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No Breakthrough as U.S. Government Shutdown Enters Day 17; White House Lies about Security Risks on Southern Border; GOP Takes on Ocasio-Cortez Over 70% Tax on Super Rich. Aired 6-6:30a ET

Aired January 07, 2019 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I informed my folks to say that we'll build a steel barrier. They don't like concrete so we'll give them steel.

[05:59:32] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's no requirement that this government be shut down while we deliberate whether it's a fence or a wall.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We did not make much progress. Democrat negotiators were not there to talk about any agreement.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I do not believe that holding government workers hostage is the way to determine how best to secure our borders.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If it goes on much longer, I am going to have to figure out what I'm going to do to just to be able to eat.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY with Alisyn Camerota and John Berman.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome to our viewers in the United States and around the world. This is NEW DAY. It is Monday, January 7, 6 a.m. here in New York. Happy Monday.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Happy Monday. Watched a lot of football this weekend.

CAMEROTA: Did you?

BERMAN: It was like --

CAMEROTA: Football was on this weekend?

BERMAN: Football. American football, the wild-card games. The play- offs.

CAMEROTA: It was even on in my House. I didn't know what it was, but it was on in my House.

The second longest government shutdown in U.S. history stretching into week three, and there's no end in sight. Another round of talks over the weekend failed to find a break-through.

As we have discussed, it's been hard to keep track of exactly what the president wants. Is it a wall? Is it a steel slat? Is it a wall thing, as it was called last week?

So in a letter overnight, the White House has outlined the president's latest offer. He's asking Congress for $5.7 billion for now a steel barrier, not a concrete wall.

Nancy Pelosi has called a wall immoral, and they have not been willing to budge on the Democratic side. And, in fact, some of them are insisting now the president reopen the government before they agree to any deal.

Now, the president is again threatening to declare a national emergency to bypass Congress and build his wall thing.

BERMAN: So, with nothing else working yet to sell the wall plan or the wall thing, the White House is trying something else: deceit and getting caught in a fairly embarrassing fashion.

White House press secretary Sarah Sanders tries to suggest that thousands of terrorists could be coming over the border with Mexico. That's not true. The State Department says that's not true. FOX News says that's not true.

Also new this morning, we're trying to determine exactly what the administration's policy is regarding the troop drawdown in Syria, the policy that led to the resignation of James Mattis as defense secretary. The president's own say there will no rapid withdrawal and a listed conditions that now must be met.

John Bolton's comments directly counter the president's mid-December vow to immediately bring U.S. troops home, and it seems like a serious walk-back of the president's promises.

We have a lot to discuss. Let's begin with CNN's Lauren Fox live on Capitol Hill with the shutdown, I guess, negotiations.

LAUREN FOX, CNN POLITICS CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, John.

The Trump administration trying to respond to Democratic criticism this morning, laying out their list of demands and playing fast and loose with facts about terrorism, trying to make their case for the wall.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FOX (voice-over): President Trump standing firm on his demand for $5.7 billion for a border wall. Again, insisting that he's considering funding the wall through executive action.

TRUMP: I may declare a national emergency dependent on what's going to happen over the next few days.

FOX: Declaring a national emergency could allow the president to bypass Congress and use military funding to build the wall. But Democrats insist this move would be challenged in court.

REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D), CALIFORNIA: Look, if Harry Truman couldn't nationalize the steel industry during wartime, this president doesn't have the power to declare an emergency and build a multibillion-dollar wall on the border.

FOX: White House officials detailing the president's demand in this letter sent to congressional leaders. The letter now redefines Trump's border wall as a steel barrier, rather than a concrete wall, which the president has repeatedly promised. A tactic White House officials say is a sign of compromise.

MICK MULVANEY, ACTING WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF: If asked to give up a concrete wall and replace it with a steel fence in order to do that so that Democrats can say, "See? He's not building a wall anymore." That should help us move ahead.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You want the headline to be --

FOX: The letter also asked for an additional $800 million to address the urgent humanitarian needs on the border. A nod to concerns expressed by Democrats about the treatment of migrants, and increasing money for detention beds to a total of $4.2 billion for 52,000 more beds.

It comes as a source says another weekend of negotiations failed to produce any progress toward reopening the government, leaving both sides openly frustrated.

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: The impression you get from the president that he would like to not only close government, build a wall, but also abolish Congress. So the only voice that mattered was his own.

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: The goal is not to open up the government. The goal is to fix a broken immigration system. It was pretty clear to me that we're never going to have a deal unless we get a wall as part of it.

FOX: Democrats vowing to pressure lawmakers by passing individual bills to reopen each of the closed federal agencies.

SEN. STENY HOYER (D), MARYLAND: We'll do it bill by bill so we can help taxpayers. We can help people who need food assistance, and we help people who need housing vouchers, people who need flood insurance.

FOX: Two Senate Democrats urging their colleagues to block action on any bills unrelated to opening the government until a resolution is reached.

Meanwhile, President Trump insisting that he can relate to the financial plight of the 800,000 workers currently furloughed or working without pay.

TRUMP: I can relate, and I'm sure that the people that are -- or the receiving end will make adjustment. They always do.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FOX: Now, the House and Senate are both out of session today, and there's no word on when congressional leaders will meet again at the White House with President Trump.

[06:05:09] Remember, after that Friday meeting, the president telling Chuck Schumer that this shutdown could last months or years -- John and Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: Thank you very much, Lauren.

Joining us now, CNN senior political reporter Nia-Malika Henderson; former special assistant to President George W. Bush, Scott Jennings; and former Clinton White House press secretary Joe Lockhart.

Happy Monday, everybody. Great to see all of you.

Joe, I want to start with playing with what Sarah Sanders tried to say over the weekend, because I think it is Exhibit A in how they fear monger, how they use misleading numbers, how they try to fudge the numbers. I mean, without shame, you know, on national TV trying to suggest that the southern border is being overrun by terrorists. That's why we need a wall. Terrorists are pouring into the southern border.

The Department of Homeland Security says not a single terrorist has been arrested at the southern -- I mean, here's -- here's what -- when you ask the State Department for real figures, what they say is no credible information from any member of a terrorist group has traveled through Mexico to gain access to the United States. OK? So the State Department has to put that out, because Sarah Sanders and Secretary Nielsen and President Trump are trying to say something different.

So here's what she tried to get past Chris Wallace on FOX News.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SARAH SANDERS, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: We know that roughly -- nearly 4,000 known or suspected terrorists come into our country illegally, and we know that our most vulnerable point of entry is at our southern border.

CHRIS WALLACE, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: Wait, wait, I know this statistic. I didn't know if you were going to use it, but I studied up this. Do you know where those 4,000 people come, where they're captured? Airports.

SANDERS: Not always.

WALLACE: At airports.

SANDERS: But certainly -- certainly --

WALLACE: The State Department says there hasn't been any terrorists that they found coming across the southern border.

SANDERS: It's by air; it's by land; and it's by sea. It's by all of the above.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CAMEROTA: No, it's not. No, it's not. No, it's not. They come through airports.

What's happening here?

JOE LOCKHART, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I mean, it's laughable, but it shouldn't be. And, you know, Sarah Sanders, I think, lost her credibility a long time ago. But the secretary, a Senate-confirmed woman who --

CAMEROTA: Was pedaling that same number.

LOCKHART: -- is pedaling that same number. And the president has lost his.

I mean, just take one step back. And if you are a terrorist, do you want to come through a border that has thousands of border control guards, that has now 15,000 or so troops there? You're not coming.

The -- the only recorded terrorist apprehension that I know of in the last 20 years happened at the northern border around the millennium. So it's -- it's become -- we've become numb to it, but we saw probably the best example in a while of how they will say anything; and it's all about creating a reality that's different than the facts.

And that's dangerous, because we're now making -- we now have the government shutdown based on a fantasy. And you know, the most startling thing from this weekend was "The New York Times" story yesterday where they talked about where the wall idea came up with. It was Roger Stone and Sam Nunberg, who were frustrated that the president kept forgetting to talk about immigration in his speech. And they found that if he -- if they said, "Build a wall," he'd remember it, because he's a builder.

CAMEROTA: It's a memory device.

LOCKHART: The government is shut down now because of that fantasy from two kooky political advisers and Donald Trump. Think about that for a minute.

BERMAN: It's interesting. I mean, Chris Wallace laughed at Sarah Sanders. I mean, he was visibly laughing at Sarah Sanders yesterday.

The facts are laughing at Sarah Sanders and the assessment and the assertion she made, Nia. But my question, then, is what does it tell us about where the White House thinks these negotiations stand right now? Where do they think they are? Why do they feel that they need something like this?

NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: I think they are where they always have been with this issue. It is this notion that there is this -- a flood of dangerous criminals coming from the southern border. That has been the play that we've seen from this White House. That's the play that we saw from Donald Trump, the candidate, as well, going back to his 2015 speech.

And so this is what they've tried. I think it clearly hasn't worked. It didn't work on the Republicans when they were in control of both Houses. It's certainly not going to work on Democrats at this point.

What is interesting, though, is they seem to be really sort of grasping for straws here, this idea of, you know, what the conversation there was yesterday on FOX and even the president saying, "Well, now it's a -- it's steel slats; it's not a concrete wall, the Democrats might accept this." They seem to be making it up as they go along. I don't think they really realize not only the sort of impact of the government shutdown, but they also just don't have a very good argument.

So you hear from the president over and over again, the same kind of rhetoric, which hasn't worked with Republicans who were in control, again, over the last two years. And it certainly is not going to work with Democrats.

But I do think the second part of this that, I think, gives us an insight into how this White House and how this president is thinking is this idea of a national emergency. Right?

That seems to perhaps be an off-ramp, even though, as many people have said, it looks like it would sort of run into court challenges. But that seems to be where they are.

But also what's interesting is the idea of the national emergency is it contradicts something else they say, which is we'll leave this problem lingering for months, maybe years, and leave the government shut down if, you know, they don't get a wall.

So it's either a national emergency or it's something that can be, you know, part of a government shutdown over months and years. So you sort of can't have it both ways.

CAMEROTA: Scott, the threat of a national emergency, that the president could call a national emergency and then thereby bypass Congress. That's an idol threat, right? I mean, you don't see that possibly happening?

SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I mean, the president has done things in an unconventional way since he took office. So no, I don't see it as an idle threat. I think if he's threatened, that he may try.

Now, I've heard people in Washington say that you can do it, and I've heard people say that you can't, and I've heard everyone say it's likely to go to court. So I'm not sure it's going to get the quick resolution that he hopes for.

I don't understand the White House's transitioning to a different argument on Sunday on this border wall. You know, this has been an illegal immigration debate heretofore. That's what's worked for the president, I think, with his people.

Now they're transitioning to a debate over terrorism. If you follow Sarah's words to their logical conclusion, you not only need a wall on the southern border but you need one northern border, as well. Because the idea that 4,000 terrorists are willing to come by any means possible means you've got to seal up all the borders north and south.

CAMEROTA: And the sky. We would need, actually, a border over the sky -- sorry to interrupt you, but we would also need a border over the sky, because those terrorists were captured --

JENNINGS: Yes.

CAMEROTA: -- sometimes at foreign airports as they tried to board a plane, not even here.

BERMAN: Yes. A better place for the White House to get back to is to have this fight over immigration. And I do think a great many people believe we do need border security.

And the deal has always been there for the president. Trade the wall and some kind of border security for a fix on the DREAMers. Now, you've got Lindsey Graham and other Trump allies out there, saying that that should be on the table. That's a good sign.

The president is saying he wants to wait until the Supreme Court rules. That's unnecessary, in my opinion. I think if the president wanted to end this, you know, 5 billion plus 800,000 for -- 800 million for humanitarian aid, that is a pittance to get this fix for the DREAMers, which they deserve, by the way.

So I think the deal has always been there. They should stop meandering around looking for other arguments. Make the deal on immigration. That's the deal that's going to finish this.

I think it's interesting that Scott is saying this this morning. And it's interesting that Thom Tillis and Cory Gardner and Susan Collins were saying, "End the shutdown and make a deal."

I think it's interesting that Jared Kushner walked into these negotiations willing to talk, perhaps about DREAMers, this weekend. I find that all very interesting.

CAMEROTA: Because when you hear rational thought, it does get your attention.

BERMAN: What it tells me is that there is pressure. There is building pressure within the Republican Party to do something. The question is how will the White House respond to it?

One facet of the response was the deceit from Sarah Sanders. Another facet is the president now saying steel slats, now completely --

CAMEROTA: A barrier.

BERMAN: Steel barrier, but now saying steel slats. Let's be honest: slats is such a great word.

CAMEROTA: It is, but I don't know if we've lost that, if now we're at a steel barrier, just like a flat steel barrier. I just can't tell anymore.

BERMAN: I can't tell anyone anymore either. But, Joe, so the $6 billion includes 234 miles of new fencing or new barrier. The Democrats that we've had on, right, you ask them, "Would you allow for any new fencing?" Like, "Well, maybe."

So is there a deal from the Democrats' side. If there's give and take here, could the Democrats give some new fencing? A mile of new fencing?

LOCKHART: Sure. I think the Democrats, if you could make the case and the professionals could make a case that it helped border security to put, you know, five miles here and ten miles there, they would. They're not going to now without getting something in return, and that's -- I think Scott's right, that's a deal on DACA and DREAMers.

I think the pressure is steadily going to ramp up this week as the Democrats and the House under Speaker Pelosi start trying to pass these separate appropriation bills. That really puts pressure on Mitch McConnell and the Senate, because you're now making the argument that we should keep the Treasury Department closed. We should keep the Interior Department closed because we're arguing over border security.

The second thing is one of the reasons why, I think, these shutdowns have happened more often, generally work for Democrats and not Republicans is they remind people what government actually does for people.

I mean, Republicans are always arguing for small government, Democrats for larger government. That's a traditional debate. But people take for granted what the government does for you.

But when you stop getting your Food Stamps assistance, you stop getting your low -- your heating assistance. When you stop -- when you don't get your tax return on time, when you can't go to a national park, even though you've planned the vacation with your family. When you got airport, and you have to wait on a much longer line, and you have the airline pilots now saying the skies aren't safe, that reminds people the government actually does something. That works against Republicans.

CAMEROTA: Let's talk about Syria, Nia. It sounds like that also is shifting. As you'll recall, the president sort of impetuously declared, without consulting other people, that U.S. troops were going to rapidly leave Syria. And now his national security adviser, John Bolton, seemed to be changing that tune. Here's what he said this weekend.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN BOLTON, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR: We're going to be discussing the president's decision to withdraw but to do so from northeast Syria in a way that makes sure that ISIS is defeated and is not able to revive itself and become a threat again. And to make sure that the -- defense of Israel and our other friends in the region is absolutely assured.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: He changed the timeline also, I mean, to months or longer.

HENDERSON: Yes. That's right. And this is a surprise. The president was so bold in talking about this. He talked about it in front of troops when he visited Iraq, basically said the military leaders had come to him time and time again to extend the troops in -- in Syria. And he did it for a little while. Then he finally decided that the young men and women over there could come home. He said this over and over again.

And then you had, obviously, outrage from Republican hawks, most prominently, probably Lindsey Graham, who said this would basically be a boom for ISIS if the U.S. pulled out of Syria.

And he went over, and he talked to the president about this. And it seemed to be, in some ways, that meeting that changed the president's mind. And this idea that Republicans on the Hill, Senate Republicans, the folks in the House, as well, just couldn't imagine that this is something that a Republican president would do. And so now you have what seems to be a pretty complete reversal.

BERMAN: Yes.

HENDERSON: I mean, this idea that they're not going to pull out until the complete defeat of ISIS, it very much contradicts what the president said, which was a pullout within 30 days or so.

BERMAN: Look, I don't know if it's a reversal from the president yet, because we have yet to hear him say it.

CAMEROTA: Yes, it's true.

BERMAN: Until I hear it from him, frankly, I'm not going to believe it. And I do think, though, Scott -- and we'll let you have the last word on this quickly -- the John Bolton plan as unveiled yesterday, I don't think Jim Mattis quits over the John Bolton plan. The John Bolton plan allows for conditions and allows for a situation on the ground there, which is all Mattis ever wanted.

JENNINGS: Yes. We don't know what the U.S. position is right now. The president has said one thing. Bolton has said another. I personally hope Bolton is laying out what our position actually is, because I think it's much better policy.

But if it took this to get to that better policy, it cost us Jim Mattis as secretary of defense, which is a terrible thing, in my opinion.

So I hope that what Bolton said sticks, that it's true, and that the president backs him up. But until we hear the president affirm everything Bolton said, we're not entirely sure what our plan is.

I know this. Trusting Turkey to protect our Kurdish allies, I don't see how that's ever going to fly with Turkey. So I'd be surprised if what Bolton laid out is actually the case.

The more important issue is are we abandoning Israel on defending them against the Iranian influence in Syria? To me that's where the real problem is. Our only friend in the region, Israel, certainly wasn't happy with the president's decision.

BERMAN: All right. Scott, Joe, Nia, thank you very much. Fascinating that we're going to have to wait and see what the president's reaction is to the Bolton plan on Syria.

CAMEROTA: And then you'll believe it? I was interested that you'll only believe it after you hear the president.

BERMAN: Well, I suppose I will believe that's the president's position now.

CAMEROTA: Today.

BERMAN: Today. It could change again.

CAMEROTA: Got it.

BERMAN: All right. New Democratic member of Congress, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, getting into a Twitter spat with a Republican lawmaker over comments she made in a new interview. What she said that has the House minority whip fired up. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:22:51] BERMAN: Newly-minted member of Congress Alexandria Ocasio- Cortez got into a Twitter feud with the House minority whip, Steve Scalise, after she told "60 Minutes" she wants the super-rich to pay a lot more in taxes. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ (D), NEW YORK: There's an element where, yes, they're -- people are going to have to start paying their fair share in taxes.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR AND "60 Minutes" HOST: Do you have a specific on the tax rate?

OCASIO-CORTEZ: Once you get to like the tippy tops on your 10 millionth dollar, sometimes you see tax rates as high as 60 or 70 percent. That doesn't mean all $10 million are taxed at an extremely high rate, but it means that as you climb this up ladder, you should be contributing more. (END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Back now with Joe Lockhart, Nia-Malika Henderson and Scott Jennings.

And I am not defending an incredibly high marginal tax rate, but people hear 70 percent tax rate in this day and age; and their minds explode. I just want people to know that it did exist in this country for a long time. We had 90 percent marginal tax rates well into the 1960s here.

But, Scott, I could sense you and other Republicans listening to Representative Cortez say that on TV last night and a warm glow just surrounded you immediately, why?

JENNINGS: Well, I love Cortez. I know a lot of Republicans are sort of after her all the time, and I love her because she has restored honesty to politics. There's finally an honest Democrat in Washington, D.C. They'll tell you exactly what they're thinking, exactly what they want to do.

No. 1, they want to raise your taxes. No. 2 they want to impeach the president. No. 3, if they get their facts wrong, she told Anderson Cooper, "Well, that's fine, because what I'm saying is moral."

This is what Democrats actually think, and they're willing to be honest about it. She's willing to be honest about it, whereas Nancy Pelosi and the Democratic leadership try to hide the ball on all these things.

So I hope Cortez and the rest of these freshmen keep talking, because they're being honest about the Democratic agenda for America; and I think that's good for Republicans in 2020.

CAMEROTA: Joe, not all Democrats share Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's feelings on a host of things. And I'm just curious how you feel as a Democrat that, you know, she's one of 535 members of Congress. But she's getting a lot of attention.

LOCKHART: Right.

[06:25:03] CAMEROTA: Is that helpful for other Democrats?

LOCKHART: Well, listen, I mean, Republicans may need to -- they may rue the day -- rue the day that they created -- helped create this. I mean, not that her winning and stunning victory didn't. But the fact that it's Republicans shining the light on her, because they think it helps them.

And I think, you know, you can make this argument either way: 70 percent, mind blown; or if you make more than $10 million a year, every dollar after 10 million should be taxed at a higher rate. I think that works in a lot of America.

BERMAN: It's the same thing. That's the same thing. LOCKHART: But, it depends on how you make the argument. Here's what

I think is the important thing, which is when the Republicans came into power, they very quickly -- the Freedom Caucus, the most conservatives, the people who have basically shut the government down over and over again took control -- and the leader, whether it be Paul Ryan or John Boehner could never manage the House because of that.

I don't think that a couple of new congresspeople coming in with, you know, big ideas are going to run the Democratic Caucus. That's the test. Can you have bright new people with ideas that some people in the party like, some people don't? But will Nancy Pelosi and Steny Hoyer and Jim Clymer be able to push through the agenda?

I think they will be. I don't think they're going to make the mistake that Paul Ryan and John Boehner made of letting the Freedom, the most conservatives, you know, gum up the works and run the caucus.

BERMAN: Let's listen to a little bit more of that interview that Anderson did with her last night on 60 Minutes where Representative Cortez called the president a racist. We can play the short version.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Do you believe President Trump is a racist?

OCASIO-CORTEZ: Yes. Yes. No question.

COOPER: How can you say that?

OCASIO-CORTEZ: When you look at the words that he uses, which are historic dog whistles of white supremacy, when you look at how he reacted to the Charlottesville incident, where neo-Nazis murdered a woman, versus how he manufactures crises like immigrants seeking legal refuge on our borders, it's night and day.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: She has been in Congress for four days, Nia, and she's getting the "60 Minutes" treatment. What is it about her that is causing so much fascination and endorsement, even from Scott Jennings?

HENDERSON: Yes, I mean, she is just very real and raw. She's very well-spoken. I think she understands this new landscape of social media. I don't know if you've looked at her Twitter or Instagram feed. She invites people in. She was at one point making mac-n- cheese in an Instapot. And so there's that.

You know, and certainly progressives, young progressives very much like what they see in her. She's 29 years old. She speaks their language. She's not afraid to really kind of, I think, push the envelope in terms of where the Democratic Party should be, something that Bernie Sanders did, as well.

But here she is reflecting, I think, the diversity of the Democratic caucus and the diversity of voters, really, who really, I think, in many ways, if you look at Democrats, have wanted somebody like this, right, that represents sort of the younger -- the younger spectrum of the party.

So yes, and then you have that, not only Democrats interested in her, and then Republicans very much wanting to paint her as the entire Democratic Party. So, yes, I mean, there's a mix there; and so that's why you get her having not only 2 million Twitter followers, but the "60 Minutes" treatment; certainly, a more mainstream arena for her to be.

CAMEROTA: Scott, and then there's Joe Biden. And Joe Biden is debating whether or not he's going to be getting into the race. I mean, you have the new school, AOC, as she's called; and then you have Joe Biden, who represents, you know, obviously, old-school and establishment.

Here's what he told a Democratic official, according to "The New York Times" this weekend: "If you can persuade me there is somebody better who can win, I'm happy not to do it. But I don't see the candidate who can clearly do what has to be done to win."

As a Republican, Scott, does the idea of a Joe Biden race scare you? Do you think that he would be effective against Donald Trump?

JENNINGS: I don't think he's their best candidate. I've never thought Biden was the best option for them. I think they should do what had -- gave them success in 2018, frankly, which was younger candidates, female candidates, minority candidates.

It strikes me they just had success with this, and they should try it again. There's a number of options that aren't Joe Biden.

Joe Biden, by the way, got a delegate for president at the 1984 Democratic National Convention. I have a hard time believing that a Democratic Party that wants to be younger, that wants to be more modern, is going to nominate a candidate for president in 2020 that got a delegate in 1984.

BERMAN: And that wasn't even the one he ran in, that race. He did better in the election he didn't even run in.

Joe, what does happen if Biden enters? Because I think it has a profound impact on the field.

LOCKHART: I think it does, too. But let me say first, if you ask me about the Republican field, don't pay any attention to me. I'm playing politics. But, but, I think it does -- it is -- it is the first and most important thing to happen in this race.