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Pence, Congressional Staffers Take Baby Steps Toward Ending 14- Day Partial Govt Shutdown; Pence, Congressional Staffers Meet as Shutdown Enters Week 3; Mulvaney: Shutdown Meeting 'Did Not Make Much Progress'; Pelosi: House Will Start Passing Individual Bills Next Week Aimed at Re-Opening Parts of Government; Trump Warns Shutdown Could Last "Months Or Even Years;" CNN: Hundreds of TSA Officers Call Out Sick During Shutdown; Union Leaders Predict Number of TSA Callouts Will Increase; TSA: Agency is "Closely Monitoring" Mass Callouts By Employees; Trump: Safety Net For Unpaid Workers is "Strong Border;" Dow Surges on Surprisingly Strong Jobs Report; Iowa Voter to Warren: Why Release Your DNA Results?; Apple Slashes December Quarter Sales; Earnings Outlook, Hiring Skyrockets in December; U.S. adds 312,000 Jobs; Warren Kicks Off Potential WH Bid With First Trip to Iowa; Warren to Iowa Voters: "I am Not a Person of Color;" Warren: I Can't Stop Trump From Hurling Racial Insults; Warren Visits Iowa Amid Comparisons to Hillary Clinton; Sanders Apologizes For Alleged Campaign Harassment; Federal Judge Extends Term of Mueller's Grand Jury; Federal Judge Extends Grand Jury For 6 Months; Trump Threatens to Declare a National Emergency to Fund the Wall. Aired 7-8p ET

Aired January 5, 2019 - 19:00   ET


[19:00:00] ANA CABRERA, CNN HOST, CNN NEWSROOM: Live in CNN Newsroom. I'm Ana Cabrera in New York, thank you for being here. Today it was the Vice President's turn. For two straight weeks now, almost 15 days and counting, nobody has succeeded in negotiating an end to the partial government shutdown, a shutdown that has stopped pay checks to about 800,000 American federal workers.

And the President who has the power to end it right now is holding out for border wall money, U.S. taxpayer money, not Mexico's. On the other side of the stalemate, congressional Democrats who insist he will not get that money. Today Vice President Mike Pence gathered congressional aides and Homeland Security officials to see if they could make some headway where the President and top leaders in Congress could not.

Now sources inside that meeting say they had "baby steps" but that Pence would not move from that dollar amount demanded by President Trump and then just a short time ago, this tweet from the President, "Vice President Mike Pence and team just left the White House, briefed me on their meeting with the Schumer/Pelosi representatives. Not much headway made today. Second meeting set for tomorrow. After so many decades, must finally and permanently fix the problems on the Southern border."

Let's get to our White House correspondent Boris Sanchez and Boris, not only is there no agreement on ending the shutdown, there apparently isn't even an agreement on whether today's meeting was productive or not. BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Right, yes, some of the

senior perspectives that we heard came from Vice President Mike Pence's office saying that today's talks were productive. We also heard from that source on Capitol Hill that they took baby steps today indicating that essentially Democrats asked Republicans to officially justify that $5.6 billion request for border wall funding.

Republicans responding by saying that they would get back to Democrats either late tonight or tomorrow when they're scheduled to meet again as you noted. Chief of Staff, acting Chief of Staff, I should say, Mick Mulvaney did not have that sunny perspective.

He essentially said the Democrats were trying to stall in an interview that was recorded shortly after that meeting took place he told Jake Tapper that no progress was made and he voiced his frustration, listen to this.


JAKE TAPPER, CNN REPORTER: I know that Speaker Pelosi had said she didn't want to give even more than one dollar to the border wall. President Trump has talked about $5.6 billion. Is there any give in the $5.6 billion in terms of whether or not it has to be for a wall or whether it can be for more generally border security.

MICK MULVANEY, ACTING WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF: I think the President said for a long time that it's $5.6 billion for border security including the wall. We recognize that things like technology and border crossings are important but certainly a barrier is important.

We didn't make much progress at the meeting which was surprising to me. I thought we had come in to talk about terms that we could agree on, places where we all agreed we should be spending more time, more attention, things we can do to improve our border security and yet the opening line from one of the lead Democrat negotiators was that they were not there to talk about any agreement.

They were actually in my mind there to stall and we did not make much progress.


SANCHEZ: We'll hear more from the Acting Chief of Staff tomorrow on state of the union with Jake tapper. Mulvaney is actually scheduled to be in Camp David tomorrow for a pow-wow with the President and other administration officials to discuss top priorities for 2019.

We should point out, in a statement this afternoon, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi essentially so that Democrats would soon be voting on a number of individual Appropriations Bills that would fund specific parts of the government that are currently closed like the treasury department and the IRS for example.

There is no doubt though that that faces an uphill climb when it comes to getting any voice in the Senate, unlikely that the Republicans in the Senate would take that up, far less likely that President Trump would sign off on it as you know Ana, he's repeatedly said that the shutdown will continue as long as it has to for him to get money for that border wall. Ana.

CABRERA: Boris Sanchez at the White House. Thank you and while this shutdown drags into its third week, CNN is learning hundreds of TSA employees who are required to work during the shutdown without pay are calling out sick.

At the Dallas Fort Worth Airport alone, call outs have increased by up to 300% while union officials say this is not part of an organized effort, they predict the number of call outs will likely increase and CNN's Polo Sandoval's following this for us. So what does this mean Polo for air travel?

POLO SANDOVAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You mentioned the situation Dallas, I'll give you another example here in New York's JFK, Ana, officials saying that at least 170 TSA employees called in sick every day, last week and that is a number that according to union officials or at least the heads of the unions for the TSA employees is likely to rise in the coming days.

An important point that you just mentioned, according to those same union officials, this is no organized protest but instead really more practical reasons for this.

[19:05:00] For example, a lot of single parents, they may not be able to afford childcare so they have to stay home with their children.

Other of those TSA employees perhaps have to find employment elsewhere because the shutdown continues and so does the obligations to pay their rents and their bills, of course. But this also is raising some potential concerns here, right?

I mean, you're talking about a highly secure area, at least these men and women who are responsible for ensuring the security of so many air travelers and in other locations as well. For example, some of those union Presidents said that they are afraid that we could see fewer pat downs, fewer random checks as well.

But the Transportation Security Administration here weighing in, hoping to calm those concerns. They issued a statement, I believe last couple days, they said the security effectiveness will not be compromised and their performance standards, Ana, that they will not change.

However the wait times could potentially be affected because when you put it all together, you have less TSA personnel and still that workload continues to accumulate and that really difficult decision too.

Our colleague Randi Kaye spoke to one TSA officer yesterday, out of Philly who says, look, he's got to make that very tough decision, does he keep going to work, spending his money for gas or does that money eventually have to go to feed his family. Yes, back pay will come but the real decision that they're faced with right now is what do they do? And finally they do have a name for this, it's called the "blue flu," according to two government officials in contact with CNN that of course a reference to the blue uniforms that these men and women wear.

CABRERA: Interesting so now we're seeing the real world impact of the government shutdown and what it's going to do for not just the people who are furloughed but what it could mean for Americans who are also impacted, going on vacation for example, trying to get somewhere for work. Thank you Polo Sandoval.

President Trump was asked what kind of assurances he can give federal workers who aren't getting paid right now and are worried about how they'll pay their mortgages or perhaps even buy food for their children and here's the exchange.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You're saying months and possibly a year for the shutdown, do you have in mind a safety net for those who need their checks?

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES: Well, the safety net is going to be having a strong border because we're going to be safe. Many of the people here discussing, I really believe that they agree with what we're doing.


CABRERA: With us now the journalist behind that question, April Ryan, she's a White House correspondent for American Urban Radio Networks and a CNN Political Analyst. So April, what did you make of the President's answer to your question?

APRIL RYAN, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, AMERICAN URBAN RADIO NETWORKS & CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, he's determined about a wall, that's what I make of that answer to my question. It wasn't about the economics for the people that I heard. He basically said that they want the wall as well and they're willing to sacrifice.

But Ana, after that question my Twitter handle blew up and I got a lot of comments and many of those said they need their pay check. I mean you've got Democrats going back to work next week on the Hill, in the House and talking about actually trying to work to reopen the government, especially when it comes to Treasury and IRS, what you just heard from the report before.

Basically to help people get their refunds on time. There's a bottom line for people, money, they need to pay their bills and the President said, you know in the Rose Garden that you know, the landlords would understand, this person would understand.

I'm not necessarily sure about that. We haven't heard an outcry from realtors, from landlords or from power companies to say, we'll excuse those bills so we'll see - CABRERA: Right, but the President is brushing it off as if it would be

easy for people who are impacted to negotiate. Could what appears to be a lack of empathy end up hurting the President politically as we get further into this shutdown?

RYAN: Yes. Yes, it really could because this is about economics, this is not just about national economics but when people cry out is when your pocketbook effective, when they're personally affected. People are being personally affected now you know, I was getting calls from people in the secret service who didn't know if they were going to get pay checks.

But you know I heard from Sarah Huckabee Sanders who said that they were essential. People from almost every sector that it could be or are affected are very nervous about this because the President is not putting a cap on, oh, this, we want this to be over in a few weeks.

He's talking about months and years and if you go month and a year or years, what does that do to someone, that bankrupts you, that puts you in poverty possibly if you wait on that job and does the government function.

This has a ripple effect to cause hurt for the national economy and for people, personally and I talked to Chuck Schumer, the Minority Leader of the Senate who said, yes, this is going to cause a problem economically, the longer this goes on. He said that to me in my interview, my exclusive interview with him this week.

CABRERA: So there were negotiations today between the Vice President.

[19:10:00] With Mick Mulvaney there, Jared Kushner there, Kirstjen Nielsen, all there along with some congressional staffers. Trump said it was unproductive as we read his tweet at the top here but I wonder how productive can negotiations be if the President isn't taking part in them because it seems like, his advisors, they try to make a deal and then Trump just goes back on it.

Is the White House on the same page?

RYAN: Well, the White House is clear, the President is clear. $5.67 billion, that's what he wants, nothing short and they are at the table you know, Democrat sources as saying - Democratic sources are saying, that's what they kept saying and they are not willing to put $5.6 billion or $5.7 billion to this wall.

They want border security but not for wall and they're even saying that really the President's numbers are low for a wall, they're talking really $70 billion. They don't know why you know, why he's saying $5 billion so they said this is just absurd.

So both sides are walled off, Ana, they're walled off and the wain shall not meet at this point but the question is you know, when will this end? You know the President is going to Camp David with his staff tomorrow at 9:00 AM.

The question is you know, will he concede and Nancy Pelosi said to me, it was yesterday, she said the only way that there's compromises is once the government is open and it's cyclical you know, he wants the wall.

The President wants the wall to reopen the government and Democrats are saying no and they keep going in this circle and when will this circle end?

CABRERA: We will watch and see. Thank you April Ryan, good to have you with us.

RYAN: Thank you.

CABRERA: We're going to a furloughed worker by the way, next hour. I'll ask her what she thinks about the President's comments, the idea that the government workers who were furloughed currently want this checked out.

Meantime a winning campaign strategist once said, "It's the economy, stupid." And after an unexpectedly strong December jobs report, the DOW surged on Friday so is the economy still roaring or are there warning signs ahead? We'll discuss that plus Senator Elizabeth Warren is in Iowa, this hour, these are live pictures.

And explaining why she took a DNA test. Hear her explanation just ahead. You're live in the CNN Newsroom.


CABRERA: The stock market roaring back to life ending the first week of 2019 with a surging rally.

Wall Street on Friday celebrating a surprisingly strong blockbuster jobs report, the U.S. economy adding 312,000 jobs in December, the most in ten months. Now the DOW has surged more than 1600 points or 8% just since Christmas Eve.

All this comes though on the heels of Wall Street dismal December, the worst month for stocks since the Great Depression so let's talk all about this.

And where this goes from here. Joining us now former Trump Economic Advisor Stephen Moore, CNN Senior Economics Analysts and Financial Times Associate Editor Rana Faroohar, also CNN Global Economic Analyst.

Rana, you're here with me in New York so I'll start with you. Are the fundamentals of the real economy stronger perhaps and many anticipated?

RANA FAROOHAR, ASSOCIATE EDITOR AND COLUMNIST, FINANCIAL TIMES & CNN GLOBAL ECONOMIC ANALYST: We're in a pretty good point. I mean, I frankly was predicting that we would be in more of a slow down at this point than we have been. And part of that is some of the Trump policies which have really jazzed up the economy, tax cut, etcetera.

You know, I think that those came too late in the cycle. I think they may have actually been part of maybe an overheating economy which is one of the reasons that the Fed started hiking rates. They've now been kind of indicating that they may go a little slower on that because of what's happened in the market but we're at a really delicate point, right now.

I mean if you look historically you tend to see downturns about ten years after recovery cycles, we've been in recovery for ten years, we're due for a slowdown and a lot of business people think we're going to have one if not this year then certainly next

CABRERA: And when you look at some of the other numbers, Steven, there are some troubling signs, U.S. manufacturing activity dipped to a two- year low in December. Apple this week made a lot of ripples among the world's most widely held stocks, badly missing its quarterly sales forecasts.

How do you square those dismal reports regarding manufacturing and Apple with you know, some of the more positive news?

STEPHEN MOORE, FORMER TRUMP ECONOMIC ADVISOR & CNN SENIOR ECONOMIC ANALYST: So you know, you started the segment by saying you know, do we have a strong economy or are there warning signs in 2019 and I think the answer is yes to both.

I think, we have a very strong economy right now. It really is a booming economy, we ended the year with 3% growth and obviously, this is one of the best jobs reports we've had in 15 or 20 years. Wages are growing you know, we've got the lowest unemployment rate in 50 years.

I mean, if you're a worker looking for a job, there's probably no time in half a century better to be looking at for a job than now so very proud of you know, what we've achieved. I do think the tax cut and the new regulations have got a lot to do with that but you're also right and I think Rana is right.

There are worrisome signs on where we are right now in terms of you know, the next six months to a year and I think those are two things, number one, you know we still got this overhang of the trade war with China and investors are very nervous about how this is going to turn out.

You've got the two largest economies in the world that are you know at each other's throats right now and I'd love to see that resolve with you know a good trade agreement where China backs down and buys more of our goods and if that happens, I think the economy will be strong.

The other factor and this is here where I think Rana and I disagree, I'm strongly opposed to some of the actions that the Fed has taken. I think they're sucking some of the oxygen out of the economy. I mean you know, the latest - I think almost everyone agrees, the latest rate hike by the Fed was a major mistake and of course the markets have voted on that with the 2500 point decline.

And I do worry that if the Fed you know, were to continue to raise rates, that could cause the very recession that we have a Fed to help us avoid. FAROOHAR: Well, you know, it's interesting because I think that the

Fed really has a delicate balancing act right now. I mean even before the trade war, even before the Trump administration, there was actually a big debate going on about why are we seeing more inflation.

And some people think that we're not seeing more inflation because of how technology is coming into all different sectors and that actually goes to the point about China. I mean, one of the reasons that you're seeing companies like Apple you know, degrading or downgrading earnings and saying you know, we're not going to see the sales that we wanted in China because China's trying to slow down but also China's going a different direction with its own technology. I mean, it's got its own brands.

[19:20:00] Now, they're big brands that are actually more popular than Apple and it's possible that you could see kind of a tripolar world developing where China goes one way, Europe goes another way, U.S. goes a third way and that we're just going to kind of have a reset of globalization.

CABRERA: Let me just - let me throw one more thing into the next year because right now we have a government shutdown. The President's saying yesterday. This could go on for months. Hey, I'm willing to let this go on for years. Now according to 'The Washington Post' more than $140 billion in tax refunds are at risk of being frozen or delayed if this government shutdown stretches into February.

Stephen, wouldn't that cause a big economic disruption?

MOORE: They're probably - not - I don't know how big it would be but certainly it's negative for the economy, no question about it. I think this is just a dumb government shutdown. I mean, I heard your conversation Ana with April and you know, it's pretty clear you know, what the solution is here that the Democrats want $1 billion - I mean Republicans want $5 billion and Trump wants - I mean, just cut it down the middle and get on with it you know and I think that would be good for the economy.

But you know, to this point of I am a little bit worried about a deflation in the economy right now. I mean if you look at what's happened, look at what's happened to the price of oil, that's fallen by about 30%. Now that's good for people who are buying gasoline but look at the price of lead, look at the price of you know everything from soybeans.

Ask farmers if they think there's too much inflation in the economy, they're not getting a lot of money for their commodities right now, that worries me because deflation in prices can be as negative for the economy as what we saw in the 1970s when we have you know, runaway inflation.

CABRERA: Okay, Stephen has the last word because Rana, you got the first. Thank you both, Stephen Moore, Rana Faroohar. Let's continue the conversation.

MOORE: Have a good weekend, take care. CABRERA: You too and Happy New Year to you both.

Senator Elizabeth Warren is in Iowa this hour. We have live pictures right now from her latest events. She's been getting pressed by voters during this trip about her attempt to prove her native American ancestry. Remember that video she posted, her DNA test that she had. Hear how she responded to a question, next live in the CNN Newsroom.


Game on for the 2020 election. Massachusetts Senator Elizabeth Warren barnstorming the state of Iowa today, continuing with events tonight, live pictures there on the right side of your screen. She announced that exploratory bid for President earlier this week and so now she's in Iowa, the first state to caucus.

CABRERA: An Iowa voter out of the gate confronted Warren over that controversial decision to use a DNA test to prove her claims, she has native American ancestry. Here's Warren's response.


SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D), MASSACHUSETTS: I am not a person of color. I am not a citizen of a tribe. When I first ran for public office, the first time was in 2012 and the Republicans honed in on this part of my history and thought they could make a lot of hay out of it.

A lot of racial slurs and a lot of ugly stuff. That went on and so my decision was I'm just going to put it all out there.


CABRERA: Let's get right to CNN's national political correspondent MJ Lee in Demoing Iowa, tonight. MJ, you closely followed Warren all day today along her tour, what stood out to you about that particular exchange about the DNA test?

MJ LEE, CNN NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Ana, this was such a fascinating exchange particularly about this decision my Senator Warren to release the results of her DNA test because it was seen by so many people as such a serious early misstep for her.

The way that this question was asked was so interesting and important because the audience member who asked this question, not only asked about the DNA test but they framed it as this, " Why did you release the results of the tax and therefore give President Trump much more fodder to bully you?" I think it's worth playing Senator Warren's reaction to the Trump part of that question. Here it is.


WARREN: I can't stop Donald Trump from what he's going to do. I can't stop them from hurling racial insults. I don't have any power to do that but well -

(END VIDEO CLIP) LEE: Now what's also fascinating is that when Senator Warren said that

another audience member actually yelled out, yes, you can back to me and Senator Warren, yes, you can confront President Trump.

And so this is going to be I think, representative of an important sort of balancing act that we see Senator Warren and potentially some of the other Democratic candidates have to juggle because there are going to be certainly people who feel like the Democratic candidate in 2020 that they want them to confront President Trump and really take him on.

And there are going to be plenty of other people who do not want that, that they don't want these Democratic candidates to take on President Trump or confront him or play his own - play his game or into his hand and so that is going to be a challenge for a lot of these Democratic candidates and Ana, quickly speaking of other potential Democratic candidates, a lot of the folks that we're talking to this weekend, here in Iowa, not surprisingly saying, they want to do their homework.

They are not yet decided on who they want to support and over the next couple of months, they want to meet folks like Bernie Sanders, like Kamala Harris, like Sherrod Brown. These are some of the names that we're hearing from the folks that we have spoken to here. So again, the next couple of months, they're only going to be making first impressions and it is going to be a long 13 months ahead. Ana.

CABRERA: And in our last poll there in Iowa, the first of the election season for the Presidential election, that is we had Bernie Sanders as well as Joe Biden was actually on top then Bernie Sanders and Beto O'Rourke were the top three according to Iowa voters at that time. MJ Lee, thank you for that update. We know you'll keep us posted if there are any other major headlines that come from this event, tonight with Elizabeth Warren.

Senator Warren's controversial moment today earlier telling Iowa voters that she is not a person of color, that moment now getting strong reaction and I want to show you reaction from Symone Sanders, the former National Press Secretary for Senator Bernie Sanders' Presidential bid. Watch.

SYMONE SANDERS, FORMER NATIONAL PRESS SECRETARY, BERNIE SANDERS 2016: I think that's exactly what she should be doing. You know, for disclosure, I spoke to Senator Warren about this a number of times because you know I am someone that was vocal when she put out the DNA tests, I think I tweeted, and then I had an opportunity to speak with her about it.

[19:30:00] And I said when I tweeted that it's unfortunate that she felt she had to do this because this is something that Republicans, Donald Trump included, you know just continued to bring up.

And I do believe that Senator Warren understands the sensitivities around it, the issues around it but I think it's important that while she's out here on the campaign trail that folks understand that one, she knows that she has to marry her message with the real issues that folks are dealing with every single day in their lives and there are issues that people of color in this country deal with, that non people of color do not and Elizabeth Warren, I think in a lot of the policies that she has put forward since she's been a United States Senator understands that and demonstrate that to be her policy.

I think it's important that she says it and that is why she's saying I am not a person of color because it's an acknowledgment that a number of people across the country need to hear. I'm not a person of color but I understand the plight and I am willing to not only be an ally but an accomplice so I was happy to hear her say that.

CABRERA: She's not a person car but she is a woman and that seems to be causing a little bit of a kerfuffle. This Iowa trip comes under the headlines of ones like this. Politico: Warren battles the ghosts of Hillary. From The Washington Post here: Before you run against Trump, you have to run against Hillary (if you're a woman).

That article going on to say that women looking at White House campaigns continue to shoulder gender criticism and demands not placed on their male counterparts. To be strong but not too tough, to be assertive without being pushy, lest voters turn away for reasons that they may not acknowledge are sexist but that researchers say are.

Jennifer, is it sexist to compare Elizabeth Warren to Hillary Clinton?

JENNIFER GRANHOLM, (D) FORMER GOVERNOR, MICHIGAN: Yes, I mean everyone is going to be compared to Hillary Clinton and every woman is going to be expected to be likable and have that - try to prove themselves to be likable in a way that men don't have to. Then there's just research after research after research that shows that if a woman seeks an office, if a woman looks like she's too ambitious, all of a sudden she's not likeable anymore.

And so women who are running for office have to deal with this all the time. Women have to worry about the tone of their voice, people don't necessarily acquaint power with a woman - the timbre of a woman's voice and so those kinds of issues women have to deal with all the time.

I say this to women who are running, look, you know it's out there and to the media commentators and those who are covering this you should know it's out there too and check yourself, check your own biases but for the women who are running, just recognize that that underlying bias is there and know that people don't want to elect someone they see as - that they believe see themselves as the victim.

They want to elect a warrior so know that this stuff is out there but be their champion, be their warrior, don't be a victim and run like you believe that whole heartedly because you want to be their voice and their fighter rather than someone who sees themselves as the victim.

CABRERA: And advice coming from somebody who has claimed victory in one of these races even despite some of the sexism that exists in our culture. Well Warren, even Clinton, they were not the first candidates however to deal with issues of likeability, right?

I mean, here's what was said about former Vice President Al Gore in 2000 and Republican Mitt Romney in 2012, both of whom are men. Watch.


GOUGLAS SCHOEN, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: The Vice President really faces the challenge of communicating to people of the United States that he's a likable, affable, affective personalities.

KEN WARREN, POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think what we want to see is whether or not Al Gore can take that coat hanger out of his jacket, hang loose, appear very warm and credible and be more likeable than George W.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Romney, he just can't be so stiff, he has to be more likable.

ARI FLEISCHER, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: He's got to be more likable, connect with people.

ANA NAVARRO, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: He needs to also smile, be likeable, he's got a likeability gap.


CABRERA: So it's not just about women here Symone, likeability is obviously something that has influenced voters in Presidential elections for decades.

SANDERS: I mean, absolutely, look, the fact that people often say that folks want to like somebody that yes, they want to be their champion but somebody that they want to have a beer with, somebody that they like.

That's why often times you'll hear people talk about a number of different types of elections being popularity contest which frankly, I don't think that's what this 2020 presidential - Democratic Presidential primary will be. With that being said, when folks talk about likeability when it comes to women, it's often - they're talking about it in a way that says she's not likeable because she's too strong.

She comes off too shrill, these are things that if you are a man, nine times out of ten, folks do not say that and so I personally think we need to retire frames like - phrases like likeability, like electability, phrases viability because oftentimes we're not - when we talk about being likeable, we talk about being electable, we talk about being viable and we're talking about what's normal.

[19:35:00] What we think is possible. We are what we think is possible given what has previously happened in the past. These are not forward looking or forward thinking terms that allow us to stretch our imagination, that allowed us to elect the first black President of the United States, that allowed Hillary Clinton to be the first woman to be the party that the nominee of either party.

So that's why I think these terms are archaic terms that we just need to get rid of and we need to start talking about values, issues and ideas.

GRANHOLM: Can I just jump on this, Ana?

CABRERA: Go ahead.

GRANHOLM: Yes, I mean, I agree that we want to talk about issues but I also think that likeability whether you're a man or woman is an important issue and that there is a sense of people wanting to relate.

The beef that I had about this particular - the initial part of this conversation was that she was being compared to Hillary Clinton like all women are going to be compared to Hillary Clinton because just because they're women. It's not like Bernie Sanders is being compared to you know, is he as likable as Barack Obama.

You know, it's - the bottom line is women and men are going to be running. This is going to be an awesome primary, you're going to have to so many people, there's going to be such a chance to have conversations about how people will help everyday citizens, the middle class, etcetera.

That is super exciting, regardless of their gender. I hope the folks in Iowa and New Hampshire and Nevada and South Carolina who are the first primary states have a really great chance to vet and see and have these conversations. I wish I were an Iowan in these days because it would be so awesome to have those conversations and hopefully people take people for who they are and not for the shape of their plumbing and not for the color of their skin.

But what is it they're going to do for them and if they're likeable, great.

CABRERA: Symone, because I have you here, I got to ask you about the Bernie Sanders news, this week since you served on his 2016 Presidential campaign. Senator Sanders was criticized for his response to the allegations that came out in a 'New York Times' article.

Allegations of sexism and sexual harassment by staffers during the 2016 campaign and here's how he responded to the allegations.


SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (D), Vermont : So I certainly apologize to any woman who felt that she was not treated appropriately and of course, if I run, we will do better next time.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And just to be clear, you seems to indicate that you did not know at that time about the allegations, is that correct?

SANDERS: Yes, I was little bit busy running around the country, trying to make the case.


CABRERA: Now among the allegations, one woman claims supervisors or a supervisor I should say, marginalized her after she declined an invite to his hotel room. Multiple women claim they were asked to sleep in rooms along with male co-workers they didn't know and at least one woman claims she was paid thousands of dollars less than her male counterparts.

Symone, does any of this hit home for you, did you ever feel mistreated?

SANDERS: I've never experienced sexual harassment. I think one of the terms that was used in the reporting was sexual violence but it's not about what I experienced. It's - the fact is that there are women out there who worked in our 2016 campaign who were mistreated, who said they felt marginalized, who did experience harassment and they deserve to have their voices heard, their concerns deserve to be not only be elevated but addressed.

And I believe that the Friends of Bernie Sanders, his campaign arm have took all of this information into consideration that came out, prior to it being reported in the media I do believe during his midterm campaign.

Now if you ask me about the Senator's response, I don't think he should have said that, I was a little too busy running around the country and I think -

CABRERA: What should he have said?

SANDERS: If you asked him directly, I think, he would also regret that. I think what he - what Bernie had said about some of these types of issues in the past and frankly, what Jeff Weaver, his campaign manager has said, he said it's not acceptable that if it - that it shouldn't have happened and that they have taken steps to make sure it doesn't happen in the future.

And even regardless of Senator Sanders' runs for President or if he doesn't, I think this is an opportunity to elevate the conversation and continue to elevate the conversation around the issues of sexual harassment, sexual violence, around the issues of pay equity so that they can continue to be addressed throughout the - not just in politics, when you talk about business education everywhere in between because these things are in fact still happening.

CABRERA: Symone Sanders and Governor Jennifer Granholm, thank you both for joining us. Great to have you with us in the new year, the first weekend of the new year, thanks for being here.

A judge has extended special counsel Robert Mueller's secret grand jury so what does that say about the probe and what can we expect this year, we'll discuss.


CABRERA: It's the sure sign yet that special counsel Robert Mueller is not ready just yet to end his investigation, perhaps nowhere near. In fact, this weekend a federal judge has extended the grand jury so they can continue to meet and vote on criminal indictment for up to six more months.

They've already been at work for 18. With us now former U.S. Assistant Attorney and CNN Legal Analyst Elie Honig. So Elie, now we know this investigation could go on for some time. Who will you be watching for? Who is under scrutiny?

ELIE HONIG, FORMER ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY, SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK: So I think the first question is who might get charged next? Start with Roger Stone and Jerome Corsi, both of these guys have said publicly they expect to get indicted. They've said they didn't do anything wrong but they expect to get indicted.

Now these guys were the links between Wikileaks which was publishing the hacked emails from Hillary Clinton and the Trump campaign and the question is going to be, how involved were they. So those guys face potential crimes for being those intermediaries and for lying to Congress or Federal investigators about it.

The other area I'm looking is Donald Trump Junior, Jared Kushner, potentially Eric Trump, executives of the Trump org on a couple different things. The campaign finance, the hush money payments that Michael Cohen was convicted of. Those guilty plea papers mentioned executive one and executive two in the Trump org. Those are the people who authorized and made the payments so with that, if any of those people are Don Junior, Eric Trump, Jared Kushner, they could be on the hook too.

There's a Trump tower meeting that Don Junior was part of with Kushner, there's potential false statements to Congress about the Moscow project so there's a couple of different areas they'll be looking at for them.

[19:45:00] CABRERA: And there's already people who have been indicted, have pleaded guilty.

HONIG: Michael Cohen, yes.

CABRERA: Who already have been convicted with Manafort, those guys still have to be sentenced, what are you watching for?

HONIG: Paul Manafort is in a terrible spot, he's about to turn 70 years old, this guy had the worst year any criminal defendant can have. A year ago right now, Manafort was charged but he was a free man, since then, he got thrown in jail because he violated his bail. He got convicted at trial, he pled guilty to more crimes and then he got caught lying to Mueller trying to cooperate.

His sentence is now coming up, he has a hearing coming up later in January about whether he lied to Mueller or not. Either way the sentence he's looking at for a 70 year old, could keep him behind bars for all or the most of the rest of his life. His only hope is a pardon.

Michael Flynn also thought he was going to walk when he went in a couple weeks ago, turned out the judge was not impressed by his theory that he had been set up by the FBI, raised a prospect of treason and then said, go back, you need to prove that you're a valuable co- operator and then come back in March.

CABRERA: Yes, don't you want to delay this sentence, he said.

HONIG: Yes, it was like, one of those like, you may not want me to sentence you today.

CABRERA: Exactly. Now obviously the game is changed also in Congress because Democrats have control of the House, what are you watching for there?

HONIG: It's a whole new front with different rules because look, Robert Mueller has the heaviest hammer. He can bring criminal charges, he can put people in jail but most of what he does is done in secret behind closed doors in grand jury and we get little peeks here and there.

What the Congress can do now is explore things publicly, very quickly and in an almost unlimited range of areas so Adam Schiff is made clear as has Jerrold Nadler, Elijah Cummings, they intend to be very aggressive. Rudy Giuliani is dug in, he's going to fight, he's going to fight any attempt to subpoena, he's going to invoke executive privilege.

And so we're going to see sort of multidimensional battles I think here between Congress, DOJ and the President.

CABRERA: We don't know when Robert Mueller's report will draw, we don't know what his conclusions will be but you do know there's somewhat a process of what we can expect when that report comes.

HONIG: Yes, expect a big brawl there. The process is supposed to be Mueller hands his report over to AG, AG then reviews it and if appropriate sends the Congress. Now first complication, who's going to be the AG? Well, we still have Matthew Whitaker or it will be on to William Barr by then.

Both of those guys I think, there are legitimate questions about their impartiality, they both have written and spoken publicly attacking Mueller and his tactics that I think auditioning for the President, signalling, I'll take care of you, don't work.

So that's sort of complication number one, Giuliani again, he's dug in. He's said, he's already working on his 87 page already counter report and again, I think we could see a legal fight over executive privilege.

The President claiming, I'm exempt from some of these processes and that was the same fight that Richard Nixon brought unsuccessfully to the supreme court in 1974.

CABRERA: We have so much to watch, you just gave us a ton of information.

HONIG: It's going to be interesting.

CABRERA: Really appreciate Elie, we know you'll be along the ride with us.

HONIG: Yes indeed.

CABRERA: Thank you. Well, we have an update on an important story now that we brought to you in 2018. The young migrant girl separated from her mother at the border by immigration officials.


BORDER PATROL AGENT (through translator): Don't cry.

ALISON JIMENA MADRID, CHILD SEPARATED FROM FAMILY BY U.S. GOVERNMENT (through translator): I want to go with my aunt.

CABRERA: Well, she is now back with her mother and living in the United States but it might not be for long.



CABRERA: Her cries were heard around the world after being separated from her mother at the U.S. border. Alison Madrid did not speak a word of English when she came to the United States, seven months ago but you can feel her pain and her plea to immigration officials.


ALISON MADRID (through translator): Salvador.

BORDER PATROL AGENT (through translator): Don't cry.

ALISON MADRID (through translator): I want to go with my aunt.

BORDER PATROL AGENT(through translator): You're going to get there. Look, she will explain it and help you.

ALISON MADRID (through translator): At least can I go with my aunt? I want her to come. I want my aunt to come so she can take me to her house.


CABRERA: At the time of that recording the then six-year old's mother was nearly 1300 miles away from her and the two have since reunited in Houston. CNN's Gary Tuchman found them and has an update to their story.


GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Seven year old Alison Jimena Madrid enjoying the day at the children's museum of Houston. Are you happy today?

ALISON MADRID: [Speaks in Spanish] TUCHMAN: A very different story from when she and her mother first

came to this country. And now almost six months later, they're getting ready for their first asylum hearing. The start of a process which will determine whether or not they can stay in the U.S.

As they've waited for the hearing Alison Jimena has been going to a public school in Houston. When she arrived in the U.S., she did not speak a word of English.

So Alison Jimena, you have something you want to read?


TUCHMAN: Okay, let's hear it in English.

ALISON MADRID: Why I love America? I love my school, I love my church. I love to smile. I love and believe in American dream. Happy New Year America.

TUCHMAN: Happy New Year America to you too.

ALISON MADRID: Happy New Year America.

TUCHMAN: Her mother, Cindy is doing her best to learn English at her church.


TUCHMAN: She cannot legally get a job at this stage of the asylum process but says she wants to work.

CINDY MADRID: [Speaks Spanish]

TUCHMAN: She says she would like to have a job cleaning or at a restaurant or whatever job she can get as long as she can do it with dignity.

ALISON MADRID: Rex and Blair work it together, they mix the crab apples, sugar, salt and water. makes way makes this crap apples.

TUCHMAN: So what is the likelihood that daughter and mother will be granted asylum. Their lawyer says, she's hopeful but -

THELMA GARCIA, ATTORNEY OF CINDY MADRID: There's a good chance that it may not be granted.

TUCHMAN: Attorney Garcia says Cindy Madrid left to protect Alison, her only child from gang violence. Alison told us what her understanding is of that threat.

ALISON MADRID: [speaks Spanish]

TUCHMAN: The gang she says, "they wanted to steal me."

[19:55:00] The attorney says if Cindy Madrid loses her case and is sent back to El Salvador, death is not an overstatement. GARCIA: It could be death, they had very serious problems with the gang violence. They had no protection by the police as well. So we're not expecting anything good if she is returned back home. Alison Jimena says Houston is now her home.

ALISON MADRID: It is a sunny day when friends stick together.

TUCHMAN: The end.

ALISON MADRID: And finish.

TUCHMAN: But this legal battle is far from finished. Gary Tuchman, CNN, Houston.


CABRERA: Remarkable, isn't it? Day 15 now of the government shutdown so what's the President's solution?


CABRERA: He says he would consider declaring a National Emergency to fund his wall. All of this over a wall that Mexico was supposed to pay for.


CABRERA: Quick programming note for you tonight. Incredible story of comedy great, Gilda Radner in her own words, Love Gilda, a CNN film re-airs tonight at 9 ET right here on CNN.