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Reporting Indicates Michael Cohen Claims President Trump Instructed Him to Lie to Congress; Interview with Democratic Congressman David Cicilline of Rhode Island. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired January 18, 2019 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00] JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: What led them to ask Michael Cohen about this?

ANTHONY CORMIER, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, "BUZZFEED NEWS": Sure. They have been working the Trump, Moscow Tower portion of this investigation, our sources have, before Mueller. And so they had access to a number of different documents, 302 reports, which are interview reports. And that stuff was compiled as they began to look at who the players were speaking with, how those negotiations went, who all from the Trump Organization and outside the organization were involved in getting that tower set up. They began to compile this evidence before Michael Cohen decided to cooperate and to speak with the special counsel. It's hard to say if they presented this to him, or began asking questions based off it. Then he acknowledged in the interview, yes, indeed, I was directed by the president.

We don't know at this point, and our sources haven't told us what exactly -- how exactly that directive was handed down. Was it in person, on the telephone? We're not clear. But it is our understanding that this is rock solid information developed over the course of a long period of time, and Michael was used to confirm it.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Do your sources have a sense of why President Trump would want Michael Cohen to lie about this?

CORMIER: That's a really good question. We have been trying to get Mr. Cohen or his spokesperson on the phone for the last 72 hours, and they have declined to talk to us, saying that they are not answering questions because they don't want to interfere with the special counsel's inquiry. I don't want to speculate on any reasons why the president would tell him to move that date or come up with a different date than was actually true.

BERMAN: Has the White House or the president's private lawyers, have they responded or denied directly to the facts put out in the story?

CORMIER: Not on the record, no, sir. We gave them every opportunity last night. Shortly before I published, I was telling individuals, if you guys would like to deny it, we'll give you ample space to do so. And they would not do that on the record.

CAMEROTA: Anthony, obviously this is extremely serious. This is an impeachable offense. It's a federal crime. If what you say in your report really happened and Robert Mueller can prove it, we've heard from people on both sides of the aisle in Congress, this is an impeachable offense. Suborning perjury is one of the articles of impeachment.

And yet we must ask about your sources and methods because your cowriter, Jason Leopold, has a dubious past with this. He's gotten in trouble, as you well know, in 2002 and 2006. He was in trouble for perhaps claiming to have sources that he really didn't have. His stories didn't wash. Executive directors and editors have had to apologize after some of his big blockbuster stories. So how can you be certain today?

CORMIER: I am rock solid. My sourcing on this goes beyond the two that are on the record. It's 100 percent. I am the individual who confirmed and verified that it happened. I am telling you that our sourcing goes beyond the two that I was able to put on the record. We were able to gather information from individuals who know that this happened, this is a thing that happened.

BERMAN: And you have been on the Trump Tower Moscow story really longer than anyone else. You had a write-up months before Michael Cohen pleaded guilty to lying to Congress about it that basically laid out exactly what had happened. In this story overnight, not only do you report that the president instructed Michael Cohen to lie to Congress. You also have new details about all of these events that took place, including multiple discussions between the president and Michael Cohen about the Trump Tower Moscow deal, and also the involvement of Ivanka Trump and Donald Trump, Jr. explain.

CORMIER: Well, our sources who have been fully read into this investigation, tell us that there are at least 10 face-to-face meetings between the president and his personal attorney for granular updates about the state of the project. Our sources are telling us that Mr. President not only knew Mr. Cohen was attempting to set up a meeting overseas with the Russian president, but that he was actively encouraging it, which also tells us that both Ivanka Trump and Donald Trump, Jr., were, again, read in to details of the project and they were encouraging Mr. Cohen to move it forward.

I think it's instructive to look at our initial Trump Tower Moscow story, which I believe he broke in May. No one was able to match it. It took six months for the special counsel to affirm it.

[08:05:00] So we're operating with a base of knowledge here that is sound. I can't say when the special counsel, whether Congress, whether other investigators will match. But this is -- the sourcing here is rock solid. And we have been able to verify this in other ways.

CAMEROTA: In terms of Ivanka and Don, Jr., is it your reporting that they did anything wrong beyond having --

CORMIER: Nope. Not at all. Not in any way. We're not -- all we reported yesterday was that our sources are saying that Donald Trump, Jr.'s characterization to Congress that he had only peripheral knowledge of this plan, they are saying that characterization is a little off. They are not accusing him of lying. They are not saying that these individuals had contacts with Russia. They are not alleging that this had anything to do with collusion. They are just giving us a broader view of what happened during the campaign.

BERMAN: So Anthony, when Michael Cohen pleaded guilty to lying to Congress and we saw those legal documents for the first time, were there any clues there, as you read the documents now knowing what you know, your reporting that the president instructed Michael Cohen to lie, that the special counsel was indicating they knew that or were pursuing that?

CORMIER: There's been a little bit of chatter that the story is suspect because Michael Cohen didn't say this in his speech. He didn't say anything about it. That's not true. It's our understanding that the special counsel didn't require Michael Cohen to lay out all of the relevant details that he told him. But there is a bit of a bread crumb, or several bread crumbs in that memo. And one of which is, one of the four or five points that Michael Cohen was credible and helpful according to special counsel was when he told them about the drafting of the statement to Congress in which he lied. That's a clue. That suggests to us that there is a little bit of string to pull that the special counsel perhaps has not revealed yet.

CAMEROTA: OK, Anthony Cormier, thank you very much for sharing all of your reporting that's getting so much attention in the "BuzzFeed News" story with us this morning in helping us understand how you have tried to piece it together. We really appreciate it.

CORMIER: Sure, thanks so much.

CAMEROTA: Let's bring in David Axelrod, CNN senior political commentator and former senior consultant to President Obama, S.E. Cupp, host of CNN's "S.E. Cupp Unfiltered," and Asha Rangappa, a former FBI special agent. Asha, I want to start with you for your investigative know hos. So I thought that was really helpful. It was revealing to know that what Anthony said, the reporter from "BuzzFeed," is that he has complete confidence, 100 percent, in his sources. He has more than just the two sources who are on the record, the unnamed law enforcement sources. He has other sources that have also corroborated this. However, he has not seen the other corroborating evidence of the texts, e-mails, documents. What does it do to your investigative mind?

ASHA RANGAPPA, CNN LEGAL AND NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: What I picked up on when he was talking was that he mentioned that the law enforcement officials that he's spoken with were people who had been looking into the Trump Tower Moscow deal before Mueller apparently came on the scene, which means there is something about that deal itself which has raised some issues for investigators.

And I think it goes to when Michael Cohen pleaded guilty, in his pleading document it said he lied to Congress because he was trying to limit the scope of the Russia investigation. So I think this is about, why is this being concealed? The lying itself, the suborning perjury is explosive. But it's also what is underlying it that the president did not want to be discovered. BERMAN: So David, it strikes me either "BuzzFeed News" is colossally

wrong or the president is in a new type of colossally big trouble this morning.

DAVID AXELROD, CNN HOST, "THE AXE FILES": There's no question about it. And it sets up an extraordinary event on February 7th if Michael Cohen proceeds to testify before Congress. It reminds me of 1973 when a fellow named Alexander Butterfield revealed to the Watergate hearings that President Nixon had been taping his conversations, and that opened the door to the end of the Nixon administration.

If this turns out to be true, and the reporter seemed very confident of it, but if this turns out to be true and Michael Cohen testifies to it in greater detail before Congress, then Congress has a real question in terms of how to proceed, because it's very hard to see how they don't proceed on an impeachment if the president suborned perjury here for testimony before Congress. I don't see how they avoid it. So this could be a watershed event in this whole drama.

[08:10:18] CAMEROTA: S.E., your thoughts?

S.E. CUPP, CNN HOST, S.E. CUPP UNFILTERED: Couple things. One, good on you for pushing on the Jason Leopold connection, because that will be a bit of a specter hanging over this report.

CAMEROTA: For sure.

CUPP: And it's really important that you did that with Anthony. As certain as he is about his reporting and his sources, I'm a little concerned, I think we should be a little concerned that law enforcement officials are talking to "BuzzFeed" about the Mueller investigation and what they know.

Putting that aside, of course this is bombshell if true, and it begs a lot more questions. Were the attorneys who prepped Michael Cohen part of White House counsel? Did they know he was about to lie? That, of course, widens the fallout, the collateral damage of this.

Just as a layperson viewer, if the negotiation had borne fruit, what would have happened then? Would a tower have gone up in Russia in the middle of night and Trump called it Frump Tower until he was out of office? This was all going to come out eventually. I don't know how long Trump and his family and his organization were planning on hiding all of this, or if it was just going to go away. We need to learn more.

My final thought is to the Democrats in Congress doing the theorem tweets -- if true, then. Let's wait. Let's wait and see if it's true, because that's a double-edged sword. If it is true, certainly this whets the appetites of Democrats and voters, puts Trump in a corner. If not true or if less true, this just works in Trump's advantage.

BERMAN: Sure. I will say Congress, the House members, they have a right to look at it because it was Cohen's testimony to them that is in question. CUPP: He lied to them.

BERMAN: If he lied, he lied to them. So this is absolutely within their purview and they have a decision to make.

CUPP: Of course.

BERMAN: So it's not mere wild speculation about how to handle it.

CUPP: No, absolutely. But we'll find out if it's true when the results of the Mueller investigation come out.

BERMAN: There are a few things that have happened, again, overnight that set my alarm bells off. Number one, we asked Anthony about this, the White House and the president's legal team, they didn't deny it directly. There is no direct denial yet. You have Rudy Giuliani attacking Michael Cohen's credibility, which is certainly ripe for attacking, but no denial that this happened.

You do raise one more question. Let me just read this paragraph, because we haven't talked about this this morning, it's another explosive paragraph in the story. Attorneys close to the administration helped Cohen prepare his testimony and draft his statement to the Senate panel, sources say. The sources did not say who the attorneys were or whether they were part of the White House counsel staff and did not present evidence the lawyers knew the statements would be false. But again, lawyers connected to the president were said to be involved here, Asha.

RANGAPPA: I think S.E. totally nailed it. This is one of those things where it becomes an expanding circle. Investigations work like fractals. You start with one, and then when you start getting information it starts to spin off into others. And then, of course, the more that people get investigated, the more they are willing to talk and you gather more evidence.

I do think that when Michael Cohen testifies in front of Congress, this could be a direct question that's asked of him.

CAMEROTA: I hope so.

BERMAN: Oh, my God.

RANGAPPA: Under oath. I know that his credibility is shot as a convicted felon. On the other hand, he probably doesn't want to add another felony to his charge. So I do think that his answer directly in an open chamber will matter.

CUPP: And it might go a long way that Robert Mueller himself has come out to say Michael Cohen has been cooperative and he's offered corroborating information that verifies some of the other things we are working on. That might go some distance in polishing up his credibility for this body, at least.

CAMEROTA: Hey, David.

AXELROD: They also --

CAMEROTA: Yes, go ahead.

AXELROD: The fact that the story references multiple witnesses and documentation is really, really meaningful. Yes, he said, he said thing with Michael Cohen may raise a lot of questions. But clearly Mueller did not act on the basis of Michael Cohen's word alone. And so there is a lot for Congress to look at here in terms of corroborating evidence.

CAMEROTA: I would feel better if Anthony, the reporter, had seen the corroborating evidence.

AXELROD: That's true.

CAMEROTA: I would feel better if the two law enforcement sources up whom they relied presented some of the evidence. That would, I think, make us more confident that it is as rock solid as he's saying. But either way, David, this requires a real Zen moment for Congress, because as you get things that are impeachable that sound like evidence of impeachable offenses, how are they supposed to sit on their hands and wait for God knows how long for Mueller to present evidence?

[08:15:13] DAVID AXELROD, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: You know, I have been one who has counseled caution about using the word impeachment. I think impeachment is a very serious thing. And if it starts to be regarded as a casual political tool, that is another hammer blow to our democracy.

On the other hand, suborning perjury -- the president of the United States suborning perjury with a witness to Congress is also a hammer blow to our democracy. And I do think if all of this proves out -- and we should stress, if all of it proves out and we don't know yet -- I think they then have almost an obligation to pursue this, because this is a really, really serious offense.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Hang on one second. Do you know who agrees with you? The person who could be the next attorney general of the United States, I think, Bill Barr. In his testimony, he was directly asked. Can we play Lindsey Graham quickly? And I want S.E. to put a button on that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: So, if there was some reason to believe that the president tried to coach somebody not to testify or testify falsely, that could be obstruction of justice?

WILLIAM BARR, ATTORNEY GENERAL NOMINEE: Yes, under that -- yes under an obstruction statute, yes.

GRAHAM: If there is evidence that the president tried to conceal evidence that would be obstruction of justice, potentially, right?

BARR: Right. (END VIDEO CLIP)

S.E. CUPP, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, there William Barr and Lindsey Graham put a bear claw on themselves, a bear trap. Not only will Democrats rightly pursue impeachment if it turns out that Trump coerced Michael Cohen to lie, but Republicans, I think you will start to see some say this is a bridge too far.

And believe me, to get impeachment you need Republicans to say, yes, this is the course of action we should be taking.

BERMAN: S.E., Asha, David, thanks so much for being with us, helping us piece through this fascinating story.

CAMEROTA: Be sure to watch "S.E. CUPP: UNFILTERED" tomorrow at 6:00 p.m. Eastern, followed by "THE AXE FILES" at 7:00 p.m. This week's guest is former Secretary of State John Kerry.

BERMAN: All right. Suborning perjury, as we have said, is a crime. Several Democratic lawmakers have demanded an investigation. Will this lead to new calls for impeachment? We're going to speak to a Democratic member of Congress who have been speaking out, next.

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[08:21:02] BERMAN: We are following breaking news. The bombshell report from "BuzzFeed News", they say President Trump personally instructed Michael Cohen to lie to Congress about a proposed Moscow Tower project.

Now, suborning perjury, telling someone to lie is a crime. It is also in the past been impeachable. CNN has not independently confirmed this reporting, but it's out there.

Joining us now Democratic Congressman David Cicilline. He's a member of the House Judiciary Committee, whose job just got a heck of a lot more interesting.

Congressman, first, your general reaction to the story overnight?

REP. DAVID CICILLINE (D-RI), HOUSE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: Well, this is obviously a very serious report. If true, this is I think the most serious threat to the Trump presidency that we've seen so far, and that's saying something because we have seen a lot. This is obstruction of justice.

If the facts are true, this is suborning perjury. I think there's no question this is an impeachable offense. And it's again just one more data point about what was the reason that they were trying to hard to keep this Russia meeting and this Russia relationship so secret.

But this is very serious. What I think is really important about the reporting is not only the sworn testimony of Michael Cohen but documentary evidence to support it. If that's true, it's a grave threat to the Trump presidency. BERMAN: You said very grave and inside that answer, I did hear the I-

word impeachable, and let me follow on that because in August, when President Trump was all but named as an unindicted conspirator, when the Southern District essentially said the president had essentially committed a crime directing Michael Cohen to make hush money payments to Stormy Daniels, you said the threshold had not been met. Last month you said we don know yet if any of this is impeachable.

Is this different?

CICILLINE: Yes, I think this is different. I'm a member of the Judiciary Committee, as you said. Of course I think it is always best that we have all of the information and all of the evidence to make the determinations, because you sort of have one opportunity to move forward in that kind of proceeding. It's my preference that we await the final report of Mr. Mueller. It becomes difficult when faced with evidence such as this. The Judiciary Committee has a responsibility to begin hearing to understand what happened, and in fact, to determine whether or not the president of the United States committed a crime by suborning perjury.

I think that's different. This is the first direct evidence of a crime -- or of an important crime. I know we heard testimony about the Stormy Daniels payments that Republicans tried to diminish as campaign violations despite the fact that they are felonies. We saw evidence of obstruction of justice in the firing of Director Comey. They have also tried to offer explanations for that.

There is no explanation for suborning perjury. There is no innocent explanation for telling a witness to lie to the Congress of the United States. So, I think this is different.

Again, I think we will do our job in terms of conducting oversight hearings, but this is clearly the most serious threat this president has faced.

BERMAN: OK. Are you calling on your chair, to Chairman Nadler, to open an investigation, hearings on this now before perhaps the Mueller report comes out?

CICILLINE: Well, I think we have to wait for the reports to be confirmed before we can call on that. I can tell you if the reports are confirmed and the evidence presented that the president of the United States directed Mr. Cohen to lie to Congress, I won't have to call on Mr. Nadler to do it.

BERMAN: Well, what do you say? It's interesting because Jerry Nadler, Congressman Nadler has been clear. He's called things impeachable offenses. For instance, in the Stormy Daniels situation, he said that's an impeachable offense but said it doesn't mean I think we should go forward with impeachment.

Again, I ask you -- suborning perjury is clearly an impeachable offense and I say it's clearly an impeachable offense because it has been used in impeachment before in the articles against Richard Nixon and Bill Clinton. [08:25:07] But in this case, do you think in this case, do you think

it should call for that process?

CICILLINE: Well, we don't have to wonder if it is an impeachable offense. As you said, it's been used before. The incoming, likely attorney general acknowledged that as well.

Again, I think the -- I don't want to speak for Mr. Nadler, but I think sentiment on the committee is we want to be in a position to have all of the facts, to have all information, because you have one opportunity to move forward on something so serious. I think it is important that we receive the report. On the other hand, this is a very, very serious development.

BERMAN: OK. We just talked to the "BuzzFeed" reporter behind it. He told us a lot of interesting things. But one of the things he said is he had not seen himself all that corroborating evidence which is cited in the story. The law enforcement officials that he notes -- they are the ones that told him.

Have you, as a member of one of the key committees that has investigated different aspects of this, have you seen any evidence over the last 18 months to corroborate any of this?

CICILLINE: Well, I mean, we have all seen the conduct of the president and the explanations that were given about the Trump Tower meeting that was originally dictated from Air Force One that it was about adoption. It wasn't. We heard the president make statements he had no business dealings with the Russians.

So, we have seen a number of things, data points --

BERMAN: But the suborning perjury --

(CROSSTALK)

CICILLINE: Directing Michael Cohen.

BERMAN: Yes, have you seen evidence yourself that he directed Michael Cohen to lie?

CICILLINE: I have not. I have not seen evidence that's referenced in that article. Obviously, the Judiciary Committee now in the majority Democratic hands has the ability to bring witnesses and subpoena records to confirm that and other things. But I have not seen those documents and the corroboration, which is why I say, we have to be sure that these allegations are true. If true, this is the most serious threat the president faced in my view.

BERMAN: It is interesting. Until this point, Nancy Pelosi, the speaker of the house has been putting on the brakes to slow roll the idea of impeachment here. Do you think that it speeds up as of now?

CICILLINE: Well, I think people have to look at it in a serious way. The notion that the president would direct someone to lie and not tell the truth is not inconsistent with the behavior of the president who has had a difficult relationship with the truth. So, I think no one read the story and thought, oh, this is impossible. I think people read that story and thought, it's consistent with everything that we have seen and learned about this investigation and more importantly about the conduct of this president.

BERMAN: All right. Congressman David Cicilline from Rhode Island, thanks so much for being with us.

CICILLINE: Thanks for having me.

CAMEROTA: The government shutdown continues to hurt real people. A TSA screener is here next to explain how the impasse is affecting millions of passengers.

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