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CUOMO PRIME TIME

Shutdown Talks Continue After Back-To-Back Bill Fail; WH Preparing National Emergency Proclamation; Trump Suggests Ending Shutdown With "Down Payment" For Wall; Collins Among Six Republicans Who Voted Against GOP Bill. Aired 9-10p ET

Aired January 24, 2019 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: News continues. I want to hand it over to Chris for "CUOMO PRIME TIME." Chris?

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: Thank you, Anderson. I am Chris Cuomo. And welcome to PRIME TIME. We've had new developments in the last few minutes on shutdown talks after hopes of a break through in the last few hours and we have new information on drastic next moves that President could take or at least he thinks he could if talks fail.

Will he really go solo to build his wall? And can he? His counselor, Kellyanne Conway, his most ardent defender is supposed to join us tonight. We now know who is willing to break ranks with President Trump to get the government reopened again.

There were two big votes today and we have one of the people who voted on both of them, Susan Collins, one of six Republicans to cross the aisle today in the Senate and Michael Cohen may appear on Capitol Hill after all. The committee he lied to has subpoenaed him. Will he tell members the truth this time? The word is that's all he wants to do. What do you say? Let's get after it.

I wish I had better news. You know, there were these two big votes today. Both of them went down. Part of the news is we saw more Republicans voting against the President's position. They voted yes on the second bill but not enough to get to the number they need to override cloture. Fancy words, the bottom line, they didn't get it done.

Then we heard that there's talk going on that Mitch McConnell outwardly saying the shutdown has to end. Inwardly saying let's make a deal. He and Chuck Schumer were huddled together today after the two bills failed in the Senate. So it gave some hope. They're trying to make a deal. Finally they're working together. This is what the business is supposed to be. Not a shutdown.

However, according to the Senate Majority Leader, there has been no substantial progress. All right, one thing they were mulling over was this option to reopen the government what they call a temporary continuing resolution. Temporary C.R., open it back up for a few weeks, a month, month and a half and allow them to then have the time to make a deal on border security. The President insists that would include a down payment for his wall. Down payment means nothing in political lands (ph) and it did more confusion than anything else. Schumer's team once they've figured out what he was talking about said that's a no go. Here was the President earlier about that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: If they come to a reasonable agreement, I would support it. I have other alternatives if I have to and I'll use those alternatives if I have to. We want to go through the system, we have to have a wall in this country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: Now, you can argue whether or not you have to have a wall. We'll do that with his important counsel, Kellyanne Conway in a moment. How he would do it really matters. And we have some exclusive reporting tonight after we talk to Kellyanne and get the political side, I'm going to break down the policy side for you in a way that will show what has to happen and how it has to happen for the President to declare a national emergency or do something else. All right, we have some exclusive reporting on that, but now let's bring in arguably the President's best defender, White House Counselor, Kellyanne Conway, always good to have you on the show.

KELLYANNE CONWAY, COUNSELOR TO PRESIDENT TRUMP: Thank you, Chris. Hi.

CUOMO: Good. A little bit of breaking news, I'm sure you've heard about it. I just want your take on it. This report about security is clearances there, it does not involve you personally, but some 30 members of the administration were found to be insufficiently cleared. The career experts said they should not be cleared. Most notably Jared Kushner that there were concerns about potential foreign influence on him and then with all 30 of them, somebody who was installed from the Pentagon by the Trump administration in a senior position overruled all of the findings. Are you aware of this, and if so, do you agree with this decision?

CONWAY: This is just breaking as I walked over here from a different meeting on border security and the shutdown. So I can't really comment on that, Chris. I know it's a brand new report. There's nothing I can say about it accept that I'm sure I work side by side with many of these people every single day and find them to be upstanding Americans who are trying to serve their country as best they can, but I can't really comment on the specifics because I have not had a chance to even read the report which I think is from a different network as I was wanting over here to join you.

CUOMO: All right, it's an NBC News report. I just wanted your take on it, especially because of the stuff about Jared Kushner. We heard this before. The word from the White House, and again in fairness, not from you, but from the White House had been, no, no there was no real problem. It was about him getting out information. He has got a sophisticated background. It's different than what they're used to dealing with. Now we hear two Intel experts looked at it and said we understand he has potential conflicts, we can't clear him, and that was overruled. Is that a concerned?

CONWAY: Well, since you mentioned Jared's name, let me say he has a right to respond or to have other response on his behalf and to layout the facts accordingly as he wishes to. I can't do that on his behalf because I'm not familiar with what you're talking about.

[21:05:08] CUOMO: Fine, fair enough --

CONWAY: But I was with the President today and others while he was discussing with senators who had just voted and other -- his negotiating team which includes Jared Kushner and the Vice President and our team up on Capitol Hill today trying to work through the negotiations and I'm very, very pleased that both leaders in the Senate, Chuck Schumer and Mitch McConnell have been meeting really throughout the day if not the evening to try to broker a deal. It's a big improvement over Nancy Pelosi's no. We just feel like she has been saying no. She said no again tonight when the President said perhaps a short-term C.R. plus a good substantial down payment on the barrier at the Southern border.

CUOMO: Right, but you know down payment --

(CROSSTALK)

CONWAY: It does because she offered $1. That's not a down payment. That's insulting. Her $1 and her no is a big insult.

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: But they're putting up a lot more.

CONWAY: Angle kids that I've met, they lost their loved ones.

CUOMO: They're putting up more than $1. And if you're going to feel badly for people, you feel bad for the people who are victims but you also have to include the victims in the shutdown and the President and people around him have given every indication that they don't get that pain.

CONWAY: That's not fair. I feel for them.

CUOMO: Whether it's him saying, we'll make adjustments. Wilbur Ross saying he doesn't understand the need. They can just get loans. That's out of touch, Kellyanne.

CONWAY: Chris, we feel for them. Some of them are our own colleagues here at the White House and none of them, I guess are on Capitol Hill. They're fully funded, fully staffed with this security details. And by the way, why did these people go home on Thursdays and come back on Tuesdays? Can we get the Congress to stay in town, talk it through, come to the table and hash it out and make a deal.

CUOMO: If McConnell would have let them vote, this could have been over weeks ago.

CONWAY: Well, they voted today on a couple of measures as you know, but I wanted to get back to what you said about the 800,000 federal workers. I have great compassion for them. I was raised by a single mom. She used to put clothes on layaway. I wasn't raised in privilege. And she's the best mom ever. But of course I have compassion. We all do for those individuals -- but the President --

CUOMO: No, you don't know. Look, Kellyanne, I know your background well. The President said they'll make adjustments. I get it. I can relate, landlords will work with them. Mortgage banks will work with them.

(CROSSTALK)

CONWAY: He cares about them and he said today. Those are mitigation -- those are things that the government can do to mitigate to help people along.

CUOMO: How?

CONWAY: But that's different than the core question. That's different than the core question of caring about people. The President said today during a trade meeting but he had the press pool in there as I understand, he said I love them, I respect them and of course he wants them to come back to work.

CUOMO: Show it.

CONWAY: Well, the way that it's shown is to have a bipartisan agreement to get border security interview, open up the government. I just want to say, that it's been five days since President Trump publicly proposed a new plan and we're yet to get a counter offer. All we hear is no and $1. And do you know what's in that plan, that proposal? You can put up the items for your audience, Chris. Do you know what's in there? All the things the Democrats wanted, DACA, TPS --

CUOMO: Not true.

CONWAY: -- border security, 27,150 new border patrol agent, 75 new immigration judges. It's so much that they have asked for.

CUOMO: You've greatly compromise DACA in here and you know that, you know the particulars.

CONWAY: They never expected DACA and TPS to be in there.

CUOMO: It creates onerous conditions on these people and they're already in a tough spot. It is not what it was originally.

CONWAY: The President has compromised, he has come to the table and he has come to where they are where the Democrats, are they said we want money for humanitarian needs. This proposal has $800 million to meet those humanitarian needs. It has $805 million for technology and other detections.

CUOMO: And they argue the priorities are screwed up because of his farcical promise of a wall he wants the money to go for the physical barriers when you can't make a compelling argument that that matters as much as the other components.

CONWAY: The physical barrier is important. It's a centerpiece of overall border security because that's basic.

CUOMO: For you it's a centerpiece.

CONWAY: No, for many Democrats that voted in 2006.

CUOMO: Never a centerpiece.

CONWAY: Hold on, I've never been in the Senate and certainly not in 2006 when Joe Biden and Barrack Obama and Hillary Clinton voted for, yes, and yes Chuck Schumer voted for it --

CUOMO: Yes, 2013 also the Democrats put together almost 64 billion that included physical barrier and the Republican doubled it.

CONWAY: That's right, because they believe physical barriers are important.

CUOMO: But they never said it was central, it was never a centerpiece and it's not now.

CONWAY: But it's not here at all. Why is it not here at all?

CUOMO: A wall wouldn't even stop the problems that the President made up.

CONWAY: That's just not true. That is not true. And you know why I know that? Because I talk to border patrol.

CUOMO: Me too.

CONWAY: This was not a wish list that was invented here at the White House. It's coming from border patrol. They say here is what we need to enable us to do our jobs more effectively and more thoroughly. They are stretched. You know --

CUOMO: Yes, they need a lot.

CONWAY: You know, it's really changed in the past --

[21:10:01] CUOMO: Yes, the flow is unbelievable.

CONWAY: -- at least single males coming from Mexico and now it's unaccompanied children --

CUOMO: Yes. They've never seen flow like this.

CONWAY: -- and family who is coming from the northern --

CUOMO: And a world doesn't address that.

CONWAY: That is different. That's not true.

CUOMO: It is.

CONWAY: But a barrier -- We need a barrier, in addition to everything else I've just mentioned. The Democrats has said, we want the technology --

CUOMO: Yes.

CONWAY: -- we want the detention beds, the humanitarian --

CUOMO: Yes.

CONWAY: -- needs met. It's all in there.

CUOMO: Yes.

CONWAY: It's all in there.

CUOMO: Yes. But it's flipped --

CONWAY: And he sprinkled --

CUOMO: -- in terms of priority. He says the wall -- see, look, we know what's going on here, Kellyanne.

CONWAY: He says it all.

CUOMO: He did something during the primary --

CONWAY: Can you and I agree that all of it is importance?

CUOMO: -- that at the time frustrated you, right? When he was saying the wall is the big thing and Mexico is going to pay for it and all of you guys even on the Republican side were like please. Now he's trying to create an imaginary way to make that come true and he's saying that a wall is all.

CONWAY: I respectfully disagree. I respectfully disagree --

CUOMO: Well, but that's all he talks about is the wall and he makes up circumstances --

CONWAY: -- because even today --

CUOMO: -- that a wall will fix. Look, he did it today. Play the sound of the President today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: The drugs are pouring in and yes they come through the ports of entry but the big trucks come through areas where you don't have a wall and you have wide open spaces.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: You find me a truck that can drive --

CONWAY: You know that's true?

CUOMO: Of course it's not true, Kellyanne. Well, I don't know who told him that probably -- CONWAY: Can we talk about the drugs?

CUOMO: -- talks to something.

CONWAY: Can we just talk about the drugs in a very serious manner. You and I --

CUOMO: Sure.

CONWAY: -- have seven children. This is important. Seven school age children. I've met these families we have 300 people in America -- Americans every week dying of heroin overdoses.

CUOMO: The wall is not the answer.

CONWAY: And -- hold on, 90 percent of it comes through the southern border, increasingly Chinese fentanyl is coming through the southern border. We certainly --

CUOMO: Not in for traffic.

CONWAY: Heroin is coming through many different ways. It comes through our own postal service. But you know what happened a couple of months ago? Every single Democrat who voted, voted in favor of that big drug legislation and what did it do? It admitted that we have a serious drug crisis --

CUOMO: Hundred percent.

CONWAY: -- in our country and one of the measures in there, Christopher, was to interdict drugs coming in from other country through --

CUOMO: They should.

CONWAY: -- our own postal service.

CUOMO: You should.

CONWAY: So they've already -- but these Democrats have already admitted and they've already put their vote --

CUOMO: But the wall is not the solution.

CONWAY: -- and the money there.

CUOMO: The President just made something up about trucks coming through the desert. The coast guard interdicts the most amount of drugs in the Caribbean and in the water.

CONWAYT: It comes in many different ways.

CUOMO: Then you have trucks in the ports of entry where they get the bulk of it.

CONWAY: It comes through many -- CUOMO: But he's describing the least way and he wants to spend the

most on stopping it because of this farcical promise.

CONWAY: Hold on. Hold on. I just want to say last week in the Rio Grande, it didn't get a lot of coverage unfortunately, complete news. One of my grievances in complete news, in complete coverage the Rio Grande interdicted --

CUOMO: 700 pounds of cocaine --

CONWAY: -- I think it was like 700 --

CUOMO: -- that they found --

CONWAY: Right. Exactly.

CUOMO: -- on four runner vehicles. They used migrants as a distraction. It was 40% of the take --

CONWAY: But it's just examples --

CUOMO: -- that they've had between.

CONWAY: -- and we've got many examples.

CUOMO: 700 pounds was 40 percent. They get ten times that in the other places. A wall is not the answer.

CONWAY: Chris --

CUOMO: Not the complete answer.

CONWAY: If it's not zero, that batch of cocaine or heroin or Chinese fentanyl, or meth can be coming into your community into your house --

CUOMO: Absolutely, but if you want to stop drugs there's so many other ways and you know we've --

CONWAY: We're doing it many ways.

CUOMO: -- done a beautiful job on priorities. You wouldn't be spending this much money, this many billions of dollars on something that is a marginal part of the solution.

CONWAY: I do want to ask you --

CUOMO: He is because he's putting himself before the problem.

CONWAY: No. No. No. He just wants the same kind of physical barrier a keen to what we already have in so many areas along the southern border.

CUOMO: I'm glad you said that because the President says there's nothing there. It's all wide open. Thank you for admitting that.

CONWAY: Well some -- No, no, no, some if -- no, that's not true. Some of it is there. I'm saying in many different stretches there's plenty of wall that's been built, plenty of physical barriers that are there and you know that.

CUOMO: Yes.

CONWAY: And the reason there to renovate it as well.

CUOMO: Yes.

CONWAY: But it's just completely ridiculous and inane for anybody who has a vote, has been elected to public office to look their constituents in the eye and say, you know what, we don't as part of this we don't need a physical barrier that someone can't crawl under --

CUOMO: They're not saying --they're saying they will not prioritize this --

CONWAY: -- climb over and drive you or walk around.

CUOMO: -- the way the President is because he's delivering on a far. But here's where it comes --

CONWAY: Well, they say no.

CUOMO: Here's what it comes to. At the end of the day, does the President now get the pain he created with the shutdown and is he motivated to end it soon?

CONWAY: The President's first and solemn duty is to keep this all safe and he says he will continue to do that through border security. He absolutely, we all see that there 800,000 federal workers including colleagues here throughout the administration who are going to be paid when the government reopens but I also want to say as they repeat what the President has said many time, Christopher, which the Democrats can come to the table and end this. He's the one --

CUOMO: They have.

CONWAY: -- Saturday?

CUOMO: He shut it down Kellyanne.

CONWAY: No.

CUOMO: He did this.

CONWAY: I'm glad that Schumer and McConnell are doing this. But why is Pelosi, let me just ask you a serious question. Why is she just saying no without a counter offer?

CUOMO: They put money on the table.

CONWAY: It shouldn't just look at what happen.

CUOMO: They had 25 billion on and he walked away -- CONWAY: That wasn't real.

CUOMO: They offered billion and he walked away because he's afraid of certain people --

CONWAY: That was authorized and not appropriated and you know it.

CUOMO: McConnell wouldn't do his job or this would have been over a while ago --

(CROSSTALK)

CONWAY: You're not going to get an argument from me.

[21:15:00] CUOMO: But, look, come on --

CONWAY: You're not going to get an argument from me that Republican --

CUOMO: -- he said on national T.V., Kellyanne --

CONWAY: -- in the House.

CUOMO: On T.V. he said this is me. I'll carry the mantle. I'll never blame you, Chuck. Of course he, you know, gave up on two of those. He blamed the Democrats right way. He didn't carry the mantle but he did start it.

CONWAY: No, I think the shutdown is shared because now you've got shared control of Capitol Hill and the Democrats can just come to the table. I've been in the situation room when -- since this has been made public, I'll just repeat it, when the President said, OK. So if I agreed to open up the government for 30 days will we get the barrier at the end of it, she said no. And he said OK, bye.

CUOMO: It's about priority.

CONWAY: He didn't blame --

CUOMO: It's about amount and it's about location. A lot of these places he wants a wall. You'd have to condemn people the problem.

CONWAY: Can we agree on the problem now? Can we agree on the problem that we do have drugs coming in through too many different ways including the southern border?

CUOMO: Absolutely. What we do not agree is that we are a wall away from stopping drugs. And I would take that money that you want to use. I use it in a half, does in other places and help the problem more than wall.

CONWAY: How do you explain the Secure Fences Act? It wasn't called the Secure Technology Act, the Secure Canine Act --

CUOMO: I'm not saying physical barrier aren't part of it.

CONWAY: -- a secure --

CUOMO: But it was never the same --

CONWAY: Thank you.

CUOMO: -- for peace until --

CONWAY: Thank you for admitting that.

CUOMO: I've said it many, many times on this show, Kellyanne.

CONWAY: It's very important.

CUOMO: I've never said we don't need physical barriers. I said it's a farce to say we're a wall away from the made up problems --

CONWAY: You know what the biggest farce --

CUOMO: -- but I got to leave it to you.

CONWAY: -- that we have it was Nancy Pelosi lying that there were security concerns surrounding the President, delivering his State of the Union Address --

CUOMO: She got those concerns from a DHS letter.

CONWAY: No. No. She got them from one person as far --

CUOMO: The secretary.

CONWAY: No. No. Not to say that DHS and the secret service assured the President and said publicly that they do not have security concerns. So she's inventing security concerns at the Capitol --

CUOMO: The message that the American people want to hear --

CONWAY: -- and he's concern of that real security concern with the border.

CUOMO: -- is that they shutdown this over and what the resolution is. When that's happened, we'll be in a good place.

CONWAY: We want the shutdown to be over too but we want border security. It has to come together. I'm glad that Schumer --

CUOMO: Well, you've created the shutdown, end the shutdown, make a deal.

CONWAY: -- and McConnell in meeting and our negotiating team hopefully will get closer to that reopening the government, getting border security.

CUOMO: I hope so as well.

CONWAY: That should be everybody's goal. Thank you.

CUOMO: I hope so as well. Kellyanne, I appreciate you coming here on short notice.

CONWAY: Thank you.

CUOMO: It's a big night. Thank you.

All right. So you hear the President's side. That's what he wants you to hear. That's what he wants you to think is true. We tested it. What do you think now? Let me know on Twitter.

The big piece of this is, what does he do if he doesn't get a deal? I told you, we have some exclusive reporting on what the POTUS' alternative plan is as he calls it. Wait until you hear how this would work, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[21:20:56] CUOMO: The President owns the shutdown and he has a tough case to make as you just heard with Kellyanne Conway that we are a wall away from fixing these problems that he invented. On National TV today he doubled down on the idea that this is about him.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I have other alternatives if I have to and I'll use those alternatives if I have to. We have a lot of alternatives.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: Alternative, what does that mean? CNN has some exclusive reporting on how they may try and end run around Congress' Constitutional power over the purse. Trump's own team is in completely on board but they've drawn up a draft. It reads impart, the massive amount of aliens who unlawfully enter the United States each day is a direct threat to the safety and security of our nation and constitutes a national emergency.

Now therefore, I, Donald J. Trump, by the authority vested in me by the Constitution and the laws of the United States of America including the National Emergency's Act hereby declare that a national emergency exists at the southern border of the United States.

Big question is, is this legal? That'll take time. The bigger question for me is, where would they get the money? Here's what we know, 681 million from the Treasury. They can get hold of that. Three billion in Pentagon civil works funds, 3.6 million in military construction money and another 200 million in DHS money. Who are they taking that money for? What would it deprive? Those are considerations only part of it.

So, for all the talk about tech and manpower, the President is only looking for money for the wall. Remember that when they make the case that they're about all security. Our reporting is, the draft says, environmental reviews can be skipped and there ways to go around contracting laws. Shortcuts for time.

So assuming they can get past to assure legal fight from Democrats about separation of powers and they can win lawsuits against environmental groups they still need somewhere to build the thing. And that could be a huge issue logistically and politically. Remember, most of them will hand along the border is not own by the United States, not Portland, especially in Texas, it's privately owned. A lot of those people voted for Trump and are not big fans of the government taking their property.

So, let say they don't want to sell. CBP is on website, Custom and Border Protection says, it'll use imminent domain. Now, setting aside whether or not this qualifies as an emergency the best case scenario is that this gives the President a way to declare a win while any work on a wall engineered this way is going to be tied up in court for a long, long time.

So the question becomes, should the President take this way out? Lots to debate, and we'll going to have a great one, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[21:26:57] CUOMO: All right. So, if the President can't get a deal and he's stuck in this shutdown of his own making, should he declare an emergency? We're back to that. Does POTUS have the right? Is it right?

The making of a great debate, Rick Santorum and Christine Quinn.

So, Rick, do you believe -- let's start at the beginning here, do you think the President finally understands the pain he's been causing with the shutdown and he is more amenable to a deal?

RICK SANTORUM, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I don't think that's the reason the President is going to make a deal, no. I don't think --

CUOMO: Really?

SANTORUM: No, I don't think --

CUOMO: All this pain we keep hearing about?

SANTORUM: No, I don't think the President sees that as a real -- if it is for him to make the deal. I think he's very much focused on getting --

CUOMO: Wow.

SANTORUM: -- the border security -- No. Look, I just -- I don't think that's a motivating factor for this President. I've seen no evidence in it.

CUOMO: You don't think all the stories we're hearing about the desperation and the risks to our safety and our servicemen and women who are doing jobs, keeping us safe without pay, that that's motivating him?

SANTORUM: If you ask my opinion, no, I don't think it is. CUOMO: OK.

SANTORUM: I think what's motivating him is to do the job to secure our country and to protect the American people. I think that's the motivating factor and that's why I said from the very beginning on the earliest -- one of the earliest shows this was going to be a very long shutdown because I don't think the President is going to bend because he is very focused on securing, you know, doing security measures to make sure that we're safe.

CUOMO: Well, he's fixated, Christine, on a wall. I mean, what we see with this national emergency draft, OK, just the draft we don't even know if the whole steps on board with it. He's trying to (inaudible) to get a lot of money to build a wall but nothing else. So obviously that's his priority. Do you think that's the right way to go?

CHRISTINE QUINN (D), FORMER NEW YORK CITY COUNCIL SPEAKER: Well, look, clearly, all the evidence indicates that this wall is a made up solution in many cases to made up fabricated problems that the President has put out there. You know, we've heard a lot and we heard it from Kellyanne Conway about --

CUOMO: Trucks driving across the desert filled with drugs.

QUINN: Not true.

CUOMO: It's not what happens.

QUINN: It's not what happens. Now, the vast majority of drugs come in through ports of entry --

CUOMO: And in the Caribbean, coast guard and addiction (ph) people who're working for free right now, they get a ton of it.

QUINN: And let's not also forget our opioid crisis here in America really began and is very contribute to buy prescription medication --

CUOMO: Right. Fentanyl coming from abroad, from Asia. Huge problem. Nobody can deny it.

QUINN: Right. But the wall is not going to stop that from happening. It's spending a vast amount of money to solve a problem that needs solving but to do it in the way that all the facts and data --

CUOMO: Right.

QUINN: -- show you is the wrong way. So, what is the shutdown about? It's about President Trump's ego. It's about him getting -- maybe theoretically ahead of himself in all those rallies where he was screaming Mexico will build a wall.

CUOMO: Right.

QUINN: Mexico was never going to pay for the wall. And so, now he's out there with egg on his face that one half of this has fallen apart and his bad idea. He's just going to push for it and push for it because, Rick is right. Because he doesn't have any sensitivity or empathy or sympathy or awareness about the pain, real life pain the shutdown has causing.

[21:30:09] SANTORUM: I think what the President sees is a temporary pain, there's no question people are going through pain but they also know that these people are going to get to the -- the federal employees are going to get paid back and it is a temporary inconvenience and it's --

(CROSSTALK)

SANTORUM: I understand all of that, Chris, but the point is the President's focused on is a permanent and a serious problem at our border that affects the security of our country.

CUOMO: Yes, here is the problem with your argument --

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: Hold on Christine. Rick, I'm with you 100 percent. But one, there was never reason to put it on the backs of the American people. They have nothing to do with this. You can even do your job and make --

SANTORUM: Well that takes two to do that, Chris. The idea that any shutdown --

SANTORUM: No, it doesn't. He shut it down.

SANTORUM: The idea that any shutdown, whether it was the shutdown or the Republicans in '95, or there was the Schumer shutdown just a year ago, that that's one sided, it is never one sided.

QUINN: The President said it. The President said this is my shutdown. I won't blame you.

CUOMO: Right.

(CROSSTALK)

SANTORUM: The only solution that Nancy Pelosi will accept is complete capitulation by the President. That does not --

CUOMO: That's not true. They gave 25 billion that included physical borders. They got over billion in the table now.

SANTORUM: Can we stop on this 25 billion, because you throw this up at me all the time.

CUOMO: Yes.

SANTORUM: You know that -- hold on, Chris, stop. Stop.

CUOMO: All right, go ahead, Rick. Make your case.

SANTORUM: You know the difference between an authorization and an appropriation, do you not? And if you don't, I'll be happy to educate your viewers.

CUOMO: Next time, I know what it means.

SANTORUM: An authorization is that we put -- we say in legislation --

CUOMO: Yes.

SANTORUM: -- that this amount of money can be spent on this. None of it is going to be spent until there is an appropriation.

CUOMO: Right.

SANTORUM: That's what we're talking about here now. Where the Congress comes back and says, OK, we're allowed under the law to spend this money --

CUOMO: Right.

SANTORUM: -- and here's how much we'll appropriate this year to do it.

CUOMO: Right.

SANTORUM: So when you say there's $25 million on the table --

CUOMO: Billion.

SANTORUM: -- that's -- billion -- that is simply not true, Chris. Not a penny was appropriated.

CUOMO: Well wait. He didn't get to that --

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: Hold on, hold on. Rick, Rick, Rick, you've got to be willing to be right and you've got to be willing to be open. They never got to that point because when the President said yes to the deal and went back to people on the far right of your party and they said, we need chain migration, family reunification. We need to make these hedges on legal immigration, get back in there, boss. He then walked away from the deal.

QUINN: So Rick, you're trying --

CUOMO: So it never got that far because of his own walk away.

SANTORUM: I think there are a lot of reasons the deal weren't done but don't throw out that the Democrats agreed to $25 billion.

CUOMO: And don't forget the fact that he walked away. The process was incomplete at his own reckoning and here's your ultimate problem.

SANTORUM: But quit using 25 billion.

CUOMO: Well I'm going to use it. That was the number on the table.

SANTORUM: It's false.

CUOMO: That was the number on the table.

QUINN: Can we stop for a second.

CUOMO: All right, go ahead Christine, last point to you.

QUINN: You're playing on the semantics of appropriation.

SANTORUM: It's not semantics.

QUINN: Stop it Rick.

SANTORUM: You stop it.

QUINN: You keep talking.

SANTORUM: Quit lying. 25 billion wasn't left forward.

QUINN: There is no room left to lie in this show because you've taken it all in the live that you had put out. But let's go back to the reality here.

CUOMO: Christine you finish. Go ahead, last point to you.

QUINN: On the Anderson's show, they had a federal -- a work -- a family that's a federal worker. Their child lives on a freezing and feeding tube. They may get paid back later, God knows when, but they're going to get evicted before that. They may have to turn off their power before that. And God knows that will be catastrophic for that child. That's the real world here. And we're having this argument because President Trump has a solution that won't solve the problem that he has raised and the problems that he has created and those are the facts.

CUOMO: All right, look we know the pain is real. We have to see if the result in the shutdown is we should know soon if this is going to end any time soon. Rick Santorum, well argued and thank you. Christine Quinn, always great to have you on the show.

All right. So, some Republicans are feeling this pain of the shutdown. They get it. How do we know? They voted for both bills today because they're so desperate to reopen the government. That includes Republican Susan Collins from Maine. She crossed party lines. She's here to explain why, and why she says don't be such a cynic, Cuomo. It's not as bad as you think in terms of getting an answer

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[21:37:26] CUOMO: All right, so today was supposed to be a day of some time of decision in the Senate. There were two proposals up. Which would win? Neither. Both failed.

The Democrats plan, however, did score more votes than the President in the GOP controlled Senate with some attrition in the ranks, why? Republicans like Susan Collins broke ranks. That, let's bring in the Senator right now from Maine.

Senator, thank you very much for joining us.

SEN. SUSAN COLLINS (R), MAINE: Glad to be on your show, Chris.

CUOMO: So Senator, give me cause for hope. Your colleagues are leaving. I keep being told, no, there's not going to be any end to this any time soon. You say maybe there will be an end soon. Why the optimism?

COLLINS: I actually saw signs of progress for the first time since the shutdown began, today. First of all, we did consider on the Senate floor two separate plans. I voted for both of them, that would have resulted in the reopening of government. That's progress.

We haven't been debating plans on the Senate floor that would have made a difference. So that lead to negotiations that are on going between the Senate Republican leader and the Democratic leader and I'm hopeful that those will bear fruit.

CUOMO: You signed both bills. I there were six or seven senators, I have a list of them, that voted for both. Help me understand that. Isn't this about either saying the President should get the money he wants for the wall or he shouldn't? How do you vote yes for both?

COLLINS: I voted yes on both because my top priority is to reopen government. This is the longest shutdown in our history and it's harming 800,000 federal employees and their families. It's causing them to struggle to pay their bills without paychecks.

There's going to be a second missed paycheck very soon if we don't solve this and it's interfering with small businesses, people who need government assistance. It has widespread impacts on our economy and our people and it has to be brought to an end. So I'm for any reasonable plan that will bring it to an end.

CUOMO: Do you think the President is being reasonable? Do you think he gets the pain that you just articulated with his comments about, they'll make adjustments and, you know, his daughter-in-law saying, you know, this is pain for you, but it's for a greater cause. And his cabinet member saying, you know, yes, I don't understand why they would have to be waiting in line for food. Do you think he gets the pain that he's causing?

[21:40:15] COLLINS: There's plenty of blame to go around on this shutdown but I'm not sure that the President fully understands what it's like to live paycheck to paycheck as a lot of people in my state and elsewhere do.

CUOMO: As for McConnell, Senator, you know he could have put votes up weeks ago that may have well ended this shutdown. He had bills on his desk that he knows you guys had voted for in the past. He didn't put them on because the President told him not to.

COLLINS: The problem is that for Senator McConnell to go forth with the bill, which I'm very glad that he did today, that he knows the President is going to veto, I think he felt -- and I don't mean to speak for him -- but seemed rather pointless. Look, we've got people who are being intransigent on both sides of the floor. Nancy Pelosi, the Speaker of the House that say not one penny or not one dollar for any kind of physical barrier on the southern border when in the past she's voted --

CUOMO: Yes.

COLLINS: -- for physical barriers.

CUOMO: You're absolutely right. You know, Senator Collins, I come to you very often because you are a straight shooter in a way that is not easy to find in Washington D.C. I know that Nancy Pelosi answered a question by saying no, maybe I'd give him a dollar, but you do know that Democrats have over a billion dollars on the table right now. They offered 25 billion over 5 years before.

They've always offered money for physical barriers. Is it fair to hold Pelosi to that political answer when you know that they have money on the table?

COLLINS: Well, I'm glad to see that there's some in the House who seem to be breaking away from what she said, but that is, in fact, what she said. Listen, I think the most encouraging thing is 16 of us, eight Republicans, eight Democrats were on the floor after the votes today and we said we'll draft plans to try to reopen government and that's significant that the rank in file members of the Senate are coming forward and saying this cannot stand.

CUOMO: How do you work in good faith with the other side when you have the President interjecting things that are almost seemingly designed to blow up any negotiations? Did you hear the things he said today about a deal and him having other alternatives and here's what he's going to do and we found his money and then putting out that they had the money to put $7 billion into a wall? You know that all of that is kryptonite to the other side. Is that helpful?

COLLINS: Well, it isn't helpful. I think it would be more helpful if the President let Chuck Schumer and Mitch McConnell try to negotiate a plan. And I can assure you that the 16 of us are proceeding to negotiate a proposal as well. And --

CUOMO: Is McConnell allowed to negotiate, Senator, by the way, or is he still just the President's proxy.

COLLINS: He is clearly negotiating and wants this to end. He is -- he apparently had a good first meeting with Chuck Schumer. They're finally talking this. I wish this would happen months ago, a month ago but at least it's finally happening.

And as far as the President's use of emergency powers, I think that it's very dubious from a constitutional perspective. I don't think the President could take money that Congress as allocated for specific purposes and then repurpose it to build physical barriers, walls, fences, whatever. CUOMO: If you had to take a guess, an educated guess, a hopeful guess, do you think there will be a shutdown next week or the week after?

COLLINS: My best guess is the end is in sight. I hope it will be by the end of next week. I am just sick that this has gone on so long. And that's why I supported both proposals today and I've co-sponsored a Democratic bill to have a three week or a two week continuing resolution that would reopen government while we continue to negotiate the border security issue.

CUOMO: Senator Susan Collins, I know you're very busy. Thank you very much for taking time to be on the show.

COLLINS: Thank you, Chris.

CUOMO: Let's hope the Senator is right about the direction. But hopefully the President hears her on two other points.

[21:45:04] Your hyperbolic talk is not helping the situation and the pain that you're causing is real and it's time that you get that. So in terms of the effect, we keep learning more about how deep and dangerous it is. The institutions that keep us safe are being hurt. A security warning on behalf of some of the people who protect the President and his family, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CUOMO: A new shutdown warning directly to President Trump from the Federal Law Enforcement Federal Officers Association. "Many of our members conduct conflicts investigation including tracking terrorists, identifying foreign actors, protecting elected officials including you and your family. As the shutdown continues, they are being put in both a fiscally and personally compromising position."

Let's bring in Don Lemon right now. Dozens of agencies including the Secret Service are included in this agent, in this association.

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Yes. And that says law enforcement officers, people who are tasked with protecting us, and protecting members of the administration and the President. Of course, we know Secret Service is not getting paid, coast guard and on and on.

And it's just -- can't they just get loans?

CUOMO: Can't they just get loans?

LEMON: Can't they just get loans?

CUOMO: Wilbur Ross --

LEMON: But that speaks to that.

CUOMO: -- he's paraphrasing.

LEMON: That speaks to this letter that you just read. That's -- they're trying to get folks to understand this. The President is saying, I'll going to make adjustments and then, you know, someone like Wilbur Ross saying, can't they just get loans and they can do -- I mean, I was just talking to someone who's going to be on the show, Frank Bruni earlier and said this. That's a clarifying moment. And I agree with him. It's a clarifying moment.

[21:50:22] CUOMO: And Kellyanne is his best defender, and when I asked about whether or not he gets the pain, she had to go to the truth of her background, that her family, that she knows what real need is, she knows what penny pinching is, that is true about her.

LEMON: Yes, I don't talk it about her.

CUOMO: Right. But her defense of him, not so much. Susan Collins, Republican, Senator for Maine, she doesn't think he get to. Rick Santorum, I don't think he gets it.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: What do you got?

LEMON: Well, I'm going to see at the top of the hour, we're going to go over this whole, "let them eat cake." If you can call it that, so I think it's actually worse than that. And then as I said, Frank Bruni is going to be on, Kathryn Ranfell (ph) here with me as well. We're going to break all of it down.

CUOMO: OK, see you in a minute.

LEMON: I'll see you. OK.

CUOMO: All right. So what do we know? We know that the shutdown was wrong, we know it's a bad politics, we know people are paying the price for the President's promise. All right, those around him keep suggesting, suck it up, get a loan, it is going to be OK, right? Wrong. Next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[21:55:41] CUOMO: All right. It wasn't fair for me to compare the Trump troop to Marie Antoinette, because she didn't say "Let them eat cake" but this administration has keep doubling down on dumb when it comes to understanding the pain of the shutdown. POTUS doesn't get the pain. And he does not get where people are on this. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Many of the people that are not getting paid are totally in favor of what we are doing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: Polls prove that is B.S. Workers are literally on the streets waiting for food. His commerce secretary and fellow rich guy said this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WILBUR ROSS, COMMERCE SECRETARY: I don't really quite understand why, because as I mentioned before the obligations that they would undertake say borrowing from a bank or a credit union are in effect federally guaranteed. So the 30 days of pay that some people will be out is no real reason why they shouldn't be able to get a loan against it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: What are you talking about? Get a loan? Do you know what that costs? Do you know how hard it is for people to get loans or collateral they need or credit cards? You want them to use those, they charge a fortune for borrowing and it is the reason so many can't get ahead, and you are encouraging that to pay for the shutdown. The President then tried to clear it up and made it worse.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: If you have mortgages, the mortgagees and the folks collecting the interest and all of those things, they work along, and that is what is happening in the time like this, they know the people they've been dealing with them for years and they work along, the grocery store, and I think that is probably what Wilbur Ross meant.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: Who cares. You don't get it. The President said that he would reach tout landlords and make sure they are easy on the shutdown victims. Do you see him making good on that? Who thinks that the grocery stores and the mortgage banks are going to go easy on the folks? You know what he's doing? The President is confusing the treatment he got from the banks because of his ability to have family millions to prop him up as collateral. It's not the real world. The only thing worse and causing this shutdown and not getting the pain that he has caused is denying that ignorance of the reality and that's what one Trump daughter-in-law tried to do today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LARA TRUMP, PRESIDENT'S DAUGHTER-IN-LAW: I have a lot of respect for anyone who is a government worker who has not been paid who is trying to make ends meet right now, and the fact that anyone would portray me in any other light, I found very upsetting.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: You are upset. Look, I don't go after the family here, but look to be clear, the only fake thing here is her denial of what she said, which is this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

L. TRUMP: It is not fair to you and we all get that, but this is so much bigger than any one person. It is a little bit of pain, but it is going to be for the future of our country. (END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: The irony. Not only is it so much bigger than any one person, it is only about one person. This is about the President keeping a fugazi promise. Here is the reality. This is over. There is no question that the shutdown is hurting the President's leverage with the lawmakers, even within his own party, you see more of his own voted against him today on the Senate side. Not enough, but more.

It's hurting him with his base, he's back in the mid 30s in the polls and more importantly and he doesn't get this, so let's make it easy, not paying people who need to be paid hurts those people. They don't want to be hurt for your wall. They are not OK with it. You are hurting them. You are hurting our safety, our economy. And any chance of ever working with the other side.

The game is over. You cannot win by continuing to shutdown the government. Delaying the pain of having the back off of your farce of a wall which does not solve the crisis that you created of illegal foot traffic being the source of drug and terror entry that's a lie, delaying the pain by extending the pain on innocent families is wrong.

Look, Trump folk may not be like Antoinette, in fact, they probably make her blush, but they certainly are acting like monarchs, and that does not work in America. Make a deal, and stop the pain. The game is over.

Thank you for watching tonight. "CNN TONIGHT" with Don Lemon starts right now.