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S.E. Cupp Unfiltered

Senator Elizabeth Warren's Candidacy Is DOA; White House Officials And Senior Congressional Aides Met Earlier Today; Senator Mitt Romney Picked A Fight With Trump; Ellen Enthusiastically Lobbied For Hart Saying He Should Be Rehired For Host Of The Oscars. Aired 6- 7p ET

Aired January 05, 2019 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[18:00:00] S.E. CUPP, CNN HOST: Welcome to UNFILTERED.

Here is tonight's headlines.

She's running, probably. While you spent the day taking down the Christmas tree or maybe working off those holiday pounds, Massachusetts Senator, Elizabeth Warren, spent the day making the rounds in Iowa as she continues to test the waters of a potential Presidential bid.

She held a series of meetings and events today and has another coming up in just over an hour. The trip comes a less than a week after announcing the formation of a Presidential exploratory committee. So how is she doing?

CNN national political correspondent M.J. Lee is in Iowa following the Warren pregame campaign. That is what I'm going to call it anyway.

M.J., how did it all go today?

M. J. LEE, CNN NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it has been a hectic weekend, S.E. She has had four events in the course of around 24 hours. She's going to have the final event tomorrow before she flies out of the state. And what she is really doing to point out the obvious is that she is introducing herself to the people of Iowa.

This weekend, this particularly important if you keep in mind that she hasn't been here since 2014. So for a lot of these people, not only is she is sort of reminding them of who she is, she is probably telling them actually for the first time of who she is and what the issues are that are important to her and will be important to her eventual Presidential campaign.

And as you know, S.E., very well, the people of Iowa are famous for wanting to get to know their candidates very, very well. And Senator Warren has been taking questions from audience members at each of her stops.

And I just want to talk about one question that she got at an earlier stop today at Sioux City. The audience member got up and asked her about the DNA test results that she decided to release a couple of weeks ago that was so controversial. And the way that the audience member asked the question was so telling, I thought. Not only did they ask about the DNA test results, they also ask why did you give President Donald Trump fodder to bully you even more? I just want you to listen to how she responded to that question.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D), MASSACHUSETTS: I am not a person of color. I am not a citizen of a tribe. Tribal citizenship is very different from ancestry. Tribes and only tribes determine tribal citizenship and I respect that difference.

My decision was, I'm just going to put it all out there. It took a while, but just put it all out there. All my hiring records, including a DNA test, it's out there. It is online. Anybody can look at it. It's there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEE: Now, what was fascinating was that Senator Warren also went on to say that she doesn't think she has the power to stop President Trump from hurling insults at her and then an audience member actually responded to that by saying, yes you can. And that moment was kind of perfectly captured this balancing act that Senator Warren and I think other Democratic candidates are going to have to juggle.

There are voters across the country who feel like they want their Democratic candidate to directly take on President Trump. And then there are going to be plenty of other people who do not want their Democratic candidates to engage President Trump in his own game. So that is something that I think a lot of Democratic candidates will have to figure out just how they want to play that.

And on a final note and again, to point out something that's obvious, given how early we are in the 2020 cycle, a lot of the folks that we are talking to this weekend, they simply say they are undecided. They want to get to know these candidates better over the next couple of months and actually, a year or so, since that's how far away the Iowa caucus is and there's a lot of candidates potentially coming through this state.

So again, this is just the first step in what is going to be a pretty long campaign for all of us and Senator Warren making sure that she wants to make a good first impression here.

CUPP: So fascinating and it's just getting started. M.J., thanks. We will be talking to you again, I'm sure over the course of all of this.

OK, sticking with Elizabeth Warren's Presidential bid, here's tonight's other headline. I'm with her? Warren may be among the earliest to enter the fray but could be among the earliest to fail. Don't take my word for it, just ask Democrats.

According to a CNN poll of Democratic voters conducted in early December, Senator Warren places seventh in a crowded field of potential Democratic candidates, a backslide from a month earlier when she was polling in fourth place. But if you don't believe them, well, just ask voters in her own state.

Back in September, 58 percent of likely Massachusetts voters said they believed Warren shouldn't even run for President with only 32 percent supporting a potential Warren run. That according to a Suffolk University political research center Boston globe poll.

And if that's not convincing enough, her hometown paper, "the Boston Globe," urged Warren not to run just a month ago. The globe's editorial board argued that Warren's moment had passed and that she should step aside for a less divisive figure.

The globe wrote, while Warren is an effective and impactful Senator with an important voice nationally, she has become a divisive figure, a unifying voice is what the country needs right now after the polarizing politics of Donald Trump.

Look. Even her own inner circle may know that it's over before it's begun. Warren's longtime adviser and 2012 campaign architect Mindy Myers was reportedly speaking to several rival campaigns and had planned to meet with Beto O'Rourke back in December. So what do they all know that maybe she doesn't?

Here's the deal. Elizabeth Warren may have been a Democratic star at one point, going from her humble Harvard professor roots to leader of the anti-banker posse, even taking credit at one point for the quote "intellectual foundation" of the occupy wall street movement. Yes, that's how she talks.

But in the years that have followed, her national appeal has waned considerably. Now frankly, it's hard to see what boxes she checks at all. Take a look. Excitement? No. Polls show there's far more support for former vice president Joe Biden, Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders, New Jersey senator Cory Booker and even Texas congressman Beto O'Rourke who until a year ago, most people had never heard of.

Well, what about broad appeal? Hardly. Warren's far left progressivism may be a fan favorite in the primaries but her coastal politics and unrelatability (ph) make her a non-starter for wide swaths of voters in a general.

But finally, the thing that matters most in presidential elections to voters, authenticity. We all remember the DNA test debacle in which she boasted of her Oklahoma roots, a native American ties and then released a DNA test to prove her native heritage, which backfired spectacularly as she is no meaningful native American.

I have said it before, Democrats need a candidate who can beat Donald Trump. She has proven she cannot. For that reason alone, Democrats can do better. Disagree? OK, let's discuss.

Here to tell me why Elizabeth Warren should be the 2020 Democratic nominee, just kidding, our CNN political commentator, former senior adviser to President Obama, cohost of "Pod Save America" Dan Pfeiffer and former national press secretary for Bernie Sanders, 2016 Symone Sanders.

I would not put you, guys, in that position. I am kidding, of course. I know it is way too early. OK.

But Dan, to me, even this early, it seems like Warren's candidacy is DOA. Do you honestly think she's the Democrat's best bet to beat Donald Trump?

[18:07:42] DAN PFEIFFER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I have no idea if she is the best bet to beat Donald Trump but neither does anyone else. And that's what the whole process is about. Look, she has challenges but so does every other single person who is running. And it's not like the person that they will running against Donald Trump is some sort of like perfect political candidate designed in a lab. He has flaws as well I'm told.

CUPP: Right.

PFEIFFER: And so we are going to have to see this play itself out and she is going to make her case and she has real political strengths and challenges and so I cannot tell you.

CUPP: Of course, and Dan, Dan, I get you hedging. I get it. I understand. It's early. Why would anyone come out this early to back anyone? But coming in, and I said this same thing of Hillary Clinton, coming into the 2016 election, Hillary Clinton had known challenges. We couldn't know some of the stuff that was going to fall in her path but she had known challenges. Elizabeth Warren has some known challenges that I think make her a very unattractive candidate.

PFEIFFER: I mean, I think that is the -- the voters will have to decide that and you really just don't know. There are things I really like about Elizabeth Warren's candidacy because probably has the best most popular finely honed economic message of anyone who is thinking of running and that will be very valuable.

There are other challenges. And the DNA test is something she is going to have to navigate. I don't think it is going to be a hugely damaging problem but it is something - and she has to answer questions about it.

CUPP: Well, Symone, to Dan's point, having the most popular economic message. I mean, it's Bernie Sanders' message. And to me, from where I stand, Bernie is everything Warren is but better. He is more energizing, more unifying and certainly more authentic. Do you think she can capture his coalition and his appeal if in fact he decides not to run?

SYMONE SANDERS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: We don't know. And I know it sounds like hedging, S.E., I know. But we just do know.

Look. Frankly, I like Elizabeth Warren but I like a lot of potential 2020 contenders. And yes, she is going to have to continue to answer questions about the DNA test, why did you do it, what does this mean?

But you know what, I want to say I really liked her answer today. And I liked it because I think that's what a lot of people across the country not only want but need to hear. She said I am not a person of color. They need to hear her say, I am not a person of color. I understand, even though like it's clear.

[18:10:10] CUPP: It's absurd. It's absurd that she has to say that, Symone.

SANDERS: It is absurd but it is also absurd that, you know, the President continues to hurl racial slur at her. And that she felt the need to address his racial slur. It's absurd we are having a conversation about is she the best, you know, person to defeat Donald Trump when she is not even officially in the race yet. So I just think that this is going to be a long, very long but robust Democratic primary. And this is exactly what I think the base and the Democratic Party needs.

CUPP: So Dan, some of the changes to the process could impact the process like Elizabeth Warren, Bernie Sanders, Joe Biden. Some of the caucus states are now going to be primaries which could hurt people with various or condensed passionate fan bases like Bernie Sanders, for example. Likewise, moving California up in the primary calendar could make it harder for moderate candidates like Joe Biden to get through primary, if they have to go through California earlier. What kind of candidate do you think the new math and new system favors?

PFEIFFER: This is sort of I think a counterintuitive take of how a lot of Democrats think about this. I think all the changes that put in place actually make Iowa more important than it's ever been before. I'm not saying that's a good thing. I think there are problems with it. But by moving California and Texas up, which are two states that are too big to organize that scale for a primary candidate and too expensive turn out to get your name idea.

The best way to catapult yourself into the first tier is to win Iowa. And so candidates who can run and win in Iowa are going to be at a premium here. Elizabeth Warren, to her credit, is out there early and also hired one of the engineers, Emily Parcel of Barack Obama's 2008 Iowa caucus victory.

CUPP: That's right.

PFEIFFER: So she is off to a good start there. But I think being able to run an organized compelling Iowa campaign is critical success.

CUPP: Interesting take.

OK. So Symone, the existential question Democrats will have to confront for the next year plus, I will I'm sure ask it of you a thousand times. Do you run a progressive version of Trump targeting the energy of the base or do you run someone who can capture as many disparate voters as possible from moderates to independents to even maybe some disaffected Republicans? What's your thought?

SANDERS: My thought is that you run a person, well one, my thought is that the Democratic primary voters pick who the Democratic nominee will be. And I think what Democratic primary voters want is someone who is going to come into their state, come into their community, their living room and tell you exactly who they are and what they believe in and not just how bad Donald Trump is because I think we learned in 2016, that's not what voters wanted to hear. But frankly, what is their vision for the future and how do they plan to get it done. And I think the person that can effectively articulate that to the American people, not to the American people, not just in places like Iowa, South Carolina, Nevada but also in Appalachia, in places like (INAUDIBLE), Nebraska and the great state (INAUDIBLE).

You have to be able to talk to everyone. And they may not like what you have to say but if they believe that you are authentic in your message, they may just decide to vote for you.

CUPP: Dan, Symone, let's do this again for the next two years. What do you say? Thanks for coming.

PFEIFFER: Sounds like a plan.

SANDERS: I'm down. I'm down.

CUPP: Thanks guys.

The vice president led a meeting on the shutdown today but did he make any progress? I will have the latest next.

Coming up, should speaker Pelosi try to rein in some of the freshmen lawmakers in her party?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:16:53] CUPP: White House officials and senior congressional aides met earlier today in an attempt to find some common ground and bring an end to the two week old government shutdown. The meeting which was overseen by vice president Mike Pence lasted over two hours but it lacked one key ingredient, any lawmakers in a position to make a deal. So what came of today's meeting?

For the latest, let me bring in CNN correspondent Boris Sanchez.

Boris, what are you hearing coming out of this meeting?

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Hey, S.E.

Yes, according to a source on Capitol Hill, perhaps the rosiest picture that we have gotten so far of what transpired during this meeting today is that talks move forward with baby steps indicating that Democrats ask Republicans to provide them with official justification for spending $5.6 billion on the President's long promised border wall.

Essentially what we heard is that Republicans said we will get back to you. They promised that there would be a response either later today or tomorrow when both sides are expected to meet.

We should point out, other officials didn't really have the view that much progress was made. Though vice president Mike Pence in a statement said that talks were productive, the acting chief of staff Mick Mulvaney dismissed any productivity in today's talks. He clearly was frustrated when he spoke to Jake Tapper during an interview shortly after the meeting took place. He believes that Democrats are simply trying to stall.

In the meantime, we got a statement from House speaker Nancy Pelosi indicating that Democrats would vote on a number of individual bills that would appropriate money to specific parts of the government that are closed like the treasury department and the IRS, et cetera. There is no indication though, S.E., that the Senate would take this up or the President would sign off on it.

CUPP: And Boris, while I have you, thousands of federal employees, as you know, have been furloughed or they are just not getting paid. If any are watching, what's the latest news for them? Where do they stand?

SANCHEZ: Yes. There are still some 800,000 federal workers who are either furloughed or without pay. And the two week pay period that just ended yesterday covers the entire shutdown. So when they are scheduled to get a check next week on January 11th, they are likely going to see the shutdown reflected in that paycheck or in a lack of a paycheck.

Keep in mind, this is going to continue to put pressure on administration officials, despite the fact that the President has said that he believes these unpaid workers support him. He has also said that most of them are Democrats, not providing any evidence for either.

Also, according to the bureau of labor statistics, some 80 percent of federal workers live outside of Washington, D.C., the surrounding area. So there are a lot of federal workers in Trump country that are going to be feeling the effects of this. We will see if it has any effect on how the President ends up responding and whether that leads to any progress during these talks, S.E.

CUPP: Boris, thanks. We will keep our eye on any developments over the course of our hour, of course.

Meanwhile, as incoming freshmen were sworn in earlier this week, Nancy Pelosi faced some new challenges as speaker, controlling her raucous caucus.

First off was Michigan Congresswoman Rashida Talib's colorful comments earlier this week.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. RASHIDA TLAIB (D), MICHIGAN: Now when your son looks at you and says, mama, look, you won, bullies don't win. And I said baby, they don't because we are going to go in there. We are going to impeach the (bleep).

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[18:20:06] CUPP: The statement wound up generating headlines like this one, not exactly the type of thing Nancy Pelosi was hoping to kick off the second term as speaker, I'm sure. Then there was New York congressman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez who

during her "60 Minutes' interview with Anderson Cooper floated a 70 percent tax rate on the wealthy, 70 percent to fund quote "green new deal."

And California congressman Brad Sherman introduced articles of impeachment for Donald Trump directly contradicting what Pelosi and other Democratic House leaders have been saying about waiting for the results of the Mueller investigation.

All of this has led to headlines like these over the past 48 hours. You know, I don't buy it though. Hand wringing over Pelosi quote- unquote "problem with her members" is a waste of time. This is all going according to plan for the new speaker. She gets to play the good cop. Reassuring moderates that she is focus on legislating, not impeaching the President while the kids satisfy the far-left clamoring for Trump's ouster and using as much profanity as they think is necessary. Trust me, the kids are all right.

OK. Let me bring in Republican strategist, CNN commentator Doug Heye and former senior adviser, Democratic National Committee democratic strategist Doug Thornell.

To the two Dougs, OK.

Doug Thornell, let me start with you. When Pelosi says she doesn't like the language that Tlaib used about the President, doesn't she just mean she wouldn't use it but you go right ahead?

DOUG THORNELL, FORMER SENIOR ADVISER, DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL COMMITTEE: Well. No, look, I just think she really believes that. I mean, look. At the same time, I mean, if we look at what the congresswoman said, you know, it pales in comparison to what Donald Trump has said over and over again. And I think that you saw Democrats, you saw Democrats, you saw Nancy Pelosi and you saw Elijah Cummings and others said say that the words are unfortunate. It did serve as a bit of a minor distraction. But at the end of the day, I think it's hard to be outraged about her language when you have a president who talks about s-hole countries in Africa and brags about assaulting women, so.

CUPP: Yes, I hear you. I have heard this before. I think that's exactly why you should be offended by it. It's called intellectual consistency.

THORNELL: And I totally agree with you.

CUPP: well, let me go to other Doug -- Doug Heye. You know me. I'm not a church goer. I'm not religious.

DOUG HEYE, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: I'm still working on you.

CUPP: Yes, sure. Keep trying. My religion is intellectual consistency. I pray at the church of intellectual honesty. I don't always measure up. Sometimes I fail. When I do, I say three hail crowd hammers and try to do better the next time. But listen, I hate what Rashida Tlaib said. I hate it because I think

it's beneath the office. I think it is a lazy. I don't think it's brave to call the President of the United States an m-fer (ph) and I said the same of Trump and continue to say I think his language is offensive. How are people justifying this sort of double standard?

HEYE: Well, the double standard is based on who it was aimed at. If you go back to 2016, a big part of the Hillary Clinton's campaign's message was children are watching. And what were children watching?

CUPP: Right.

HEYE: Awful rhetoric from potentially and then became the president of the United States.

CUPP: Yes.

HEYE: But ultimately, Donald Trump has changed not just the presidency and how Republicans operate, he has changed how Democrats operate.

CUPP: Apparently.

HEYE: The latest comments are just the latest comments. If you look at Kamala Harris, Kristen Gillibrand, DNC chairman Tom Perez, they have all basically mimicked Donald Trump by using f-bombs in their speeches. This is not just the new normal, it's unfortunate, but it's also the new normal.

CUPP: Yes. I think it is all gross. And I think if you are intellectually consistent, you should say, it's all gross.

Doug Thornell, let's turn to - yes, go ahead.

THORNELL: I just want to say, we actually did see that from Democrats. You did see Nancy Pelosi come out. You did see Elijah Cummings. You saw Clyburn. You saw leaders within the party say that.

CUPP: You did, but you also had others saying, look, you have other says, look, things have changed. Donald Trump, you just said it.

THORNELL: No, I was making the point of intellectual consistency. You should be outraged about the President. You should, but my point is if you're a Republican making these criticisms of this congresswoman, you also need to be making the same criticisms of your President.

CUPP: Happy to.

THORNELL: I'm talking about you S.E., Doug. You guys do that. I'm just talking about a lot of his defenders in Congress. And they just let this stuff go. Most of the time, Paul Ryan acts like he doesn't even hear it. He is like I didn't see in the newspaper and that's just craziness.

CUPP: He is out. We have got a new speaker.

But let's talk about one person who did defend it, Alexandria Ocasio- Cortez. She tweeted at the defense of her sis at the bar. I think Republicans like to pick on AOC because it is easy. It's not hard to do. Although, I happen to think that video of her dancing was pretty adorable.

But it should also be said, she courts attention and she is getting it. She has posted about her, you know, healthy me days. She complains about not getting recognized by the police. She wants attention, she is getting. Is this a kind of like victimless crime where both Republicans and AOC, mutually benefit from, you know, their mudslinging and her, like clapping back at them on twitter.

[18:25:34] THORNELL: Well, I think she has been pretty adept at clapping back. I'm not really quite sure what the obsession is that people on the far right have with Ocasio-Cortez. I mean, if the message or if the strategy going into 2020 is to sort of go after a freshman member of the new Democratic majority, I think there is going to be some serious problems. They probably need to get Doug Heye back in there.

CUPP: Before we --

THORNELL: So I just think that they probably have to figure out what their strategy is. And I think done a good job of managing all of this and pushing back on it.

CUPP: OK, I mean, just before we go, I have to agree, I don't get the obsession either to Claire McCaskill's point. I don't think why she is a thing. She doesn't know what the three branches of government are. Let's not give her undue attention.

HEYE: Well, it comes down to one thing, she is now the Democrat's Dave Brat. When Dave Brat meet Eric Cantor, my old boss, he got a flood of attention that he wasn't prepared for. Same with AOC and I didn't hear one single Republican complain about her dancing video. So I hope we can stop talking about that.

Except for the fact that then the video she posted in response got 15 million views in 24 hours. That's not just Republicans who are paying attention to her. She is a force and that's a potential vulnerability to Nancy Pelosi, not in how she talks but in the Democrat's ability to get things done. If she has her own Democratic freedom caucus and I think she does, that's going to be a growing problem.

CUPP: Wow. We will see.

OK, Doug Heye, Doug Thornell, thanks to you both.

Next, before he was even sworn in, Senator Mitt Romney picked a fight with Trump. Is it a preview of how he will legislate?

And later, the President still hasn't commented on the American who was detained on spying charges in Russia. So what's the hold-up?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:29:12] CUPP: Who is MIA at CIA? Men at least in the top spots in May after some initial controversy, Gina Haspel was confirmed director of the CIA, making here the first woman to head the nation's top spy agency. And following that landmark accomplishment, she has placed women at the head of CIA's top three directorates, the first time that has ever happened.

Haspel appointed Elizabeth Kimber to run the director of operations. She has Dawn Meyerriecks to head the director of science and technology and now she has appointed Cynthia "Didi" Rapp as deputy director for analysis.

And by the way, Haspel didn't stop there. Under her, the agency's general counsel and director of diversity are also women. Women now reportedly make up half of CIA's workforce. Isn't that something?

We will be back in two minutes.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:31:52] CUPP: In the Red File tonight, recently sworn in Senator Mitt Romney of Utah started the new year off with a scathing "Washington Post" op-ed attacking President Trump, first he blasted his character and his time in office.

His conduct over the past two years particularly, his actions last month is evidence that the President has not risen to the mantle of the office. It goes on, with the nation so divided, resentful and angry, presidential leadership and qualities of character is indispensable and it is in this where the incumbents where the incumbent's short fall is most glaring.

Trump had this to say about Romney's criticism.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I wish Mitt could be a team player, you know. I'm surprised he did it this weekly. I was expecting something but I surprised he did it this quickly. If he fought really hard against President Obama like he does against me, he would have won the election.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUPP: Senator Romney ended the op-ed with this.

I do not intend to comment on every tweet or fault but significant statements or actions that are divisive, racist, sexist, anti- immigrant, dishonest or destructive to Democratic institutions.

It's unclear what provoked Romney's condemnation but he is obviously coming in hot.

OK. Joining me now to discuss, CNN's political commentator, former spokesman for Mitt Romney's 2012 campaign, Kevin Madden. Kevin, you know Mitt Romney better than most. That's why I'm so glad

you are here tonight to talk to me about this. Because when I read this, I thought, what is Mitt Romney's goal in publishing this before he was even sworn in? What do you think?

KEVIN MADDEN, FORMER ADVISER FIR ROMNEY PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN: Well, you know, he stated actually pretty clearly during his interview with Jake Tapper that, before he started his tenure in the Senate that he wanted to lay down some markers and be very clear about where he stood as it relates to his relationship with this White House and how, and I think a lot of it had to do with the fact, that given the way, and he pointed out in the op-ed, that you know, the last month has been a very tough for the President on things like national security, foreign policy, even some of his approach that there will be flash points like that all the way throughout the next year. And that one of the ways that he can get ahead of how will he answer it at some of these junctures is to lay it all out in this op-ed. And that seems to be what he's doing.

CUPP: But look. I don't disagree with anything that Romney wrote, but why not wait for a legislative fight to arise or an issue over policy? Why do it preemptively?

MADDEN: Yes. And I think that is the challenge and that is even for folks like me who worked for him a long time.

CUPP: Yes.

MADDEN: I think it really did raise that question mark which is, why would you at the beginning of your tenure, define your tenure as a Senator through your opposition to Trump or your questioning of his character and his judgment and fitness for office because now what happens and later on in the op-ed, he goes on to say, I'm not going, as you just said, I'm not going to comment on every single tweet or statement.

CUPP: Yes.

MADDEN: By doing this, he actually guarantees that he will be the first person and the first senator that every single reporter running through the halls of Congress and through the halls of the Senate will be looking for him.

[18:35:00] CUPP: Yes.

MADDEN: And he will be seen as this sort of, you know, oppositional touch stone to the White House and to the President as a result of this op-ed. So it did raised that question mark for me as well.

CUPP: Yes, because it seems to me, if he just wants to be an opposition voice for the Republican Party, he can write op-eds all day long. He could write a book about it. He could go on TV. We would have him all the time but he ran to be a legislator, so I'm confused.

MADDEN: I mean, the interesting thing is for six months during his campaign in Utah, he said, look, I'm going to run a local campaign and I'm going to focus on Utah issues, talk to the people of Utah about why I want to be their Senator. And I don't want my tenure defined by just through the lens of Donald Trump and then on day one, he actually did this.

CUPP: Yes.

MADDEN: It does creates some challenges for him and it does raise those questions.

CUPP: So his use of the word incumbent, he spoke about Donald Trump as the incumbent. My (INAUDIBLE) when I read that in the op-ed and it made me think, I'm sure I'm not the only one, he is thinking about running? What do you know?

MADDEN: I know as much as you do, S.E. But he was pretty clear with Jake Tapper, too, that he doesn't expect to run. It's not really in the cards. I think having ran twice and not have been successful, now having just taken the oath of office on behalf of the people of Utah to be their Senator, I don't expect that he is going to run for office. And I don't think this was a calculation in that sense.

CUPP: OK.

MADDEN: Particularly, since if it was a primary, you know, and I think the President's pollster pointed this out, it would be an uphill climb.

CUPP: Yes. Of course, yes.

MADDEN: And he is not going to run as an independent. So I think when you run for President and you start perking and you start popping up with op-eds like this, that will always be part of the speculation. I don't think it is not part of reality.

CUPP: Kevin Madden, thanks so much for your insight. Appreciate it.

MADDEN: Always great to be with you. Thank you.

CUPP: Next up to another Kevin. Kevin Hart has Ellen in his court but together they manage to stoke even more controversy about those derogatory jokes that torpedoed his Oscar hosting gig.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:41:25] CUPP: Ellen to the rescue. Not so fast. If Kevin Hart's plan to get back on the Oscar stage was to have fellow comedian Ellen DeGeneres smooth over the controversy surrounding his past homophobic jokes and tweets, might have had the opposite effect.

Superstar comedian appeared on "Ellen" for the full hour yesterday, during which Ellen enthusiastically lobbied for Hart saying he should be rehired for host of the Oscars. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ELLEN DEGENERES, HOST, THE ELLEN DEGENERES SHOW: You have grown, apologized. You are apologizing again right. You have done. Don't let those people win. Host the Oscars.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUPP: Ellen said she even called the academy on his behalf. Well, this all prompted more outrage, naturally. For some, particularly those in the black LGBT community, Ellen's imprimatur was presumptuous. For others, Hart didn't seem authentically apologetic. And for many, the whole thing just looked too darn staged.

Now it's unclear what it accomplished for Kevin Hart's Oscar hosting chances but it did accomplish one thing. It sparked a national debate.

Joining me to discuss this thorny issue, my friend and comedian Judy Gold.

OK. First, what did you make of the whole Kevin-Ellen for your consideration show?

JUDY GOLD, COMEDIAN: You know, it was fascinating because I don't think it was supposed to be him for the entire hour.

CUPP: Really?

GOLD: I mean, I don't know. I think --

CUPP: Ahead the call midway through?

GOLD: I think so. I mean, don't quote me.

CUPP: Yes.

GOLD: I think it was really interesting because, you know, I can see it from two perspectives. I see it from a comedian's perspective and I see it from a member of the LGBT community.

CUPP: Yes.

GOLD: And it was a teaching moment. Look, I'm a woman. I'm a member of the LGBT community. My experience is different than an African- American's experience being gay and there is, it is intensely homophobic.

And look, he did this joke. Here's the thing. He could say whatever he wants, but you know, if you are going to do a joke about having a gay son, make it funny. Because you could talk about anything as a comedian if it's funny.

CUPP: Well, so there was particular criticism that Ellen was not the right person to resolve Kevin Hart's.

GOLD: Right.

CUPP: That she was not from a black LGBT background, knowing that particular kind of homophobia. GOLD: Right. And I know Kevin and he is a great guy, you know? And

I have never experienced homophobia from him. His act? Yes. And violence. I mean, the joke was violent, you know?

CUPP: Yes.

GOLD: And if you think about the other part of it where there's these kids who see their hero saying if my kid comes home and he is playing with the doll House, I'm going to smash that doll House. First of all, not funny.

CUPP: Right.

GOLD: And second of all, it sends a message to some kid that, oh my God, I can never come out. I'm an abomination. And you look, I have done the Martin (ph) Institute, you know. Over 65 percent of transgender homeless teens are people of color. Over 40 percent of LGBTQ teens who are homeless, people of color. It's really, it is thorny. You wouldn't use the exact right word.

CUPP: Yes. But I want to come back to that for a second. But first, before that, another thing that's bothering people, is that Hart and DeGeneres seem to frame this as internet trolls and haters having an issue with this.

GOLD: Right.

CUPP: Diminished.

GOLD: It does. You know, I got this offer and then the next morning, I'm getting, look, you are really, really famous. And everything you have done in the past, you know, is going to come back to you. Everything you have said. That's why you always have to be sort of careful.

But as a comic, like I don't think we should hold comics to a higher standard than we do lawmakers or politicians, you know. But here was an opportunity for him to instead of saying, yes, I already apologized, saying, you know what, I'm glad you brought this up because it is a really big problem and --

[18:45:24] CUPP: And here's what I'm going to do.

GOLD: Right. And here's how I feel now. Because, look, we want people to evolve. That's our goal.

CUPP: Yes.

GOLD: You know, people want their parents.

CUPP: Yes. They forgive their parents for years of years of treating them like, you know, crap and here was an opportunity to say, you know, I did apologize and I'm glad we bring that up again because it's still a big problem.

CUPP: It is. And you know me, I'm not a member of the LGBT community.

GOLD: What? That's not what I heard.

CUPP: But you know, I fight for this community.

GOLD: Yes, you always have.

CUPP: And yesterday, a judge ruled to uphold transgender ban in the military by the Trump administration. That's deeply problematic to me and I know it's to you. I didn't see a lot of soliloquies last night on the news by people about that.

GOLD: Of course, right.

CUPP: Do you think we are outraged about the right stuff?

GOLD: I think we are not outraged by the right stuff. Prime example is a woman giving a speech and cursing and then everyone coming after her. Let's focus on how we can change, how we can evolve, how we can start this conversation, have an intelligent conversation. You know, people could get fired from their jobs still for being gay. People cannot be rented apartments or get a cake for their wedding.

CUPP: Judy Gold, thank you so much. I'm so glad you were here.

GOLD: Thank you.

CUPP: All right, we will be right back.

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[18:51:16] CUPP: I'm back now with Judy Gold, my friend comedian to talk about the controversy over Kevin Hart's derogatory hurtful homophobic comments and Ellen DeGeneres' decision to absolve him.

Judy, I found it interesting, Sara Silverman, Amy Schumer, Chelsea Handler, have all in the past few months or a year, I guess, decided they will not use homophobic slurs in their act.

GOLD: Right.

CUPP: I hate those words.

GOLD: Right.

CUPP: Viscerally.

GOLD: Yes.

CUPP: Is that the answer, though, from a comedian's standpoint?

GOLD: You know, I think comedians have to decide for themselves where -- you know, where the line is drawn, and I think -- I think for them it's their brand and their fans. You know, it doesn't do anything positive. CUPP: No, and hasn't society decided that's not funny.

GOLD: Right. It's not. It's not funny. I mean go back -- look at comedy from 40, 50 years ago.

CUPP: Yes.

GOLD: I mean, look, as a comic I can see where the joke is, but there's just certain topics you just don't discuss anymore. Especially, look, we're in this mode of there's no privacy and we --

CUPP: Your social media is going to be discovered.

GOLD: Right. And you have to be really, really diligent about what you post. And look, this whole idea about the first amendment --

CUPP: Yes.

GOLD: We learn so much by letting people speak. You know, people write to me how dare you let -- aren't you mad at this person for saying -- they said it. We have more information about that person now.

CUPP: That's right. I have always -- I didn't this invent this, but the whole mantra is you meet hate speech with more speech, not less speech. This is a teachable moment. I wonder what you think about what the academy did, which was nothing. The academy was like let this happen, let Kevin resign. Let him go through Ellen. I mean, they really made - they have no statements. They made no decisions. Were they sort of cowardly in this moment?

GOLD: I feel like they distanced themselves, you know. We offered it, he's not going to do it, you know. No one wants to get their hands dirty.

CUPP: Yes.

GOLD: No one wants to, you know, to take a stand because they are afraid of the other half.

CUPP: Yes.

GOLD: Attacking them. And we have got to start standing up for what's right.

CUPP: Yes.

GOLD: If you are going to write jokes, make them funny, you know. If you are going to talk about anything, the most subversive topic if it is funny.

CUPP: Louis C.K. recently back in the news for standup routine that was caught on audio saying some things that people thought were not funny.

GOLD: Right. CUPP: Did he go about this the right way if he is trying to mount a

comeback?

GOLD: I think that Louis, again, freedom of speech.

CUPP: Yes. Of course.

GOLD: He is a comic. He goes to clubs. That's where he works. It's like saying to a painter, you can't paint. Not everything he says is going to be funny. Humor is so subjective.

CUPP: Sure.

GOLD: And I think we often go over the edge before we come back when we are writing material. I don't -- you know, again, someone recorded him doing his work. It's like someone painting and making a mistake and having the entire world, you know, looking at them saying, oh, God. That's it. But you know, Louis has his own path and, look, as a comic, that would be the first thing I talked about onstage.

CUPP: The mistakes you made.

GOLD: Right, you know. We talk about the elephant in the room. He is always talked about the elephant in the room.

[18:55:04] CUPP: Sure, sure, sure.

GOLD: And that's what's really important. I mean, we are like the only truth tellers left at this point.

CUPP: Yes, I agree.

So quickly, what should happen to Kevin Hart and the Oscars? Should he get another stab at it?

GOLD: You know, I -- I feel like, again, like I said last segment, it's a teaching moment. I think it is a teachable moment. I think there's so many options here and he could really use his stardom and this incident to help some like really, really young kids who feel hopeless and unloved.

CUPP: Judy Gold, thanks so much again. And thanks for all of you tuning in.

That's it for us. Later tonight experience the incredible story of comedy great Gilda Radner in her own words. The CNN film "Love Gilda" is on at 9:00.

Next, Ana Cabrera has the latest headlines on CNN NEWSROOM.

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