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Trump Lawyer Can't Say if Campaign Aides Colluded with Russia; Dems Target Trump's State of the Union Address in Shutdown Fight. Aired 6-6:30a ET

Aired January 17, 2019 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: There has been no collusion between the Trump campaign and Russians.

[05:59:50] RUDY GIULIANI, LAWYER FOR DONALD TRUMP: I never said there was no collusion between the campaign or people on the campaign.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He knows that there is very strong evidence of collusion, and he is trying to get out ahead of that evidence.

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY), MINORITY LEADER: The government is closed because of President Trump. I think it's a good idea to delay it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's not for the speaker to say we should reschedule and to disinvite the president.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't understand why we are being penalized for a wall that we have nothing to do with.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY with Alisyn Camerota and John Berman.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: We want to welcome our viewers in the United States and around the world. This is NEW DAY. It is Thursday, January 17, 6 a.m. here in New York. And new this morning, a remarkable statement from President Trump's lawyer, Rudy Giuliani.

Last night he conceded that he cannot say whether Trump campaign aides clued with Russia. Listen to what he told our Chris Cuomo just last night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GIULIANI: I never said there was no collusion between the campaign or between people in the campaign. I have no idea. I have not. I said the president of the United States. There is not a single bit of evidence the president of the United States committed the only crime you could commit here: conspired with the Russians to hack the DNC.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Well, we have the old video that proves otherwise.

Meanwhile, President Trump has repeatedly denied, of course, that he or anyone in his campaign coordinated with Russia.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: There has been no collusion between the Trump campaign and Russians or Trump and Russians. No collusion.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: OK, but you will remember that court filing last week that gave us the clearest evidence yet that the Trump campaign may have coordinated with the Kremlin. Prosecutors say former Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort shared internal polling data with two Kremlin- connected Ukrainian oligarchs through a Russian national linked to Russian intelligence.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, I think the important thing here is the president's own lawyer just opened the door -- and we are talking wide, wide open -- to the notion of collusion. He was basically saying, "OK, so maybe there was some collusion."

So why? Why is he saying that? What does he know? What is he foreshadowing? We're going to get some answers this hour.

Plus, a new big development in the longest government shutdown in U.S. history. The speaker of the House, Nancy Pelosi, more or less disinviting the president from delivering the State of the Union address to a joint session of Congress.

She said she wants to discuss waiting until the government is open before he comes to Congress, or simply, he should deliver the speech in writing. Remember, some 800,000 workers are still not getting paid and White House economists are saying it is having twice the negative impact on the economy than they initially thought.

Joining us now, CNN political analyst David Gregory; David Sanger, national security correspondent for "The New York Times" who had an interesting conversation with the president at one point, we might add; and former federal prosecutor, Shan Wu.

Shan, I want to start with you because you're the lawyer here. What is Rudy Giuliani doing, all of a sudden basically saying -- and I'm paraphrasing here loosely -- "OK, so maybe there was some collusion, just not the president"?

SHAN WU, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: He's looking for a safe space to go to. And really, it's in some ways, not surprising at all. First of all, he changes his story a lot.

But the evidence at that point, in my opinion, technically, it's already established there's collusion. You have Manafort's meeting and giving the polling information. You have other folks who have lied about contacts. That's already there. That case has already been established. Now, what's not established is did somebody in the campaign actually

authorize that? Who else knew about it? Does it go to the president? But at this point, it's already closed book on the fact that there was contact between Trump's campaign and the Russians.

CAMEROTA: David Gregory, let's just parse what Rudy Giuliani said again, because, you know, there's one school of thought which is, wow, he really sort of shoots from the hip; and, you know, he accidentally says things on camera.

And then if you look at what he has said over the past year, sometimes it -- it previews that a -- something that he says that sounds outlandish then previews something, some news that's about to break. Such as Stormy Daniels, when he said, it seemed in an aside to Sean Hannity, "Oh, well, you know, the president reimbursed Michael Cohen for that," and everybody, you know, hit the brakes and said, "What?" And it turned out that the president had -- there was money involved and money exchanged.

So let's just listen one more time to what Rudy Giuliani told Chris Cuomo last night and see why if we can understand why he's saying it now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GIULIANI: I never said there was no collusion between the campaign or between people in the campaign. I have no idea. I have not. I said the president of the United States. There is not a single bit of evidence the president of the United States committed the only crime you could commit here, conspired with the Russians to hack the DNC.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: You know what, David? One more thing. I do just want to play back in July Rudy Giuliani made -- I think you might have been on with me, David Gregory, the day That Rudy Giuliani came on and made the rounds.

DAVID GREGORY, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes. He's still talking.

CAMEROTA: We had a long interview that day. And right after my interview with him, he then went on -- he said so many things during our NEW DAY interview. He then went on FOX, and they had to ask him to clarify. Let me play what he said on FOX, which is completely different than what he said last night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[06:05:15] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is it still the position of you and your client that there was no collusion with the Russians whatsoever on behalf of the Trump campaign?

GIULIANI (via phone): Correct. When I say the Trump campaign, I mean the upper levels of the Trump campaign. I have no reason to believe anybody else did.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: OK. So that's when he said there was no collusion, and last night he changed. What's going on?

GREGORY: Well, you know, what we don't know is how much Giuliani knows at this point. The role he's playing is kind of chief pugilist on TV, as TV lawyer for President Trump.

But what he's established, I think, over a long period of time, what he's tried to establish is, "Well, whatever bad may have been going on, Donald Trump was not responsible, is not guilty of anything." This kind of attempt to insulate the president from any actual criminal wrongdoing.

We don't know what comes of that and what Mueller actually has. But what I see is the outlines of a strategy here and a defense, is there may have been some bad actors who were -- who were, you know, sharing information, who were working with the Russians in their quest to destabilize the election, but it wasn't Trump and he didn't know about it.

The problem with that is how is, as the head of the campaign, as the candidate and ultimately, the president do you not own any of that in if it actually happened?

And secondarily, we also know of a lot of contacts, whether it was his son, potentially, talking to him after a meeting. The president knew of stuff that was going on as a candidate, and we have confirmation of that by the fact that he is -- he runs everything. He is his own chief of staff. He as a gut player who likes to dictate everything. The idea that he was totally insulated from that is pretty hard to believe.

BERMAN: Look, Rudy Giuliani, in the theater, David Gregory, will appreciate there's a term called Chekhov's gun. You see the gun in the first act, it has to go off in the second or third.

When Rudy Giuliani says what he says last night, that "It wasn't the president who colluded. I never said no one else did," what that says in the first act, we're going to find out who did collude. To me, that's what he is here. He also said a lot of other things to Chris last night. Let's play a little bit more of these new parameters set out by the president's own lawyer.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: He's viable at the head of the campaign, giving polling data that winds up having the same faces and places targeted by the campaign that are targeted by Russian trolls. How is that not collusion?

GIULIANI: It's not collusion.

CUOMO: How is it not?

GIULIANI: Well, because polling data is given to everybody. I mean, he shouldn't have given it to them. It's wrong to give it to them.

CUOMO: It's not given to anybody.

GIULIANI: I can't speak for Paul Manafort. Of course it is. First are of all, the most inappropriate, the most inaccurate stuff is internal polling data.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: All right. Leave that aside. Let's go back to the collusion for a second, where the president said, essentially, "I never said there was no collusion between the campaign."

And he also says the only crime here that could possibly be committed is that the president somehow personally hacked the DNC's computers there.

David Sanger, that's not the case. I mean, the special counsel's mandate was to go out and find any links and/or coordination between the Russian government and individuals associated with the campaign of President Donald Trump.

Again, it seems to me what Rudy Giuliani is doing is telling us one thing, and we're going to find out a whole lot more about it tomorrow.

DAVID SANGER, CNN POLITICAL AND NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, John, when I heard it, I thought the defense now is down to Plan "C."

Plan "A" was that the White House press secretary and others came out in 2017 and said no one from the campaign had any contact with the Russians, period. We now know there are a lot of contacts with the Russians.

CAMEROTA: And a lot of guilty pleas and convictions as a result.

SANGER: And a lot of guilty pleas and convictions and conversations between the national security advisor, Flynn, at the time, and Paul Manafort and others.

Plan "B" was to say no one actually colluded, all those tapes that you just ran. There may have been contacts, but it wasn't collusion, that came from the president himself.

Now Plan "C" is there may have been collusion. It may have been at the higher levels, but it didn't hit the president. So they're basically the last firewall is the president himself. Which was what makes it so interesting that the president worked so hard in the first year or two to make the argument that maybe the Russians didn't have anything to do with the hacking of the DNC at all. Which was the core of that conversation that you mentioned.

BERMAN: We'll get to that, I promise you.

CAMEROTA: But David Sanger, I want to stick with you for a second, because you, as it turns out, were integral -- you played an integral role in this new reporting about what the president and Vladimir Putin spoke about in Hamburg. And we don't know because, as you know, there was nobody else allowed in the room other than the interpreter; and he then took his interpreter's notes and asked -- and told his interpreter never to share any of this with anyone.

[06:10:03] And so in the "New York Times" Peter Baker is reporting this week, "The day after the two meetings, Mr. Trump was on Air Force One taking off from Germany heading back to Washington. He telephoned a 'Times' reporter, and he argued that the Russians were falsely accused of election interference. While he insisted most of the conversations be off the record, he later repeated a few things in public in little-noticed asides."

You were that reporter that he phoned.

SANGER: Yes.

CAMEROTA: Something happened in Hamburg during that conversation that made President Trump want to call you and say the Russians had been falsely accused. And something happened during that conversation that was either so sensitive or so embarrassing to the president that he confiscated the interpreter's notes.

SANGER: That's right. In Hamburg, there was one other witness. It would be interesting to hear from him, and it's Rex Tillerson.

CAMEROTA: Well, hold on a second, because there were a few different meetings in Hamburg. So Rex Tillerson was in one of them.

SANGER: The primary.

CAMEROTA: And then there was a dinner conversation that was private.

SANGER: That's right. And for that, the president didn't even have his interpreter. I believe it was only the Russian interpreter. So we're not likely to hear from him.

So the phone call was -- and as it said, most of it was off-the- record. But some of what he said to me, he then immediately said when he landed back in public. So it was in his mind.

And what it basically was, was that Vladimir Putin had made the argument that the Russians are so good at hacking that, had they done it, they never would have been caught.

And he said, "I found that a pretty convincing argument."

I said to him, "Well, you know, if you go back and look at what the intelligence reports told you, they all told you that Vladimir Putin not only was aware of it, he ordered. Do you believe your own U.S. intelligence reports or Putin?"

And he said, "How could I believe people like John Brennan and Comey and so forth?" It -- he took it immediately to the personal, that they're so political that he couldn't believe them.

CAMEROTA: And so he believes Vladimir Putin over them, and that is the upshot.

SANGER: Well, could be that, or it could be that he needed to establish a storyline that will never prove that it was the Russians.

And what's happened since? A very detailed indictment of the GRU from Mueller, with conversations among the Russians on this issue. And maybe that's what Rudy Giuliani is a little worried about here, because if Mueller was so deeply inside the Russian system that he had conversations among GRU officers and others, makes you wonder what other conversations he may have between the Russians and campaign managers.

BERMAN: Just to be clear, this is in the summer of 2017, well after the campaign, and the president is proactively calling you.

SANGER: That's right.

BERMAN: To make the case, a case, that the Russians did not attack the U.S. election system.

SANGER: And then he came out in public about a day or two later -- no one really paid attention to it at the time -- and said, "Well, it's not at all clear. Many people say the Russians are so good we'd never see this." That was basically his line during that summer.

BERMAN: And can I ask also, during this time also, because everything happened so closely together in this summer, was also the time when he was dictating memos and dictating responses about Donald Trump Jr.'s meeting in Trump Tower with the Russians where Trump Jr. was promised dirt on Hillary Clinton from the Russians.

SANGER: It was on that same flight. He called me as they were taking off. We got disconnected at some point as the plane went up. It was on his cell phone. And then it looks like, from what's been reconstructed since, that that's when he worked up the answer, what we now believe to be a false or at least misleading answer about what the meeting at Trump Tower was all about.

CAMEROTA: Shan Wu, this is why lawmakers today would like to subpoena that interpreter, because something happened in Hamburg during those meetings -- We don't know what -- that was so inspiring to President Trump that he wanted to call David Sanger and say that the Russians had been falsely accused of election interference.

SHAN WU, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Absolutely. And there's no interpreter privilege that attaches. So that's something that is viable.

And, you know, this problem with the president wanting to have these private conversations, that's exactly the reason why lawyers are so careful to have witnesses. Prosecutors have agents. Defense counsel have their own investigators there, because you don't want to be the only person there.

He needs to have skilled people with him, experts on the subject matter, to avoid, one, misunderstandings; two, misconceptions; and, three, someone else saying that he said something that he didn't say. And his insistence on not doing it that way really works, not only to the detriment of the governance but also leaves him wide open to the allegations that come out at this point. I mean, it originates in the counterintelligence investigation. It's becoming more and more clear why it originated in a counterintelligence investigation.

GREGORY: And can I just say, we get insight into the president's frame of mind, both as a candidate and then as a president. Who throughout, as David was referencing, his view that his own intelligence services and those who head it were so tainted that they couldn't be trusted, that the fix was in against him, that he had to operate outside of them to have a conversation with Putin.

[06:15:17] Again, we don't know what the content is. It raises all kinds of questions about what they were discussing, what the intent of it was. I won't even speculate, except to say how suspicious that is.

But that he would operate outside of that, because in his mind, no one else could be trusted on this issue, because everybody was conspiring against him. That's the mindset that I guarantee you will be taken to the very end in his own defense of whatever they find.

BERMAN: Shan, I just want to wrap this conversation up again with this new place we seem to be in this morning than we were last night, when Rudy Giuliani came on CNN and basically said, "I never said there was no collusion between the campaign."

In the past, going back to the Stormy Daniels days, you know, Rudy Giuliani would go on TV and say, you know, "The president paid or he authorized the payment of Stormy Daniels."

And everyone thought, "Oh, my gosh. That's crazy. What is Rudy doing here?" But it seems to have been something deliberate. Is that what's going on here?

WU: I think so. And remember, Giuliani is the personal attorney. So his loyalty, his job is to protect the human being here, as opposed to the administration or the president.

So even if he does not have access to a lot of incriminating facts that Mueller may know, his instinct certainly tells him that this is a problem. The walls are basically narrowing. David's point of Plan "A," "B," and "C," he's down to Plan "D" or "E" at this point. So he's got to go in that direction. I think it shows he understands the dangers involved here.

And I think it shows that he understands the dangers involved here. And the last defense, the last firewall, really, is to make sure you protect your human being, the client.

CAMEROTA: Gentlemen, thank you very much for helping us attempt to analyze what is happening this morning and last night.

Meanwhile, Democrats are escalating the political fight over the government shutdown. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi is asking the president to postpone the State of the Union address or deliver it in writing until the government is reopened. She's citing security concerns.

Meanwhile, we enter day 27 of the shutdown, and there are mounting stories of the real-life impact on people who are suddenly without a paycheck and scrambling to make ends meet.

So CNN's Jason Carroll joins us now with more.

Good morning, Jason.

JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And good morning to you.

And you've seen it. Those stories are coming in from across the country, food banks stepping in to help. Federal workers protesting. Meanwhile, no progress in Washington and still no word from the president himself about the State of the Union.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The president of the United States.

CARROLL (voice-over): A White House official tells CNN that, at this point, President Trump still plans to deliver his State of the Union speech as scheduled after House Speaker Nancy Pelosi sent him a letter asking the White House to delay the January 29 address or deliver it in writing.

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: This is -- there's hundreds of people. Most of those people are either furloughed or victims of the shutdown, the president's shutdown. But that isn't the point. The point is security.

CARROLL: Homeland security secretary Kirstjen Nielsen pushing back, insisting that her department is "fully prepared to support and secure the State of the Union."

House GOP leader Kevin McCarthy accusing Pelosi of playing politics, calling her power play "unbecoming of the speaker" as Democratic leadership voiced support for the move.

SCHUMER: The government is closed because of President Trump. If it continues to be closed on the lay 29th, I think it's a good idea to it until government is open.

CARROLL: Of the over 722,000 Secret Service employees, 5,978 are considered essential, meaning they would be working without pay; 1,244 are furloughed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Throughout the agency, the morale is starting to deteriorate.

CARROLL: That message echoed by financially-strapped federal employees across the country. In Dallas, Baltimore, and Sacramento, aviation workers raising concern about safety as the TSA continues to report sky-rocketing absences.

TRISH GILBERT, EXECUTIVE VICE PRESIDENT, NATIONAL AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLERS: I would say it is less safe today than it was a month ago.

CARROLL: On Wednesday, President Trump signed a bill guaranteeing that the 800,000 government workers who are not receiving paychecks will eventually get paid. But CNN has learned that at least 2 million federal contractors could also be impacted and not eligible for back pay.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I need to know when is he going open things back up, because I'm about to be evicted.

CARROLL: A group of contractors gathered outside Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell's office Wednesday with their unpaid bills in hand, demanding that Congress and the president take action.

BONITA WILLIAMS, PART-TIME CONTRACTOR, STATE DEPARTMENT: He's messing with their life, the small people, the poor people, you know, the people that struggle every day, work paycheck to paycheck to pay their bills.

[06:20:06] CARROLL: Amid uncertainty over the USDA's free and reduced meal program, one North Carolina school district announcing they're scaling back lunches to conserve food and funding.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: As a mom, it does upset me, because a lot of kids aren't getting the proper nourishment.

CARROLL: Furloughed Fish and Wildlife service worker Mallory Lorge says that her health is also being impacted by the shutdown. Lorge says she cannot afford the copay for her insulin and has resorted to rationing, even when her levels were dangerously high last weekend.

MALLORY LORGE, FURLOUGHED FEDERAL WORKER: I can't afford an ambulance bill. I can't afford to go to the emergency room right now. I went to bed and just hoped I'd wake up.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CARROLL: Well, some local governments stepping in to try to ease the financial pain of federal workers. Late last night, the city of San Jose, for example, San Jose, California, approved short-term loans for federal employees working without pay at the local airport there. But, guys, still no end in sight.

CAMEROTA: And I mean, and for some people life and death situations, as you put it.

CARROLL: Without question.

CAMEROTA: Thank you.

BERMAN: Impact twice as bad on the economy than the White House economists initially thought.

So, will Nancy Pelosi's new power play work? Disinviting, sort of, the president to come to Congress to deliver the State of the Union address? How will the president respond? What will he do? We'll discuss next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:25:15] CAMEROTA: President Trump and House Speaker Nancy Pelosi are in a political tug of war over whether he should deliver the State of the Union address at the Capitol, given the government shutdown. So joining us now to talk about all of this, we have David Gregory, John Avlon and Jackie Kucinich, Washington bureau chief for "The Daily Beast."

John Avlon, this is a power play by Nancy Pelosi. She has to -- I didn't know this, of courses, until yesterday, but she has to invite him.

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes.

CAMEROTA: Invite him. It doesn't just automatically happen. The State of the Union does not automatically happen. So she has basically, by saying, "I don't believe that you should deliver this address until the government is reopened," disinvited him.

AVLON: She is threatening to disinvite him., and because it's a coequal branch of government, the president can't just show up to a joint session. He's got to be invited.

Look, this is a mandated annual message to Congress, but presidents only started giving it to person in the time of Woodrow Wilson. That said, this is a dangerous precedent. It is a power play, and Nancy Pelosi is revealing that she's got a Ph.D. in needling President Trump. But the precedent of this would be dangerous.

Back in 2014, a bunch of Tea Party Republicans were pressuring then- Speaker John Boehner to not invite Barack Obama, President Obama, to give his State of the Union. They were really in a fit of pique over the DREAMers and just lingering resentment over the fact he was president at all.

The only fig leaf of differentiation here is that there is a government shutdown, and they can say, "It's inappropriate, perhaps even dangerous for the president to speak during the shutdown."

CAMEROTA: She's saying it's a security issue, but doesn't that --

AVLON: Well DHS is saying they don't believe it is. They've pushed back on that. Secret Service pushed back on that. But there is a degree of differentiation with that. Government should be open when you come speak. But otherwise, I think it's a very slippery slope here.

BERMAN: Jackie, you've been doing reporting, talking to members. They did hear some concerns about security, yes?

JACKIE KUCINICH, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes. During the conference meeting, I was speaking to a member yesterday that said that, you know, they were -- they were briefed on this during their Democratic caucus meeting yesterday. But John's right: a lot of this has to do with politics. It has to do

with the fact that they -- that Nancy Pelosi would be sitting behind the president as he was railing against Democrats about the shutdown. And we know that he has kind of a strange relationship with the truth. So there also was that aspect of it.

But, you know, another thing that's been happening, or hasn't been happening on the Hill that I was hearing yesterday, is the lack of outreach at all to Democrats that could potentially help the president out with this shutdown. Democrats from Trump districts, Democrats from Trump states.

Save these members of the Problem Solvers Caucus, these seven Democrats that went over to the White House yesterday, most of these Democrats hadn't heard from the president or the legislative office, which usually is the one that contacts members of the Congress from the White House, hadn't heard from them at all. And actually, expressed surprised at that.

CAMEROTA: Right. But Jackie, I mean, he likes do it in person, you know. He likes the sort of personal touch of meeting with people.

KUCINICH: Which would require an invitation.

CAMEROTA: Right. And so that's what -- I mean, that's what, I guess, was happening with the Problem Solvers yesterday, right? We're having one of them on later in the program.

KUCINICH: Right.

CAMEROTA: But that's what they thought they were doing.

KUCINICH: Right. They were invited over to the White House. But even they said when they came back -- I spoke to Max Rose and Congressman Gottheimer. They said that they told the president, while they absolutely want to start to forge a compromise here, they're not -- they weren't there to actually negotiate. The first thing that has to happen is the government has to open, which has been the Democratic line from the very beginning.

BERMAN: It's interesting, David Gregory. You know, this president, President Trump, for better or for worse, has stomped all over many of the political norms that have existed in this country for generations. Nancy Pelosi, with this State of the Union address, seems to be saying to him, "I can play with some norms also in ways that you might not like."

GREGORY: Look, what she knows is that the president didn't really move opinion in his presidential address from the Oval Office. I'm sure he'd like another shot at that and an attempt to try to paint Democrats in a corner here, which is always the potential. Because I think we have to realize there's a lot of Americans who are not paying the kind of attention to this that we are, not keeping score, are not aware of all of the past statements about Trump, saying, "I'll own the shutdown" or whatnot. And they're just looking up at Washington as the epicenter of dysfunction in the country, and they're frustrated about it.

But he would like another shot at that, to try to dictate the narrative here. And that's what you get as president when you do a State of the Union that's carried by all the networks, cable, broadcast and that gets that kind of attention. I think Nancy Pelosi wants to deny him that and doesn't want to see him get much more traction. And so she will play with these -- with these norms.

But this is a base strategy still on both sides that I think is dangerous for both sides. And the president still has the ability to come out with a bigger deal, something that's more reasonable, you know, wall funding exchange for the DREAMers.