Return to Transcripts main page

New Day

Dueling Bills to End Shutdown to Be Voted Upon Today; Sources Say Trump Keeping Giuliani on as Lawyer; Interview: Tom O'Connor, President of the FBI Agents Association. Aired 7-7:30a ET

Aired January 23, 2019 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's kind of the worst time of year for the government to be shut down.

[07:00:05] JIM ACOSTA, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: The White House says they're moving forward with plans for a State of the Union up on Capitol Hill.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nancy Pelosi does not dictate to the president when he will or will not have a conversation with the American people.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY with Alisyn Camerota and John Berman.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to your NEW DAY. It is now day 33 of the government shutdown. Here is the latest.

Tomorrow, the Senate will take up two votes on dueling proposals, but neither plan is likely to pass. The first is a Republican proposal. It includes nearly $6 billion for President Trump's border wall, with some temporary protections for DACA recipients.

The second proposal is the House-passed legislation to reopen the government without providing new funds for the wall, but with some new spending for border security. If both plans fail, as expected, 800,000 federal workers will miss another paycheck come Friday.

The FBI Agents Association is now warning that the shutdown has become a national security issue. And, according to "The Washington Post," hundreds of IRS employees are also out of work, which could mean that your tax refunds will be delayed.

BERMAN: We have some new developments this morning in the off-again, off-again State of the Union address, which was supposed to be next Tuesday. The White House claims it's moving forward with plans: two separate speeches. One if the president is allowed to do it in the House after all, one if it is elsewhere. A rally has been discussed. So, too, has a speech at the Southern border.

And this morning, the president's lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, is calling himself a master of the facts. Amid reports that the president is miffed at Giuliani's bizarre and repeated contradictions over the past few days explaining Mr. Trump's plans to build a Trump Tower in Moscow.

Nevertheless, CNN is told that Giuliani's job is not in jeopardy.

Here to discuss, David Gregory, CNN political analyst; Seung Min Kim, White House reporter for "The Washington Post'; and Jeffrey Toobin, CNN chief legal analyst.

Seung Min, I want to start with you. You have been accused of being an astute Congress watcher. Where are we this morning with these two plans up for a vote yesterday? How much does this matter?

SEUNG MIN KIM, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, "THE WASHINGTON POST": Well, these -- these -- this legislation, as you guys noted earlier, are not expected to go anywhere.

But I think there has been a pent-up desire in the Senate to at least vote on something to break a logjam, to perhaps show the president, show the public that these -- these plans in its current form, whether it's the draft that the White House came up with, with these immigration changes, or a clean -- what we call a clean funding bill with no wall funding, cannot pass the Senate. So there has to be a third option.

The problem right now is that the Republicans are -- the Republicans are kind of mostly talking amongst themselves. The president and Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer have not had substantive negotiations in some time. There are some bipartisan discussions going on, but they've mostly been focused on procedural discussions and not necessarily the policy changes.

And for the most part, Republicans are still very much in lockstep behind the president and what the president wants in terms of his wall funding.

Late last week, my colleague and I talked to about 40 Republican senators, so a vast, vast majority of the Senate Republican conference. And very few are willing to say, "We should just go ahead and pass something without a wall because the shutdown needs to end. They are all saying we need border security, we need that wall, and we stand behind the president."

CAMEROTA: David Gregory, this is what's so frustrating to everyday Americans. Which is, OK, so tomorrow there will be these two votes. So they're going to spin their wheels, and they'll maybe make a big show of it, and it's an exercise in futility. Neither one -- I mean, why are they going through this exercise?

GREGORY: Well, it's posturing. I mean, it just keeps the argument going, and they'll look at poll numbers and see who's got the upper hand.

But both of their hands are getting worse and worse here as people look and start to conflate the president's position with the Democrats. And both of them have a victory in sight. There is a compromise that makes sense, border wall funding for a permanent fix for the DREAMers. And there's reasons why both sides could look at that as being nonstarters with their own core supporters.

But I think Democrats are fighting a larger fight here over not negotiating during a federal shutdown. And not caving in during that shutdown and not separating out. That's what the president has created here as a crisis.

And we're losing any sense of what a real crisis looks like if the president is going to create something like this just to reach a particular end, which he could have reached before when he had Republican control of Congress.

BERMAN: Yes. I mean, they had a vote last year, several votes last year on plans that members of both sides more than agree on it today.

CAMEROTA: For more money.

BERMAN: We have more money, but permanent protections, as well. You're talking about the real-world impact here. In a little bit, I'm going to talk to someone from the FBI Agents Association who will tell us that the country is less safe because of this shutdown. And we heard from the commandant of the Coast Guard, who is really angry about this. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ADMIRAL KARL L. SCHULTZ, COMMANDANT OF THE U.S. COAST GUARD: We're five plus weeks into the anxiety and stress of this government lapse in your non-pay. You, as members of the armed forces, should not be expected to shoulder this burden.

I find it unacceptable that Coast Guard men and women have to rely on food pantries and donations to get through day-to-day life as service members.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: It really is astounding. We lose sight of it. To hear an official like that say that "We are being let down. The government is not doing its job."

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: Well, I mean, you know, it is hard to believe that it's even legal, though it is, that we have thousands of people in this country, in the federal government, working for no pay. You know, we have minimum-wage laws in this country so things like this don't happen. But because of peculiarities of federal employment, it is possible for the federal government to say to thousands of people, not all 800,000, but quite a few, like at the TSA, like at the Coast Guard, at the FBI, you have to go to work; but we're not paying you anything at all. I mean, just -- it is mindboggling that this is even legal.

CAMEROTA: Seung Min, have you heard any movement from Nancy Pelosi? So Nancy Pelosi's position was always "We're not going to negotiate during a government shutdown, because that sets a very bad precedent. And then any time that there's a policy difference, and the president doesn't get his way, there can be this sort of petulant shutdown." I mean, I'm trying to represent her position. "So we're not going to do it."

But now that you hear all this pain that, as John was saying, the FBI's saying that there's a national security crisis, or at least issue, according to the FBI, has that calculus changed?

KIM: Well, Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer, as well, are still very resolute in their position that you cannot negotiate while the government is closed. They say they are happy to have that discussion on these immigration changes, but you've got to get the government open first even if it's just a matter of weeks through February. You know what? Immigration is a very complicated issue.

It does take time to work out details of legislation. If you really want a lasting bipartisan deal, it does take some time that Democrats say cannot happen while the government remains shuttered.

You are sensing some pressure from Democrats to at least do something, but right now in their leadership, they are resolute that this -- you know, the government has to open first and nothing else.

GREGORY: The problem is that the Republicans went to Trump and said, "Don't do this," and he did it anyway, meaning shut down the government.

Nancy Pelosi, I think, has staked out untenable ground by saying the wall is a moral issue. There is already a wall. There's already fencing. That ship has sailed a long time ago, and Democrats have supported it.

What I think Democrats ought to be looking at is that they can get what was illusive, which is a deal on the DREAMers. If they really push for that, perhaps a permanent fix, if they give up on this, those again, are the contours of the deal.

And the question becomes, does this voting today, which is posturing, lead to serious conversations, at least on the Senate side, for something that may approach what the president would want and what Democrats can claim as a victory, as well.

BERMAN: Seung Min, you have some new reporting on the status of the state of the state of the union, as it were.

KIM: So right now, the White House is forging ahead as if the State of the Union were still happening next week on January 29.

The problem for the White House is that Nancy Pelosi controls the House chamber. It is kind of her domain. Usually, every year, the House and the Senate pass a concurrent resolution to allow the president to be able to use that chamber. It is always a very pro forma procedure, but again, this is not a normal Washington. So this has become an issue. Now, Pelosi hasn't actually rescinded her invitation, and it is unclear. I haven't gotten a straight answer whether she will not pass this resolution that will allow the president to use this chamber.

But the White House is pressing on. Indeed, the White House is preparing two different versions of his a speech, one to be used in Washington, particularly if the government is still shut down, or somewhere else nationwide. He's gotten offers from the speakers of the North Carolina and Michigan legislatures to use their chambers. The president said, "Thanks but no thanks."

But I think we can expect to see some sort of a grand speech from the president next Tuesday. Just -- we don't know where.

CAMEROTA: Huh. Has the president actually said, "No thanks" to those state legislatures, or they've just said, "We'll get back to you"?

KIM: They've said, at least with the North Carolina leader, he said, you know, "Thank you for the invitation, but we're still kind of settling on a location right now."

CAMEROTA: Look, John and I need to know our travel plans, all right, for next week. And so that's part of the issue.

TOOBIN: It's all about you.

CAMEROTA: Well, obviously. But the other part of the issue is why doesn't Trump just take it on the road? He likes to take it on the road. He's actually more comfortable on the road.

TOOBIN: He may well.

CAMEROTA: And in that case, wouldn't he have -- I posed this to Bakari Sellers last -- last hour, but I want to know your thoughts. Wouldn't he have outfoxed Nancy Pelosi if that's the case? That she sort of disinvites him, and then he takes it on the road and he's more comfortable there anyway?

TOOBIN: No, I don't think so. I think, you know, part of being president of the United States is giving the State of the Union address in the Capitol. That is one of the great rituals of American government. And Donald Trump has given many speeches in many places. If this is just another speech out on the road, I think that is significantly worse than giving the State of the Union address.

[07:10:14] Now, does it matter in the grand scheme of things? I don't know. But I do think it is no coincidence that the president and his people are concerned about this issue. They're trying to get it done in the Capitol chamber. But, may not happen.

BERMAN: You know who agrees with you is former Republican congressman, Trey Gowdy. Let's listen to what he had to say about that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TREY GOWDY (R), FORMER SOUTH CAROLINA CONGRESSMAN: Don't -- don't do

a rally. This is for everyone, including people that don't agree with you. Including for Americans who will never vote for you. This is the leader of the free world, the leader of our country addressing the citizenry. I would encourage him not to do it in a rally.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: This is a speech to all of America.

GREGORY: Right. And this is the trappings of the presidency, as Jeffrey says, which I think are so important. And it is the bully pulpit.

The president also knows that he used that pulpit. He used the hallowed space of the Oval Office to give an address that really didn't move minds, that didn't change opinions on the wall.

What he doesn't seem to get is that, as president, you want to be big. You want to take the opportunity to try to reach a bigger group. He could go down the escalator of Trump Tower again and speak about, you know, rapists coming across the border as he's already done, and he could have the same core supporters he's always had.

If he wants to put more pressure on Democrats, he's got to go bigger and reach more people with an actual solution here that would change minds and build momentum for what he wants.

CAMEROTA: Jeffrey, let's move on to Rudy Giuliani. Have you been wondering, as I have and so many have, if the president is pleased with Rudy Giuliani's performances of late, where he quotes the president directly and then says, "No, that was actually a hypothetical?" Things like that, the times where Rudy Giuliani claims -- well, actually does reveal some sort of bombshell and then has to walk it back the next day? I have been wondering, how does President Trump feel about this? And so we have some reporting.

TOOBIN: Yes.

CAMEROTA: So there's reporting in, say, "Vanity Fair" this morning that says that the people around the president are getting quite dismayed by Rudy Giuliani's performance, and that the president is -- in fact is upset and that Rudy Giuliani's job may be in jeopardy. That's not our reporting.

Our CNN reporting is that, no, Rudy Giuliani's job is safe, and the president, in fact, likes the obfuscation of it all.

TOOBIN: Well, you know, I think, you know, we've obviously focused on the semi-comic figure of Rudy Giuliani for some time.

It is worth remembering why Rudy Giuliani is having all these problems. The problem is that the president lied throughout the campaign about his relationship with Russia. That's becoming clearer and clearer, that he was involved in negotiations with Russia over this tower all throughout the campaign. CAMEROTA: We really don't know when they ended. That's part of the

question.

TOOBIN: We don't know when they ended. And Giuliani is trying to deal with the fact that the -- the facts have now belied what the president was saying. That's a difficult problem. That is not Rudy Giuliani's problem; it's the president's problem.

So, yes, Rudy has made many, you know, comic mistakes and confusions, but the root of it all is the fact that the president has been lying about his activities, not that Rudy Giuliani is the villain here, ultimately.

BERMAN: You know, Seung Min, it CNN's reporting that the president doesn't want to fire Rudy Giuliani.

However, there is the reporting in "Vanity Fair" and "Politico" and the A.P. this morning, which includes some just scathing quotes, blind quotes, albeit, but scathing quotes about Giuliani from White House insiders and people close to the president. It does show that there is concern, at least, within, you know, those people close to the administration that Giuliani is letting the president down.

KIM: Exactly. I mean, there is some level of discontentment, I think it's fair to say; and it remains to be seen just how high that is at this point.

But Rudy Giuliani's job since he joined the president's legal team last year seemed to always be this kind of role of a spokesman rather -- or more of a spokesman than an attorney. And I think he has gone out there and said a lot of things about the investigation, many of those comments that had to have been walked back.

And I thought, I mean, it was only -- it was less than a week ago, or it was about a week ago when he went on Chris Cuomo's show and said, "I never said there was no collusion between the Trump -- Trump entities and Russia."

And I think a lot of it, whether there's a grander strategy here to kind of obscure the facts for the public while we wait for the Mueller investigation to conclude, I'll -- you know, I'll leave that to others to speculate. But it is just kind of remarkable how often he has to go up there and clean up his mistakes.

TOOBIN: It's also worth remembering almost the entire Trump administration senior levels have turned over. He's become unhappy with everyone. I mean, everyone except Kellyanne Conway and his family members have pretty much gone.

[07:15:04] So you have to believe that he's unhappy with Giuliani, because he's unhappy with everybody. And they've all pretty much left before the end of, you know, two years.

CAMEROTA: Quickly, David.

GREGORY: By the way, the easiest thing to get in Washington is a blind quote from somebody near the president, who says that he's unhappy or they're unhappy or they're dismayed. Of course they are, because the president can be dismayed and then happy the next day.

As long as Rudy Giuliani's out there putting up a smoke screen and fighting hard, at the end of the day, that's what this president cares about.

BERMAN: All right. David, Seung Min, Jeffrey, thank you very much.

FBI agents with a stark warning. The government shutdown is putting national security at risk. The head of the bureau's Agents Association tells us his message to lawmakers, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: FBI insiders have a clear warning for lawmakers. The government shutdown is hurting the agency's law enforcement efforts.

The organization representing most of the bureau's active-duty special agents released a report where one anonymous FBI agent writes, "The shutdown has eliminated any ability to operate. The fear is our enemies know they can run freely."

[07:20:05] Joining us now is Tom O'Connor, president of the FBI Agents Association, which released this report.

Tom, that line, "Our agents [SIC] know they can run freely," is it a fair assessment of that statement that you are all saying that the government shutdown is making America less safe?

TOM O'CONNOR, PRESIDENT, FBI AGENTS ASSOCIATION: Well, the government shutdown is causing the funds that are used for our tools to make investigations complete and to do our jobs is making it more difficult.

The statements that are in the voices from the field were compiled from across the United States by FBI Agents Association members. And this is how they're feeling. So the statements stand as they are.

FBI agents are out on the street every day. We're still doing our jobs. We're working every day, and as you see from the headlines, we're making arrests. We're thwarting terrorism. We're doing all this work, and we're doing so with less and less tools at our -- available to us because of the government shutdown.

BERMAN: Another one of the statements inside this report, "Not being able to pay confidential human sources risks losing them and the information they provide forever. It is not a switch that we turn on and off." Again, that word "forever" there.

I know you say this is funds, and you're out there doing your job, but can you do the job as well with the government shut down?

O'CONNOR: I think the answer is no, we can't do our job as well, because it takes money to conduct investigations. The confidential

human sources that this agent member talked about is someone who's obviously being paid.

And people talk to the FBI and give us sources of information for many reasons. And one of them is that it is a paid for information. And if we're not paying those people and in the cases that you're reading from the voices from the field, that's apparent that we're not able to do that as well as we have before January 21. That does limit our abilities to work with confidential human sources in that field.

BERMAN: It's interesting, because the president has argued that the wall that he wants to build along the border is necessary to fight terrorism, to stop drug trafficking, to battle MS-13 and gangs in the United States. This report by the FBI Agents Association includes quotes suggesting that all of these battles are being hurt by the government shutdown.

Is it intentional here on your part to tell the president, you know what? You say you want to wage these fights, but you're hurting these fights with the shutdown?

O'CONNOR: The FBI Agents Association has been and will continue to be not political in any way. We don't have a political stance in any of this.

What we're saying is that the government should open up. The FBI should be fully funded so that our efforts and our investigations can be completed at the best of our ability; and that the FBI agents and support employees who are working every single day should be paid, so that they can take care of their families and have less financial insecurity, which we equate with national security in and of itself.

BERMAN: You say you want to take care of your families. Your wife is an agent, too.

O'CONNOR: She is an agent. She's also my boss on the evidence response team, so my life is complete.

BERMAN: Well, welcome to the crowd, having your wife as your boss.

But listen, when it comes to how you are being affected by this and the other agents in the force are being affected by this, we keep hearing stories about food banks, agents and FBI employees needing to get food to get by. How is this affecting morale?

O'CONNOR: Clearly, morale is not good when it comes to the shutdown. People are still motivated to do our job, because we do it because we believe in protecting the American people and upholding the Constitution.

When it comes to the shutdown and having to have food brought into your FBI office to assist family members to actually bring food home so they can feed their families, that's just outrageous.

I met two very good friends in the office this morning before coming over here, and two people I highly respect; and they thanked us for having the food in the office, because it really helps. To me, that's utterly disgusting that the FBI is in a position to have

this happen. But it does bring, you know -- there's a silver lining in that the FBI, the FBI family comes together. We take care of each other, but we shouldn't have to take care of each other, because we're working. We should be getting paid.

The FBI should be fully funded so we have the tools do our job and open the government. That is not a political statement. It is a fact. Open the government, fund the FBI so we have all the tools in our tool bucket to do our jobs and pay the people who are working.

I think some of the misconception is that FBI agents are on furlough, and we're not working. We are working. We're working every day. We're thwarting terrorism attacks. We're arresting criminals. We just need to do so with the tools that make it as efficient as we possibly can. We'll get the job done, but it's not easy.

[07:25:03] BERMAN: The tools, yes. The tools include the money to buy food.

Finally, I just want to say the FBI did put out a statement after the report that the FBI Agents Association released. The FBI statement is, "This report is a product of the FBIAA, a nonprofit professional association, and was not issued by the FBI."

Are you getting any official pushback to maybe be quiet or not complain so much about a shutdown?

O'CONNOR: No. Not at all. And I appreciate the FBI coming out and saying that this was an FBI Association -- Agents Association document. We put a lot of time and effort into this. The members across the country dedicated themselves to sending in these true stories of what's happening in the field. And we take full credit for that and we appreciate the FBI giving us full credit.

The second page of the document explains what the FBI Agents Association's goal and what we do is. So yes, we put this out, and I'm glad that the FBI gave us credit for that. I appreciate that.

BERMAN: Tom O'Connor, thank you very much for joining us, helping us understand the effect this is having on you and the other agents.

O'CONNOR: Thank you. Now I've got to go back to work and see how I can get this makeup off, so I don't really get (ph) to that.

BERMAN: You're going back to work, and you're not going to get paid for it.

O'CONNOR: That's the sad truth, yes.

BERMAN: For more information on how you can assist federal workers affected by the shutdown, you can go to CNN.com/impact.

CAMEROTA: OK. Democratic presidential hopefuls are hitting road with an interesting message. They're sorry. Is this an apology tour ahead of the 2020 race? (COMMERCIAL BREAK)