Return to Transcripts main page

New Day

BuzzFeed News: President Trump Directed Michael Cohen To Lie To Congress About Moscow Tower Project; Interview With Sen. Ben Cardin (D-MD); CNN Reality Check: What Happened In The Trump-Putin Meeting In Hamburg? BuzzFeed News Reporter Talks About His Explosive Trump Story. Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired January 18, 2019 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:30:28] ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Democrats seizing on this bombshell report from BuzzFeed News that President Trump directed his longtime attorney Michael Cohen to lie to Congress about negotiations to build a Trump Tower in Moscow.

Congressman Joaquin Castro says if it's true, the president, quote, "must resign or be impeached."

Joining us now is Democratic Sen. Ben Cardin. He's a member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. Good morning, Senator.

SEN. BEN CARDIN (D-MD), MEMBER, FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE: Alisyn, it's good to be with you.

CAMEROTA: Good to have you.

Can you share with us your reaction to this BuzzFeed report? Do you agree with Congressman Castro that, if true, the president must resign or be impeached?

CARDIN: Well, this information is extremely serious. There's no question about the definitions of what his criminal activity -- that's what Mr. Cohen is talking about.

But I think what Congress really needs to do is protect the Mueller investigation and get all of the Mueller investigation. We have to make sure that it's transmitted to Congress and that we have all the facts so that we have the full picture because one thing is clear, once you start the congressional process you need to be able to have sound footing to be able to get broad support.

So, it does require us to protect the Mueller investigation and to make sure that we get all of the findings.

CAMEROTA: So you disagree with your fellow Democratic senator, Chris Murphy, who tweeted this late last night. "Listen, if Mueller does have multiple sources confirming Trump directed Cohen to lie to Congress, then we need to know this ASAP. Mueller should not end his inquiry, but it's about time for him to show Congress his cards before it's too late for us to act." Do you think that there's a way for Mueller to show his cards to you sooner than the report comes out?

CARDIN: I don't necessarily disagree with Sen. Murphy.

I think Mr. Mueller is going to do this the right way. I have a great deal of confidence in Mr. Mueller and the way he is doing his investigation.

I would hope that we would get the material as quickly as possible. I agree with Sen. Murphy in that regard.

But it's not really up to us, it's up to Mr. Mueller. He has to make sure he doesn't compromise the investigation that he's doing and that he can present it in a way where it's credible and that we'll be able to use it for an effective accountability.

And I think if we try to interfere in that --

CAMEROTA: But just so I'm clear, I mean -- yes, I understand. You want the full report.

But, what would 'show his cards' even look like right now?

CARDIN: I don't know. That's what -- that's why Mueller has such integrity. He's kept this close to the vest and he has not -- there hasn't been leaks.

You know, clearly, we hear from what Mr. Cohen -- I don't think what he said is surprising us, but we would like to have all of the information in order to see whether, in fact, that we can establish what is being said.

So, there's no question that Mr. Mueller is a true professional. He understands the responsibility he has. He understands how important what he's doing for our country is. So, let's give him a chance to get the report to us and let us be able to do our responsibility with a full report from Mr. Mueller.

CAMEROTA: If the president pressured a witness to lie to Congress, that is suborning perjury, that is impeachable.

These questions actually came up, as you know, from a couple of lawmakers during --

CARDIN: Yes.

CAMEROTA: -- Bill Barr's confirmation hearing to become attorney general. So, let me play what Sen. Lindsey Graham asked him directly.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC), CHAIRMAN, SENATE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: So, if there was some reason to believe that the president tried to coach somebody not to testify or testify falsely, that could be obstruction of justice? WILLIAM BARR, NOMINEE, ATTORNEY GENERAL OF THE UNITED STATES: Yes, under that -- under an obstruction statute, yes.

GRAHAM: So, if there's some evidence that the president tried to conceal evidence, that would be obstruction of justice potentially, right?

BARR: Right.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Senator, why do you think that Sen. Lindsey Graham used his precious few minutes to ask those questions?

CARDIN: Well, you'd have to ask Sen. Graham that. But as Mr. Barr pointed out, that would be a criminal offense.

I think the questions that we have of Mr. Barr is that will he protect the Mueller investigation? Will he let Mr. Mueller do the subpoenas that he needs? Will he transmit to Congress the full report? These are issues that I have concern about Mr. Barr as to whether he'll make that available.

There's no question that if you coach a witness to lie to Congress that's a criminal offense.

CAMEROTA: But, Bill Barr answered all those questions. I mean, Bill Barr was asked those directly -- he answered them.

So, are you -- will you vote for him? What's the -- what's the -- why do you still have reservations?

[07:35:04] CARDIN: On this issue, I thought his response as to whether he'll make the full report available to Congress -- he talked about whether some of this will be redacted. We understand redacting for intelligence sources.

But we want to make sure that we get the full report and the American people get the full report, and that he won't interfere with the Mueller investigation from the point of view if needs subpoenas, needs resources, that Mr. Barr will fully support what Mr. Mueller is doing.

CAMEROTA: It sounds like Bill Barr thinks that he can filter the report for Congress or -- and the American public.

CARDIN: No, I don't think he can filter the report. I think Congress has the ultimate responsibility in regards to the constitutional powers that we have, and we have to be able to get the full unfiltered report. The only redaction should be in regards to intelligence sources or matters like that.

CAMEROTA: Senator, our other breaking news this hour was Barbara Starr's report. We now know the identities of three of the Americans killed in Syria. One of them was a woman -- a female chemical weapons specialist, as far as we understand. What do you think should happen in Syria? Should the president proceed with his plan to withdraw U.S. troops as quickly as possible? This is -- does what happened, this tragedy, change anything for you?

CARDIN: Well, Syria is very dangerous. The way the president went about his announcement on troop withdrawal, against the advice of -- by the Secretary of Defense -- compromised our national security and compromised our relationship with our allies in that region.

So, I think the president cannot act in an impulsive way as he has. I think that does compromise the safety of our troops and the mission we're trying to accomplish to wipe out ISIS.

CAMEROTA: Do you think the announcement emboldened ISIS? Do you connect this slaughter with the announcement?

CARDIN: I think the president's announcement was not done in the national security interest of the United States. It was an impulsive decision, it was against the advice of the Secretary of Defense. It was without consultation with our allies who are with us in this campaign who were very surprised to hear what the president had to say.

So, yes, I think it does make our enemies stronger when the president acts in that regard.

CAMEROTA: Very quickly, Senator, what do you think is going to happen with the government shutdown? We're now in day 28.

Now, as you know --

CARDIN: Yes.

CAMEROTA: -- the cabinet members are grounded. Speaker Pelosi's CODEL is grounded. Now, everybody is still in Washington.

Is there any way for them to roll up their sleeves -- for everyone to roll up their sleeves and to figure out a way to open the government?

CARDIN: Alisyn, Sen. Van Hollen and I met with Marylanders yesterday -- small business owners. We met with our government workers. Heard horrible stories about their personal lives, about what's happening with employment.

I would urge the president to meet with federal workers and government workers and understand the magnitude of this problem.

Government needs to be opened. The president needs to allow the government to be open and let us then negotiate, as we should, on border security issues. You can't do that while the president has us held hostage by the tactics he's using, and he keeps on undermining his own negotiators.

We need to open government. Legislation's already passed the House. It had previously passed the Senate. Mitch McConnell needs to allow us to vote on those bills. Let's open government and let us use the regular process. Democrats

and Republicans in the Senate have talked about this. Let us work to deal with border security issues, but government needs to be opened now.

CAMEROTA: Senator Ben Cardin, thank you very much for being on NEW DAY.

CARDIN: Thank you.

CAMEROTA: Coming up in just minutes, we will talk to one of the BuzzFeed reporters who broke this bombshell story on President Trump allegedly directing Michael Cohen to lie to Congress.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Up next, Michael Smerconish gives us his take on this explosive report. A lot to discuss.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:42:45] BERMAN: All right.

As we sit here, we are waiting for reaction from President Trump after this bombshell report from BuzzFeed News. Two federal law enforcement sources tell BuzzFeed that President Trump directed his longtime attorney Michael Cohen to lie to Congress. He instructed him to lie to Congress about negotiations to build a Trump Tower in Moscow.

Lying to Congress is a crime; suborning perjury is also a crime. And in the past, it has been impeachable.

Joining us now is Michael Smerconish, host of CNN's "SMERCONISH."

Michael, we are so glad you are with us this morning, first because you are a terrific attorney. Second, because you are often the voice of reason here. You take a look from 30,000 feet. You slow things down when we're going so fast down here.

This story seems like an awfully big one. If the president told Michael Cohen to lie to Congress, there's not a lot of wiggle room here.

MICHAEL SMERCONISH, CNN HOST, "SMERCONISH," SIRIUS XM: True, if that can be corroborated. I think corroboration is the word of the day and the paragraph that I circled -- we've all circled.

I've heard you discuss it in the BuzzFeed piece, is that which speaks of e-mails, text messages, and a cache of other documents. What exactly do those documents reflect because Michael Cohen, alone, is not going to move the needle?

I just interviewed Sen. Rand Paul for my own program tomorrow and in bringing this up to him, the first thing he wanted to know is, is it a 'he said, he said' where one is now a convicted felon?

And, of course, the BuzzFeed story suggests that there is corroboration. I'm so excited to watch your upcoming interview with one of the authors to try and learn more. What exactly does that corroboration look like?

I also have to say John -- and thank you for the shout out -- here's my healthy dose of skepticism.

Say what you will about Michael Cohen and Donald Trump, but they're pretty sophisticated players and to me, they strike me as practitioners of that old adage that you never write a letter nor do you ever throw one away. I would find it very hard to believe that there would be a paper trail if, in fact, the now-president had directed Michael Cohen to lie.

So, I'm open-minded to it. I want to see what's the documentary evidence. But, I'll be shocked if there really are texts that evidence the president saying I want you to lie.

[07:45:06] CAMEROTA: Yes. I mean, I don't think that the president uses texts or e-mails. At least historically, he hasn't. So that will be interesting to ask the reporter what the substantiating information is.

But, you know, what I think you're talking about Michael is the time line. People are chomping at the bit. Democrats in Congress are -- when you get a bombshell like this you want to see it right away. You want to see what you've talked about in terms of all of that other evidence right away.

And that gets to what Chris Murphy said last night. At almost midnight, he sent out a tweet saying, "Mueller shouldn't end his inquiry, but it's about time for him to show Congress his cards before it's too late for us to act."

You start to hear people not wanting to wait for Robert Mueller's full report when something this big might be percolating.

SMERCONISH: It's world without end, though, right? I mean, every few days we're talking about yet another bombshell. And every one of these, if they've not already been run down by Mueller and his team, need to be thoroughly investigated before he can bring this to any reasonable form of conclusion.

I think what's most attractive about the ongoing discussions of building a Trump Tower in Moscow is that it gives us a big-picture explanation as to what may have driven all of the president's conduct and all the contacts by so many seemingly connected with his campaign, and then administration, to want to be in cahoots with the Russians.

I mean, I think you can make an argument you wind back the clock and say he never expected to win this race. Nobody expected him to win the race, including himself, but he thought that when it ended he'd have a trophy to show for it. And the trophy would be some gleaming tower in Moscow, which was always his goal.

BERMAN: Again, if this BuzzFeed story is true, the crime that the president would have committed is after the election -- after the transition -- telling Michael Cohen to lie to Congress when he's president, which is fascinating. Michael, I've been reliving the last week after this BuzzFeed story came out and a couple of things have jumped out to me.

Number one, Rudy Giuliani's claim, seemingly out of nowhere, that the only crime the president could commit is somehow collusion with the Russians and hacking of the e-mail. Rudy Giuliani setting the bar so low. Did he know that the president would be implicated in other crimes as the week went on?

The other thing that jumped out to me is the Bill Barr testimony. You know, the former attorney general who will be, by all accounts, the next attorney general was asked by Lindsey Graham about suborning perjury indirectly.

And, Amy Klobuchar, a Democratic senator from Minnesota, had this fascinating exchange with him.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR (D-MN), MEMBER, SENATE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: In your memo, you talked about the Comey decision and you talk about obstruction of justice -- and you already went over that, which I appreciate.

You wrote on page one that a president persuading a person to commit perjury would be obstruction. Is that right?

BARR: Yes.

KLOBUCHAR: OK. And --

BARR: So, any -- well, you know, any person who persuades --

KLOBUCHAR: Any person.

BARR: -- another -- yes.

KLOBUCHAR: OK.

You also said that a president or any person convincing a witness to change testimony would be obstruction. Is that right?

BARR: Yes.

KLOBUCHAR: OK.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BRIGGS: Bill Barr is on the record here, Michael -- solidly, here. Again, if this story bears out he's got a real challenge ahead of him.

SMERCONISH: How ironic because I think it's that memo that got him the gig. But for him having pursued that academic exercise of writing that memo, I don't know that he would have been on the radar screen of the president to the extent that he was.

I mean, I doubt the president ever read the 20 pages. I waded through them. It's pretty heavy stuff even for attorneys.

But I can certainly understand someone giving the president an encapsulation that says hey, you're going to love this guy Barr because he doesn't believe in the Mueller probe.

And now, Amy Klobuchar correctly pursues what he wrote in that memo and we're applying it to what we just have learned from BuzzFeed. It may be the interpretation of the memo that is the worst thing for the President of the United States.

But, Bill Maher -- Bill Maher? Bill Barr is absolutely on record, as you've just stated. I mean, there's -- and it's not complicated stuff. There's no other interpretation here except that the president would have committed a crime -- and a serious crime -- if this report is accurate.

CAMEROTA: I think Bill Maher is on record also with his thoughts and his feelings about all this.

Michael Smerconish, great to get your take on all of this. Thank you very much.

BERMAN: And really, remember to watch --

SMERCONISH: Thank you.

BERMAN: -- "SMERCONISH" tomorrow morning for his interview with Sen. Rand Paul. You will get a sense of how Republicans are responding to this -- 9:00 a.m. right here on CNN.

CNN has learned that President Trump went to extraordinary lengths to conceal details of his meetings with Vladimir Putin. We now have a minute-by-minute time line on what happened on one of those key days -- the most key day, perhaps, of this administration. That time line is really surprising.

A CNN reality check, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:54:04] BERMAN: So, what happened in Hamburg -- you know, the site of two pivotal meetings between President Trump and Vladimir Putin that the president tried to conceal details of from his own administration and the world? What we know about what transpired there, very interesting. What we don't know could be even bigger.

John Avlon has our reality check -- sir.

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Hey, guys.

Look, when you're walking through a blizzard of lies it can be difficult to concentrate on specifics, but some days demand scrutiny. Take President Trump's trip to Germany for the G20, the first time he met Vladimir Putin in person.

Here's what we know. On July 7th, 2017, President Trump and Putin take part in their first scheduled meeting. Also present, Secretary of State Tillerson, his Russian counterpart, and the interpreters. Now, the meeting is supposed to last a half hour but it stretches to more than four times that.

Afterward, Tillerson puts out a bland statement calling their discussion about election interference, quote, "robust and lengthy."

[07:55:04] But the real drama takes place behind the scenes when President Trump personally confiscates his interpreter's notes. This is never done and for very good reason. Trump deliberately ensured that no American record exists of the first meeting between himself and a hostile foreign power who meddled in our election on his behalf.

Now, looking back, it seems the president had a lot on his mind because earlier that same day "The New York Times" called for comment on a then-secret, now-infamous meeting between Don, Jr. and the Russians during the campaign.

Meanwhile, back in Hamburg, the party goes on. Trump and Putin attend a dinner. And by protocol, world leaders break bread, make idle chitchat, and that's it.

But that's when the weirdness kicks in. President Trump is captured on video doing whatever this at Putin. The media shuffled out of the room so the dinner could begin.

Then, under the guise of saying hi to Melania, who is sitting next to Putin, Trump walks over to their side of the table and that becomes another hourlong discussion. This time, the only party to it is Putin's interpreter. And, Trump doesn't even tell his own staff about the meeting. The move is so bizarre that we only know about it because shocked world leaders let it leak.

Now, the vice president of the Carnegie Endowment put it this way. Quote, "Shortly after the New York Times reached out to the White House to ask about a secret meeting with the Russians, Trump himself sought a secret meeting with the Russians."

The next morning, President Trump is back on Air Force One and brimming with ideas. One of them is to call David Sanger from "The New York Times." Trump goes out of his way to defend Vladimir Putin on the call, saying that Putin told him Russia couldn't have hacked our election because if they had done it no one would ever know.

And in Sanger's words, Trump seemed impressed by the argument, dismissing the American Intelligence Community's assessment out of hand.

But that's not the only sketchy and desperate spin the president engaged in. Once Air Force One is wheels up, Trump turned his attention to his son and that Trump Tower meeting with the Russians. The president crafts a cover story, which is a fancy way of saying a lie, stating the meeting was just about Russian adoption. Now, some members of the O.G. Trump legal team apparently have a problem with this. The communications chief of the legal team quits a few weeks later, followed by the president's first lawyer.

And that's all we know about that pivotal trip to Hamburg, so far. But remember, at first, the official version of events contained none of this.

It's a portrait of a president whose first impulse is to try and hide the truth. But when you're president, you can't run and you can't hide. The truth will out.

And that's your reality check.

CAMEROTA: John, very helpful. Thank you.

AVLON: (INAUDIBLE).

BERMAN: All right. We have one of the reporters that broke the bombshell BuzzFeed story on President Trump, right now.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BERMAN: Good morning and welcome to your NEW DAY. It is Friday, January 18th, 8:00 in the east.

Breaking news this morning, potentially of the huge variety. A new report this morning from BuzzFeed News that President Trump personally instructed Michael Cohen to lie to Congress about building a Trump Tower in Moscow. That is according to two federal law enforcement officials.

If true, that is suborning perjury. It is a crime; it is impeachable.

Cohen is a convicted felon and an admitted liar, but BuzzFeed reports that Mueller has more evidence than just Cohen's word.

They write, "The special counsel's office learned about Trump's directive for Cohen to lie to Congress through interviews with multiple witnesses from the Trump Organization and internal company e- mails, text messages, and a cache of other documents. Cohen then acknowledged those instructions during his interviews with the office."

CAMEROTA: Cohen pleaded guilty in November to lying to Congress about the Russia investigation. He claimed the negotiations about the Moscow tower project ended in January of 2016 when, in fact, they ended in June of that year after Donald Trump was already the presumptive Republican nominee.

CNN has not independently confirmed this BuzzFeed report. And, Democratic lawmakers are already seizing on the report and some of the details, so let's hear those.

Joining us by phone now is one of the investigative reporters for BuzzFeed News who broke this story, Anthony Cormier. Anthony, thank you so much for being here. Your reporting has obviously captured much of the country this morning. It's on every network.

So, can you tell us, Anthony, the evidence -- I know that in the report you say that you have spoken -- you have two law enforcement sources who tell you that they have seen evidence -- texts, e-mails, a cache of other documents. Maybe transcripts with other witnesses in the Trump Organization that Donald Trump pressured Michael Cohen to lie. He suborned perjury.

Have you seen any of that other corroborating evidence?

ANTHONY CORMIER, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, BUZZFEED NEWS (via telephone): No, I've not seen it personally, but the folks that we've talked to -- the two officials that we've spoken to are fully, 100 percent read-in to that aspect of the special counsel's investigation.

BERMAN: Can you explain in greater detail the types of evidence that they say they have? What led them to ask Michael Cohen about this?

CORMIER: Sure. They have been working the --