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Senate to Vote on Dueling Bills to End Shutdown; Sources: Trump Pleased with Giuliani's Performance as Lawyer. Aired 6-6:30a ET

Aired January 24, 2019 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY), MAJORITY LEADER: The opportunity to end all this is staring us right in the face. That's why we'll vote on this legislation.

[05:59:35] SEN. TIM KAINE (D), VIRGINIA: The second vote is to just reopen government while we work to see if we can find a compromise.

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), MAJORITY LEADER: We cannot have the president every time says "I'll shut down government until you come to my way of thinking."

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She has a standing invitation here, any time she wants to come. She's got to come here and negotiate.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are really playing with fire here. There's a lot of business that can't get done.

ADMIRAL KARL L. SCHULTZ, COMMANDANT OF THE U.S. COAST GUARD: I find it unacceptable that Coast Guard men and women have to rely on food pantries to get through day-to-day as service members.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY with Alisyn Camerota and John Berman.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Welcome to our viewers in the United States and all around the world. This is NEW DAY. It's Wednesday, January 23, 6 a.m. here in New York. It is day 33 of the longest government shutdown in U.S. history.

Good news is that the Senate is going to vote on something to end it. The bad news is that it almost definitely won't pass. The worse news is that 800,000 federal workers missed their second paycheck this week. The scary news is that the FBI Agents Association warns investigations into terror and drug trafficking are being hurt by this.

The expensive news is that "The Washington Post" reports hundreds of IRS employees are skipping work, which could mean your tax refunds will be delayed.

So expensive, scary, worse and bad, but at least the Senate is going to vote on something that likely won't pass.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: There is that. So what exactly is the Senate voting on today? No. 1, a Republican proposal for nearly $6 billion for President Trump's border wall and some temporary protections for DACA recipients that may be moot now because of the Supreme Court.

No. 2, a Democratic plan to reopen the government without providing those new funds for the wall.

And, as lawmakers struggle to break this impasse, the White House says it is moving forward with the State of the Union plans, even though they have even, I should say, requested a walkthrough on Capitol Hill, though they're not sure if they're truly invited.

A Trump adviser tells CNN they're also considering holding a rally instead of the typical address. Conservative allies are even suggesting the president give the speech at the southern border.

As for the Russia investigation, sources tell CNN that, despite his contradictory and sometimes bizarre interviews, the president's lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, will not be getting the axe.

BERMAN: So there's that. Joining us now, CNN political analyst David Gregory; Phil Mudd, former FBI former senior intelligence adviser; Doug Heye, a Republican strategist and CNN political commentator; and Bakari Sellers, a Democrat and a new father of twin children, which means, Bakari, I know you can get up early because sleep isn't even in the picture.

CAMEROTA: And you're in our club. Welcome.

BERMAN: Welcome to the club.

BAKARI SELLERS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Thank you.

BERMAN: All right. I just worked hard to toss shade all over the Senate votes today.

However, Doug Heye, I do think there is something in there that you will see very clearly here. Mitch McConnell is doing something new here. He's not just allowing a vote on the president's plan, but a Democratic vote. Why? Why is he doing this and what hope, if any, does this provide?

DOUG HEYE, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, well, he didn't have a vote for a long time, because, obviously, Donald Trump pulled the carpet from -- out from under him. So we were in this long stalemate of where the Senate wasn't doing anything.

This is a new course, because clearly -- and this is what McConnell's team was sent to the White House. They've told them this is untenable. The situation that we're seeing, whether it's at airports, whether it's at food shelter or food pantries or shelters throughout the country, is untenable for there not to be action in the Senate. That's why they're moving on bills today. And you're right: neither bill is probably going to become law, but at

least we'll start to winnow down this process to see where Republicans stand, where Democrats stand and where votes may shift.

CAMEROTA: OK. So that's Mitch McConnell's play. Bakari, give us the Democratic side of how you think they are attempting to break the impasse.

SELLERS: Well, I do believe that Donald Trump's proposal is dead on arrival. The changes that were made to asylum seekers, no longer allowing them or ending the Obama-era program where asylum seekers can actually seek that asylum at the border. They now also have to do that in their home countries. It's just DOA. It's considered to be a poison pill by many of us who care about these asylum seekers, who care about these people who are fleeing terror in their own countries.

In fact, if you talk to people on Capitol Hill, ,they refer to it as the Stephen Miller special, because we know this is something he inserted to make this dead on arrival. And we don't believe the president is seriously negotiating using that tactic.

But what I will say is that we have to challenge Democrats and Republicans alike because, as Doug said, there are real people who are suffering.

I actually spoke to some Coast Guard members who were literally having to go to food pantries. You have United States attorneys, some of which have just graduated from law school -- this is their first job out of law school -- who cannot afford to eat, because they don't have a savings built up. There are 800,000 people who are directly affected.

And I know that we praise my good friend, Speaker Pelosi, for her gamesmanship in running circles around Donald Trump, but now we have to kind of just put up. We have to do what's best for the American people. And that is end the shutdown, doing whatever we can do. I think that's end the shutdown, push the date out till February 8 or wherever, and allow some negotiation period. But at least allow people to get their checks and get back to work.

BERMAN: And Bakari was talking about real-world consequences here. In addition to the things we mentioned in the open, the TSA is having to shift some employees to airports that are understaffed, because people aren't showing up to work. I mean, this is really hurting.

And Phil, the FBI Agents Association yesterday came out with a pretty stark report that included sort of blind quotes from a bunch of agents working in different areas saying how dangerous this shutdown is.

[06:05:04] I'll read just one of them. It talks about confidential sources, for instance: "Not being able to pay confidential human sources risks losing them and the information they provide forever. It is not a switch that we can turn on and off."

Does this make America less safe, Phil?

PHIL MUDD, CNN COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: I think it does in the long term. That's hard to measure day by day.

I think what's happening here in the FBI's Agents Association is pointing this out. Is that in the early days of the shutdown, we had visuals that are good for news. Trash piling up at national parks. Now the American people, who rarely see the inner workings of government, are starting to hear about it.

Let me give you a couple of other examples beyond the one you cited. For example, when you call a tip line in a major city and say, "I see financial corruption at my company," who follows up on that tip?

If your city is losing agents to retirement, I question whether training programs at the FBI Academy in Quantico, Virginia, are continuing. Those aren't critical, but over time those agents aren't going to graduate.

Let me give you one that's really important in the age of globalization. The FBI trains foreign security officers at Quantico. Those relationships overseas really develop when you need to make a phone call and say, "Hey, we've got a fugitive in your country. Can you help us?" I'm going to bet they're not training any foreigners now.

These hidden pieces, John, of government are really important. It's the stuff Americans never see, but they're hearing about it now.

CAMEROTA: David Gregory, we come to you for your sage wisdom every day. You've seen Washington paralysis for years. What's going to happen today?

DAVID GREGORY, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, I think, again, the only glimmer of hope is that the legislative process starts to churn, and it may be totally ineffective with these votes until and unless there's some, you know, quieter negotiation to get to a place that maybe the president finds acceptable to break the impasse or at least do what I think is so important, which is to get out of the zone of being in a shutdown.

You know, the problem is what's really at stake here is the notion of what is crisis? What is a crisis facing the country? And the president describes what's happening at the border as a crisis. It's not. It's something that he's created to kind of build the narrative and to make this a priority.

It's fine for him to want to make it a priority and to build support for it, he certainly did that in the 2016 race among core supporters. And he can try to continue to build that momentum. But to shut the government down, to be able to force a crisis atmosphere to get negotiation, is something that's -- that's bigger than this particular episode.

And that is what is so outside the norms of D.C. and how the government works. And it shouldn't work that way. So I think that's the important piece, is to get it out of the government shutdown piece, and then I do think everybody should be negotiating on this. BERMAN: Just one more point on outside the norms here. The Coast

Guard commandant, the admiral in charge of the Coast Guard, made an extraordinary on-camera statement yesterday about this. And I just want people to see this and let it sink in.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: We're five-plus weeks into the anxiety and stress of this government lapse in your non-pay. You, as members of the armed forces, should not be expected to shoulder this burden. I find it unacceptable that Coast Guard men and women have to rely on food pantries and donations to get through day-to-day life as service members.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Yes, I mean, this is hurting people.

GREGORY: Can I just add, John?

BERMAN: Yes.

GREGORY: I feel like we have -- we're losing a sense of what a real crisis is. Just as we're losing a sense of what outrage is. We're so quick to be outraged. I think these are the kinds of impulses that are really at stake here beyond, you know, the back and forth on the particulars.

CAMEROTA: Yes. The thing that got my attention most -- I mean, that Coast Guard one is, of course, striking -- is the FBI, Phil. I mean, the FBI coming forward and having, as you point out, to educate Americans about how they are currently engaged in counterterrorism investigations, right? So the very thing that President Trump and all Americans want, to keep us safe.

The FBI focused on informants who they can no longer pay, and investigations that they can no longer fund. Here's 106 to our producers: "We have lost several sources who have worked for months and years to penetrate groups and target subjects. These assets cannot be replaced."

This is real time. In real time, they say they are losing their ability to crack terrorism cases.

MUDD: I think there's another piece of this. You're pointing out the FBI Agents Association. I dealt with them a bit when I was at the bureau. They're very proud, obviously, as they should be, of what they do for a living. You just heard the Coast Guard commandant speaking, two agencies that are responsible for protecting America.

The emotional piece of this, Alisyn, beyond the tactical pieces of whether you can pay a human source, are thousands of people, tens of thousands of people in the Coast Guard and the FBI who sit there, in my case 25, 30, 35 years, and say, "We get decent pay, maybe not great pay, to protect America, and this is what the government thinks of us? This is why we do this for a living?" If you're in the Coast Guard or the FBI, the FBI dealing at the border, this is why we put our lives in danger, for people that said, "You're not even significant enough for to us pay?"

[06:10:11] Inside government, this is really painful. It's beyond the tactics; it's painful.

BERMAN: There's one other thing from the FBI Agents Association that I just want to point out. It seemed as if they were intentionally pointing out the areas that President Trump says he wants to fight with the wall. The president says he want to fight drug trafficking and terror, while the FBI Agents Association saying, "You are hurting that fight with this shutdown."

The State of the Union Tuesday night or not at this point? I'm going to bet on "or not," but Doug Heye, where do you think it's going? The president continues to insist he's making two plans. There's all kinds of reporting that he's got a speech that he could deliver to the House, and he's got another speech that he could deliver somewhere else if he has to.

HEYE: Yes, I think very clearly it doesn't look like there's going to be a State of the Union speech at the House. The House has to vote. And they've already invited him and then rescinded the invitation, but there still has to be a vote to welcome the president.

This is one of the few pressure points that Pelosi has here, where they've been going back and forth.

And one thing I would say, John and Alisyn, what I remember from the 2013 shutdown most clearly was, having worked in House leadership at the time, was Republicans had 1/3 of 1/2 of government. And for some reason we thought that we hold -- we held leverage, we held all the cards. The reality is, we didn't.

And while I have sympathy for the Democrats' argument that we shouldn't have to do what Donald Trump wants to just so that we can reopen the government, that we have to then go through the back and forth of all of this and know that, in the future, this tactic could be used again, ultimately, Democrats have to be mindful.

They don't politically have the leverage here, despite poll numbers, because either side can see whatever they want in the poll numbers. They have 1/3 of 1/2 of government. That makes moving forward politically very difficult for them.

CAMEROTA: Bakari, is it also possible that President Trumps has actually outfoxed Nancy Pelosi? Because Nancy Pelosi said, for security reasons, that we should not go forward with the State of the Union on Tuesday. And DHS has come forward and said, "No, we've handled those. We've got this. We'll be just fine."

And so now she's in the position of either having to officially disinvite him, and then he will take his speech and go to a state legislature somewhere more friendly, Michigan or North Carolina, or she has to concede that, "OK, I guess security has been addressed," even though that might have been a red herring to begin with. SELLERS: Well, no, I don't think he outfoxed the speaker. What we do

see, though, is that Nancy Pelosi -- and I agree with Doug to a certain extent. We don't have all the cards. But we do have the cards in this particular situation.

Because during this -- because doing this shutdown there are say Trump-owned shutdown, you have Americans that are hurting. We just spent the first half of this block taking about the 800,000 Americans -- the FBI agents, the Coast Guards, et cetera -- who are hurting right now. And so when people see Americans truly going through pain, when people afraid to fly because of the FBI that is -- that is not getting paid and not being able to do their due diligence; because TSA is overworked and stressed and not having enough members show up --

CAMEROTA: But I mean specifically just on the State of the Union is he getting the upper hand right now?

SELLERS: He's not. I mean, what the president has reaffirmed to everyone is that he's the president of 35 percent of the people. Now, he's going to make his base extremely happy, but I actually agree with Trey Gowdy at this point. This should not be a rally. This should be -- the State of the Union is meant for all Americans, even though those who did not vote for you.

BERMAN: Let's play -- Bakari, you brought up Trey Gowdy. Trey Gowdy, former South Carolina Republican congressman, who said this about what the president should do with this speech.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TREY GOWDY (R), FORMER SOUTH CAROLINA CONGRESSMAN: Don't -- don't do a rally. This is for everyone, including people that don't agree with you. Including for Americans who will never vote for you. This is the leader of the free world, the leader of our country addressing the citizenry. I would encourage him not to do it in a rally.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: The liberation of being a former member of Congress there.

That's what I was thinking.

David, quick last word?

GREGORY: You know, it's easier for Trey Gowdy to say that now that he doesn't feel any of that pressure.

Look, the president's got the megaphone. He's got the bully pulpit. He can use it. The warning sign for him is did this already, and it really didn't move the country overall. That's the danger for him.

But, he's got the ability to keep on the pressure. And as Bakari alluded to earlier, Democrats may have the upper hand. They may have a lot of the principles here, but they're going to feel this pressure too. They're going to be swept up in part of the government machine that is keeping these workers out of work at the moment. CAMEROTA: Gentlemen, thank you very much for all of your

perspectives. Obviously, anything can happen over the next three hours.

If you'd like information about how you can assist federal workers impacted by the shutdown, you can go to CNN.com/impact.

BERMAN: All right. After Rudy Giuliani's string of contradictory statements about the Trump Tower project in Moscow -- this is the president's plan to build a Trump Tower in Moscow -- there were reports that the president's really mad at him. Well, maybe not. We have the reality for you next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:18:45] CAMEROTA: Is the president pleased with what Rudy Giuliani has been doing? That is the question this morning, because there are varying reports.

There are some reports that President Trump is upset with his lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, after Giuliani said the president was involved in Trump Tower Moscow discussions through the end of the 2016 campaign.

But other sources tell CNN that, while the president was not thrilled, he was not actually angry; and Giuliani's job is not in jeopardy. In fact, apparently, the president thinks Giuliani is effective and likes, quote, "the obfuscation of it all."

We're joined now --

BERMAN: I -- can you -- you can hear President Trump using the word "obfuscation of -- of it all."

CAMEROTA: I mean, I don't know about this. That's why we have our guests to dissect this: Phil Mudd, John Avlon and Laura Coates, a former federal prosecutor.

Again, John Avlon, we must come to you as our Giuliani whisperer.

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Our Rudy whisperer?

CAMEROTA: Yes, our Rudy whisperer. Is Rudy Giuliani's job safe? Do you think the president really likes what he's doing on TV?

AVLON: I think that line, "the obfuscation of it all," in addition to being a great album title at some point, does speak to part of Rudy's value to Donald Trump. He's been an effective attack dog, playing the court of public opinion; also creating a lot of distraction and confusion, which Trump loves.

Here's the thing. Donald Trump, ultimately, loyalty is a great value to him but is a one-way street. He is only loyal to people with whom he is blood-related. And at some point, Rudy Giuliani, who has been steadfast and stuck with him and really sacrificed a great deal of his own reputation, I believe, to defend Donald Trump, at some point, Donald Trump will find him expendable. It's just a question of when. [06:20:17] BERMAN: It's interesting. We're presenting this as an

either/or. I think it's very possible. It's all true, once, that the president was shouting at the television all weekend when Rudy was saying that -- that Trump was talking to Michael Cohen about Trump Tower all the way through the election, but still likes the obfuscation of it all.

Laura, Counselor, let me ask you. Should the president, as the client here, be upset with his attorney?

LAURA COATES, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, he should. He absolutely should. And here's why. On the one hand, yes, he's a political operative. He's trying to be a publicist, but he actually is the president's attorney.

And as the president's attorney, he does two things wrong, primarily. I mean, on a long list of things. No. 1, every time he quotes the president, or "I just spoke to the president" or "I just had this conversation," he reveals things that are presumably privileged, which means that now it's fair game for anyone to ask, including Mueller, about these issues.

Also, on the idea, and I'm not going to try to spell, like a Scripps Spelling Bee, the obfuscation aspect of it, but I will tell you this. The notion that the president's attorney is backtracking after the president has already provided written answers leads to more questions for Mueller.

It invites Mueller to say, "Well, it may be over your dead body, as you're talking about, Giuliani, but as counsel, you have now called into question, perhaps, the written statements of your own client; and you've taken away the privilege so I can maybe call you as a witness or I can ask the president questions that follow up." And it puts the client in the position to have to defend or clarify his own attorney's statements. That's never a good thing.

CAMEROTA: Phil, as a professional investigator, I just want you to know with -- what you would be dealing with, if you had to interrogate or interview Rudy Giuliani.

Here is the quote that he gave to Politico overnight. He says, "I do have a mastery of the facts, which is why I can spin them, honestly, argue them several different ways."

That's a challenge when you're trying to get to the heart of the matter.

MUD: Well, people are asking why the Mueller investigation is taking so long. One is that there's a lot of detail here. For example, financial records, overseas people you'll never speak with in places like Ukraine and Russia.

But think about what you just read from Giuliani. You're dealing with years of data, for example, from the raids on Michael Cohen's offices. Now you look at everybody you want to talk to in the Trump orbit to give you a picture of the story, the narrative. Manafort, Gates, George Papadopoulos, Michael Cohen. Now, Rudy Giuliani, who's as much as admitting that he lies.

Every one of those people or many of them who have been under the microscope, have been charged with lying for federal agents. So for everybody out there who wants to know why this investigation goes so long, look at all the indictments for lying to the feds, and look at what Rudy says about spinning, which I interpret as a Washingtonian as the same as lying. That's one reason the investigation goes on; nobody tells the truth.

AVLON: And that just goes to tone comes from the top. I mean, you know, Kellyanne Conway infamously said no one makes you take an oath when you go on television. That approach to playing the press is utterly at odds with the search for the truth the law is supposed to be, even when you're trying to do your job defending your client.

BERMAN: Rudy Giuliani, fact master. Is that what you refer to him. That's what he said. I am a master of the facts. Black belt, "I'm a black belt in facts."

AVLON: Ninth-degree fact master.

BERMAN: Ninth-degree black belt in facts.

Laura, yesterday CNN had a report, we were the first to report, that the special counsel, Robert Mueller's, team is asking, has been asking about the Trump campaign ties to the NRA as part of the Russia investigation. Specifically talking to Sam Nunberg last February about this, trying to figure out some of the timing about how and why the president came to speak to the NRA a couple months before he became an official candidate.

I'm confused about what you think they might be looking for here. What's the connection to the Russia investigation?

COATES: Well, remember that the NRA enjoys a very unique role, in that it doesn't have to disclose its most elite donors, who provide over $5,000.

It also doesn't -- it also has only a political action wing, which means that only that political action wing is the one that has to disclose where its money is going, or whether it's going towards election-related matters.

It's fair game to transfer money between others of its account, which means that there could be money being fueled [SIC] -- funneled in that's used for electioneering purposes ultimately.

Why that's important is because the NRA is allowed to accept foreign donations. And there are prominent Russian businessmen who are tied to somebody who just recently pled guilty, Maria Butina about an issue involving conspiracy against the United States.

And so you've got this combination of two things. Whether or not there has been a foreign agency or a foreign government or a foreign national, funneling money into the NRA that's then being used for political purposes, which is against the law. [06:25:06] And you also have the fact that the NRA spent what? Thirty

million dollars to try to get President Trump elected? That's more than all of it spent in all the Senate races, presidential races, congressional races from 2008 and 2012. That combination of where is the money coming from and where can we follow the money is precisely why someone like Robert Mueller wants to know what happened.

AVLON: It's a huge deal, right? This is the NRA, conservative rock group NRA of Ronald Reagan and Charlton Heston, being accused and now investigated by Mueller of funneling Russian money into our elections, basically being used as a dupe, as a front, as a vehicle to an end.

And the Russian accused, Aleksandr Torshin, he's a former central banker and incredibly shady, is tied up with -- the Butina case, which itself is fascinating. To see the NRA sort of potentially exposed as being so vulnerable to Russian influences, itself a fascinating twist in the story of this organization's influence on American politics.

CAMEROTA: How do you see it, Phil? We know that Maria Butina was trying to make inroads into the NRA and, as Laura points out, she has pleaded guilty to acting on behalf of the Russians. So investigatively, what do you see?

MUDD: I don't see this as a critical piece of the investigation. I would echo what Laura said.

Let me give you a way to think about this, Alisyn. And that is if you get that information about Butina, if you look at the amount of money that the NRA was investing into this campaign; if you did not look into whether money going into the NRA was dirty, somebody could rightly ask the special counsel, "You didn't even bother to look?"

I'm not here to suggest that the NRA did anything significantly wrong. I'm here to say the reverse would be if you get that information on Butina, and you say, "It doesn't look significant. I'm just going to leave that on the cutting room floor," that wouldn't make sense to me.

BERMAN: Yes. We just don't know how farther pushing here, and we have been told, for instance, that the president was not -- not asked about the NRA in the written questions.

Laura, very quickly: Michael Cohen still scheduled to testify before the House on February 7. We are hearing, though, from his attorneys that apparently, he won't be able to talk about anything that is currently under investigation.

Isn't that just about everything, then, that he won't be able to talk about?

COATES: Yes. Exactly. I mean, it might as well be him going in there and saying, "I plead the Fifth" and not going to answer any questions.

The only reason that this would be useful to the American people, to hear Michael Cohen testify, is about matters related to whether or not the president of the United States or then-candidate Donald Trump directed him, in some way, to lie to Congress or was involved in shady dealings.

If Michael Cohen cannot talk about those things and only can tangentially talk about his general rapport, it will not be as useful as illuminating the issue.

But the reason for this is quite sound. He's still under the thumb of the SDNY; he's still under the thumb of the Mueller probe. Which tells you that, if Mueller doesn't want him talking, Cohen is still very useful to them, and that should be very nerve-wracking for the president of the United States and all of his people in the orbit.

CAMEROTA: All right. It will be fascinating to see what he can actually disclose and what he's asked.

Laura, Phil, John, thank you all very much.

Presidential hopeful Senator Elizabeth Warren ripping into President Trump during her trip to Puerto Rico. So we have her fighting words in a live report next.

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