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GOP Senators Break With Trump on Shutdown Strategy; Interview with House Judiciary Committee Chairman Jerry Nadler; Government Shutdown Continues over Border Wall Funding; New Democratic Representative Rashida Tlaib Makes Controversial Comment on Impeaching President Trump. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired January 04, 2019 - 8:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00] ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: -- right where they have been for the past 14 days. Vice President Mike Pence insists, quote, no wall, no deal, end quote, while the new speaker of the House, Nancy Pelosi, says we're not doing a wall. So what happens with this game of chicken? It all comes as the Trump administration faces oversight from House Democrats who have introduced a bill to protect Special Counsel Robert Mueller and his investigation.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: So joining us now is New York Democratic Congressman Jerry Nadler, the new chair of the House Judiciary Committee, who introduced that measure Alisyn just spoke of moments ago to protect Robert Mueller. Mr. Chairman, why is that necessary today, and why is it necessary to introduce it given the fact you know the Senate will never pass it and that the president certainly will never sign it?

REP. JERRY NADLER, (D) CHAIRMAN, HOUSE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: Well, it's necessary to introduce the bill to show our determination that we must protect the Mueller investigation from Republican attempts to interfere with it, from White House attempts to interfere with it. The new Democratic majority will now put an end to the Republican attempts to sabotage and undermine the Mueller investigation. There will be real consequences at this point for any further such attempts.

We do expect that when Mueller issues his report the report will go to the House Judiciary Committee, because that's our charge, and we will make sure it is public. If there is any problem we will subpoena it if necessary, but we will get, the Judiciary Committee will get that report and make sure the American people knows what's in it.

With that said, we are not going to wait for the Mueller report. There is plenty for the Judiciary Committee to look into right now, specifically the attempt to have a massive fraud on the American people in terms of rigging an American presidential election and undermining the integrity of that election. And we have to look into that, whether it's by hush payments or by collusion with Russians or by any other means. We have to look into that.

BERMAN: Well, specifically -- sorry. There is a number of things I want to ask you.

NADLER: And we have to look into the continuing obstructions of justice.

BERMAN: You just put in a list, a whole menu of things that you want your committee to look into. But very specifically, what will you investigate? Are you talking about the Russian hacks or the Russian attacks on the election? Are you talking about the suggestion or the investigation into whether or not the Trump campaign colluded? Specifically, what are you talking about?

NADLER: All of that is part of it. We know about the Russian hacks. There's very little to investigate there. But, yes, the Trump campaign's participation in that plot by the Russians. The obstruction, the interference with the Justice Department in its investigation, which is why we have to have Whitaker come before us.

BERMAN: OK, so let me talk about Matt Whitaker, and then I have a follow up question on that. Matt Whitaker, who is the acting attorney general, we just learned met with former attorney general Ed Meese and told the former attorney general that there is still an investigation going on into the Clinton Foundation and activities surrounding Hillary Clinton during the campaign. The acting attorney general told a former attorney general, briefed him about an ongoing investigation. Do you have concerns about that?

NADLER: Well, I don't know anything about that. But I'm not aware of any such investigation, or if they are trying to revive dormant investigations or a concluded investigation. But, yes, I would have concerns about telling people about that, about ongoing investigations. I have concerned about improper communications right now between the White House and the Department of Justice in which the White House is attempting to squelch investigations and to interfere with Justice. And to look into those questions is why we must have Whitaker in front of the Judiciary Committee. As you know, he's agreed to appear, but they seem to be dragging their feet on appropriate dates. But if we have to, we will subpoena him.

BERMAN: If you have to, you will subpoena him.

NADLER: Absolutely.

BERMAN: How long will you wait? How long will you wait?

NADLER: I don't know that. We'll see that. Not too long.

BERMAN: Have you seen any sign yet that the acting attorney general has interfered in any way in the Mueller investigation?

NADLER: Well, we haven't seen signs yet that he personally has. We have certainly seen signs that the Trump administration has. Every time the president says that the Mueller investigation is a witch hunt, every time he demands specific things, that they not look into this, that they draw red lines, that's an obstruction of justice. That's an interference into an ongoing criminal investigation.

BERMAN: So newly elected Representative Rashida Tlaib, yesterday she wrote an op-ed calling for the impeachment of President Trump. That's what she wrote. Then last night she said this. I want to play it for you.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. RASHIDA TLAIB, (D) MICHIGAN: And when your son looks at you and says, mama, look, you want. Bullies don't win. And I said, baby, they don't, because we're going to go in there and we're going to impeach the mother --

(APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: We're going to impeach the mother-blanker she said. Do you approve of that language, first of all?

[08:05:03] NADLER: No, I don't really like that kind of language. But more to the point, I disagree with what she said. It is too early to talk about that intelligently. We have to follow the facts, we have to get the facts. That's why it is important to protect the Mueller investigation. That's why it's important to do our own inquiry. We have to get the facts. And we'll see where the facts lead. And maybe that will lead to impeachment. Maybe it won't. But it's much too early, and we don't have all the facts now. And we must have the facts in order to say that impeachment, which is a defense, it's not an assault on the president. Impeachment is an defense of the America republic, of the separation of powers, of liberty, et cetera. Whether that is necessary can only be determined when you have all the facts, and we don't have them yet.

BERMAN: You don't have them yet. You're waiting for the Mueller investigation.

NADLER: And for our own investigations, too.

BERMAN: I'm also heard you say that you would like to see some sign of Republicans feeling there should be impeachment before you would go out on a limb. Is that true?

NADLER: What I've said is that impeachment can't be partisan, and that you shouldn't do an impeachment unless you believe that you have such evidence, such great evidence of such terrible deeds that when that evidence is laid out to the American people you will probably get an appreciable fraction of the voters who supported the president to agree that you had to do it so that you don't have a situation where for the next 30 years half of the country is saying to the other half, we won the election. You stole it. You have to believe that you have such facts and such evidence of such facts that you can show that enough people will be persuaded so that you don't divide the country.

BERMAN: And today, I know it's not over, but today, do you have those facts or that evidence?

NADLER: No, we do not have that yet. And that's why I said, we're far from finishing the inquiry. We have to see what the Mueller report says. That has to come to the Judiciary Committee so that we can relay to the American people and we can look into it and we have to do our own investigations. There is a lot of smoke. How much fire there remains to be determined.

BERMAN: The government is shut down this morning, partially shut down, day 14. How is this going to end, congressman?

NADLER: Well, we in the House -- the Democratic majority in the House with a few Republican supporters yesterday showed the roadmap to an end. We passed the bill to reopen, to appropriate money for all the government departments except the Department of Homeland Security, which is the only place there is any disagreement. So we opened all the other government departments, put most of the workers back to work, most of the private contractors back to work. And that can be done while the question of the wall, which is what is fanning this disagreement, is limited to the one bill, the Department of Homeland Security appropriations bill, in which it is located. There is absolutely no reason why other bills shouldn't be passed. They passed the Senate unanimously a few weeks ago. We passed them yesterday. The Senate should take them up again.

If the Senate or the president doesn't take those bills up, all they are saying if we want to use this shutdown, this unnecessary shutdown, which has nothing to do with the wall, to apply pressure on the American people to make people who depend on government or work for government miserable to develop political pressure on the question of the wall. That's wrong. Let me just say, it is wrong to try to blackmail the American people by this kind of pressure. It is wrong to hold the government and people who depend on government services or work for the government hostage to make a political point.

BERMAN: Sean Hannity says the president is willing to negotiate on Dreamers and DACA. Do you feel that there is ground there for compromise?

NADLER: Well, the president agreed a couple years ago on DACA. He said he should legalize or regularize their status, and we certainly should. I don't see why that gets into a discussion of the wall. The wall is a waste of $25 or $30 billion.

BERMAN: But it is a waste of -- would you agree to more than $1.3 billion for border fencing or a barrier if it is not a concrete wall?

NADLER: If it is -- the amount for border security was $1.3 or $1.6 billion for security is negotiable, but not a wall. A wall is just a stupid waste of money.

BERMAN: A fence?

NADLER: Maybe in some places. Not a 700-mile fence.

BERMAN: All right, Congressman Jerry Nadler, chairman of the Judiciary Committee, thanks so much for joining us this morning. Appreciate your help.

NADLER: Thank you.

BERMAN: Alisyn?

CAMEROTA: I really think by the end of the program, you and I will solve it.

BERMAN: So they have more money for a fence as long as it is not a wall.

CAMEROTA: Yes. And we have agreement at this point from both sides. I'm going to call the White House any minute. But first I have to do this.

BERMAN: The switchboard is not open. Shutdown.

CAMEROTA: Oh, well.

Two Senate Republicans say it's time to end the shutdown. Will that move the needle today?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: OK. Newly sworn in Democratic Congresswoman Rashida Tlaib is raising eyebrows with a profane remark about President Trump.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. RASHIDA TLAIB, (D) MICHIGAN: And when your son looks at you and says, mama, look, you want. Bullies don't win. And I said, baby, they don't, because we're going to go in there and we're going to impeach the mother --

(APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: White House Press Secretary Sarah Sanders responded to that moments ago. Here she is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SARAH SANDERS, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Look, you are not going to impeach this president when he's had two of the most success years that any president has had in modern history. The only reason they want to come after this president is because they know that they can't beat him. They can't beat him when it comes to a policy debate and they're not going to beat him when it comes to 2020. They have no solutions for America. People are sick and tired of playing politics. They want them to come to Washington and actually work with the president to get something done.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Joining us now to discuss this and so much more, S.E. Cupp, David Axelrod, and Scott Jennings. The president tweeted something exactly the same, S.E., that that's why she is saying something like that, because he's been too successful. The past two years have been too successful. I know you are tired of winning.

S.E. CUPP, POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I am tired of all the winning.

(LAUGHTER)

CAMEROTA: You're tired of all the winning, number one. So that's their talking point today about why people are talking about impeachment already.

CUPP: I actually really liked Jerry Nadler's talking point. You just had him on. He said I don't like that language, and I don't think she's right that you can go after impeachment before the evidence is there. I think that's the right response to this. This is awful language. And I know everyone will say, but Trump. I agree. I'm with you. Trump has coarsened the language around politics to a really disturbing effect. The response should not be to match it.

S.E. CUPP, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: The response should be to rise above it and present clear policy arguments and even emotional arguments that don't have to go down to the basement of MF-er.

[18:15:06] But Jerry Nadler is right. It's too early for impeachment and that's I think the more important about what you said.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Can you imagine 10 years ago, S.E. Cupp, with the caption, Jerry Nadler is right?

CUPP: It is the upside down, John?

BERMAN: I never thought I would see the day.

David Axelrod, I will note that people on Twitter, liberals don't like we are suggesting there is something wrong with Representative Tlaib they should impeach the motherblanker. People are saying it was just locker room talk. It is interesting.

But, David, if someone had said this about your former boss, President Obama, if a Republican member of Congress had said that about President Obama, it would have been a big deal.

DAVID AXELROD, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: It would have been a big deal. And I don't think it was the right thing to do. But there were members on the Republican side who did things like that and were called out for it.

Look, I think impeachment -- this has been a long running debate within the Democratic party. I think impeachment can't be a kind of casual political tool. It has to be done with -- I think Nadler was right. It has to be done on the basis of very, very clear evidence and only under certain circumstances. Otherwise, it becomes one more tool in the political tool box and every president is going to face that.

So, I actually think the approach Nadler laid out is the right approach. Wait to see what Mueller has to say, wait and see what's in his report, and if it rises to the level that you can make a clear case to 100 percent of the country that the president has violated his oath, then you move forward.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Scott, I am just curious about the wording she used. I know all of our innocent ears are very offended this morning. But I am curious about what S.E. said, which is the coarsening of dialogue. Is decorum dead? Or am I overstating it?

SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, what I thought was noteworthy about what she claimed to have said is that she claimed to have said it to her child. I mean, this wasn't saying it to a room full of partisans off the cuff. This was recounting her own words to her child, I mean, I don't know if it has to do with our political discourse, but makes me wonder how she speaks to her child.

I mean, with S.E. Cupp and Jerry Nadler on the same page, all I can say is Donald Trump is the hell of a drug. I mean, it's really amazing to me that Jerry Nadler's comments about impeachment, when earlier in the interview, right out of the gate he said we're not going to wait for the Mueller report. That was a direct quote. Then he went on to list all the things he was going to do before the Mueller report even comes out.

Nancy Pelosi is not going to be able to hold these new folks. You have these new freshmen that want to impeach the president. Not just because they do, because their supporters do. Almost 80 percent of Democrats in exit polls in the midterms said they want Democrats start impeachment proceedings. This issue is on the front burner whether Pelosi likes it or not.

BERMAN: Jerry Nadler was saying the areas he was going to investigate. One of them, first and foremost, is the acting attorney general Matt Whitaker, I think, you know, Chairman Nadler, Chairman Schiff, these new upcoming representatives, they have a clear path forward to try to restrain some of the members here.

And we'll see if they're successful. I think Nancy Pelosi is going to try. She got other things on her mind as well.

CAMEROTA: I also think that his point is that you don't need the Mueller report to investigate what they see is malfeasance already.

BERMAN: Congressional oversight, which is something that in theory could have happened.

JENNINGS: Democrats think they don't need the Mueller report to impeach the president. Sherman has already filed impeachment articles on the day Nancy Pelosi was sworn in. These Democrats don't believe they need the Mueller report. They think they can do it now.

BERMAN: Some Democrats, not the leadership. And the counter to that is there were plenty of Republicans who didn't think we needed Mueller, period.

So that's where we are today. I think the Mueller report will come. We will see it. I think these congressional investigations will happen as well.

Let's talk shutdown, shall we?

CAMEROTA: OK. David Axelrod, the fact that two Republicans are publicly saying we don't need a wall, do you think that moves the needle today?

AXELROD: Look, I think Democrats put pressure on Republicans in the Senate, because they're sending them essentially what they asked for, which is they are funding those agencies on which Republicans and Democrats agreed on a number to fund and they're saying let's defer this issue of homeland security until -- for a month while we negotiate that. Let's not hold the rest of the government hostage. That's an inanimately reasonable position.

And it puts a lot of pressure on a Collins, on a Gardner who are in potentially tough races in 2020, which is why I think Mitch McConnell is tiptoeing around this issue. Scott would know better than I. He's close to the leader in the Senate.

[08:20:00] But he doesn't want them to have to walk the plank and then have the president veto those bills.

The problem here is that the president believes that he's winning on this issue because of the people who he listens to and in right wing media, he's getting a lot of that attaboys. If he believes that this is a political loser for him, I don't think he cares about people not getting paid, I don't think he cares about garbage mounting up in state parks. I don't think he cares about that.

I think that he thinks that he's got a good political formula here because he looks like he's standing up for the wall.

BERMAN: And let Scott wait for a moment on his response from Mitch McConnell.

But, S.E., we had our Alex Burns and M.J. and their Republican sources were telling them they don't believe, Republicans do not believe, the president will win here ultimately.

CUPP: Uh-huh. I'm sure that's true. Democrats have absolutely no incentive to cave. And so, I think if anyone is going to win, this game of chicken, it is going to be Democrats.

I do think that Axe is right about the president's motivations for digging in his heels. He's listening to right wing media. He's listening to folks like Sean Hannity and Fox News and Rush Limbaugh.

But I think we should be a little cautious about influential that group really is over him and his base. To pretend there is any real orthodoxy here for Trump or his supporters, I think is sort of overstating. If Trump caves and gets some kind of wall or it's half a wall or it's not all the funding he wanted for some kind of wall, he'll call it something else, he'll blame something else and I think his supporters will go along with him.

Maybe Ann Coulter will be disappointed. But, you know, she's as influential over his base as I am. You know, if it's an ultimatum between following Ann Coulter over into the Dem side and following Trump into the 2020 re-elect, they're going with Trump.

The question is everyone else. Everyone else who is not with Trump or on the far left. When do they get tired of this? When do they get tired of the blame of chicken and whom do they blame? That will I think determine who sort of caves first.

CAMEROTA: So, Scott, what is Mitch McConnell going to do?

JENNINGS: Well, he needs something that could attract 60 votes and a presidential signature. I think the way McConnell and Trump could flip the script today is to go ahead and propose what Sean Hannity hinted at last night, and that's trade DACA for the wall.

Now, I know Democrats are saying, well, that deal is off the table. We're already -- that was a year ago. We're not there now.

But it strikes me as crazy they wouldn't go $5 billion for a wall and a permanent solution for the Dreamers when they were ready to do $25 billion for the Dreamers before. They can go out and say, look, we got the president from 25 to 5 and we fix the Dreamers, the president can say he got his wall. This is a way to solve two big problems, fixing Donald Trump's obsession with the wall and fixing a real problem, which is getting a solution for these Dreamers.

If Democrats rejected that, it would be the height in my opinion, of political malpractice, because they put a lot of emotional energy, a lot of political energy into saying we are for you Dreamers. We're going to vote against it or to walk away from it I think would be crazy.

BERMAN: So, David, Scott is pointing at this Hannity trial balloon. How do you think Democrats will react to that?

AXELROD: Well, Hannity being a principal presidential adviser, we have to take it seriously. And I'm sure Scott and I could sit here and probably work this out. I do think that there is something in that.

JENNINGS: It would take about 30 seconds.

AXELROD: OK. Yes, I think that there is something in that as a solution, and it ought to be on the table. But I think Democrats are also right to say that if this is the first step in the -- you know, in this $25 billion project of the president's then that would be a mistake. So they need to find a way to define what that $5 billion is that is acceptable to both sides and perhaps there is a solution there if the other piece is a solution to the DACA situation, which is extraordinarily important.

CAMEROTA: I hope they're all listening.

David Axelrod, Scott Jennings, S.E. --

JENNINGS: He is completely right about this. If the Democrats can find a way to define the $5 billion in a way their people can accept, he's completely right on it.

CAMEROTA: Drop the mic. We're done.

CUPPS: We solved all the problems.

CAMEROTA: We solved all the problems. I know.

Have a good day.

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: Meanwhile --

AXELROD: We're done for the day, Scott.

CAMEROTA: Thank you.

CUPP: I got a show tomorrow, Jerry. You're welcome to come on.

CAMEROTA: Thank you, guys, very much.

All right. Now to this. It is only his second day on the job, and there is already a target on his back.

[08:25:01] We're going to speak to a Utah Democrat about how he plans to represent his deep red district, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: The new Democrat controlled House passing a spending package to reopen the federal government without any funding for President Trump's border wall. It was symbolic since the president has said he will veto it. But what will happen with negotiations today?

Joining us now is newly sworn in Democratic Congressman Ben McAdams of Utah. He had one of the biggest upsets of the midterm, flipping a ruby red seat blue.

Good morning, Congressman.

REP. BEN MCADAMS (D), UTAH: Good morning.

CAMEROTA: OK. Let's start at the beginning. Yesterday, you voted against Nancy Pelosi to be speaker of the House. Why didn't you support her?

MCADAMS: You know, throughout my campaign, I said I wanted to see new leadership from both parties in Washington. And so, that was simply fulfilling the promise to deliver on that expectation from my district that we would see new leadership and new ideas in Washington.

CAMEROTA: So, do you think she can be an effective leader?

MCADAMS: You know, I think now that the election is passed, I'm going to work with both sides, with the new speaker, work with Republicans and Democrats. I think we have got enough divisiveness over the last several years. It is time to move this country forward to find common ground and really address and try to tackle some of the tough issues that we're facing as a country.