will have no deal without a wall.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CAMEROTA: Joining us now is former Republican senator and CNN senior political commentator, Rick Santorum. Good morning, Senator.
RICK SANTORUM, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, (R) FORMER U.S. SENATOR, PENNSYLVANIA: Good morning, Alisyn. Happy New Year to you.
CAMEROTA: And, to you.
SANTORUM: Thank you.
CAMEROTA: To reopen the government, must there be a wall?
SANTORUM: I like -- the vice president, I think, is pretty clear on that. President Trump's been pretty clear on that there has to be wall funding. And you have, on the other side, last night, Nancy Pelosi coming out and saying there will be no wall.
So --
CAMEROTA: Yes.
SANTORUM: -- that's why -- that's why we continue to have the government partially shut down.
CAMEROTA: Has the president really been pretty clear on it because from where we sit, he's been all over the map? Here he was yesterday in the briefing room. It seemed -- it sure sounded like he was backing away from the idea of a wall. Here he is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The wall, about -- you can call it a barrier, you can call it whatever you want. But essentially, we need protection in our country.
I have never had so much support as I have in the last week over my stance for border security, for border control, and for, frankly, the wall or the barrier.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CAMEROTA: Rick, border security, border control, a barrier, a wall. Which one is it?
SANTORUM: Well, I mean, he's -- look, if you listen to the people that came out and spoke after him, they all came up and talked about how essential a barrier or a wall is.
CAMEROTA: Yes.
SANTORUM: So look, that was the whole reason for the press conference --
CAMEROTA: But those are different things. I mean, Rick --
SANTORUM: -- was to make the point.
CAMEROTA: I understand. But let's just be precise with language. A fence is different than a wall.
SANTORUM: Yes.
CAMEROTA: Steel slats are different than a wall. Natural barriers are different than a wall.
SANTORUM: Yes, what -- I think you make a good point that the president is open to negotiating the form of what the quote "wall or barrier" looks like and its applicability, depending on where you're -- where you're locating it.
So I think the president actually has been clear that he needs some sort of border security barrier to support the folks down here trying to protect our border --
CAMEROTA: Yes.
SANTORUM: -- and this is something that we've seen.
I mean, look, Chuck Schumer voted for the Fence Act. I mean, that for 700 miles of --
CAMEROTA: That's right -- that's different. SANTORUM: -- border wall.
CAMEROTA: Rick, this is totally different. That's the point is that Nancy -- when Nancy Pelosi says no wall, she's being literal. She means no wall. But all lawmakers say that they're willing to invest money in border security.
How can the government be shut down if all we're doing is talking about border security on which everyone agrees?
SANTORUM: I think the -- well, it's obviously purely political that the president and Nancy Pelosi have constituencies that they're trying appeal to, but I think there is a deal.
If Nancy Pelosi says we'll put up $5.6 billion for barriers -- and maybe it's not a cement wall, maybe it's some sort of fence or steel slats or whatever -- I think the president would probably go along with something like that. But that's not what I'm hearing.
And when -- I don't think Nancy's being literal. I think she's talking about no physical barriers and -- because that's a moral imperative that they've now created that we're not going to have these physical barriers. That somehow that's -- there's something wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with it.
CAMEROTA: I don't --
SANTORUM: The barriers that are in place right now are working and working well.
CAMEROTA: You can't -- Rick --
SANTORUM: No one's proposing to tear down the walls that we have. I haven't heard any of that. Maybe there are some, but --
CAMEROTA: No, Rick, that's the point, which is they are shoring up the fencing in places where there's holes or it's not working. Democrats don't refuse to do that. This is a semantics thing.
The president -- listen, let's remember the president was going to agree to the continuing resolution, OK, when it was just going to be border security. But then, it was Matt Drudge or it was Ann Coulter or it was Rush Limbaugh who said no, it has to be a wall -- and here we are.
[07:35:03] SANTORUM: I think a wall means -- and as the president said yesterday, a physical barrier to stop vehicles or individuals from crossing the border, and if the Democrats are willing to do that I think there's a -- there's a deal to be made here.
I don't think that they're willing to do anything to help the president go back and say see, I won. That's the real problem here is that this is a political game that they have to beat the president back. They can't give him his highest priority and that's why I think we're stuck where we are right now. CAMEROTA: And do you think that there's any problem with the fact that the president can't say OK, I don't need an actual physical 32- foot high cement wall?
SANTORUM: But I think he said that yesterday. I think he's said it throughout. He -- you know, he's talked about --
CAMEROTA: He's never said that. Rick, you know that this is a face- saving measure. He can't say -- he goes back and forth. I do want a wall. It doesn't have to be a wall, but I do want a wall.
You know that he's struggling with his base. He has never said OK, you win, it won't be a cement wall. We'll make it a fence.
SANTORUM: I think Republicans and conservatives would be happy if the barriers that were constructed or things that are appropriate and that the experts -- the folks at the border who are actually doing the work say look, this is sufficient for what we want to accomplish in stopping this particular form of traffic. That, to me, is a way out and something that conservatives could easily support.
CAMEROTA: OK, that is completely different than where we started and then what Mike Pence said. Here is what he said. "We will have no deal without a wall."
SANTORUM: Well, again, I think a wall could mean different things. There's -- you know, you could --
CAMEROTA: Wow.
SANTORUM: You and I think of a wall as this big --
CAMEROTA: As a wall.
SANTORUM: -- cement structure, but it could be other types of physical barriers that would accomplish the same thing.
CAMEROTA: OK, let me tell you something, Rick. I think that you're right. I think that in terms of that, that's what politicians are saying.
But let's have some precision of language. A wall is a wall. We all know that.
SANTORUM: Well, yes, I guess. Again, a wall is a wall but there are all different types of walls made out of different materials for different purposes. So, you know, I'm not -- I'm not too sure that the semantics is the problem here.
I think the problem is that Democrats do not want to give anything to the president that -- where he can go back and say he's built his wall, whether it's a --
CAMEROTA: I think the semantics are entirely the problem here and the president is not --
SANTORUM: Yes.
CAMEROTA: -- willing to say no, it doesn't have to be a cement wall.
Rick, last question.
SANTORUM: Yes.
CAMEROTA: What's going to happen? Is the government -- are they going to make any progress today in this meeting? How long is the government going to be shut down because we're now at the fourth- longest shutdown in U.S. history?
SANTORUM: Yes, I would say that there's very little pressure on -- I think the president feels very little pressure to do anything to keep the government going. There's -- the fallout has been --
CAMEROTA: I mean, why is that, Rick? I'm just curious. I just -- I'm sorry to interrupt you but why is that? I mean, 800,000 people are going without pay.
Why does he feel such little pressure?
SANTORUM: Because he feels that the imperative in his administration is to get -- is to get the border secure, and that was something that he's promised.
Republicans put him off and said you know, look, we can't get it done this time but we'll get it done later, and that he went along with it. And he's not going to -- he's not going to budge anymore. He's put off this priority for the administration long enough.
It is something that he believes -- and I think a lot of the public believes -- is important, and I don't think you're going to see him back away from it at all.
And the question is whether Democrats can get enough in addition to -- you know, get enough of their priorities, whether it's spending or whether it's changes in DACA or other things in order to offset the pain of giving the president his priority.
CAMEROTA: Senator Rick Santorum, thank you for your perspective --
SANTORUM: Thank you, my pleasure.
CAMEROTA: -- on this -- John.
JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: All right. The world heard her cries in heartbreaking audio after being separated from her family by the U.S. government. Six months later, CNN catches up with the child and her mother. We'll tell you how they're doing, next.
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[07:42:49] BERMAN: Her cries were heard around the world after being separated from her mother at the U.S. border. Alison Madrid did not speak a word of English when she came to the United States seven months ago, but you can feel her pain in her plea to immigration officials.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BORDER PATROL AGENT (Speaking Spanish): Where are you from?
ALISON MADRID, SEPARATED FROM HER FAMILY AT BORDER (Speaking Spanish): El Salvador (crying).
BORDER PATROL AGENT: Don't cry.
A. MADRID: I want to go with my aunt.
BORDER PATROL AGENT: You're going to get there. Look, she will explain it and help you.
A. MADRID: At least can I go with my aunt? I want her to come. I want my aunt to come so she can take me to her house.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: At the time of the recording, the then-6-year-old's mother was nearly 1,300 miles away from her. The two have since reunited in Houston.
CNN's Gary Tuchman found them and has an update on their story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Seven-year-old Alison Jimena Madrid enjoying the day at the Children's Museum of Houston.
TUCHMAN (on camera): Are you happy today? Estas feliz hoy?
A. MADRID: Si, muy feliz (yes, very happy).
TUCHMAN (voice-over): A very different story from when she and her mother first came to this country. And now, almost six months later, they're getting ready for their first asylum hearing, the start of a process which will determine whether or not they can stay in the U.S.
As they've waited for the hearing, Alison Jimena has been going to a public school in Houston. When she arrived in the U.S. she did not speak a word of English.
TUCHMAN (on camera): So, Alison Jimena, you have something you want to read?
A. MADRID: Yes.
TUCHMAN: OK, let's hear in English.
A. MADRID: Why I love America. I love my school, I love my church. I love to smile. I love and believe in the American dream. Happy New Year, America.
TUCHMAN: Happy New Year, America, to you, too.
A. MADRID: Happy New Year, America.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): Her mother, Cindy, is doing her best to learn English at her church.
CINDY MADRID, MOTHER OF ALISON MADRID: One, two, three, four, five, six --
TUCHMAN: She cannot legally get a job at this stage of the asylum process but says she wants to work. She says would like to have a job cleaning or a restaurant or whatever job she can get as long as she can do it with dignity.
[07:45:08] A. MADRID: (INAUDIBLE) work together. They mix the crab apples with sugar, salt, and water.
TUCHMAN: So what is the likelihood that daughter and mother will be granted asylum? Their lawyer says she is hopeful, but --
THELMA GARCIA, ATTORNEY: There's a good chance that it may not be granted.
TUCHMAN: Attorney Garcia says Cindy Madrid left to protect Alison, her only child, from gang violence. Alison told us what her understanding is of that threat.
A. MADRID: (Speaking Spanish).
TUCHMAN: The gang, she says, they wanted to steal me.
The attorney says if Cindy Madrid loses her case and is sent back to El Salvador, that is not an overstatement.
GARCIA: It could be death. They had very serious problems with gang violence. They had no protection by the police as well. So we're not expecting anything good if she is returned back home.
TUCHMAN: Alison Jimena says Houston is now her home.
A. MADRID: It is a sunny day when friends stick together.
TUCHMAN: El fin -- the end.
A. MADRID: The -- finished.
TUCHMAN: But this legal battle is far from finished.
Gary Tuchman, CNN, Houston.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CAMEROTA: I'm so glad Gary found that. I mean, that demanded a follow-up to know what had happened with her.
BERMAN: And I think it's an important reminder no matter where you stand on this issue, these are people we're talking about -- real people with real lives, including real children.
And, Alisyn, I've got to say, she's been in the country, what, six months? Do you hear her English?
CAMEROTA: Yes. I mean, also, I think that it's important to remember that the Trump administration is trying to change the criteria for political asylum -- for seeking asylum. And so, gang violence is still a question. If that makes your life unlivable and your child may be stolen, and it's life and death situation, does that warrant asylum?
BERMAN: Well, they say no. I mean, they say no. That's the issue.
All right.
CNN has learned that the Trump administration is scouting out sites for a second summit between President Trump and Kim Jong Un, but what has changed since the first meeting? James Clapper joins us, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[07:50:52] BERMAN: Russia has charged American Paul Whelan with espionage. He has been detained in Moscow for a week. Whelan's lawyer says he has appealed his client's detention and applied for bail.
Joining me now, former director of National Intelligence, CNN national security analyst, James Clapper.
Director, when you see this case -- this man now being held in Russian custody, accused of espionage -- what do you see here?
JAMES CLAPPER, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST, FORMER DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE: Well, I see a tit-for-tat thing here with -- I think Putin was probably personally offended by the Butina case and her guilty plea. And, you know, two weeks later they have snatched somebody.
And the Russians -- one thing they're very good at is contriving evidence, and I think that's what they're doing here. And this is a -- I think it's more because of -- even though the outlook for Butina, I think, is ultimately, I don't think she'll serve very long and then she'll be deported back to Russia. But I think this is just a thing that was offensive to Putin personally so he had to do something about it.
And, Russians aren't bothered with things like rule of law and evidence and that sort of thing, so it's -- and I think it's very unlikely that he was a genuine operative.
BERMAN: You think, perhaps, Putin is looking for some kind of a trade here.
Let me move you around the world, very quickly. There are a number of issues I want to talk to you about. Admiral Stavridis, who was in charge of NATO for a time, was reflecting on the departure from the administration of John Kelly, of Jim Mattis, of -- a while ago -- Henry (sic) McMaster. The so-called generals that once surrounded the president.
And this is what Admiral Stavridis says. He says, "In the military, we say the first duty of an officer is to bring order out of chaos. I'm glad that the generals stepped into the breach. But in the end, each of them had to ask himself, at what point does my serving in this White House become less a guardrail and more an enabler?"
Do you think the admiral had a point?
CLAPPER: Absolutely. I completely agree with Jim and I have said as much months ago with respect -- with specific respect to Jim Mattis.
I'm not an intimate of his but knowing him well enough, I think, that I figured it was a question of time before -- not only because he becomes an enabler, as Jim says, but I think it just reaches -- it's a matter of principle where you just can't live with the direction and the behavior of this administration and particularly, the president. And I think that's what happened, specifically, in the case of Jim Mattis.
BERMAN: So, in general, though, do you wish that these military leaders and even those not serving in the military -- the civilians -- do you feel they should stick around to try to serve as a guardrail or do you think they're making what you see as the problem worse?
CLAPPER: Well, I think -- you know, that's the dilemma you go through. And having been in a like position for 6 1/2 years -- and certainly, there were times when the thought crossed my mind about resigning. And you have to make a judgment as to whether your doing so would cause more harm or disruption than if you stay.
But I think everyone has -- to use the phrase redline when it comes to particularly military officers just given their -- the ethos of the military about principles and integrity and things like that. And I think everybody has a line there and all these people that you mentioned had reached it.
BERMAN: So we have learned -- CNN has learned that the U.S. is scouting out locations for a second summit between President Trump and the North Korean leader Kim Jong Un. We know that President Trump has been waving around to senators and other officials a letter he recently received from Kim Jong Un.
Who's writing this script right now?
CLAPPER: Well, I don't know. I -- what I do think is Kim Jong Un is in the driver's seat here. He's figured out how to appeal to President Trump, mainly through ego, writing him an occasional love letter and agreeing to photo op summits.
[07:55:17] And in the meantime, de facto -- every day goes by, de facto -- North Korea is a nuclear power and that's what they want to be recognized as. And I think that has a lot to do with the temperate behavior of late, which is a good thing.
BERMAN: Yes.
CLAPPER: You know, the North Koreans haven't conducted any underground nuclear tests, they haven't fired off any missiles, and they've been pretty temperate. They're getting along with the South, so that's all good. But in the meantime, we have made zero progress on denuclearization.
BERMAN: Do you think a second summit would serve any purpose?
CLAPPER: Probably not, other than it will, I think, reinforce in the president's mind that he and Kim Jong Un are getting along great which makes it hard, I think, to be very strict with and coercive with the North Koreans.
And so, they haven't done anything towards denuclearization and it's my belief -- long-held belief they never will. And why should they denuclearize and give up all the leverage that they have -- what little they have? And so, I think we're kind of the in the status quo mode which, in some ways, is better than where were say eight months ago.
BERMAN: So, Director, I want to get your take on something the president said a few days ago. It's not brand new but I think we shouldn't pass over this week without drawing attention to it.
He was talking about Afghanistan -- this was in his long cabinet meeting -- and he talked about his view of the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in 1979. I just want to play it for you.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: The reason Russia was in Afghanistan was because terrorists were going into Russia. They were right to be there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: The Soviets were right to be in Afghanistan. You were in the middle of your distinguished military career at the time. Was that the view of the U.S. military and the U.S. government that the Soviets were right to be in Afghanistan?
CLAPPER: I don't think so. I think this was a very unique interpretation of the history of the Soviet Union and Afghanistan and the United States.
The Soviets weren't there because of terrorists. They were there because they just -- they wanted to dominate Afghanistan, so they just invaded. And we were there helping the mujahideen to get rid of them.
So to say that it was -- or to suggest that it was appropriate for the Russians to be there is like I say, a very unique interpretation of history.
BERMAN: Do you think the president knows his history? CLAPPER: I don't know. I don't know what history course he took or -- but that's -- to me, that's not what happened.
BERMAN: All right. Director James Clapper, always a pleasure to have you with us. Happy New Year to you and your family, sir.
CLAPPER: And the same, John, to you and yours.
BERMAN: Thanks so much.
All right. Republicans, this morning, starting to show some cracks as the government shutdown hits the week two mark.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: We're trying to open up government. We're giving him a mature path to do so.
TRUMP: Without a wall, you cannot have border security. It won't work.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cory Gardner is already coming forward. There's other Republican senators in that similar fashion, so you're going to see pressure build.
RICK WILSON, FORMER GOP OPERATIVE: The wall has always been a con for Donald Trump's credulous rube 10-tooth base. It has always been a lie.
MIKE POMPEO, SECRETARY OF STATE: And we should all be very serious about this. President Trump is doing the right thing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Democrats -- they are actually going to start digging in. He's not used to having any oversight.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Democrats' agenda is to come after him, to destroy him and anyone around him. They want to score political points.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY with Alisyn Camerota and John Berman.
BERMAN: Good morning and welcome to your NEW DAY. It is Friday, January fourth, 8:00 in the east.
It is now day 14 of the government shutdown and there are signs -- signs, maybe, the winds could be shifting, perhaps. Two Republicans in the Senate -- did I hedge that enough?
CAMEROTA: Don't go out on a limb -- maybe, perhaps.
BERMAN: Maybe, perhaps --
CAMEROTA: Possibly.
BERMAN: -- could be. But there are signs, maybe.
CAMEROTA: Maybe.
BERMAN: Two Senate Republicans are breaking from President Trump. They say that they want to reopen the government even if it's without funding for the border wall, so that is significant beyond just perhaps.
And it comes after the new Democratic-controlled House passed a plan to fund and reopen the government -- a plan that as of now doesn't seem to be going anywhere in the Senate because the president will not support it.
CAMEROTA: But there are also signs that both sides are dug in. In just hours, President Trump will again meet with congressional leaders in the Situation Room to try to discuss ways to break this impasse. However, both sides seem to be sticking right where they have been for the past 14 days.
Vice President Mike Pence insists quote "No wall, no deal" end quote -- while the new Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi --
