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800,000 Federal Workers Prepare To Miss Second Paycheck Friday; CNN Reality Check: Emoluments And The Trump Administration; Washington Post Journalist Jason Rezaian On His Time As A Prisoner In Iran; Rudy Giuliani Tries To Clean Up Comments On Trump Tower Moscow. Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired January 22, 2019 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[07:31:33] ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Eight hundred thousand federal workers are facing the possibility of missing a second paycheck this coming Friday. Today is day 32 of the government shutdown with no end in sight.

Joining us now is Francis Nichols, III. He's a pretrial services officer who has been working without pay. He is also the vice president of the American Federation of Government Employees Local 1456 Union. Francis, thanks so much for being here with us.

So, tell us what your biggest fear is this morning.

FRANCIS NICHOLS, III, PRETRIAL SERVICES OFFICER WORKING WITHOUT PAY, VICE PRESIDENT, AMERICAN FEDERAL OF GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES LOCAL 1456: Thank you for having me.

My biggest fear is that the members that I represent and I, myself, just don't have no clue the uncertainty of when this shutdown is going to end -- when we'll be able to return to work with pay and to support our families and go on and become whole again.

CAMEROTA: You have a 9-year-old. So, how is this affecting your family?

NICHOLS: Co-parenting with a 9-year-old, it's very difficult for -- my son is in fourth grade and his fourth-grade class talked about this. And for him to come home and ask are we poor now, I don't need my extra milk at lunch -- a 55 cent milk.

I was like son, it's going to be OK. Don't worry about it. I will take care of it.

But I hope I didn't lie to my son and tell him that everything is going to be OK because I'm really uncertain. But, you know, you have to keep that face on to make sure that you don't put him in panic.

CAMEROTA: Well, explain to us how much on the edge you are today because I had read here in the notes that you gave to our producers that you feel that you can stretch your money until Wednesday or Thursday, but that's tomorrow, OK? So, what happens if you don't get a paycheck on Friday?

NICHOLS: So, if I don't get my paycheck on Friday, I will be resorting to asking my mother, my father, friends, and family to assist me into getting to work because I'm working without pay right now, so -- and working in the Washington, D.C. area -- for gas and parking and just clothing -- for dry cleaning. It becomes a very hassle to getting to work and not having a paycheck.

CAMEROTA: Let's talk about that. You have to drive every day to work many miles. You pay $25 in parking a day. So, you've already adjusted your life. You're basically staying on a friend's sofa because you can't afford to make the drive.

NICHOLS: That is correct. I live in Baltimore but I'm staying down at actually, my cousin's house on a sofa so I won't have to make that long commute and burning gas every single day because that's some money that I can save and put some other places.

CAMEROTA: Because you're -- are you have to now currently make the choice between gas and food?

NICHOLAS: Yes, I make the choice every day, should I fill my tank up? Well, actually I haven't had a full tank of gas since probably the shutdown. I've been like putting in only what I need to make sure that I can have food and give my son his 55-cent milk every day -- his extra milk that he likes. Make sure that he has that and other things -- medicines and such things.

CAMEROTA: And you're a pretrial services officer, meaning that you're in a courtroom dealing with defendants every day. That's why you have a high dry-cleaning bill. You need to sort of present in a certain way.

[07:35:00] And how is this impacting the role that you play in the courtroom? How is this affecting you and your fellow coworkers of what you do every day?

NICHOLS: I mean, definitely, the moral is starting to drop. We have a great local president, President Tyler, and he tells us every day to just stay strong and to motivate each other, to check on each other because we never know what someone else is going through.

But having all of those extra bills as far as dry cleaning and things, it does come up. So, you actually have to pick and choose what am I going to put in the dry cleaner or what can I -- maybe read the tag a little bit more to see how you can finesse and clean this garment without taking it to the dry cleaners. Some things have ruined already and so, I'm not going to take that gamble too much more.

CAMEROTA: Understood.

So, what do you want to say this morning to President Trump and to lawmakers?

NICHOLS: To President Trump and lawmakers, I am asking that you do not hold the federal government paychecks hostage. We -- this is not our fight. We did not ask for this. This is something that I didn't ask for.

One of my coworkers told me about -- I did not take -- I must have missed furlough math in many years of getting my education. I never learned furlough math. And this, right here -- if you all have a course on furlough math they should have taught us this first because picking and choosing where I'm going to -- what bills I'm going to pay is not good at all.

Eighty hours a week with a zero paycheck is unheard of. We work -- and to -- we make sure that we uphold our mission statement for our agencies and we do a good job as federal government workers. And we would like to get paid for that good job that we do.

CAMEROTA: I think furloughed math just involves subtraction and it ends with zero, sadly, for all of you guys.

So, Francis Nicholas, thank you very much. We really appreciate hearing about your struggle, your family's struggle. And obviously, we will check back with you before Friday.

NICHOLS: Thank you. You have a great day.

CAMEROTA: You, too -- John.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: He makes such a good point. Furlough math only includes subtraction in this case.

CAMEROTA: For sure.

BERMAN: Emoluments. President Trump's nominee for attorney general claims not to know what they are, sort of, but he better study up because the president is accused of accepting a bunch of them. Why you should care, ahead in our reality check.

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[07:41:07] CAMEROTA: It's a fancy word for a simple concept -- emoluments. What are they? And, President Trump -- is he violating the law that surrounds emoluments?

CNN senior political analyst John Avlon joins us with our reality check. Finally, somebody will explain emoluments.

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: We're going to demystify everything. Ready, Ali?

CAMEROTA: Yes.

AVLON: Emoluments -- it's hard to say and even harder to explain but basically, emolument is O.G. constitutional language for potentially corrupting compensation or perk.

The founding fathers thought it was important enough to embed it in Article 1, Section 9 of the Constitution, stating that no officeholder in America can accept an emolument or presents or titles or offices from any foreign government. Now, if that's still got you scratching your head and saying WTF, you're not alone. Just listen to this guy.

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WILLIAM BARR, NOMINEE, ATTORNEY GENERAL OF THE UNITED STATES: I don't -- well, I think there's a dispute as to what the emoluments clause relates to. I can't even tell you what it says, at this point.

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AVLON: OK, that's William Barr, the once and probably, future attorney general of the United States.

And that's kind of big deal because there are currently three lawsuits accusing President Trump of accepting emoluments. The highest profile of these cases centers on his historic D.C. post office-turned high- priced hotel and its literal revolving door of foreign clientele.

So, for example, the Saudi-backed lobbying firm that reserved 500 nights of rooms around the inauguration to the tune of a cool quarter- million. And there are more examples of elected officials and lobbyists, and companies with business before the administration doing the same.

Now, this all stems from Trump's unprecedented decision not to fully divest himself of his business deals past, present or future. Trump Tower Moscow comes to mind.

So, in search of some clarity let's go way back to the founding fathers. They were trying to stop government officials from taking bribes or even innocent gifts that looked fishy and might undermine our independence and integrity.

So, when Andrew Jackson got a gold medallion from South America's Simon Bolivar, Congress told him to give it back. And, when Abraham Lincoln received a sword and two elephant tusks from the King of Siam, Congress told him to send it to the Interior Department.

More recently, three Republican lawmakers tried to block President Obama from accepting the Nobel Peace Prize, calling it an emolument despite the fact that Obama was donating the prize money to charity.

Now the money flowing into Trump properties from foreign governments is worth a lot more than a gold medallion or a pair of elephant tusks. And the barks from government watchdogs are only getting louder.

The inspector general of the GSA who leases the building to Trump just slammed the decision to renew the lease after the election. The I.G. says potential conflicts with the Constitution should have carried far more weight, as well as the actual lease itself, which specifically says elected officials need not apply.

Now, Trump's lawyers say that's moot because he signed the lease before he got elected and business is not bribery. Well, that's for the court to decide. But the lawsuit is presently on hold because of the government shutdown. That's right, Trump's shutdown has frozen Trump's lawsuit.

But get this. It turns out the clock tower in Trump's hotel is technically a national park. It's supposed to be closed like the rest of them, but it's not.

Three park rangers are still on the job while some 800,000 other non- essential federal employees are about to go without their second paycheck. Somehow, the Trump administration found the money to pay these guys and now there are calls for an investigation.

So, say it loud -- emoluments. It's a word both you and A.G. nominee Bill Barr will be hearing a lot more of in the coming months.

And that's your reality check.

BERMAN: Say it loud, say it proud -- emoluments.

AVLON: That's right.

BERMAN: Another thing I will note is elephant tusks don't charge rent -- don't charge rent to foreign countries, which is what the hotel down there does.

AVLON: Among the many differences between hotels and elephant tusks, but I do like your suggestion for a new James Brown deep track.

BERMAN: That's right. Stay proud -- emoluments. All right.

CAMEROTA: Thank you, John.

[07:45:00] BERMAN: So, he spent 544 days in solitary confinement in Iran for a crime he did not commit. Now, Jason Rezaian is sharing extraordinary details of his survival story, next.

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BERMAN: All right, 544 days -- that's how long "Washington Post" journalist Jason Rezaian spent in an Iranian prison for a crime he didn't commit. Now, three years after his release, Rezaian is opening up about his life in captivity.

His new memoir "Prisoner" hit the bookshelves today. Jason Rezaian, who is also a CNN global affairs analyst, joins me now. Jason, thank you so much for being with us. Congratulations on the book.

JASON REZAIAN, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST, GLOBAL OPINIONS WRITER, THE WASHINGTON POST, HELD CAPTIVE FOR 544 DAYS IN IRANIAN PRISON, AUTHOR, "PRISONER": Yes.

BERMAN: You know, we knew about what you went through but so much more detail and so many new things here.

So, I want to start, if you can, at the very beginning here -- and that's where you started the book -- when you were first arrested -- you and your wife. You were headed out the door and then suddenly, you're face-to-face with a man holding a gun and a warrant. And you think this can't be that big of a deal, but it is.

[07:50:00] REZAIAN: Exactly. We were very quickly hauled off to Evin Prison, which is one of the most notorious prisons in the world, blindfolded, taken into an interrogation room, separated. And the next thing you know, I'm being hurled with all sorts of accusations of many crimes that I've supposedly committed against the Iranian government, spying for the U.S.

And their main evidence was a Kickstarter project I had tried to implement and failed in several years before.

BERMAN: Since you brought that up, the Kickstarter project was about avocados.

REZAIAN: Yes. I mean, I took a crack at a tongue-in-cheek sort of plan to bring avocados to Iran.

BERMAN: Because there's no guacamole there.

REZAIAN: There's no guacamole -- I'm a big fan -- and why aren't there avocados in this country where you can grow almost anything? And the next thing you know, I'm answering questions about this to these interrogators who think it's some subversive plot to overthrow the regime.

BERMAN: Because you wanted guacamole, they think you must be a spy.

REZAIAN: Apparently.

BERMAN: One of the things you write in the book is that the interrogators say to you, "The odds are you will spend the rest of your life as our guest. You will never get out of here. So, tell us everything."

You say, "There's nothing to tell. I'm just a journalist. You've made a mistake. This is all wrong. I'm just a journalist."

They reply, "Just a journalist has no value to me."

REZAIAN: That -- you know, which should have been the first indication to me that I was being held for larger purposes beyond my work. But it took many months to figure out that I was being kept as leverage in these ongoing interactions between the U.S. and Iran for some later concessions.

I couldn't see that while I was in prison, but that became clearer with the growing chorus around my detainment and ultimately, over my release.

BERMAN: One of the things they kept on saying to you -- and this, for anyone in solitary -- this for anyone cut off from the world has got to be to me, at least, the most demoralizing. They kept telling you no one knew about you or no one cared about you. REZAIAN: Yes. It was probably about two months into it that I first realized, wow, that's not true. I'm hearing my name from other guards in the prison. They're talking about what's being said about me on the state television.

And then, as time went on and I was able to have some intermittent visits with my wife and my mother, they were able to tell me about the many things that were going on in Washington, in New York, and around the world with friends in media, friends in -- at "The Washington Post" -- my colleagues there never letting my name go silent.

Our mutual friend, Anthony Bourdain, who became really my most staunch advocate. And my big brother --

BERMAN: Yes.

REZAIAN: -- who never gave up.

BERMAN: And we talked to him so many times --

REZAIAN: Yes.

BERMAN: -- while you were in captivity. He wasn't going to let the world forget or this country forget that you were there.

Early on in your book, again, you note that both you and your wife were taken by the guards. And there's a moment where she's brought into the room. This is the first night or the first moment --

REZAIAN: Yes.

BERMAN: -- you're there. And if I read it correctly, she asked you what's going on here? They tell me you're a spy. Are you a spy?

REZAIAN: You know, I think she was trying to kind of tip me off to what they were saying to her in the interrogation rooms at that point.

We had no secrets between us in our life and we still don't. But when you're thrust into that sort of moment of so much confusion -- your life has been turned upside down -- you don't know what to believe.

BERMAN: What was the low moment?

REZAIAN: I think that there were several lows. If you look at solitary confinement -- I spent 49 nights. That's seven weeks in a -- in a tiny little cell that the lights were on 24 hours a day.

Nowhere to run, nowhere to hide. Just a lot of walls around you. That's a low in my life.

But as the time went on and the -- and the situation was prolonged and seemed interminable, after the nuclear deal was struck in July of 2015 and I was still in prison, I thought to myself I may never get out of here. Little did I know at the point, secret negotiations for the release of me and other Americans had been going on for many months.

BERMAN: What do you learn about yourself?

REZAIAN: I learned that you can get through a lot. You can survive but you have to have the right disposition and you have to put yourself in a state of mind where you're working on your own behalf. Don't put up locks for yourself. Don't make new challenges.

So, every single day that I spent in that prison I looked for something to laugh at and I hope that comes through on the book.

BERMAN: What did you laugh at?

REZAIAN: I laughed at my interrogators, I laughed at my guards.

I had a cellmate for a while. We didn't share a common language. We made a lot of verbal miscues with one another and you just have to laugh about them.

BERMAN: When you finally were released one of the things you did was hug one of your interrogators.

[07:55:02] REZAIAN: You know, I write in the book that whether you like it or not, with so much prolonged interaction with a single individual, you form a human relationship. And, you know, I'm never going to apologize for that.

Did I like this guy? No. Did he wrong me and my family and probably many other people after me? Undoubtedly.

Would I like to punch this guy in the nose? More than anything. But at the end of the day, we went through this crazy experience together and it seemed like the appropriate thing to do.

BERMAN: I mean, it's not like you're texting him at this point.

REZAIAN: No.

BERMAN: Do you have any contact?

REZAIAN: I get harassed intermittently by the Iranian regime on social media. They send e-mails to my "Washington Post" account. I assume that some of them were involved in my arrest but, you know, I choose not to respond.

BERMAN: One of the things -- this is an offbeat question. One of the things is occasionally, Democrats are saying the president's holding people hostage with the shutdown. You see the word hostage tossed around in common conservation right now.

REZAIAN: Right.

BERMAN: And it strikes me -- I understand what people are getting at at different times, but you were a hostage for 544 days.

REZAIAN: Yes, don't use that term, politicians -- please. I was a hostage. I know other former hostages. It's a -- it's not something to be taken lightly and respect the term. BERMAN: Well, Jason Rezaian, the book is "Prisoner." It's a terrific read. Thank you so much for writing it. Thank you so much for being part of the CNN family. We're so lucky that you're here with us.

REZAIAN: I appreciate you. Thank you very much.

BERMAN: Thanks so much, Jason.

All right, we are following a lot of news this morning. Can there be any progress to the longest shutdown in U.S. history? NEW DAY continues right now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's very important that we're making this offer and saying come on, now -- let's negotiate a solution.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Democrats have made clear they are opposed. The hope from McConnell's side is this at least gets Democrats to the table.

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I), VERMONT: Let's reopen the government. Mitch, do your job.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I blame the entire leadership. They have to take responsibility.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Giuliani just throws so much B.S. out there nobody knows what to believe.

REP. GERRY CONNOLLY (D), VIRGINIA: He sounds like a crazy old uncle, admitting things the White House have steadfastly, absolutely denied.

DONALD TRUMP, JR., SON OF PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: Ultimately, it was Michael Cohen trying to get a deal done. I don't think anyone took it all that seriously.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY with Alisyn Camerota and John Berman.

CAMEROTA: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to your NEW DAY. It is Tuesday, January 22nd, 8:00 in the east.

Today, the Senate is expected to take up President Trump's proposal to end the longest government shutdown in U.S. history which is now in day 32. But, the proposal is called a non-starter by Democrats and it is doubtful it will get the 60 votes it needs to advance because Republicans have snuck in all sorts of other conditions the Democrats do not want.

And, as lawmakers remain at an impasse, the impact of this shutdown continues to be felt by real people across the country.

BERMAN: Also, this morning, a new and, frankly, bizarre interview from President Trump's lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, to "The New Yorker." It appears the mayor is now denying the president had discussions about building a Trump Tower in Moscow all the way through the election. This is after telling several news outlets, including CNN, that he did have those discussions.

Now, this interview was filled with hedges and reversals, and internal contradictions, so it's hard to know exactly what the former mayor is saying.

CAMEROTA: Joining us now is Chris Cillizza, CNN Politics reporter and editor-at-large. And, A.B. Stoddard, associate editor and columnist at RealClear Politics.

And in a moment, we're told, Jeffrey Toobin will also be joining us. He's a former federal prosecutor -- but he comes when he's ready, OK?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Sadly.

CAMEROTA: He just shows up and breezes in whenever he's ready. And apparently, you're ready.

TOOBIN: I am ready.

CAMEROTA: Hi, hello.

TOOBIN: Nice to see you.

CAMEROTA: Rudy Giuliani has been all over the map. I mean, he doesn't -- in the space of one -- we have so, I think, effectively illustrated earlier this morning -- we have -- in the space of one interview, he will say he has seen tapes, he hasn't seen tapes.

He will say the president did know about the Moscow Tower and was negotiating about it up until the election. He will say no, he didn't. That was not true.

Rudy Giuliani is doing -- what is his purpose at this point?

TOOBIN: Well, I think it is a little mysterious. I mean, you know, I think silence might be golden for him at this point.

But the main point about what's different now is that Donald Trump has submitted sworn answers, including on this subject, about his relationship with Russia before the election. And I have to believe that his lawyers beat him up into telling the truth that the negotiations were going on throughout 2016. And that means Trump lied throughout the whole campaign about his relationship with Russia.

So, Giuliani is now dealing with the problem of acknowledging that the president lied throughout the campaign without acknowledging that, which is why he keeps getting tied up in knots trying to square those things that just don't -- that don't match.

BERMAN: A.B., you see a little bit of the same thing here. You say that the president's real lawyers in this case --