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Government Shutdown Continues over Border Wall Funding; New Book on Trump White House Indicates Kellyanne Conway is Prolific Leaker; Interview with House Majority Whip James Clyburn; Trump Recognizes Venezuelan Opposition leader as Nation's President. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired January 24, 2019 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00] DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. We are hearing from the White House, I heard from a source I know, Abby Phillip heard as well, is that he is telling his advisers and was last night, I don't want to do this anywhere else. I want to do it in the House, in the House Chamber where it is supposed to happen. That might be part of the reason, but there are obviously so many factors here.

First of all, they are seeing the poll numbers at the White House. They understand that this is not good for the president, for his approval rating generally, and of course on his issue his approval rating is so much lower than Nancy Pelosi's. That matters to the president.

And also, it's been going on a long time. And there was a sense listening to people like James Clyburn, who I know you are going to have on later this hour, talking about a potential new Democratic package in the House, that maybe that was an opening, and maybe things can cool for, I don't know, a few hours, while the Senate takes these show votes, which is that's what they are, going to be later today. They're going to get that out of their system and hope that maybe, maybe compromise can start to happen.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Krystal, when I read this tweet from the president, and as we know, sometimes these things are ghost-written by one of his staff.

KRYSTAL BALL, PRESIDENT, THE PEOPLE'S HOUSE PROJECT: Right, doesn't sound like him.

CAMEROTA: And this did not seem to follow his usual voice or syntax. However, but the message stands. It's hard to imagine somebody would have snuck in and grabbed Twitter away from him, wrestled Twitter away from him, and written it. And I just think it's notable. I think it's notable that he gave up the fight in the middle of the fight. I think that that we haven't seen often. And the tone of this, this is her prerogative, he says. There's no nasty Nancy nickname that he has given to so many other people. I think that we just need to pause for a moment and recognize there is some dynamic between Nancy Pelosi and President Trump that is different than the mold. BALL: That is going to be fascinating to watch unfold. But yes, what

is notable here is he actually made a good and presidential decision. He's absolutely right that trying to do the State of the Union somewhere else or knocking on the door and being rejected or whatever was going to be a mess, because the reality is, this president lost the shutdown fight before it ever happened when he had everybody in the Oval Office and said, I will take credit for the shutdown. I would be proud to shut down the government for border security. In that moment, the fight was over and it is not salvageable for him.

The other thing I would say here is welcome to divided government. For the first time, Democrats can't just go up and complain and whine, they actually have some power. And I think the president for the first time is wrapping his head around exactly what that means.

BASH: Can I say one quick thing? Not just power, but a powerful person who wields the power in a very direct and specific way.

BALL: That's right.

BASH: And I think that's why my understanding in talking to people around the president for some time is that that's why Nancy Pelosi doesn't so far have a nickname. He respects money and he respect power and being able to wield power. And she might have the first, but the second is really what's getting her his attention.

JOSHUA GREEN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: If you look at this fight over the State of the Union address, that is a fight that Nancy Pelosi herself orchestrated and then won. What is that if not a clear display of power? She sent a note to Trump saying, hey, maybe you want to rethink this. Trump said, no, I'm going to come, and she slapped it down and said, no, you're not going to come, and forced him to back down. That's a real display of power that he can understand and respect.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Krystal brought up the point where the president owned the shutdown. That may have been a high point for him in the battle because -- and Josh, you have written about this -- there are startling new economic numbers. There's startling security realities, realities for the 800,000 federal workers out there, but Kevin Hassett, the White House chief economist, told Poppy Harlow, said we could see zero percent growth this quarter. At "Bloomberg Businessweek," this is the kind of stuff you care about deeply.

GREEN: I wrote in the cover story, we went around and polled economists. Hassett came out and said we could zero out growth. And it is clear if this shutdown goes on there could be and eventually there will be a recession. So it has to rectify itself. The probably is there are two things different about this shutdown than past ones. Number one, it is the first one engineered by the president himself. That actually gives him a lot of power to mitigate the damage. He sent all the IRS workers back to work so that the middle class doesn't revolt when they don't get tax refunds. He's kept TSA workers on the job to the extent that he can. But what that means is the government has stayed shut and the economic damage has continued to compound to a really scary point. If this thing doesn't get settled in the next few weeks, there is going to be a real fallout that's going to be felt throughout the economy.

BALL: If I could just add on to that, there is reporting that Mick Mulvaney, the acting chief of staff -- whatever that means -- is going around trying to assess what programs are going to be impacted here.

CAMEROTA: If it goes on for months.

BALL: If it goes on through April.

CAMEROTA: Through April, yes.

BALL: And the reality is, look, you have TSA workers, you have correctional officers, you have Border Patrol agents, you have people who cannot go that long without a paycheck.

[08:05:09] They are going to up and get another job. Already, the head of the flight attendants' union is calling for a general strike. There is no way this lasts until April because it's already a crisis already. It will be an absolute catastrophe, airports shut down, and potentially really the end of this presidency. More dangerous to him than the Mueller probe or anything else is how the shutdown is resolved at this point.

CAMEROTA: So what's your reporting, Dana, on what happens today, because between the tweet, between now not having to worry about the window dressing of the State of the Union, it feels like maybe there is a detente, there's some --

BASH: Cracks in that glacier. It could. It could be. In traditional times, which we are not in now, but in traditional times when there is a standoff, the show votes, and I keep calling them that because that's what they are today in the U.S. Senate, are the ice breakers. They let members get off steam, they let them get on the record even more importantly for their supporters and for their constituents of where they are. In this case Republicans are going to supportive of the president's plan, Democrats are going to supportive of border security, reopening the government, no wall.

Then they can roll up their sleeves and get down to business. And that might be the case today because of the fact that while the Senate is doing their thing, the House is not going to have more votes this week, but they do have a proposal in the works to try to reignite these compromise talks, a lot more money than they have proposed on border security. Nothing for the wall, but things that the president does like which, the hope is, will at least start the conversation again which hasn't happened for weeks.

BERMAN: Josh, if I could change the subject wildly for a second here, I seem to remember that the first part of your book, the opening scene is Kellyanne Conway leaking, correct?

GREEN: It actually is. The opening anecdote of "Devil's Bargain" is Kellyanne Conway leaking, which has suddenly come back into the news.

BERMAN: It's come back into the news because Cliff Sims who has worked in the White House, left the White House, has a book coming out next weeks called "Team of Vipers," and dribs and drabs are being released over time. And he really goes after Kellyanne Conway, calls her a leaker, but among other things depicts her as literally a cartoon villain in the White House. This is what he says, "She was a cartoon villain brought to life. Her agenda, which was her survival over all others, including the president, became more and more transparent. She seemed to be perennially cloaked in an invisible fur coat, casting an all-knowing smile as if she'd collected 98 Dalmatians with only three more to go.

(LAUGHTER)

BERMAN: It's vivid imagery. It's incredibly harsh. But what's the point? Is there a bigger picture other than the normal backstabbing we see in a White House staff?

GREEN: What was interesting to me is this White House, more than any in my lifetime, is notorious for leaking. There are all sorts of people who leak. You had people pushed out of the administration, people like Steve Bannon, for leaking. Kellyanne Conway so far has not been. What's so shocking about this book and this "Vanity Fair" excerpt is Cliff Sims brings receipts. He described a scene where he's on her laptop watching her text in real-time leak against Trump and Bannon and Kushner and various members of the administration. So it presents a very vivid firsthand portrait of how the sausage is made in Washington, in this White House, in a way we haven't seen before on the record from a White House source.

CAMEROTA: And so the question is, how has she survived for so long? He has survived. She's a survivor. And I think that he gets to the heart of it when he says her agenda, which was her survival over all others including the president. So she's very can a canny, as we know, but why does the president allow leaks from her?

BASH: They have a very, very strong relationship. That has not stopped other people from getting the boot who have strong relationships with the president. But theirs is special and different for a lot of reasons. Just the most obvious is that she is the ultimate fighter. She goes out and she will fight with you and with you and with me and all of us for and about the president of the United States on television. We can't underscore enough he is a cable watcher. He is all about what is said on his behalf on television. And she does it, from his perspective, better than anybody.

BERMAN: Her comment, by the way, which she released overnight in response to this excerpt from "Vanity Fair" was "The real leakers past and present get much more positive press than I do. While it's rare, I prefer to knife people from the front, so they see it coming."

BALL: There you go. To Dana's point, if it doesn't happen on cable news for this president, it doesn't happen. And no one is better at just shamelessly spinning whatever happened to have happened than Kellyanne Conway.

[08:10:00] I also think there is an element here to where she leaks to so many people that nobody fingers her because they are getting information from her. They want to keep that relationship intact. So in a way it's a smart strategy.

BASH: And "leak" is an easy word to use and perhaps understand. But with any organization, with any campaign, with any political outfit, there is leak, but then there's also shaping the story. And she is not the only one to do that. And she is right. Steve Bannon did get fired for shaping the story against the president's son-in-law. So there is so much of that. He just hit the jackpot in sitting at her computer watching it, as you said so well, bringing the receipts.

PAUL: Josh, very quickly, Dana brought up the president's son-in-law here. When I read Kellyanne's response she says the people who really leak get much more positive press than I do. Is she talking about the president's son-in-law, who by the way, had a glowing profile in "The Washington Post" today?

GREEN: Could be. We'll see. What struck me about the state, that's what we call a nondenial denial.

CAMEROTA: But she can't cross Jared Kushner for long and keep her job. It sounds like she hasn't, but how does that work?

GREEN: She can't cross Jared Kushner publicly on the record which she hasn't. The only reason we know about this is because of Cliff Sims' book saying she was leaking against him. If that's true and it gets to Trump and he gets ornery about it, then maybe she's not long for this administration. But if there's one thing she's proved it's that she's a survivor.

CAMEROTA: That is her super power. And we will be having Cliff Sims on our program very soon. Thank you all, great to see you. Thanks so much for the insights.

A top House Democrat says he's willing to give the president $5.7 billion now for the border. Does that include a wall? Is this the ice breaker we have been waiting for? We ask him about it, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:15:26] ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: House Democrats are reportedly drafting their own plan for border security. As a Republican source tells CNN, the president though is in no mood to cave. House Majority Whip James Clyburn suggests the Democrats could give the president the $5.7 billion that he's been asking for, but just not for a physical wall.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JAMES CLYBURN (D-SC), MAJORITY WHIP: If his $5.7 billion is about border security, then we see ourselves fulfilling that request, only doing what I like to call using a smart wall.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: All right. Joining us now is that number three Democrat, Congressman James Clyburn of South Carolina.

Good morning, Congressman.

CLYBURN: Good morning. Thanks for having me.

CAMEROTA: Thank you for being here.

I want to start with the breaking news, in case people are just waking up and tuning in, and that is that overnight, the president announced that he will acquiesce, I guess is the word, or agree to Nancy Pelosi's argument that he will not give the State of the Union on Tuesday night. He will not give it until the shutdown is over.

I want your thoughts on how we got here from yesterday where we knew he was looking for alternate venues and not giving up.

CLYBURN: Well, I welcome that. And I thank the president for really doing what I think is best for the country. And that is for us to get this issue settled, settled now, get people back to work now. Let's start negotiations over what we should do to secure our southern border and then deliver to the American people what the State of the Union will be like at that time.

I don't think doing the State of the Union before those two things are done will make any real sense. We know what the State of the Union is right now. It is chaotic. It is catastrophic for a lot of American families.

So, let's get that behind us. And then all of us will be in a good mood to listen to the president's understanding of the State of the Union and hopefully, he'll be in a good enough mood to deliver it to our understanding.

CAMEROTA: Well, Congressman, I want to ask you about that. You say that you thank the president. Last night in his tweet, the president said this is Nancy Pelosi's prerogative.

Is it me or am I hearing a thawing in the sort of combative language that's been used for the past 33 days? Is something happening today that you think something has shifted and we are about to see some sort of break in the impasse?

CLYBURN: I really hope so. As you know I'm from South Carolina. I kind of live by my state's motto, as I breathe, I hope. And so, I woke up this morning and heard about that tweet concerning the president's position on the State of the Union, I did feel a bit more hopeful. And I remain a bit more hopeful.

I have said all along we are not going to argue with the president about numbers. What we are trying to come to a conclusion as to how best to secure the border efficiently, effectively. And I like to say humanely because I really believe we ought to work on our ports of entry. We ought to have additional ports of entry.

I think those ports ought to be welcoming and positioned and equipped in such a way to have the resources, manpower as well as the infrastructure that's need for that to be welcomed. CAMEROTA: Well, I mean, Congressman, look, as you know, the devil is

in the details. And so, yesterday, what you told reporters is that you supported various kinds of new border security, drones, new technology, more immigration judges, more border patrol agents. And you would be willing to spend $5.7 billion on it. That's the number the president asked for to build his wall.

So, you call it a smart wall.

CLYBURN: Yes.

CAMEROTA: He calls it a barrier. But he has been very steadfast in there needing to be a physical barrier. So, it seems like that's still the sticking point.

CLYBURN: Now, it is a sticking point, because why do you need a physical barrier of what I like to call a concrete edifice when if you are really about securing the border, let's listen to the experts.

[08:20:05] I have been talking about the smart wall. And if you indulge me, I said I want to see a wall so high we can use drones and you would never get over it and so wide you can use x-ray equipment and not be able to get around it, and so deep that you can use sensors to keep anybody from tunneling under it.

Now, to me, how we accomplish that requires technology, not concrete barriers. And I believe that that's where most Democrats are.

CAMEROTA: Well, but, Congressman, the president has backed off the concrete barrier. The president no longer calls it a concrete wall. He's backed off the thousand miles that he started with. Now, it's something like 234.

So, I guess I'm just wondering that can you all maybe make a concession and say, OK, a barrier of some kind. You have agreed to fencing in the past.

CLYBURN: Well, the first order of business is to put people back to work. I really believe that Democrats would be in a better mood and I think the Republicans, you know, we had ten Republicans vote with us yesterday on re-opening the government. We're going to have another continuing resolution up today on homeland security. Hopefully, there will be more Republicans will be coming our way.

I believe there is an outside chance that the Senate will get to a good number which would be 60 to do something today in the Senate.

CAMEROTA: But you think one of the bills is going to pass. You think that one of the ones they will be voting on today is going to hit 60 votes?

CLYBURN: No, what I said, I am hopeful. Do I think it would pass? I'm not thinking it will. I am hopeful that it will.

CAMEROTA: OK. Because, I mean, what we have heard from people on the ground is that it's not expected to pass. I like your hope, of course. But it may not be realistic or it might be misplaced. So, if it doesn't, if neither of the options pass today, what is the plan today? How will you move it forward?

CLYBURN: Well, that's the Senate today. The House will vote today to see homeland security. I hope all of us, if the Senate were to fail to get 60, I'm hopeful that the House and the Senate staffs will come together on what kind of opening we can have that would be a re- opening of our government. And then we will then be able to sit down and reach what the barrier would be, whether it's aluminum or steel slats or my idea of a smart wall. That's to go into the negotiations.

I really don't believe that can be done here today. The experts need to weigh in. I have no idea what the experts will say about the propriety of steel --

CAMEROTA: Yes.

CLYBURN: -- or slats or what I call electronic walls or a smart wall. We listen to the experts on that to advise us as to how to best secure the border. That's what we want to do.

CAMEROTA: Congressman James Clyburn, we will be watching very closely. Thank you for being on NEW DAY and spelling out your idea for how to stop this.

CLYBURN: Thank you very much.

CAMEROTA: John?

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: All right. U.S. diplomats are being kicked out of Venezuela with a deadly uprising under way and President Trump taking sides. More on what's at stake, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:27:49] BRIGGS: A violent power struggle playing out in Venezuela. Opposition leader Juan Guaido swore himself in as president, declaring their President Nicolas Maduro was unconstitutionally sworn in for a second term. President Trump and other world leaders recognizing Guaido as the nation's legitimate president.

Joining us now is Ian Bremmer. He's the president and founder of Eurasia group and editor at large at "TIME".

If we can put up some of the pictures to the demonstrations yesterday, because I think that is what really sends the message that something is going on, something very, very big is going on in Venezuela right now.

And, Ian, what's great about having you here is you can help us understand what this mean, what is the significance of the fact that the president of the United States, along with several other nations have just recognized an opposition leader as the legitimate president of this country?

IAN BREMMER, PRESIDENT & FOUNDER, EURASIA GROUP: Not the first time we have seen demonstrations of this scale in Venezuela, but they have been put down harshly, right? Repressed brutality, a lot of innocent civilians killed by the Venezuelan military. Yesterday, the military was still out in force, they were closing down highways, they were even making it harder for these guys to turn out. They are completely supporting the Maduro administration.

But the fact that you have much of the international community in the Western Hemisphere with the major exception of Mexico, with the Americans, the Canadians, the Brazilians, others, all saying the legitimate government is the opposition. The guy that was speaking there yesterday, that's a big deal, because that means the opposition has someone to rally behind.

And it also means we have a bunch of embassies, the Americans and others, in Venezuela that are now thought to be, said to be illegal by the Maduro administration. And what's going to happen in the next 72 hours is they tell us we need to leave.

CAMEROTA: That is the question, because they have said that we need to get our diplomats out and President Trump has or the State Department has said, no, we are legitimately there. So, what is going to happen in this?

BREMMER: I think the importance of the Americans and others recognizing this leader is that it makes it much harder for the Venezuelan government to arrest him. They have detained him briefly before, but they let him go. So, it's hard for them to really crack down and destroy the opposition as a consequence of this.

But let's recognize that the Americans that are in this embassy are now, in principle in three days and counting in harm's way, right? I mean, yes --